The job market sucks for mid-career folks
8 years of experience at a small firm. Been job hunting for a director/vp level role since March. Got into a few final rounds but haven't been able to land anything. There seem to be virtually no acquisitions/investment jobs. It’s been a tough year. Looking for advice and potential career paths to pivot into.
It’s definitely a rough spot to be in. Firms will always need analysts & associates to do the grunt work, but you rarely need more than a handful of upper mid level guys, especially at the 8 to 10 year mark where they have all of the experience to run their own deals but typically don’t have the capital to do so. Plus we’re coming off a legendary run where way more people came into the industry than is typical and they all have the same stellar resume. Just sucks.
My advice is to try and keep your head up, use this time to consider if you truly want to pivot careers or if you’re just frustrated, and be open to unexpected opportunities. Sometimes taking one step back to take two steps forward in order to change product types, or markets, or roles can work out too.
There’s a ton of us out here dealing with this right now.
Even right before the market turned, I had a feeling that only knowing cookie-cutter multifamily at the asset level was not going to serve me in the long run. I was taking my time to explore other potential options to see what interests me so that I could eventually make a pivot. Then the market turned, and I realized the time to pivot was yesterday. Been thinking about more of a generalist role at a lifeco type of firm, private credit, and even getting a mba to help fill skill gaps.
I am curious why more people came into the industry than is typical?
Commercial real estate as a whole had an all time legendary run from the end of the great recession to about a year ago. Interest rates were non existent, cap rates were comically low, and rents were growing so fast you could blow your budget and still out-perform your underwriting. When there is that much money being made, people flock to the industry.
I suggest you land the best job you can for now even if it's not your ideal job and maybe the pay will suck. Keep looking for a mid-level deal role if you are set on it, but you can't count on it so you might as well keep your skills sharp, minimize a gap on your resume, and start bringing money in again.
Many of us will find our careers in real estate will not be as financially rewarding compared to the past and the future opportunities aren't going to be as glamorous as we expected. We just need to live with the reality we find ourselves in today.
Been looking for associate level roles too (limited openings too) the only openings out there are mostly analyst roles. Networking conversations have been helpful, except most groups simply don't have the budget right now.
Just keep trucking. It’s a really hard market. At 8-10 years of experience, a 7 month job search is not that long. There are less VP / Director roles out there and most firms are not investing at the moment (causing even less jobs to be available).
What do you currently do?
Multifamily acquisitions. Been considering pivoting to a different product type or pivoting to a finance type of career, but pivoting is tough even for associate level roles since my skillset is limited to one product type.
What don’t you like about multifamily? And what are you hoping to get out of a different product type?
What part of the country do you cover?
west coast
What are even VP+ interviews like? Fit and comparing Rolodex ?
My experience is the mid-level, VP-type interview is largely, 'Can this guy talk the talk the way we do and generally a cultural fit? Does he parrot the same lingo / talking points that we do when we're talking about the same thing?'
At VP-level, you have a decent-length work history in the same/similar space as the interviewer, so they already have a pretty good sense of what your work experience.
Find a firm you really want to work at, and drop to being an associate there.
Join the club. I'm associate level and have been searching since December.
Been searching since May and close to sleeping in my car.
It's very rough. I just talked to a friend who runs acquisitions at a small shop that recently posted for an analyst level role with a 0-2 year experience prerequisite and told me they got a ton of applications from people with 7-10+ years experience who's last title was VP/Director....
Yikes....maybe they were really "directors"? Sometimes there are people who rise up and don't have any good experience.
They’re usually not expecting to come in as an analyst, but flagging interest from their seat in case there’s a desire to bring someone on with more experience. Many cases of firms who go to market looking for one level and end up hiring for a more experienced role due to liking the candidate.
Be ruthless in applying. These young people don’t have the work experience or ethic to hustle. Try a different approach different department what ever. I went from sales to travelling all over Europe to corporate finance to trading back to sales to now corp development of my own firm. U meet people ask what’s happening and dig in. There’s always reinvention in this. U have to have grit. Learn new skills sharpen old relationships. There’s lots out there. Just have to dig in. Good luck.
