UK Universities - Not Worth It Anymore
Time for a rant. As someone who did both their UG and PG education in the UK at a semi-target and target respectively, I can confidently say that I know the system well and am familiar with the quality of the education. UK universities, especially target ones, have a high educational standard and, for the most part, equip you with a broad knowledge base to start your career or pursue further studies. This was all at a time when EU annual tuition fees were £9,000. I was taking a look around some university websites and post-Brexit annual tuition fees have skyrocketed to £25,000-30,000.
Since most people looking to start their university career on this forum will likely end up choosing a STEM subject, I would like to issue a piece of advice. For those subjects, doing an UG in the UK is not worth it anymore. Not at those price. £9,000 was already steep compared to other EU countries, but £25,000+ is an absolute joke considering the quality of alternatives EU students have.
Whilst I can see this post get its fair share of MS or potentially sceptics asking questions, et me clarify some questions I would have as a prospective EU UG student:
- What about brand name? Can other EU universities rival places like Oxbridge/LSE? Yes and no. For anything related to business, places like Bocconi, HEC, IE, ESADE and other notable EU business schools that run English UG programs are a suitable replacement. They'll help you land similar opportunities as places like LSE. Oxbridge is quite unique and likely doesn't have comparisons in the EU. But if you're going to spend that much, you might as well do your UG at a top name in the US which will be comparable in cost
- What about the quality of education? How is the level of English for English UG degree taught outside the UK? High. All places mentioned above (and many more) have very high quality courses taught by qualified people from industry and academia. The level of English is also not an issue. 10 years ago doing a UG taught in English at Bocconi or other EU university may have been a struggle. Now, the level of language quality has drastically improved and the only difference you have to a UK university is a bit of an accent. Also, a significant number of professors in UK universities are not from the UK and their level of English is still good enough.
- What about recruitment? Won't being in London give me better chances at landing an IB/MC role here? Not necessarily. Each year, MBBs, T2s and IBs in London have intakes of students from all over the EU and the world. It's not issue to fly out for interviews - hundreds of potential candidates do so every year. Hell, I landed my first job flying back and forth from mainland Europe to London.
- What about doing a Masters in the UK? This depends entirely on you. Whilst EU fees for PG degrees have gone up compared to UK fees, the difference is much less than the UG disparity. It may still be worth it depending on where you went to UG and what your end goal is.
I've lived in the UK for most of my life and have loved everything this country has offered so far. But recently, the government has handled important matters (Brexit, COVID-19, Immigration, Trade) in such fucked up ways that I want to provide a reality check for students still drawn to the fake allure of a UK UG education.
If anyone has specific questions about particular background, individual universities or certain courses they were planning to take feel free to leave a comment and I can answer publicly or via PM.
In terms of top UG costs in UK being similar to top UG costs in US, that’s quite inaccurate AFAIK.
You seem to consider this through a European lens. For internationals, the UK is now much more attractive as an option. Tuition for us is unchanged but now we get the benefit of not having to prove we’re better than any EU candidates when applying for jobs. We also get a 2-year visa as soon as we graduate from a UK program.
From a worldview standpoint I’m against Brexit, though it’s undoubtedly a good thing for many people outside of the EU.
The problem however is that, in the long run, the financial world in the UK will shrink to the benefit of the EU. For an ever-smaller number of spots, Brits will have the priority over internationals, the latter of whom won't be able to fall back to the continental financial centers given that they do not have an EU education and do not speak the language/have the right visas. So at the end of the day, not much will change for Brits given that London finance will grow more centered on the UK (and less on the EU), and not much will change for Europeans either given that France/Germany/Switzerland will see their financial sector grow to cover continental Europe. So Brits and Europeans won't lose - internationals will, hence why a UK education won't be as attractive for them
I agree
Harvard costs ~$49K per year for UG, Stanford costs ~$18.4K. Costs are highly comparable and they frankly don't make sense for EU students.
pretty sure that stanford number is covid adjusted and isn't their typical rate.
EDIT: actually I'm wrong... it's quarterly tuition so have to 3x that 18k figure to get 54k
Agree for EU students
I agree for EU students, there is no point paying up to three times the tuition for the exact same service. However, there are EU residents who actively look for a route into the UK because they like the culture/people/country/.. - these will probably pay up if they believe that a UK based education has advantages compared to EU universities (I don't have a comparison, just saying that some people will believe this).
A few of my friends went to absolute no-name schools in Europe (for free) and they had no chance of a career in the UK, even though that was the plan initially. There are advantages to studying in the country you want to work/live in.
