Recruiting for Prop Trading
I'm currently an undergrad attending a target public school and have been seeing lots of trading opportunities being posted on our job boards (DE Shaw, SIG, Jane Street, etc). I'm currently majoring in mathematics and information systems with around a 3.7 GPA and am seeking a full time role. By background I'm not that financy - I've previously interned at a VC several years back. I wanted to hear insights on what it takes to break through into trading from GPA requirements, interview prep, to books that I could read to help me along the process. Additionally, how big does networking play a role in recruiting for trading? Is it recommended or is it a waste of time? Thanks.
please never say public ivy again
Most importantly practice your arithmetic, no point studying anything else if you can’t get through the standard first round math tests. Plenty of information online about the standard prop math test. If you want to read something make it natenbergs classic options textbook. Best of luck..
The only way you will EVER land a job in Trading is by networking. The desk has a certain culture to it, and if you don't fit that company's trade desk culture, you will never get hired. As compared to many other finance roles, I would say traders are much more concerned with the FIT of a candidate.
I love getting thrown monkey shit by people that don't work in trading... been at trader at a BB for 4 years now...
Can vouch that this is also true for hedge funds.
Glassdoor is sufficient for preparation. Firms like SIG and Jane St. literally have hundreds of questions posted which span from "really easy" to "extremely tricky".
If the firms you mentioned recruit there, a >3.5 GPA in a technical major is generally acceptable for an interview. A lot of these places have relatively relaxed resume cutoffs compared to banks. They'll do a lot more interviews but cut people faster when they make mistakes.
Networking has positive value, but the ceiling is really low. If someone refers you, chances are you'll have to go through the usual brainteaser/game gauntlet that normal candidates do.
The alternative prop trader recruitment guide (Originally Posted: 10/11/2012)
I've been on the job search to be an algo trader since Winter 2010. I worked for one briefly until the office closed on all of us, and worked at Big 4 since. Finally received an offer to work in a prop shop (and an offer to work in a more quanty role in big 4).
The company that has finally taken me first met me over a year ago (summer 2011), after a broker introduced me to them ( of his clients) after my previous employer (another client of his) closed the office I was in. I was paid off well (the best evidence that I wasn't let go because of incompetence), but well and truly screwed in the job climate.
I applied EVERYWHERE with some very mixed responses. My sample size is pretty high, and I've interviewed and tested at many decent places, with varying results.
This guide is for people that dont have a perfect resume (my GPA was low and I'd had a few jobs held for not a long period of time), but know they are good enough for the job and REALLY want to do it.
Side note: This guide could easily be adapted to dating as well (not all of it), but there are some significant crossovers. The reason you cant get the girl you want is probably the reason you cant get the job you want either.
Here's a list of tips, some new, some old but still important.
1) There is 100% correlation between places that interviewed me, and places that I didn't just apply to using the online application form. They are looking for a reason to reject you, if you are in my situation, then they have a reason to reject you. It's so much harder to say no to someone to their face or over the phone (in that order). I've been rejected outright by some average companies, and interviewed by the best in the world. All it took was effort to build a relationship.
2) Careers fairs at a university are a great way to meet the recruiters. This may sound obvious but notice my use of the indefinite article. It doesn't have to be your university. While I did use my own one (a UK target), the security is non existent at other events and you can say you're alumni and you'll get in. Not a single recruiter cared, some even found it pretty resourceful.
3) Do something extraordinary. I wouldnt have had the offers I've had without a single piece of paper. A solution to a brain teaser, which I'd made harder. For clarity (and at the risk of revealing my identity to employers that see these), thos of you familiar with brain teasers will be aware of the question. I have 2000 cards in a deck .I discard the first one and put the 2nd one to the button of the deck. i repeat this process until I have 1 card left, what is it? I didn't just solve this question, I solved the case for an N card deck, putting the Xth card to the bottom of the pile. By god that got me places.
4) Break rules: Alumni services were only for people more than 2-3 years out of university? That's you. Noone checks this stuff, its pathetic how little they care. Use that to your advantage.
5) Apply to companies that aren't recruiting. It shows initiative and gives you a prescreen. Call them up, ask to send your CV (they wont say no), send it, call back a day later, they'll look at it. Ask whats missing, go and do whats missing or find a substitute.
6) Apply to companies that dont have a public profile. How to find them? Linkedin and 3 degrees of freedom. Find a random guy at a company you would like to apply to. Then click on the "people that looked at this profile also looked at." After 2-3 clicks you'll find a whole list of companies you didnt even know existed. These are largely populated by 2-3 years of experience traders from bigger firms, or founded by their ex head traders. These are great for people that dont want a formal training course, and learn by doing (like me). In prop trading, one factor counts, do you make money. Where? Fewer care. Yes brand is important but if you're in my shoes or similar, you just need a shot to prove yourself.
7) Keep learning. Coursera etc. are a great way of demonstrating you have a self drive,and picking up new skills to learn. There are a million threads on which language is best. It doesnt matter which you learn. Pick one and learn it. Make something with it that does something trivial but cool. It's an AWESOME topic at an interview.
8) Take a low paying job and do it spectacularly. People assume if noone employs you, then there's something wrong with you. When people ask what are you doing at the moment, saying between jobs is just awkward. NOONE will judge you on what you do, they WILL judge you on how you do it. Find a new process, be more efficient. Dig deeper into things that aren't in your remit. I saved my company huge amounts of money. I was a mispricing in the labour market, and was exploited hugely. Word got around that I was a cheap techie person that could automate anything and I did. resulted in a back up job offer in case this trading thing doesnt work out.
