Hit a brickwall with prop trading/HFT firms
Hi,
I am looking for some advice please.
I am 35 computer networks engineer with 2:2 from a low ranking UK university. 2 years ago, I start doing some work learning python/maths and developing trading strategies to learn about quant trading hoping to land a role at a prop/MM firm. I have now applied to about 50 firms (all prop trading/HFT/MM) and did not get an interview offer from any firm at all !
So the question is, what can I do to improve chances of get even a first interview. It seems personal trading experience makes zero impact on my job application.
My research concludes, unless I have a degree from one of the top 10 universities, there is probably no chance.
But then my 2:2 degree is also a hurdle in getting into a top uni (for an MSc) that these firms like. So the only way for me is to go for something like MSc in applied math from a lower tier uni hoping to get into an top MSc later So in total its about 2-3 years worth of effort which I don't mind doing but I am not sure if that would be even sufficient for these firms as I suspect these firms mostly prefer young(er) fresh graduates.
Do you think this is a viable route ? Or anything else I can do to stand out as an applicant ?
Any advice will be greatly appreciated !
Thanks
Sorry man, you're a bit old for this industry now and unless you have a systematic strategy that you can pitch to a fund of funds or someone who can help bootstrap you with capital to really build up a track record using something systematic and not purely discretionary you will not be able to break into this industry anymore. The only way is to go back and get a Masters degree in a STEM subject, preferably CS, leave your graduation dates/ages off, and apply as a new graduate post-grad school. I would be more focused on what you can do to get into a good master's program rather than how to get into trading because like I said unless you have a track record or a systematic strategy printing money it's difficult to break in at that age with no S&T experience. Maybe if you had work experience in SWE but I don't think your background is solid enough.
Your plan of going to a lower tier MSc and then transferring to a better one is solid and can probably lead you into some buy-side quant roles if it's good enough.
Thanks ! much appreciated
I should have mentioned, as a trader, I only have interest in high frequency strategies in which you can test ideas quickly, i.e. you implement something and you will know quickly whether you have an edge or not as opposed to long term plays which are relatively high likely to suffer from overfitting etc.
Now the issue is, these kind of strategies are not viable at independent level, I mean I am not looking to compete with large firms trying to win ultra low latency battles but I would be even be happy if I was able to do something like 'semi-HFT' where I can place large number of trades on a daily basis as opposed to directional bets with holding periods of days/weeks.
I have tried to go down this route of independent trader but when I started, I severely underestimated how difficult it is to find people who are actually competent and are willing to help you. The people who are competent, its hard to get hold of them for advice as they are busy/get too many such requests for help/don't want to risk thier NDA's etc and the ones who are willing to talk to you are only doing to so because they cannot beat the markets themselves and have books/courses to sell.
Do you have any advice for independent route of semi HFT type strategies ? Is that something viable ?
Thanks again !
Don't ignore longer term strategies. Very doable to consistently outperform with a much longer-term view though you're right overfitting is a concern. Just backtest rigorously. Not saying it's the answer, but don't cut anything out this early in your career.
Uh to be honest man like easy answer is go do some crypto stuff and you can easily do the high frequency stuff. Otherwise you're telling me you only have an interest in HFT trading and are aware you can't compete against the systematic quant firms and asking if you'll ever be able to get relevant experience to break in - in which the answer is no.
Go play around in crypto where the big systematic shops are slower to enter or there's so much fragmented liquidity you can be a top market maker on one of the random CLOB dexes that some of the more systematic crypto-native shops aren't involved in right now. If anything the spreads are wide there so definitely some money to be made. Prior to joining Akuna I was a spot market maker on a bunch of random protocols < 10M TVL and making a few thousand a month. I tried to look at the more illiquid alt coins on random exchanges and be a market-maker on those so I wasn't competing against the big guys with tons of capital and better technology and it worked decently in 2019 and 2020.
Like trust me, I would also not help some random 35 year old guy build institutional grade strategies - there's no upside at all for me. You should be cognizant there's no reason for anyone to help you with your strategies and you need to do this all on your own. You don't really have a shot entering the space unless you have systematic alpha generating strategies you've run a track record with, or you go get a STEM MSc from a top school and go be a quant at a small firm and then move.