I mean, maybe part of the problem is the assumption that your career is a constant upwards trajectory in terms of responsibility and pay?
At the end of the day there are only so many senior roles that don't entail taking considerable entrepreneurial risk. There is naturally going to be a point at which the funnel tightens, and why would any of the people in those senior roles ever leave? If you're the kind of person who wants to make half a million dollars with carry, and isn't interested in starting your own shop, then you're going to sit in that role forever. So it's hardly surprising there aren't many opportunities for you to move there, no matter what the market conditions are.
Why is staying where you are not an option? Sounds like you don't like "cookie cutter MF" but that's an enormous asset class. Why do you think that a more specialized role will offer more opportunities?
It sounds like you want someone to offer you an cool, fulfilling job tailored to your interests that pays a ton of guaranteed money and also has a ton of upside if things go well. That's very much a problem of expectation and not of opportunity
The firm I was with closed down...and you are right about the expectations part. At the same time, I see where the reality is and am trying to figure out what my next step could be now that I'm starting over. I don't want to rush into another role when I don't even know if I liked the path that I was on. I want to take the time to find a career where I can learn some real skills. Multifamily isn't that difficult, so the space became overly saturated, just look at what happened in 21/22. I really want to find one thing that I can be really good at. could be a more specialized product type or could be entity-level transactions, I just don't know what that is at this moment in time. Despite all the stress and frustration, I'm glad that I hit this wall now instead of later in my career.
The industry really perpetually underpays people. I think the reason for this is there is always a pipeline of people that want to get into the industry and will get paid by "experience" with the delusion that they can one day go out and do their own thing.
The reality of this is that most people either can't, or won't do this, and really the tides are working against this anyways with how much more institutional real estate investing has become over the years. Not to say this is impossible, I just don't think it is in the cards for 90+% of the people working in RE. By the way, this is true of any other industry, I have no idea why people in real estate buy into this bull shit - it's not like principals are taking time out of there day to teach armature classes on syndicating, or how to network with HNW.
So that brings us to a depressed wage market for most all entry to mid-level roles (associate, senior associate, asset/dev manager etc.). These positions should be paid more money, and there should be a tract for staying in these positions for a larger portion of your career, they're the backbone of any good RE firm, they do the dirty grunt work that, lets be honest, most principals can no longer do (assuming they ever could). Here is a fun exercise, go to the BLS website and plug your salary in from 2019 and see how much the buying power has decreased in the last 5 years, and that's assuming the BS CPI basket the fed uses (less than 2% inflation for 10 years my ass), is accurate.
We are living in truly shit times as employees.
Is it just that the industry is saturated nowadays? Maybe early career folks should think about other industries?
Yes, I think folks early in there career should definitely be thinking about that (not even necessary related to this specific topic or industry). I think the problem with RE is the boom/bust nature of the business. I just don't see the commensurate return compared to other industries that are more stable. For example riding the tech wave in the 2010s made a lot of people millionaires. I personally know 5-6 people who made huge money from this. I know a few people in medical sales that make $500K/yr now, and as long as they hold their accounts, they will make this money in perpetuity. I know some folks in lumber sales pulling in these same types of numbers. On the other hand I don't know anyone in the 22-35 bucket that has made anything close to that in RE.
That being said, my advice is always do what you are interested in and good at. There will always be money for those that are. I will say though, people who genuinely love real estate and are good at it, are likely in that 10% I mentioned that are going on to start there own shop, or be a principal at an established place.
This is awful advice
It’s probably never been easier to start a company in Real Estate. Institutional capital has only made it easier to start a company as raising capital is more efficient then ever before AND institutional capital is largely looking to do projects with local partners.
You just do not have what it takes which many don’t in this business.
This is a very hard business only meant for people who are mentally tough. My advice to many on here is to suck it up and keep moving forward. If you want to be in this business for the long term you have to deal with the cyclical nature of the business. If you can not deal with that go to another industry.
I am speaking from experience too
I think we generally agree on that it takes a certain tenacity to go out on your own, and it's not in the cards for most people, and they might be better off looking into different career paths. I'm glad to hear you were successful, maybe you can share your journey here for myself and some of the folks commenting here?
