How to recover after royally screwing up in undergrad?
Before I begin, I want to say that this is not an "I graduated college with bad grades how do I become an investment banker" thread, this is a "I graduated college with bad grades and made nothing of my time here, what do I do now so I don't end up broke and possibly homeless in my 30s" thread.
Most members of wall street oasis were the types who made a GPA of 3.5+ in college, got summer internships, and actually made something out of their college experience. A lot of these guys ended up working in finance or whichever field they wanted to go into because of their good grades, internships, and employable major. In most cases, this person's life is going to be off to a great start financially and he is going to be well ahead of most his peers.
Now lets take the opposite of that person.
The guy that picked a major that wasn't so employable, made poor grades (banking or management consulting where undergrad performance is more or less everything.
Say this person realizes after graduating how bad they messed up in college and now they want to put themselves in a situation where they are not broke at the age of 30 and actually have a career going, how does this individual get their lives back on track?
Damn, you messed up but unless you provide more details about yourself there's not much help you can get. The only solution I might think off is going to require time and discipline.
I suggest you look into web design and databases and create a portfolio of your work, there's a lot of legal & illegal resources you can download and learn. You can even extend this to general programming by creating a github account and uploading your work there and talk about it at interviews, but that is going to require a solid grasp of Algorithm & Data structures and a general knowledge of other things related to programming.
Wasn't there a black chick that was literally sleeping on the streets until she managed to get into some interviews and eventually got herself on track? there's still hope for you buddy... people from other countries don't have the same opportunities like in the USA.
I wonder if this CS path is really that legit because I've read stories of people that went to bootcamp and then somehow managed to turn their lives around by getting a decent paying gig. Right now I work as a lab tech on weekdays and bartender on weekends, make near 50k a year but I can't keep doing this forever. Lab tech is soul crushing and bartending gigs wear on you after a while.
You have just mentioned something that I wanted you guys on this forum to know since a long time. America is a very special place and as Warren Buffet said: "babies being born in America today are the luckiest crop in history".
Enjoy your privileges Americans.
I'd say your average Joe is neither brilliant nor super hard working. I'd like to believe that if you are willing to work extremely hard, any company that offers upward mobility should reward you enough so that you're not broke by 30. Chipotle literally picks managers from people who started rolling burritos...
There's also the Army which looks good on a resume...
Second this - I'm in oilfield services where either a) military experience b) experience as a drilling supervisor (for which the educational requirements are "flexible") are the holy grail. Tough market right now in oil and gas but you could look for similar coordinator / plant manager / operations manager type roles where the focus is more on skills / ability to execute tasks than on pedigree
.
I don't believe in fairly tales.
LOL I was in a similar situation as you, graduated this summer with ~ 2.5 GPA from an extremely non-target. However, I networked a TON and took on 4 internships before I graduated. Sent out my resume (omitted GPA), and ended up landing a MO position at a large multi-national IB making approx. 80k all in. Fast forward 3 months, and I am currently in the final rounds of lateraling to FO with a couple MMs.
It's only over if you don't try.
Disclosure: I am unemployed and a recent graduate, however that has nothing to do with the majority of what will be below.
First, in addition to the low GPA, and no internship experience, we will assume you didn't network. I know for a fact there are individuals with sub 3.0 GPA's that get good jobs and some even in finance. Usually they know people, or have someone to connect them. Whether you can network at this point or not is beyond me, though if you were to visit your school's career center they probably would tell you to go for it. Sometimes you can connect with someone who was in a similar situation.
What's done is done. Now looking forward. Step 1 could be to get a job. Something involving financial statement analysis would be good. If you can't then put yourself in a job that will let you move into the job you want. You can also get a job in sales, then go to grad school and take a finance program. Then use the above two steps of networking or getting a job that gives you the skills necessary to complete the job you need.
You also have the job of getting a certificate program if you have the $$$. I have heard good things about the UCLA program which is around $15k. Also check out BU and Northwestern.
Read books, the news and take online courses. (Sadly most of the good ones are pay, but plenty of decent ones). Check out Coursera, MIT, Edx, Lynda, Stanford Lagunita. Make sure you visit your local library as you can find tons of e-books and, if your lucky, textbooks at your local branch.
Try one method, or a combination of all the methods. Always try to keep working towards something. Keep an open mind. Keep in mind the opportunity costs of every option. Determine what your goals are: What specifically do you want to do in finance? You never mentioned this.
Edit: I noticed from your other posts that you may have been in this situations for a few years. Is there any update?