HFT/Quant trading is something insanely/highly competitive to break into so to prevent you from getting your hopes up and to be as transparent as possible, you missed the boat. I know for a fact we wouldn't even look at a resume from a non-target with no previous track record wanting to do HFT on our quant teams (And we're an OMM, not a Tier 1 HFT shop like CitSec/HRT/Jump - they'd be even less likely to look). I do know however if you have a recommendation/referral from an existing member who can vouch for your strategies and say look this guy is one of the most active MM's on X dex and has some knowledge of HFT market-making strategies, talk to him, then that's when maybe we can discuss further.
Thankyou, I will take the advice re crypto, actually I have been doing some work in
crypto and built a fully systematic mean reversion strategy(low freq) and another strategy for triangular arb.
I have come across the following literature related to HFT but there is some skepticism around practicality
and usefulness of these books/papers but this is all thats available in the public domain.
Are you able to comment on usefulness of this type of study materiel or something else you could suggest please ?
*Books
Market Microstructure Theory by Maureen O'Hara
Algorithmic and High-Frequency Trading (Mathematics, Finance and Risk) by Álvaro Cartea
High-Frequency Trading: A Practical Guide to Algorithmic Strategies and Trading Systems by Irene Aldridge
*Papers
Statistical Arbitrage in the U.S. Equities Market by Marco Avellaneda∗† and Jeong-Hyun Lee∗ 2008
High Frequency Trading in a Limit Order Book by Marco Avellaneda & Sasha F. Stoikov 2008
Lastly, are you able to DM me please.
So I have thought about this a lot and I am leaning towards getting into a master program but
it would be helpful if I could get some advice on which kind of master degree I should go for.
Since I am targeting quant researcher/trader roles, my preference is
master in something as math heavy as possible
applied math > data science ML > CS
I have looked into a few programs:
Columbia - Applied Mathematics Master's Degree ONLINE ($75k)
> Not sure if I will qualify but may be if I do some of their online courses that can help
as pre-req. I can push myself for the cost of this but I am not sure if this is going to be as respectable
as any of Columbia's on-campus courses
Oxford - MSc in Mathematical and Computational Finance (£40k)
Cambridge - MASt in Applied Mathematics (Part III)
ETH Zurich - Master in Applied Mathematics
> I think these are most respectable (on-campus) on my list but unlikely I will be able to get in any of these as the pre-req as extremely math heavy which I don't have
and it requires first class degree which I also dont have
So the question is if I do another math MSc(which I can get into) and get top grades before applying, will Oxford ever consider
me or I should forget about these.
There are also a lot of very good universities that offer undergraduate modules as online standalone course
which I am considering before applying.
Harvard - Master of Liberal Arts (ALM) in Extension Studies, field: Data Science ($37k)
Ok the name is a bit misleading but it is math and ML heavy if you chose the right modules so I am most attracted
towards this mainly because its most reachable for me as there is a option of 'Earn you way in', i.e. you do well
on a couple of pre-req courses and you are in.
So this is obviously the most respected uni and the course is easiest to get into with the catch being
this is an online program so you aren't really a Harvard graduate like the one who has studied in a program
thats extremely competitive to get into and you have studied on campus but its much better than
doing an MSc from a uni thats ranks 300+ (which are kind of uni's I could realistically get into).
So there are two key things for me
> have a correct understanding of what a good MSc in the context of Quant Trader/Researcher roles for HFT/MM firms (I think the prestige of school matter
way more than the content of the course as long as its stem)
> What I can do to prepare myself to have a realistic shot at those MSc programs
So any advice you can give will be really appreciated.
Thanks!
What is the goal here?
If your goal is to make money, then leverage your existing knowledge to work as a software engineer at FAANG+. After 2 years there, you can apply to work as a low-latency software developer at an HFT shop where your networking knowledge will definitely count. By then, you might (unlikely though) have learned enough product knowledge and statistics to discuss signal improvements with the research team. More likely, you may be able to optimize for speed - lots of Jump's "quant researchers" are working on this instead of actual signal research. Optimizing for speed is neither fruitless (you will get paid) nor trivial.