We could debate the pros and cons of institutions in real estate an a blanket statement here that this is bad is incorrect, you are right there are pros here. I'm not really sure if this changes the rest of the calculus on my point here but interested to hear more thoughts.
Its never been easier?? This is maybe the hardest time to raise money in the past 20 years, and as a new operator? Whose signing guarantees? Not your institutional capital partner. Not only that, their yield and return requirements are far off what is achievable, and guarantee as a new operator your not getting looks on those deals.
Agreed. I was laid off last March 2023 and got something at the Director level at a mid size developer as part of the investments team. Just keeping my head down while we get through this rut
I wanted to leave a while ago…got an exciting offer at another company and stayed. Only to be underpaid, overworked. Left for another job only to be underpaid YET again… I’m not sure how to pivot at this point in my career. At least if you slaved away in investment banking or mgmt consulting there are many industries you can pivot into. RE is so niche - you can’t just do anything.
meanwhile my friends in tech/pharma had much better lifestyles, much better comp and are enjoying their bigger apts/ homes and better WLB. Screw RE - they make it sound like you’re destined to make a lot. But I’ve seen so many amazingly brilliant people get tossed out, abused and scammed out of bonuses/promote. Only the partners do well and when times are tough they grind you and take your bonus. It doesn’t reward loyalty, or sometimes even performance. I’ve seen some absolute manipulative moves to push people out.
if I were graduating now or in BSchool, I’d say look into different industries.
Hit the Nail on the Head. Anything other than a Megafund or some place that raises funds won't pay well. Banks pay okay, but lower than other corporate banking comp.
I have had small stints because I have been underpaid close to what my actual knowledge is. I had to slightly pivot to get paid pretty decent compensation, but at slightly lower title.
TBH even those who raise funds don’t pay you well at all times. They might have a lot of of overhead, or did fee breaks to get investors into new funds, etc. There is always an excuse.
meanwhile people in ad sales are making money hand over fist…and working 9-5. With the occasional evening, which really involves wining and dining clients.
What did you pivot into?
Yup, it does suck. I’m solidly mid-career and I feel like I’ve gotten the same year of experience for the last 5 years. I look occasionally to see what’s out there and it’s a desert. Of the jobs that are available, almost all of them pay less than I currently make and require 5 days on-site. I’m not going back to that. My current role allows me the flexibility to work where I want and have plenty of free time for hobbies (rare in RE). If I stay employed I can probably ride it out and retire before 50, but from a career perspective I am bored and just going through the motions. I would love to find something more interesting.
Also as another poster mentioned, pay in general has stagnated over the last 5 years - my inflation adjusted compensation is below where it was in 2019. Very demotivating. Even if you have a lot of hustle, there are limited opportunities. If I was younger I would choose something else with more room to grow and a generally higher ceiling of knowledge/skill development, while pursuing any passions for RE on the side. There certainly are good, interesting, high paying jobs in RE, but they are few and far between. Hopefully the tides change soon.
This post speaks loudly for me too. I feel like as an AVP, I’m stuck in the middle. I feel like the last year I’ve barely had anything to do aside from busy work and bullshit. I have no visibility in my role. It’s tough, and I sometimes wish I was a garden variety FP&A guy.
I am actually glad to see so many people talking about pivoting to different industries
It means we are closer to the end of the cycle. When people start quitting you know the cycle is following its normal course
If you are thinking of pivoting…leave now. You simply are not cut out for this industry. Good luck in your next venture. You will always regret leaving Real Estate though. I know tons of people who pivoted out of real estate during the GFC and all of them greatly regretted it. I did not and am far better off for it.
The irony is everyone here sounds so depressed when everyone I know is FIRED up given cycles always create great opportunities.
The damn will burst soon enough but again if you are thinking of quitting you never had what it took to survive this business in the first place.
we are talking about companies not paying well...not that they can't hack it. What are you 12?
Agreed - when you start to see the amount of hours put in not commensurate with comp, benefits or job security...you really start to question what it's all for.