9) Big 4 is incredible for opportunities and contacts and life. Amazing work place balance (its like snatch alley here). The money is average, but the opportunities are not. They are constantly recruiting,especially in the contract labour market. and its a foot in the door with a branded company (and you can white lie that you have a full time position with them). Employing someone in demand by someone else is so much easier (as is dating). You will also have a work life balance that allows you to do other opportunities (starting a business) and their extensive training network is awesome for picking up qualifications and skills.
10) Have a Plan B. It takes the edge off each application. Prop trading is hard to get into. If it isn't going to happen for you, you need a backup plan. Mine was Big 4 (and still is), until another opportunity presents itself.
11) Dont take no for an answer, unless its from HR. They have no authority to change the procedure. However, if you're dealing with the owners or someone higher up, then you can make a counter offer, of either a trial period, or working for less money or a course that gives you the skills they say you miss. This got me 2 offers.
Oh and one last thing, learn to deal with rejection. I now embrace it. YOU ONLY NEED ONE PERSON TO SAY YES. Even with a 2% chance of getting a job. apply to 50 places. I've probably applied to over 100 firms, and the one I'm working at is a decent outfit, in the top 10 volume providers on some of the exchanges they operate on.
Will answer any questions I see in the thread. This is long enough for now.
Best of luck, stay hungry.
I don't understand this article
why would you say that? this article is so awesome and OP is putting real-world stuff in there.
its a hybrid success story combined with a few hints and tips for the people out there that dont network naturally, and derailed slightly at university, leading to a sub par GPA that would otherwise autoding them from any online application process.
I figured I had a good sample size of applications/interviews and offers to add some value to the forum.
Great article. I thought the tips are helpful. thanks
Shady Prop firm recruiting video (HILARIOUS) (Originally Posted: 08/18/2008)
Ok I am dying laughing at this. This is the most shady video and firm pitch I have ever seen. Enjoy!
"Some days i do over 300 trades"
"on average 150-175 a day"
hahahahahaha.
http://www.opusatlanta.com/Trading_as_a_Business.wmv
I think on the opening screenshot the guy had investopedia up open on his computer monitors.
?
"Sedic" is a hell of an aptronym: more like seedy. Did anyone catch that incredibly sad opening sequence? Yikes...
its not really funny -.-
lol they defined a professional trader
Prop Firms Recruiting (Originally Posted: 08/24/2010)
Does anybody know if the big prop trading firms actively recruit fall graduates for training etc. and when would it be a good time to get resumes out? The reason I ask is I am aware many of the reputable prop firms have training programs and im assuming they have a cutoff date for applicants, any help would be appreciated :)
Get your resume out ASAP--ideally through some sort of campus resume drop or through your network. Most are doing OCR right now and fall graduates are fair game perhaps to even start in the winter time. Unlike big banks, the schedules are a bit looser about when and who they recruit, but I know for a fact that many are doing their first rounds either right now or very soon.
Thanks for the fast response, I will get my resume out ASAP. I was hoping for a little bit more time before sending out my resume as I have been trading futures for the past year and i am finally getting consistent and i just needed a bit more time to polish up the P&L. I am definitely up on the year, but I know with a little bit more time I could be up more. Do you think it would be advisable to hold off on the resume and build up the account a bit more, or give my P&L as is.
As said elsewhere, if you are in college I am willing to wager significant $$ that your PnL is meaningless to most shops (outside of showing your interest). It is likely unverifiable and if it is big enough to wow them, you probably should just stick with your own thing since it is successful. Most prop shops aren't using purely speculative strategies, which is essentially what you are probably doing. Training tends to also be done on the job, while you are a trainee/clerk, so general knowledge/intelligence/drive is more important than some unverifiable PnL that, no offense, is likely dramatically smaller (if only because of capital resources) than most first year traders at one of these shops.
No offense taken, and I appreciate your reply. The one reason I began trading was to hopefully show my passion for this field, as I thought i needed something to standout because I am not at a top-tier school. Although it may seem unlikely that some college student would have a meaningful trading resume, I can assure you that the thousand plus hours I've spent back-testing strategies, pouring over charts, and trading are very meaningful. I've learned more about the psychological and technical aspects of trading than I ever thought I could learn on my own. You are probably right about my PnL, but hey at least I can call myself a trader as I have experienced many of the things that any trader goes through(albeit on a smaller scale). Enough of my rant, and thanks again.
Anytime. The drive will most definitely be important. Drive (and other psychological factors) and general intelligence is essentially what all the shops recruit for and little else. Target schools usually serve as a proxy to intelligence for them (right or wrong), but there are plenty of people even at elite shops that are from lesser schools because they have worked their asses off.
Most places don't trade purely or even mostly off technicals. If you go to a MM firm (most of the firms you are going to apply to are that) are going to beat that out of you incessantly outside of a general perspective/idea of understanding what is going on in the marketplace. Not many Bollinger bands or Fibonacci numbers being used at most of these places....
And unless you are doing algorithmic trading, there is very very little backtesting. Where I work has 0 backtesting whatsoever, as do the vast majority of places some of my riends work (which includes Citadel/DRW/Optiver/etc.).
***This greatly depends on the desk and products traded, so I shouldn't generalize too much, but this has been my experience.
Prop Trading Recruiting Timeline (Originally Posted: 08/06/2014)
Hey guys,
Quick question.
When do prop shops start accepting applications and interviewing for full time trader trainee/analyst positions for May 2015?
I'm a senior in college, and I intend to apply to all of the major market making firms. I understand the process is much more flexible than that at Ibanks, but since I won't be (hopefully) starting until the spring, I don't know when is too early to start send out apps. Some firms, e.g. Optiver, have entry level trading positions posted on their website, but they don't specify whether they are looking for immediate start or college students.
Thanks
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