If your goal is to work as a trader, then know that
1. a Master's in math/cs at a top school will get you the interviews but will NOT get you the trading seat. I went to a top 10 school for CS and out of ~100 applicants from our school, something like 15 people got offers. As the power law dictates, those 15 got offers from multiple shops, and the other 85 got 0 offers.
2. you will need to prep for interviews for 6+ months for about 3-4 hours a day. In contrast, software engineering interviews require maybe 3 months of prep. Download a book of quantitative trading interview problems and you'll see the kinds of problems they'll ask. They might ask you about your trading self-study, but it will have little to no impact on whether you get the role.
3. even if you were only 20 years old, your chances of securing a trading role are slim because of how competitive it's become.
Thanks for your inputs, much appreciated.
The goal is to make money doing trading/learning the markets/alpha generation.
I think I will not go down the SWE route as this is not my end goal, even if do somehow land a role as SWE at a trading firm, how likely is that it will be somewhere close to trading activity where I will get exposure to actual signal generation. Not likely as you mentioned too, I think but obviously depends on the firm but the firms will probably not appreciate me using SWE role as a stepping stone.
Going back to trading, I am happy to grind brain teasers and interview related stuff (and learn lots of math and do MSc) for as long as it takes as long as I get enough interviews. For now, I am not getting any interviews and I not sure whether its because of me changing career at 35 or the fact that I don't have a degree from top uni, probably its both.
Ultimately, I want to trade and develop a skill in alpha generation so I am at a cross road, either I
> Spend next few years learning everything on my own and trading independently
Pros : freedom to learn/trade whatever I want, not spend time in learning pointless mental math/brainteasers,
Cons: No possibility to collaborate with anyone who can add value/assist in what I am doing. My experience so far suggests I will have to literally try everything on my own and see for myself what works and what doesn't. Take every advice on internet with a bag of salt when it comes to alpha generation, people who are good at this will not give advice and the ones who will, are actually not good at this. Not complaining at all but its a reality that needs to be taken into account. However, I would be lying if I said I don't get demoralized every now and then when there is absolutely no help available (coming from poker background its very different). A practical example is some of the literature related to HFT I mentioned above. Not that I am expecting this to spoon feed me strategies that make money straight away but some people have said none of this kind of stuff is actually read/used by industry professionals but I don't know whether I can believe whatever reviews I have read. I am just going to read it all, try it out for myself and see if I can get something useful out of this and if not move onto something else.
> Or Go down the uni route hoping to land a role as a quant trader/researcher eventually
Pros (once hired): fast learning/not wasting time on stuff that doesn't work, work in a collaborative environment where I can learn from very capable people, dream scenario for anyone who wants to be in this business
Cons : £30-60k for a degree (may have to do a degree from a lower ranking uni first and possibly do another one from top10) and still not great prospects of landing a role as you mentioned its competitive.
Everyone has been very nice in this thread but you seem to be just ignoring people.... (I know you're not trying to be rude at all and you haven't come across it at all but your just passing off peoples comments). Im currently at top top target studying maths where I have consistently ranked in the top 3 of my year, with international Olympiad experience and run a trading account for medium time frame algos which are pretty unique and have the ability to scale. I've done internships in the spaces you are talking about and I'm not saying this to 'flex' I'm saying it because I get rejected from places because they take the best students in the world. You have to ask the question and be honest to yourself how smart are you. These places take the smartest people because that is what is required to solve the problems which they want you to solve, its not just because they want to only hire from MIT or Cambridge because its prestigious but its because if you not smart enough to get into these institutions you are going to struggle (of course there are outliers but they are often rare and there is often some personal reason why they didn't get into a top top school).
I don't want to ruin your dreams but there is no point in you going into this industry if you are 35 (I say this because most peoples mathematical creative peaks in their 20s) and have a 2:2 from a low ranking uni. If you have great ideas start your own trading account and develop trading strategies (not something that has been done 1000s of times before from a book, something completely unique) if you make money great. If they are incredible, have a CV which basically just says you have been able to find this 100 million pound idea. If it's the real deal you will get interviews and job offers instantly.
