Bankers are among the smartest people in the world, though so easily manipulated. Why is it that as soon as graduates enter banking, they suddenly feel so inadequate that they change everything about themselves. We are meant to be the movers and the shakers of the developed world, yet a vast majority of us are so easily manipulated that we will do anything if someone calls it prestigious.
I used to judge people on what they did; I respected bankers just for being bankers, I respected barristers for being barristers, and so on. I attatched value and respect to prestige. Prestige is nothing more than the value system and dogma of other people. After sitting on this website, hearing countless analysts bitch and moan about how their job, after sitting in my IBD office and seeing 75% of the people miserable and lifeless, I have come to realise why I respect people.
I don't respect what people do, so much as how they do it. I respect the guy who puts his heart and soul into something, who finds a genuine passion for what it is that he does. I have no respect for someone who does something they don't want to, bitches and moans, all because they have a false attatchment to prestige, which shrinks their testicles so much that they daren't go and do what they'd really like to.
I respect the guy I met the other week working at Prada, who knew everything about the human form, dressing to shapes, colours vs skin tones. He was eccentric, he loved what he did, and he was happy to help me get a few outfits. My friend owns a little restaurant, and knows everything about the food he serves; the roots of each dish, and the chemistry of taste, he's been into food since 15. It's an almost infectious passion he has. I worked with him one summer a few years ago, and he was busting 15 hour days, every day of the year, with a smile on his face and a spring in his step. These are the people I respect.
I love my job, I love working in IBD, and as someone who values money, I love getting paid. For all the long hours and sometimes mundane analyst bitch work we have to do, we are working on things that genuinely shape the economic landscape. We get to work on massive issues, with top people, exposed to the 'behind the scenes' side of business in a way that almost everyone will never get to do.
If you want respect, it isn't about getting on some elitist bandwagon citing quotes you read in 'damn it feels good to be a banker', hiding behind pompism and well worn banker quotes. It isn't about watching 'wall street' and copying it to a T. It isn't about basing your personality on what you ' think' a banker should be. It's about being who you are, and putting yourself into it. If you can't do that, they you fail as a human being to achieve any sort of excellence. You just coast, living someone else's life in quiet misery.
Sorry to ramble, please feel free to add to this discussion, whether you agee or disagree.
I like what you are saying here. I always admire people who love what they do, who work hard and have the ability to make things happen.
You are right you should love what you do for what it is and not for the value others attach to it.
BUT you forget that a LOT of those analysts who complain about the bitch work and are worn out initially went into banking for the "prestige" and the money. So technically they are doing what they love which is slaving away for prestige. Also I bet they change themselves because they probably wanted to in the first place.
I guess my question is why would one be better than the other?
Simple; Doing something because you value it, is more virtuous than doing something because other people value it. The former demonstrates a respectable quality, the latter demonstrates a lack of character.
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I also agree doing something you love is important. Still the jobs you mentioned such as cooking and fashion don't change much over time. I'm not saying they didnt work hard to get where they are but you could also look at it as analysts see their role now as a stepping stone to do things they think they will enjoy much more down the road. I don't think anyone necessarily loves being an analyst (bottom of the totem pole) but can definitely be excited about the prospects of a different role down the road..
I think most of it has to do with personality. Those people I described would probably be grumpy and bitching during any activity whether they love it or not, and honestly I believe most just love their salary and bonus more than what their real interest may be. (in a nutshell they already got what they asked for)
I respect the person who supports his decisions while having a positive attitude the most, no matter what their motives are.
Kinda off topic: I think that if you have a nice personality and are friendly in the office it goes a long way because then you work in a nice atmosphere which makes the bitching less. I remember loving a previous job because i had a great time with my colleagues even though the work itself was shitty.
So yeah at the end of the day setting your own values is the best but some people just can't do that hence they follow! :P
Haha did no one else find parts of the op's prose hilarious? "I respect the guy I met the other week working at Prada, who knew everything about the human form, dressing to shapes, colours vs skin tones. He was eccentric, he loved what he did, and he was happy to help me get a few outfits." Haha.
