Anyone making any decent money from investing in ICOs?

TONA09's picture
Rank: Baboon | banana points 123

Looks like there have been some crazy returns available for those investing in ICOs mid-2017.

Is it a case of being too late to the party now given the sheer number of ICOs occurring and potential cannabilisation of available funds?

I've put small amounts of money in to some over the past month or so, purely due to curiousity and FOMO. However, after having educated myself a bit more over these I am confident that circa 20% I've entered are scams (which is cool) but equally a few with definite legitimacy and purpose.

Just curious to hear others views and any success/failure stories?

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Comments (85)

Dec 27, 2017

Bump

Dec 27, 2017

How did you go about choosing ICOs to invest in?

Dec 27, 2017

Well initially in a very ill-informed manner.

But doing some analysis off of ICOs where the tokens reached external exchange, 69% have over a 1x return with an average return of 39x and median return of 4x.

Yet to realise any of my investments.

Was just curious as to whether anyone in the community had any success or experiences?

Dec 30, 2017

How did you conduct your research in terms of determining good ICOs from bad ones and then picking which ones to go after? Honestly haven't paid much attention to ICOs as the majority of them seem like bullshit.

Dec 27, 2017

Bumping to follow.

ICOs seem to be a scam given the craze with so many unknown and not-unique coins. Own Litecoin and Ripple currently.

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Dec 27, 2017

XRB didn't have an ICO because they distributed their coins through a faucet, but I got in a few weeks ago at $.60 and have made quite a bit, it hit $10 last night. I'm looking into this ICO called Birdchain at the moment.

The only ICO I invested in so far was EnjinCoin, the gaming crypto currency, which ended up paying off, but took months to do so. Be prepared for an ICOs to dump as soon as they hit the exchange sometimes.

Jan 3, 2018

How did you know, other than a mention from someone here on WSO, to go for Ripple? The more I see values on coins sky rocketing the more I don't want to miss out on the gains. I've been risk averse up to this point because tulip bulbs. There's so many different coins, how do you decide which to buy into?

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Jan 3, 2018

The key is to invest only as much as you can afford to lose, which is why, in my estimation, there aren't many people making substantial money. I have $5,150 cost basis in cryptocurrency. I suspect I have a considerably higher investment than the median investment size (potentially less than the average). So people are bragging about their ICO gains, but they are gains on a few hundred or a few thousand dollars.

Dec 27, 2017

Interesting - why birdchain?

have invested in the following for various different reasons:

WAX - very optimistic of legitimacy and genuine business success
INS - very optimistic of legitimacy and genuine business success
Naga - unsure was drunk
Cashaa - big following but rather disappointed with the lack of professionalism which leads me to believe it is all smoke.

Davorcoin, Ucoincash and Eigencoin - some of the hilarious lending platforms which are undoubtedly a ponzi scheme (purporting to provide over 1% interest per day - so funny that some people believe this is genuine) - just looking to gain off the token price rise as people rush to pour their cash away in these schemes.

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Dec 27, 2017
TONA09:

Interesting - why birdchain?

have invested in the following for various different reasons:

WAX - very optimistic of legitimacy and genuine business success
INS - very optimistic of legitimacy and genuine business success
Naga - unsure was drunk
Cashaa - big following but rather disappointed with the lack of professionalism which leads me to believe it is all smoke.

Davorcoin, Ucoincash and Eigencoin - some of the hilarious lending platforms which are undoubtedly a ponzi scheme (purporting to provide over 1% interest per day - so funny that some people believe this is genuine) - just looking to gain off the token price rise as people rush to pour their cash away in these schemes.

Also,

CFKRS - Promising investment. Creative company, especially the name. Pretty ingenious to invent a cryptocurrency called Coinfuckers.

You give them money and in the end they fuck you with their coins. You kind of knew it going into it, so hard to complain.

"If you always put limits on everything you do, physical or anything else, it will spread into your work and into your life. There are no limits. There are only plateaus, and you must not stay there, you must go beyond them." - Bruce Lee

Dec 27, 2017
TONA09:

Naga - unsure was drunk

Honesty

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Dec 27, 2017

For those following this thread, the following link shows some of the returns that could have been made on some ICOs

https://icowatchlist.com/finished/best-returns
At the time I write this, Stratis could have returned an ROI of 161,238.34% haha - madness.