If you can get into top target and by that I mean Cam, Oxf, MIT, Havard, UChicago, Stanford etc for applied maths in a highly reputable field with direct applications to trading, then rank near the top of your year (which unless you have a personal reason why you got a 2:2 from a low ranking uni is near impossible), then that is a way in but if you can't do that and you end up going to a relatively good uni but not a top top uni you will have just spent money you won't get back.
People above me are right that if you want to work in the space you will most likely have to work in the 'back office', and try and transition in but that is very hard.
In all its not a feasible goal and please don't waste your money or time on some hope one day u will in working in algo development at HRT.
(Im sorry if this came across as rude in anyway but I feel like u needed someone to say how it is)
I mostly agree with the sentiment of your post: the poster doesn't seem to really take heed to any of the advice. However, you're exaggerating if you're saying they need IMO-level experience. Something like AIME (not even USAMO) + top school for math/cs seems to be sufficient for many of the top places for trading (not research). Honestly, some of the "top" shops including ours have lowered the bar in the past 1-2 years. At the same time, I think applicants are more "prepared" than ever - we're seeing people with 0 math competition experience from state schools perform superbly in interviews.
Wasn't really saying you need the Olympiad experience just that if HRT/ DE Shaw etc had to say things they look for having olympiad experience is something they are interested in seeing. Honestly interviewing for these firms ends up being a meet up from the maths competitions I have done in the past. I really didn't want to make it seem if you don't have maths competition experience that there is no point in applying because people peak at different times but was just trying to express what quality's these companies are after.
FWIW, some firms are open to internal transfers from software engineer to quant/trader.
- Optiver (look up Łukasz Harężlak's Linkedin)
- Citadel (look up Neel Somani's Linkedin)
Try to get a chance to do the math test at Optiver...
Success rate is quite low but if you pass it they are usually ok giving you a shot at real interview
Thanks !
I fully agree everyone has been really helpful but I feel there has been some misunderstanding that I am ignoring the advice being given.
If you look at it from my point of view, I am seeking advice from a number of sources including outside of WSO
and there is a conflicting advice as well. This is not surprising since I am coming from a
non-traditional background.
For example, I am told by someone (who has claimed be to working at top tier MM as QR) that unless
I think I am super smart who can work everything out on his own, I should look to join a firm
where its much easier to learn from experienced people.
Where as on this forum, I am told, unless I think I am super smart I should not aim to join a quant
trading firm since it is obviously competitive which I fully agree but you see there are two very different things being said in the same way(although neither of you is wrong, its just that quant trading is difficult whichever way you approach it).
Don't get me wrong, I am sure all the advice is being given with good intentions but please bear
with me while I am trying to put it all together.
So I hope I am not coming across as arguing or not following advice while I am trying to clarify a few things before making a big decision.
And I really appreciate all of you giving advice, I really do.
So it has been said in this thread, unless I can get into a top MSc, the goal of joining a trading firm is not
realistic and I fully agree. I am looking at my possible options for MSc and if it doesn't work out
for really reputable MSc, I will give up on this. But if I can get into good MSc, then I would like to give it a
shot for the main reason I will be learning lots of math which is not going to waste anyway
> Top tier MM/HFT firms are the main preference but not the only target, I am sure there are a lot of other firms/hedge funds
that trade on the longer time horizons where my MSc would be applicable
> I could still fall back to trading on my own
For now, the only two maths MSc's that 'seem' to be approachable are:
Columbia - Applied Mathematics Master's Degree
JHU - Applied and Computational Mathematics Master's Program
Both are online and from what I can see there is a 'possible' way in by completing pre-requisite courses.
For example, JHU has said I will not be competing with other candidates and they don't cap the intakes but they
might accept 'provisionally' based on the condition that I complete some ungergrad courses but I guess
I will apply and find out.
So its really a question of how reputable these two programs are and whether I can get into them.
Does anyone have any view on these two courses ?
Thanks again !
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