Never underestimate zee powerr of zee Prada sales assistant! Also brownie points to the OP for shopping @ Prada
My 2 cents,
People respect Obama because he is the president. Only he knows if he wants to be the president or just want to be called the president.
My goal was to work at Wall Street, all the decisions I made in school are simply procedures that allow me to reach that goal. It doesn't matter if I like them or hate them. I don't enjoy going to class, working my ass off tryna pull some As. I wanna play video game, travel around the world with my girlfriend. In the end, its those hard work and doing things that I don't enjoy got me into Wall Street instead of some hippie fraternities.
Now my goal is to beome a millionair and to get respected, it doesn't matter if I like IBD or not as long as it helps me reaching that goal. I might not enjoy the process, but in the end, it all pays off.
I believe in trade-off.
I disagree with "poormonkeynomoney"'s view on life. If you never enjoy the road to your goals then you run the risk of sitting in your chair at an age of 80 thinking that "Indeed, I really managed to meet a lot of my goals, i made my millions, but damn i hated 90% of my life". In the long run I have no doubt that how much you enjoy your work is directly correlated with your success at it.
I am not going to start on the discussion about pursuing materialistic goals as a way to reach happiness. Money makes things easier and more convenient, but in itself does not make you happier. Facing challenges and overcoming them on the other hand, is something that for most people adds to the happiness "meter".
I believe in the saying "The Journey Is the Reward". This has multiple meanings, but to me it represents the fact that if you work incredibly hard to reach a goal, then in the end the path that lead you there will turn out to be more important than the actual outcome. To use poormonkey's example of getting an A in a very difficult course: You work incredibly hard all semester, and know with yourself that you are giving 110%. Now regardless of whether or u get an A or a B at the final exam (the outcome can be affected by many factors), you will bring with you for the rest of your life a confidence and a strength from having worked so hard to reach your goal. It has strengthened your personality, your mind. Exercising in the gym to make your muscles grow stronger is the physical analogue to this concept. When you meet a difficult situation later in life you know you have "been in hell before", and you know you can deal with it. That confidence, and that experience, is invaluable. No one can take that away from you. The concept also demonstrates that always "taking the easy way out" is dangerous if you are in pursuit of happiness.
I believe happiness lies in facing various small and large challenges, working hard to overcome them, and then growing on the hard work you laid down to get there. Reaching the goal itself is usually an anticlimax, a side effect, and will come with a hard working, persistent, and "never give up"-mentality.
Magnus
This is not true for everyone. In my case, I would probably say, "Indeed, I really managed to meet a lot of my goals, i made my millions, and thank $od all my hard work pays off.
Think about the Book of Jobs, did Job enjoy the process? he just has to bear it off and the end justifies the mean.
I don't wanna start an argument with you.. you value the process, and I value the end. We both work hard but only driven by different motives if thats how you wanna put it.
Im kindda wondering why I got thrown a monkey shit for expressing my personal opinion... sorry if I offended anyone...
Good post.
I personally have the deepest respect for anyone who puts his heart and guts out to achieve something.
After Business School, I know friends who started companies, other that became restaurant owners, mechanics or even kayak instructors in the middle of nowhere and I didn't feel superior working in IBD in NYC.
If you are doing IBD to prove something instead of just following your path, sooner or later there is going to be a "backdraft" and you will go through a lot of bitching.
Respect is earned, never given and it comes with respecting yourself.
This thread reminds me of this quote: "Man is born free, yet everywhere he is in chains."
That's Rousseau, whom I really enjoy. (No broke back). He was speaking about how most people spend more time worrying about what other people think of them and conforming to that instead pursuing what they want. (And how funny it was since everybody is conforming to what they think everyone thinking, so there isn't even a baseline to conform to, since everyone is adjusting themselves according to everyone else, who is in turn adjusting themselves accordingly).