Does anyone know of any personal blog/journals out there where an individual is documenting their investments and progress in a forum? Haven't been able to find any but would be really interesting to see.

Dec 29, 2017

How do you choose which ICOs to participate in? Read the whitepaper, check out the development team, etc. (i.e. the same way you'd evaluate an existing coin)?

I've avoided ICOs and just gone with coins that I believe are undervalued, have a solid development team, a working or close to working product, great teach, and an actual need for the coin (vs. using the coin as a substitute for stock).

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Dec 30, 2017

Hey Sil, where do you find the information on these things? Trying to understand the drivers of ICOs and figure out how crypto 'funds' would work.

Dec 29, 2017

For ICOs, I check ICObench, which has ratings, reviews, and a calendar of upcoming ICOs. You can then read the whitepaper, look at the team of developers, look at the stage of product release, etc. I would also do some Googling and look them up on Reddit.

For learning about coins and staying in the know, I read r/CryptoCurrency on Reddit. It's full of shills and crap content, but you do see some really good analysis if you sift through it. It's at the very least a good source to stay in the know.

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Dec 27, 2017

So far I hadn't really put much thought into it and it has just been an exercise of curiosity more than anything else.

I had started looking at putting together a framework with the following metrics, however given that this bubble is mental it is probably pointless and not worth the time and thought)

Financial Metrics
Insignificance of Target Market Cap against total Crypto Market Cap
ICO Tokens v Total Supply

Business Metrics
Quality of team and experience
Existence of Prototype
Whitepaper Quality
Legitimate Business Case
Github rating (although I do not fully understand how this could be done)

Social Metrics
Alexa website ranking (just to track the "hype")

All pretty basic though

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Best Response
Dec 30, 2017

As a former currency trader who now invests in technology businesses, I feel compelled to comment--this shit is nuts. The vast majority of these ICOs are going to 0. The vast majority of so-called 'blockchain' businesses are going to 0. I'm old enough to remember the dot.com bubble.

In 1997, any internet company was well bid precisely because the people investing in it did not understand what they were buying. I got asked by a waitress at a cocktail bar recently about whether she should invest in bitcoin. She has NO other investments and knows nothing about finance or the underlying technology. And while that anecdote doesn't implicitly scale to the larger market, I think it's an indication of it.

I had a friend in high school who went to jail for dealing drugs that killed one of our other friends. He's out of jail now, can barely spell, and has $1M worth of cryptocurrencies. While there are a few respectable TRADERS who are into this at the moment, there are few respectable INVESTORS who have jumped into the deep end of the pool as of yet.

Traders can make a lot of money in a bubble so long as they get out before the collapse, but as a former trader, I warn those of you who aren't professionals that it's exceedingly difficult to pick tops and bottoms. That's not how any trader makes money. And for those of you who don't understand A LOT of the underlying technology and the corresponding policy drivers that will invariably poke a hole in the sidewall of this over-inflated nonsense, I have another anecdote: I have never known a successful tech investor who doesn't understand the tech in which they invest.

Now, there is a chance that I'm simply too old, too dumb or too myopic to understand this newfangled technology, but I think not. One or two of these will work out. For ICOs that are ostensibly replacements for shares, I think they're almost all going to 0. For 'crypto' companies that change their name to 'reflect the new reality of what their companies do', they're almost surely going to 0. For people who think they're buying a currency with their investments in the space, they're likely to be disappointed. Most of these 'assets' will never become currencies. They will mostly become valueless commodities. For those of you who think you have the chops to pick the handful of winners out of hundreds of options, I say to you, "Good luck." For those of you who just want to make some money trading, keep it light and take profits when you can. For every person who made a fortune in the dot.com bubble, there were dozens of people who lost their shirts, their shoes and most importantly, their chance to take risk in their careers.

If you're not risking much, knock yourself out. But view this as a gamble, not an investment. And if you get lucky, and happen to pick the winner in this chariot race, congratulations. But try not to pretend ex post that you were some sort of genius, and saw the whole thing playing out precisely as it did. I know far too many dicks in the VC world who got lucky or were in the right place at the only moment someone like them could ever have made any real money. They concoct some narrative after-the-fact that paints themselves as some sort of sagacious prognosticator. Don't be that guy.

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Dec 27, 2017

Great take - thank you.