You will never ever make that much money working for other people in Real Estate. The only people who make money in real estate are the ones who take risk.
News flash, you will also really never make that much money working for anyone else regardless of the industry. The only way to make good money is working for yourself.
Complaining about not making that much money working for someone else is so stupid.
You do not deserve a lot of money if you work for someone else in real estate as you are not taking any risk and your skills are easily replaceable.
If you have skills that are not replaceable well you would be smart enough to recognize that and go off on your own.
all of @rickkane's posts are trash
Actually no
I understand the game as well as anyone and just trying to help people play it
Cycle bottom indicator flashing
real estate isn't going as high as it was the past few years. You can't just leverage a 4 cap with 3.5% financing. You will need actual capital in place and a business plan. Not saying it won't be a strong asset, but you can only get so much blood out of a stone.
This applies to all asset classes. Low interest rates inflate asset values. They inflated VC backed startups, real estate, fine art, etc. Many of these are at the bottom of the cycle. It won't be a quick bounce back from lower interest rates in the future. Our industry and many others needs to come up with new business strategies, trim the fat, and find ways to create value outside of interest rate decreases. I think there is plenty of material to work with...too many real estate companies have relied on interest rate decreases for their gains in the past 15 years...lots of low hanging fruit to increase performance in other ways. Not that it will be easy but at my company I can think of a half dozen major improvements we need to make.
Interesting the S&P 500 is not at bottom and valuations are looking very rich right now....without the AI hype and excitement, we would not be at all time highs. Berkshire Hathaway has $325B cash pile because they can't find anything to invest in right now at a good basis.
For everyone talking about tech or med device sales. I got news….it ain't a picnic. My sister in law was at AWS, working with in business development with high growth tech companies. She made great money but her hours were very long and stress was super high. When interest rates increased…her whole division was laid off. Didn't matter she was a top performer. Everyone was let go, she was just a number. She is the best interviewer I know, so she quickly got a job doing SaaS sales…company lied to her about the territory, jacked up the quotas so that getting a bonus was hard, and her boss was creepy. So she left. All her old colleagues want to leave AWS too, quotas were increased there too, so people are making alot less while still busting their ass. Outside of AI, tech is tough right now.
My best friend’s wife has done well at medical device sales, makes more than her attorney husband. But she grinds hard and her company isn’t doing well. She doesn’t think she has a big future there and they have a 10 month old, so starting her own distributorship would be a big risk and a huge initial cut to their income. She has to make doctors like her, cater to their whims, and deal with the patients too now her in role. Its alot.
Sure your not wrong here nowhere is perfect. I think most industries are in the toilet today, no hiding from that. I think the juxtaposition here, is whether other industries have better upside for a W2 employee, said differently do people working in RE have the same potential for a boom during a good market, (obviously RE is as bad or worse than what you are describing).
The question to me, is if you are early in your career, and we are coming out of the cycle what kind of money can you expect to make over the next 7-10 years? Do you have a $500/$1M dollar check potentially coming your way, is there a better place to be to make this a reality (hours put in, and potential payout wise)?
I don't know the answer here, but based on my anecdotal experience, I don't know a single person in the 35 range who's made life changing money in RE, however, I've seen a decent few in the tech (or other) industry's who did (might not sustain in the next cycle, who knows). Do the big pay outs come in your 40-50s for RE? When do you see enough money to even consider going out on your own? If it's in your 40/50s is the juice even worth the squeeze at that point, or should you just save until your 50s/early 60s and retire more modestly? Do you even care enough about RE or work in 10-15 years, and want to go out on your own, have your priorities changed by the point it's feasible? If you choose RE did you just waste 10-15 years working for peanuts for no pay off?
I fully accept that I might be wrong here, but I need some people here to chime in with some evidence otherwise. How did the folks who went out on there own do it, did they make big pay checks for that to happen, what's the path forward for people here?
What is life changing money for you? I know plenty of people in including myself younger than 35 making $400k - $600k in cash comp and have promote that likely worth a few million in 5-7 years. The key with the promote is that it stacks up and pays out every 2-3 years so you could in theory be getting that consistently.