250 years ago Rousseau predicted that one of the biggest threats to democracy was the future emergence of people who pursued things in life not because they thought they were worthy of pursuing, but instead to gain the esteem of others - he was right. This is framed well in the idea of slavery, where slavery is being subject to the will of another. So if you chase something because of how it will make others perceive you, then you have effectively been enslaved because you are submitting yourself to the will of another.
That's why the pursuit prestige is a fail (since it is conferred by other people) [I'm still pursuing it anyways haha] as compared to the person who does what they truly love , despite what it makes others think of them. Obviously there are limits to this idea e.g. this doesn't justify extreme antisocial behaviour.
To the OP: The issue you raise is widespread in Western society, but especially North America I find. Once you start looking at it all, the majority if things we do are not because we love them, but because we want to impress other people, even down to the clothes we wear, way we speak, etc. Perhaps this isn't totally wrong and there is an argument to be made about the benefits of conformity, but I don't think it's a problem only bankers have. Facebook is really good for watching all of this unfold, because everything you do is going to broadcasted to other people, so you really have to take into consideration what you do/say.
Also, your "how to get respect" idea still suffers from the same problem you are criticizing, in a sideways manner. Phrased differently it's "how to get others to think better of you", which is the line of thinking which has brought about the behaviour you are criticizing. There are no easy answers to any of this crap, which is why from a personal standpoint, I still continue to play the game even though I see how stupid it all is.
Finally, not complaining, but it seems like we have been having many of these reflective threads lately. What is in the air?
Definitely agree with this point (specifically that bankers don't only have this problem). Arguably, this conformity is one of the reasons for the housing bubble slash debt crisis. People look and see their buddies getting a bigger, more expensive house and feel the need to do the same. The better car, better tv, better x good, etc. Don't know what it's going to take to change this conformity but I don't think it can sustain itself.
Screw everyone else, if you are happy with what you have then you'll be able to sleep at night knowing you don't need materialistic things to make your D bigger.
Hey,
I think what Rousseau was saying in that quote was actually a little darker, he's actually making a large point FOR conformity (hence why attacked by liberals). He argues that what Berlin calls 'negative freedom' (absence from coercion) isn't freedom at all - i.e. the Anatole France line of argument that "the majestic freedom which forbids rich and poor alike from stealing a loaf of break and sleeping under a bridge" isn't worth much. Rousseau claims freedom lie in conformity to the general will, and I think he uses the language of 'one's true desires' in the same way that socialist dictators claim to be democratic - representing not the people's overt expressed preferences, but their true preferences. Maybe this is for a different thread. Man it's been a long time since I talked about Rousseau!
To answer your your point. I'm not saying that this is a problem peculiar to bankers, this is just the industry which I find myself in, and the only one I can speak about with any knowledge. I'm sure that this is a problem commonplace amongst many professions.
The reason I called this thread 'how to get respect...' was a deliberate paradox - it was aimed at those people who are desperate to get respect and recognition, those people who are motivated by this concern are precisely the people I wanted to question.
To people who ask why it is wrong to value what other people think. I'm not saying that it is right or wrong. All I am saying is that often there is a difference between what these people actually value and what other people tell them they should value, and when it comes to the crunch, they chose to go with what other people value - hence why they keep drifting into unhappiness every now and again. All I am saying is that this demonstrates a lack of [whatever you want to call this quality] compared to those who have the testicles to do what they actually value.
The irony is, that the people I respect are the people who actually do something because THEY value it themselves, they have a sincere passion, which usually makes them very very driven, and they end up being the role models that other people base themselves on.
Very eye opening.
One of the good posts I have read on this board. Bananas
I will fight the temptation to get into a philosophy wanking session with you, but I'll just respond to your first point: You are right Rousseau was making a larger argument for conformity and in a really twisted way with the employment of a general will which everybody would have to submit to."Forced to be free" ---> WTF.