I definitely lack the knowledge of the underlying tech and 100% agree it is a gamble and not an investment - just looking to have fun with small amounts of capital attempting to ride the rise and for no better reason than wanting to be involved (an air-tight strategy).

As you say, everyone and their blind dog is getting involved and it is evident that many are financially ill-informed. I'm not sure if you've seen the likes of the below but people will get very very hurt from them:

bitconnect.com
davor.io
ucoincash.co

They dress themselves up as p2p lending platforms and purport to provide +1% interest a day, which just has to be a ponzi scheme. There are many many more of these "platforms" and I don't understand why people aren't talking about it.

This site itself is hilarious but provides an idea of how many of these "platforms" there are:

https://www.lendingplatformreviews.com/

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Dec 27, 2017
Dec 31, 2017

Very true. These are all zeroes. But as a trader I guess I wish I played. Way easier money than anything else in the trading space. As long as you trade it and manage risks there's money to be made. But at the end of the day they are zeroes.

I'm not the biggest fan of cryptos at all. But if they end up being real we will likely have a crash at some point. Where all the dumb money dumps. You could have bought amazon at $5 after the crash. If you are an investor wait for the crash and pick thru the rubble.

Array
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Jan 8, 2018

@traderlife I see your logic, but I'm not sure the crash comes when the dumb money dumps. If the whales -- early developers, early technologists, corporate entities (XRP) -- started dumping en mass, then we could see a massive crash. (Ripple has safeguarded against this to appease concerns and prevent market manipulations.) However, the whales are the smart money-- they have likely already cashed out enough that they are at no real risk of losing their principal or their profits so far--and they know they don't have have great liquidity, as dumping would cause massive slippage and deteriorate their existing assets. Thus, the whales likely help stabilize prices by buying back when retail traders are dumping or bulls are losing force, to help protect their existing assets. Additionally, I think the whales have unparalleled access to market manipulations compared to other assets. Just look at Bitcoin Cash for the most extreme example.

So, yes, the real crash should come if the whales have already quietly exited, and the dumb money dumps OR retail bulls run out of steam as there is no more whale money artificially inflating the price. But if this happens, I think the market might never recover. Or it would completely reinvent itself with new cryptocurrency assets, and we could see a similar bubble.

Jan 3, 2018

Fantastic response.

It is widely known of bubbles that the time to get out of the market is when the least sophisticated investors are pouring in.

@brotherbear has it exactly correct - it is just not sustainable for people who know nothing and are buying whatever ICO hits the market to make eye-popping returns ad infinitum. But that is what is happening now, and this impression fuels ever more inflows to the space every day.

If your investment feels like rolling the dice, it's probably because it is. Just remember that even though casinos reward the few, the house always wins. Are you going to be the lucky one?

Jan 3, 2018

I don't buy your logic entirely. Essentially 100% of the American population is invested in the U.S. Dollar. The dollar is a currency. If you believe that cryptocurrency will become a useful currency in the long-term then you would expect "unsophisticated" people to be using it; in fact, unsophisticated people using a currency would be a show of strength.

Jan 3, 2018

insightful post. I agree that you don't want to be the last one standing when the music stops.

+SB

Dec 30, 2017

I have been buying some coins lately, but have yet to do any ICO's (not really even sure how to participate in an ICO).

For any of you who have bought into ICO's what websites did you use?

Dec 29, 2017

Start at ICObech.com.

EDIT: Just be aware that ICOs, like most existing coins, are absolute crap. Since there is so little written about ICOs, it's also harder to do your DD on them before jumping in.

Dec 27, 2017

I have seen them described as "magic internet money" - I like that

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Jan 3, 2018

Semi-serious question: Is anyone here planning to purchase any of the Venezuelan Petro at ICO?

Dec 29, 2017

I admittedly have not read much into it, but I quickly wrote this off as a government in need of money just trying to get on the blockchain hype train.

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Dec 31, 2017

Know a guy who's been investing in ICO's since this September, he gets most of his tips from a crypto hedge fund in Korea. A lot of the tips are also just insider info for altcoins that are already listed, but hey it works lol.

Jan 3, 2018

Apparently Peter Thiel, who is a f*cking sex god, is crushing it in Bitcoin.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/peter-thiels-founders...

Jan 3, 2018

"sex god"?!?