Curious (for people not working and who could wait it out a little) if you could take a job you’re not jazzed about now…would you do that vs waiting until Q1 and Q2 2025, when hiring might pick up.
It depends why I'm not jazzed about it. If i liked the role itself enough but it was lacking in pay, i'd probably take it. For all other reasons I'd probably pass and keep looking. There will probably be a lot more opportunities that come up in q1 and q2 of 2025 but i don't expect the offers to be substantially better than what you could get right now. So many people have been laid off in the last two years in the industry that i'm sure there are many still waiting on the sidelines so I still expect the job market to be somewhat employer favorable,
For reference, I've been out of work looking for the last couple of months. I haven't gotten any offers so far. I am still searching right now but after the holidays more opportunities should come up. I'm keeping my fingers crossed to be working again no later than the end of February. I do want to move out of the industry but right now a career change is too costly to do without a steady paycheck in place.
That’s fair. In the same boat. Recruiters seem more optimistic about 2025 and it does seem like there has been a small uptick in roles posted (still not many for mid-level folks)…but hard to say if it will be much better until say 2026. People expected 2024 to be better and it really wasn’t. Fundraising was still tough, still a lot of problematic deals, and transactions were muted. Obviously interest rates had a lot to do with it.
Burning through savings right now. I was pickier about roles earlier this year, but now I'm more compelled to settle for something cuz openings are not increasing. Heard from recruiters that some funds are gearing up for early next year, but who actually knows...plus there is a ton of talent competing for the same openings
Hiring is not picking up anytime soon
Real Estate is over employeed right now and the cuts are going to be big next year
Take any job you can get or stay in whatever you have
Agree, can't imagine there is a lot of hiring until long bonds go down, which is all dependent on inflation expectations. Could be a rough year or two in terms of hiring if rates remain elevated and we see extend and pretend or slow capitulation.
dude the yields on treasuries just right sided themselves 2-3 months ago, which is what it should be. long dated maturity bonds should be trading at a higher yield than short term
Irrespective of flattening/inverting, US government is borrowing at 4.3-4.6% depending where you are on yield curve. Real estate borrowers need to offer lenders a premium to that, the arithmetic is devastating. No need to sugar coat.
Yes, the 10 yr should have been trading higher. Fed cut and 10 yr rose and now the fed is backing off of cuts. A lot of re companies were counting on fed cuts which in their mind would lower the 10 yr, which we know isn't necessarily the case. Not only are a lot of loans in trouble if rates dont come down, but you also have corporate debt that needs to be refinanced at high levels > could lead to more layoffs.
Why does the fed cutting rates make the 10 yr go higher?
Probably has to do with the bond market thinking the fed cutting is a mistake and will juice the economy and cause inflation to rise- thus the increase in yield needed by bond investors. The bond market can tighten for the fed. But now the 10 yr has dropped back to 4.2. Wonder if we trade between 3.6-4.5 until a recession or if inflation picks up.
DJT election / republican sweep (and resulting policies) increase inflation according to the market.
Another important point is that Treasury has been disproportionately issuing short-term securities, trying to keep 10-year yield lower (for political reasons). At some point, that policy will have to be reversed. Charles Gasparino (of the New York Post) recently reported on the issue in one of his columns.
Curious to hear about the Canadians out there given the much smaller markets and labor competition we're facing. What do you think this industry will be like in 10 years?
The real estate market won't come back to the same levels as the past 10 years. Here is why that is a good thing. Few people knew how to actually create value, which is what real estate is about. Everyone was buying 4-5 caps with 2-3% debt, which is just positive leverage. You could just keep buying and things would go up without knowing what you are doing. Now the industry will have to be creative on how to add value in deals.
I want to point out, for old school owners, buying a "stabilized" buildings often times was purchased with negative leverage with financing. Until the 2000s, you could never really buy prime real estate without having a value-add plan. This is honestly one of the reasons real estate has paid so poorly compared to finance in general. The capital was more important than the business plan, and workers were just cogs. Hopefully wages pick up in the next 10 years as talent to make the returns becomes more important.
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