I originally wanted a long term path to Investment Banking but now that I think about it, I've somewhat grown a love for programming. A lot has to do with the fact that I won't be able to get into IB with my background in the near future so I have to go for a job I have some skills for and can somewhat enjoy, lab tech isn't it.
These days I work as a lab technician during the weekdays and bartender on the weekends, pull close to 50k yearly but I am about to be 26 soon. As you can see, time is not really on my side here so I have to figure out a clear cut path fast before the big 30 comes, in my eyes 28 is the age where it all has to be settled.
I am giving myself the 26 deadline to narrow it down. In my off time I have been learning how to code, started off with Code Academy to learn the elementary stuff but am now moving on to some intro courses. At times I've thought about going the bootcamp route.
It's rough for me to narrow down a decision, I've been thinking of software sales because of the lower barrier to entry. I can use the off time from work to better my coding and programming skills.
It is a rough time in my life right now, every day I feel the clock ticking.
I came out of undergrad with a crap GPA (in the 2's) and a love of computers. I had dropped out of college, joined the Air Force, and then dropped back in but didn't really apply myself.
I graduated when I was 24 and left the Air Force. I talked my way in the door for a Masters of Computer Science program. Finally hit my stride.
I ended up with a Ph.D. in Computer Science. I've worked my way up the chain and now make a killer salary at a Prop Trader (previously at top tier financial and scientific computing firms).
You can do it! Get something on paper (graduate degree, certificate, something) and leverage it up. 5 years from now, no-one will care that you had a non-traditional background.
Hell, now it's a plus for me when people ask me the"Tell me about a time you overcame an obstacle" interview question.
Fly helicopters for the National Guard. Then fly privately for wealthy people. Your training, which privately would cost you over $100k, is free and you really don't have to change your lifestyle.
Note: Still in college, this is just an option I've looked into if I can't get a gig I'm interested in.
Get a job as a staff accountant. Sounds like a shit gig, but you should be able to move on to an analyst role from there after a year or two.
You probably already have an idea of how bad your life will such for the next few years. You may just want someone to tell you that you have a way to slip out of your shit hole. I am that someone. Staff accountancy is the way to slip out your hole.
Thank me in '22
You go into sales. If you can't network your way into a name brand firm you can start at a startup and lateral.
Oracle top reps make 1M+. A LOT more make 250k. All without the soul sucking hours of banking.
you assume it's easy to get into sales...
sales reps for companies like ORCL have great pedigrees, like many bankers. yes, sales is more about personality, but don't think you can just walk into a sales job at a place like that off the street. inside sales at a small/medium sized company maybe, but you don't get to be a top rep doing inside sales.
Off the street? Probably not.
Homeless bum? probably not, but if you have a degree from a decent school and can talk to a stranger (GPA aside, they don't care about it at all in sales), then you have a very good shot.
Unlike finance where you have to have a 3.7+ GPA, HYPS, and know about the banking recruiting process in college this is a very easy route. Even then you still might not get a spot.
No one starts day 1 in the 250k positions. Sales is largely meritocratic. If you haven't closed many, many sales in the past no one is going to trust you to not screw up an enterprise deal.
Have worked at ORCL and I don't know any sales reps with great pedigrees. Plenty of sharp people, but no HYP grads and I would be shocked if the average GPA was > 3.2. Inside sales is a starting point for every sales career, no one starts out flying first class across the globe closing 9 figure software deals.
Most salespeople are, to be frank, misfits. Sounds like this guy would fit right in.
Not to say sales is soul sucking at all....the pressure to hit targets is most likely equal or greater than closing deals, especially at your 'top rep' level.
If you manage to keep an average job ($50k in the US) and don't spend more than you make you won't go broke, it's as easy as that. You might not be able to go out to eat often, take expensive vacations or buy a lot of toys but you won't be broke. I mean come on, making a lot of money isn't everything and the chance of being one of the top earners (pulling in millions) is low anyhow. Not everybody can be a high performer, a lot of people are average.
Most* people are average - by definition.
Since your pedigree is out to do any of the IB stuff, you can either slog it out and eventually break in after a few years of hard-work or do the programming route.
Seems like you've already chosen the programming route (sounds sexier, lower barrier to entry with all these magical bootcamps). That being said, I've known people who take the bootcamps expecting to make an automatic $100k out of there and still can't land a decent job because they don't have the rest of their life together.
Don't expect miracles, but to A Friends point, you're $ is still above the median HOUSEHOLD income of the U.S. (Assuming you don't have kids and a spouse)
"Seems like you've already chosen the programming route (sounds sexier, lower barrier to entry with all these magical bootcamps). That being said, I've known people who take the bootcamps expecting to make an automatic $100k out of there and still can't land a decent job because they don't have the rest of their life together."