Jan 3, 2018

No, a f*cking sex god.

Jan 2, 2018

First day on the job, you know what I learned? How to spot a murderer. Let's say you arrest three guys for the same killing. You put them all in jail overnight. The next morning, whoever's sleeping is your man. You see, if you're guilty, you know you're caught, you get some rest, you let your guard down. You follow me?

    • 2
Jan 3, 2018

The whole "it's a bubble!" commentary isn't helpful. Yeah, the dot com phenomenon was a bubble in the 2000s. That doesn't mean that those invested in Google didn't make a killing. Block chain is the future. It takes complex relationships with multiple layers of middle men and replaces it with a secured, decentralized technology. Those who roll their eyes on this statement don't quite get it. It really is THAT revolutionary. It's going to revolutionize supply chain, insurance, finance (particularly PE/VC), real estate, etc.

That said, a lot of these ICOs are going to zero. Big deal. Invest in the ones that aren't. If you hold a broad enough portfolio, you'll make a killing. There was a dot com bubble, but the internet is legit technology. Many struck gold. You can do the same in this space. Bloc chain technology is legit and it's improving.

Don't listen to the old farts that scream "bubble!" at everything.

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Jan 3, 2018

I generally agree with your statements on the future of blockchain but have some concerns about this post overall.

"a lot of these ICOs are going to zero. Big deal. Invest in the ones that aren't."

This is a duh statement and is easier said than done. You can apply this to retail stocks in today's market, of course you can purchase the brick-and-mortar stocks that will survive (and possibly thrive) at a deep discount and reap great returns, but how do you know which will survive?

" If you hold a broad enough portfolio, you'll make a killing."

I'm not sure this is correct. Did people with a broad portfolio of dot com stocks "make a killing" during and after the tech bubble burst? I would think not. Apply this to cryptos, a broad portfolio of garbage is still garbage....

    • 2
Jan 3, 2018
BobTheBaker:

"a lot of these ICOs are going to zero. Big deal. Invest in the ones that aren't."

This is a duh statement and is easier said than done. You can apply this to retail stocks in today's market, of course you can purchase the brick-and-mortar stocks that will survive (and possibly thrive) at a deep discount and reap great returns, but how do you know which will survive?

The two industry's aren't comparable so there isn't much to respond to here. The upside potential in ICOs doesn't compare to that of retailers. Different universe.

BobTheBaker:

" If you hold a broad enough portfolio, you'll make a killing."

I'm not sure this is correct. Did people with a broad portfolio of dot com stocks "make a killing" during and after the tech bubble burst?

Yeah, they made a killing. Those that got in super early and held until the burst of the bubble made a killing. Those that bought super late and held into the burst were destroyed. It's still reallllllyyyyyyy early in the ICO game. The market hasn't been formed yet. The idea is in its very infancy. The technology itself (with the smart contract) didn't even really exist until 2013 (with Ethereum) in a meaningful way.

So I would say get as broad exposure as you possibly can now. The losers will be outweighed by the winners. Again, we're talking about upside potential in the 10,000% to 1,000,000% order of magnitude range.

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Jan 4, 2018

No it isn't. Bitcoin averages 3.3 transactions per second, Visa averages 3,674 per second. It's just not scalable or backed by anything substantive to hold value over the long run. Even if you could solve the former, how many nearly identical crypto currencies can be created offering the same blockchain technology? Infinite. The USD isn't backed by gold, but it is legal tender, backed by an 18T economy, subject to regulation/recourse and protected by a powerful government with everything to lose if it starts breaking it's promises.

Jan 3, 2018

Who's talking about just bitcoin? There's wayyyyyy more to block chain than just bitcoin or even crypto-currencies for that matter. In many cases the tokens are merely equity shares in a company that takes the form of a trading platform. There's all sorts of activity popping up, from REITs, to cloud storage, to options and derivative trading, etc.. The people harping about bitcoin are really out of the loop.

Also, crypto is very real. The average national currency has a life span of less than 28 years. All around the world there is an enormous demand for money that isn't controlled by central banks. Americans may roll their eyes at this statement, but that's because they've never experienced hyperinflation. The networks are growing globally. In many countries, select cryptos are legal tender. Large banks have formed strategic relationships (i.e., UBS and Ripple) and, of course, there's the underground economy (ransoms, drugs, etc.) propping up the value.