Purely from a financial perspective - US schools look great if you account for reduced tuition (covid), FX (dollar weaker than before), and fewer internationals going to the US than before for various reasons (visa issues being one of them).
Agree for EU students, providing they aren't of the London or bust mindset. I also haven't seen many non-Italian undergrads at Bocconi, non-French at HEC, non-Swedish at SSE, etc., breaking in to London (and apparently English speaking internships in Paris and Milan are pretty difficult too). If you're a native in a country with a strong school like those mentioned, however, I would choose them even over UK targets. The difference in costs simply isn't worth it.
What about those who don't want to study finance/economics/business at undergraduate though? If you look at the London intake for analyst classes, about half studied a subject that isn't one of the above three. Europe's (albeit non-EU, but same fee status) top STEM institution is unquestionably ETH Zurich. It's probably comparable to Imperial or Cambridge, but you rarely ever see people from there breaking into London banking. On the humanities/social sciences side, look at somewhere like Sciences Po - basically the French equivalent of Oxford or LSE but very rarely will place into London finance. Those who do break into London finance almost always seem to have studied a directly related undergrad (or completed multiple internships and a business school masters). If you study Classics at Oxford, NatSci at Cambridge, Biochemistry at Imperial, IR at LSE, PPE at UCL, or Maths at Warwick, you'll still be reasonably competitive for London.
Re. the US, I would agree for the top schools. Those I know who took UK targets over top US schools have generally regretted it. Obviously, time (three years versus four) and academic focus (versus the liberal arts education) are still factors though.
I generally agree with your comment, however, this made me laugh:
No one, not even in France, thinks that. You don't see them represented because Sciences Po isn't a target. You do however see plenty of HEC grads, arguably the French Oxford/LSE
I meant in an academic/prestige sense, rather than in a target sense. While I didn't explicitly say it in my answer, non-finance/economics/business Europeans recruiting in continental Europe seem to have a far harder time than non-relevant degrees in London, which is why it probably isn't a target for banking even in Paris - whereas obviously HEC is. But based on the quality of the university, I had the perception that it was broadly equivalent prestige-wise to somewhere like LSE and potentially slightly better for French social sciences/humanities. I might be wrong though.
Bocconi is full of Germans and Austrians. I agree that places like HEC or SSE do not have many non-natives (although I've seen plenty of non-Danish at CBS), but perhaps that was because it made sense to come to the UK with relatively comparable fees. I truly believe there will be more of a shift with these new fees. Also, people coming from notable EU STEM schools such as ETH Zurich, EPFL, Milan Polytechnic and TUM Munich do end up breaking into IB but mainly in their home countries. With this new fee level a lot of the people who were planning on pursuing STEM subjects in the UK to break into London IB may still land a job there, but move their studies to one of these places.
Oxbridge is still way above any European business school.
With this tuition rise I would rather attend Bocconi / HEC than LSE taking into account the costs. Nevertheless, LSE would be my next pick by far if you want to break into IB.
But see? You already put 2 options ahead and put LSE 3rd. Pre-Brexit fees you may have put LSE as number 1.
Pre brexit Oxbridge would still be my first choice, thats not going to change anytime soon
Post-brexit I take into account tuition costs and that's why LSE instead of being my next pick goes as my 5th pick
Lol
I still believe there is a difference from LSE/Oxbridge and all the other European names you've mentioned.
Only HEC/Bocconi could compare for London position in terms of ease to get in IMO.
Now that the fees are insanely high for UK UG, maybe it's worth taking a look (according to personal finances are not an issue), as the competition might be weaker for entry?
I may be wrong, so enlighten me.
This could be true for competition from the EU where immigration has dropped off significantly anyway (due to Brexit and pandemic).
But, international immigration to the UK has increased, including enrollment into universities.
So it would be useful to check admission numbers going forward and see how everything pans out. I also believe that if someone can afford to study in the UK, the competition is weaker than before (internationals don't have EU languages as an example).
As other posters have mentioned, many students would prefer UK over US because of the visa situation in the US. From a financial perspective, I think it's important to consider that uni is only 3 years in the UK but it's 4 in the US.
Italian student, probably admitted either to ESCP (I would do first year in London, not paying more tuitions because ESCP is a European university) and Bocconi (in Milan) for the next academic year starting in September. Based on your experience, which university do you think would be better? I really love London and would like to do some years there working after this Master (IB or BCG, Mckinsey, Bain). Feel free to reach me out. Thank you.
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