Even though I think the conclusions he drew from it were wrong, the foundation he started on is very strong and gives some good insights to the ideas flying around in this thread, and that's why I brought it up
Henry David Thoreau - "I was not born to be forced"
Ive always loved that and his Civil Disobedience essay.
The extent of the power of money is the extent of my power. Money’s properties are my – the possessor’s – properties and essential powers. Thus, what I am and am capable of is by no means determined by my individuality. I am ugly, but I can buy for myself the most beautiful of women. Therefore I am not ugly, for the effect of ugliness – its deterrent power – is nullified by money. I, according to my individual characteristics, am lame, but money furnishes me with twenty-four feet. Therefore I am not lame. I am bad, dishonest, unscrupulous, stupid; but money is honoured, and hence its possessor. Money is the supreme good, therefore its possessor is good. Money, besides, saves me the trouble of being dishonest: I am therefore presumed honest. I am brainless, but money is the real brain of all things and how then should its possessor be brainless? Besides, he can buy clever people for himself, and is he who has power over the clever not more clever than the clever? Do not I, who thanks to money am capable of all that the human heart longs for, possess all human capacities? Does not my money, therefore, transform all my incapacities into their contrary? - Karl Marx More here: http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/manuscripts/power.htm
though ive only worked for a summer, I actually like what i did and love getting paid that amount for it. I kind of dislike how everyone simply says 'we are in it for the money', and to see so many current analyst bitching about it makes me 'sick' sometimes; you should've very well known before entering the field that this is what it will be like. I am actually eager to start work, and hope this 'passion' or excitement will last me.
your thread reminds me of a great book -- The Fountainhead.
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this thread is clearly a sappy ploy by the OP to get awarded prestigious golden bananas, something which he shamelessly and unvirtuously strives for b/c the posters on this board attach so much value to them. all the posters who awarded him bananas, ESPECIALLY those slimy self-promoters who made a mention of the good deed in their response, did so in order to broadcast their generosity, a trait which they don't actually possess, but want others to THINK they possess, so that they can be regarded in the more prestigious light of virtue.
On the other hand, I wrote this post to purposefully be an asshole, not because being an asshole is considered prestigious (it isn't), but because I truly enjoy being an asshole. Hence, I am indisputably the most virtuous poster on this thread.
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you are a tool.
good one koho
Also, true wanna-be bankers and prestige whores don't really learn Wall Street line by line.
They learn American Psycho line by line.
because.they.want.to.fit.in
things you said are righteous and quite right, but the system we live in is designed in a way that money and prestige are valued, perhaps always relatively higher than others. It's just in the human nature, unless someone something somehow is able to change the way we value thing as human beings, the value system will remain. I know in some Scandinavian countries, like sweden or something, people genuinely don't give a crap what you do. I watched a video on youtube a while back of a trash picker simply loving what he does, because no one around him gives a crap and treats him nicely like to everyone else. the value system there is obviously different, and being in a country like that will certainly have strong rapport to your argument, but still no matter where you go money/job/prestige will always be on people's mind..
nonetheless, it's important to do what you like to do, life is short, but be practical and make sure you can feed yourself.
As for me, i entered banking not because i wanted to become one when i was in 8th grade. I wanted to try it because it was for one reason or another the most sought after career when i was recruiting for jobs. It is really like checking it out. As my 2-year is coming to an end, even if i don't remain in banking, I still would know what it's like, and I certainly think i would have what it takes to make it back. Or maybe i may just end up staying..
fantastic post
Holy shit. ^ You wanted to be a banker in 8th grade... wow you must have had a miserable childhood. I didn't even know what i-banking was till freshman year college...
I didnt know what banking was till Junior year....
This is one of the most meaningful threads on WSO. Props to everyone who took it seriously and did not start a flame war.
= homo
irony perfection
haha bang on
Most of the time,
There is a difference between what you want to do and what you will do.
Some people just like to complain...no matter their situation.
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