So yeah, cryptos are real, there's more to block chain than just cryptos (and certainly more to it than just bitcoin) and those that get in early will do well.

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Jan 8, 2018

Vhs and betamax in the beginning were emerging technologies...the future...but one became a household items while the other became relegated to obscurity.

Blockchain may be a valuable technology, this doesn't magically make a 1,000 various 'coins' valuable.

The main issue is without knowing which coin could be the 'winner', a lot of value can be lost. That is what speculation and bubbles are all about.

The true coin to make it, if any do at all, may not have been released yet. What 10yr old technology is seeing a rush of investors?

Bitcoins age is a large negative, quite the opposite of what a poster said above as being a positive.

It's inefficient, volitile, and caught on the radar of governments that will affect it's value indirectly-see Korea eyeing regulation and the ensuing selloff.

There will be few winners and many losers.

Esuric:

The whole "it's a bubble!" commentary isn't helpful. Yeah, the dot com phenomenon was a bubble in the 2000s. That doesn't mean that those invested in Google didn't make a killing. Block chain is the future. It takes complex relationships with multiple layers of middle men and replaces it with a secured, decentralized technology. Those who roll their eyes on this statement don't quite get it. It really is THAT revolutionary. It's going to revolutionize supply chain, insurance, finance (particularly PE/VC), real estate, etc.

That said, a lot of these ICOs are going to zero. Big deal. Invest in the ones that aren't. If you hold a broad enough portfolio, you'll make a killing. There was a dot com bubble, but the internet is legit technology. Many struck gold. You can do the same in this space. Bloc chain technology is legit and it's improving.

Don't listen to the old farts that scream "bubble!" at everything.

If the glove don't fit, you must acquit!

Jan 4, 2018

I've personally invested a few hundred into the crypto market, but mostly because all the online casinos and sports betting sites are blocked in the office. I think cryptos fundamentally have a future over the long-term, but right now the high amount of friction around transactions and the limited opportunities for actually using these to buy stuff make them just a speculative asset class.

This however does not detract from the fun of waking up and seeing your portfolio up by 20% over night. Honestly at this point, if I lose the entire 200 bucks I initially put into this, it'll still have been totally worth it just for the entertainment value alone.

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Jan 4, 2018

+1 ^^This. I put in $300 across a bunch of different coins (hat tip to Praesto) and they are now worth ~$1,100. May cash out some gains and just let the balance keep going and I will enjoy watching the show.

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Jan 7, 2018

Glad I could help. It's nice to trade on house money. I haven't used my own funds in a while in the crypto market. The key is to take profits at regular intervals because the bottom will fall out at some point.

Jan 4, 2018

As a Canadian, I'd like to just say the grass is greener on the other side ;) but that's just me. I just hear there's a lot of problems liquidating into actual fiat though

Jan 7, 2018

The rationale is this: if you don't invest a token amount of money, you could be seriously kicking yourself in a month or two. That alone should make you pause.

I know too many people who've made thousands, millions (and in one case a billion $), not to get involved. But only with money I am perfectly ok with losing.

Which is basically the rationale for anything for anything outside of govt bonds.

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Dec 27, 2017

Do you mind me asking what the average profile is of the people you mention? Do the majority of them have tech backgrounds?

Jan 7, 2018

I've been getting really into ICO investing recently so hopefully I can add a little value here. I think one of the most helpful tips I could give would be to check how much buzz there is revolving around the ICO - specifically, checking the number of Telegram followers, reviews, and this link: https://tools.icodrops.com/social/telegram
Also, conduct due diligence on the founders. It's usually not too difficult to determine what's a scam and what's legitimate based on the success/credibility of the founders. This also sort of ties into the concept; just as you would a company, look into the business model, scalability, target customer base, etc. I think it goes without saying but READ THE WHITEPAPERS. thoroughly. You'll notice the scams are pretty consistent in avoiding technical discussion (generally - of course there are exceptions).

I don't think you've missed the bus at all. VC is just starting to jump on board because the investment process is so similar. A lot of it is a subjective hunch. I think returns on an aggregate basis could start going down as more of the startups start crashing (not only scams, but also legitimate companies that just couldn't justify continuing), investors get more scared, and people actually start paying attention to the underlying business/system. But personally, I choose to believe ICOs will continue to grow as a fundraising vehicle. I think they're still in the "wild west" stage, but should be interesting to see how they progress.

    • 1
Dec 27, 2017

Thanks - makes sense, number of telegram followers could be added as a Social Metric in one of my posts above for reviewing an ICO.

I made the mistake of joining a few of the telegram groups in relation to some upcoming ICOs and it really does give an insight into the number of ill-informed individuals chucking in cash - it was a cesspit of broken english, idiots saying "to the moon", vast misunderstanding of the process and more idiots posting "top 10 coin".

Do you mind sharing which ICOs you have gotten into (or looking to)?

The ones I have got into that actually appear legitimate are WAX and INS.

WAX as at this moment is 3.55x cost and INS is yet to hit external exchange.

    • 1
Apr 3, 2018
Gordon Geico:

I've been getting really into ICO investing recently so hopefully I can add a little value here. I think one of the most helpful tips I could give would be to check how much buzz there is revolving around the ICO - specifically, checking the number of Telegram followers, reviews, and this link: https://tools.icodrops.com/social/telegram
Also, conduct due diligence on the founders. It's usually not too difficult to determine what's a scam and what's legitimate based on the success/credibility of the founders. This also sort of ties into the concept; just as you would a company, look into the business model, scalability, target customer base, etc. I think it goes without saying but READ THE WHITEPAPERS. thoroughly. You'll notice the scams are pretty consistent in avoiding technical discussion (generally - of course there are exceptions).

I don't think you've missed the bus at all. VC is just starting to jump on board because the investment process is so similar. A lot of it is a subjective hunch. I think returns on an aggregate basis could start going down as more of the startups start crashing (not only scams, but also legitimate companies that just couldn't justify continuing), investors get more scared, and people actually start paying attention to the underlying business/system. But personally, I choose to believe ICOs will continue to grow as a fundraising vehicle. I think they're still in the "wild west" stage, but should be interesting to see how they progress.

I couldn't agree more! Very good points raised here.
I think it is incredibly important to do your homework before you invest and really look into the product you are buying.
1)Look into the team and see if you get info on the people behind the project. Visibility is very important here - I always get a little suspicious if I can't find anything at all.
2) Website and Whitepaper look professional?
3) Are they totally new in the business or are they founded or co-founded by someone who already is a player in the game?
4) What do others say online, do they have a following? Always great to check some independent websites too. I personally always look at https://foundico.com/ and https://icovoting.com/ 5) Financial backing? Realistic idea?
6) Am I passionate about the product? And is there something similar out there already?

For example, I've been having my eyes on the Austrian start-up Cultural Places since I came across them online. Since they launched their ICO for the cultural coin, I've been doing more and more research into the project. Checked the website and whitepaper, found infos on the team, searched for following etc. If you are able to tick all those boxes, there is nothing stopping you. This one is for example a project on a topic I am really passionate about - art, culture and travelling - and I believe it could be very successful. I think it's incredibly important that you have a personal interest in it but you should make sure you don't get carried away and check carefully. :)

Jan 9, 2018

these get rich quick schemes need to be banned because they will end up collapsing the entire cryptocurrency industry. ICOs are pyramid schemes.

Jan 10, 2018

no, it is all necessary. you cannot storm the beach of the mind and of acceptance without having a lot of casualties.

ICOs are across all industries and on a new platform of raising money.. just as you wouldn't have said private equity / hedge funds as a whole were "get rich quick" schemes

Tactics have changed, your strategy shouldn't.

    • 1
Dec 27, 2017

Do you have any skin in the game?

Apr 3, 2018

Hey cryptofutura, I think you deserve a response...heck, everyone does. We're listening, sorry about the delay ...my best guess at places on WSO that could help:

If we're lucky, maybe I can guilt some users to help you out: @Anihilist @tropos @CrashDavis12

Fingers crossed that one of those helps you.

Jan 8, 2018

How many lambos should I buy with my bitcoinz

If the glove don't fit, you must acquit!

Apr 3, 2018

Hi TJTP, the silence is deafening, sorry about that.... Any of the threads below helpful?

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  • More suggestions...

No promises, but maybe one of our professional members will share their wisdom: @Luxo @Andrey-Kulagin @Woodard

Fingers crossed that one of those helps you.