Alright cool down there dude, I don't think anyone going down the bootcamp route is expecting to make that high of a salary, work at Facebook/Google/Big 4, and being a millionaire in a couple of years. For any people who expect that sort of stuff, I really do feel sorry for them.
This thread is about actually moving up and making something out of a bad situation. Sure, I won't work at GS or break into IB, obviously won't have their salaries and prestige. Still, me and others in my situation want to make the best of our situation and quite frankly, a 75k yearly salary is great for someone in their 20s who didn't exactly go the high GPA HYPS route.
You don't need a decent graduate program, you need a decent graduate major. Look, if you get a MSc in CS, Math, Chemistry, Physics, Engineering or smth similar you will actually receive knowledge that people are willing to pay for and hardly anyone outside Finance will give a sh*t about the name of the school if you will demonstrate that you know your stuff.
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/ama-dropout-coding-bootcamp-100k
I've strongly considered going this route in a year or so if I feel like I've made some progress on my own but one thing I do wonder is how much this market is going to be saturated in the future. Just right now, I can already envision high school kids dissing college, going to these bootcamps, and trying to break into the industry. I've done my research into these bootcamps and it does seem like there are a lot of scammy ones but only a few good ones.
Right now, the bootcamp thing is underground but as soon as it takes off and becomes very mainstream, it can be problematic for people who rely on these for a job in tech. So many ambitious high school kids and aspiring Zuckerbergs are going to go after these programs aggressively, making it hard for older people to use them as career switchers.
You have a pretty typical background for a bootcamp. Typically bootcampers are career changers (including a lot of IB dropouts) interested in a mix of technical challenges, work/life balance, and excellent salary.
It's definitely harder to land a job as a bootcamp grad compared to 2013, but it's still pretty far from being saturated. So instead of landing a job a week or two after a bootcamp back in the day, I'd expect around a 3 month job search, 6 months max, for a good dev job in a tech hub given you develop the right skills (App Academy / Hack Reactor curriculum). Usually the bootcamp grads I see with no job are just really bad and amateurish.
Bootcamps aren't a guarantee. It really only enables you to work harder and faster than studying on your own. However if you don't have the attitude, those job guarantee claims on their webpages can't help you. You can learn the technicals anywhere, the value of the bootcamp comes from mock interviews, constant code feedback, internal job boards, salary negotiation, and most importantly a network of students and alums who are as hungry as you are. Make sure the bootcamps offer these services as the syllabus content is "free" on the web.
if you're serious about switching into development, your goal is not to be some sort of CS genius, but rather legitimize yourself as a professional developer ASAP. Learn version controling, test-driven development, bash scripting and start publishing your work professionally online @ github. Build sideprojects for your current job and prove on your resume your coding skills are valuable to someone.
Free Code Camp would be a better online course to follow. You may not even need a bootcamp if you study their curriculum seriously. Start algorithms prep now. (algos unlocked by cormen, grokking algos, Interviewbit)
The heroin trade is always looking for young, hotshot salesman.
without digging into details or reading too hard into this thread, i would like to simply comment that unless you are just completely idiotic and just do not give a fuck, if you take the proper steps you should be able to make 6 figures in your 30s in the US.
Okay so here's what you have to do:
Call everyone's attention in the office like you have an announcement, walk over and climb up onto his desk, pull your pants down, and shit on his keyboard
Wrong thread, my bad
All in all, we still have good 50-60 years ahead of us. There's a saying it takes 10,000 hours of practice to learn any skill to a professional level, so do the math and stop worrying. If you want a career in anything, go for it.
Not really.
Ideally, its better to have money in your 20s and maybe 30s when you have the youth to enjoy it all and have those experiences.
I don't see what's the problem. It's better to start now than never, what's done is done.
About 20s, he has clearly missed the first train. I hope that was due to "outside activities" not video games. He still has time for his 30s, 40s, heck actually it doesn't matter you can go for as long as it takes just remember to freeze your swimmers.
OP, please read my recent thread on the Consulting forum. I shared my story.
Had a 2.5 GPA undergrad. Took 5 years to graduate. 3 major changes. Landed a 100k+ job with Deloitte right before I turned 26. Also had an interview with McKinsey around the same time.
What you need to do is go to a boutique and specialize. Build up some industry experience and build up your skills. Focus on building up your brand and become so great at what you do that no one questions what your undergraduate GPA was. I specialized in digital marketing and analytics. I had a very niche area of specialization - ie performing analytics/research on the spending habits of consumers/customers of my clients and coming up with a product marketing strategy. My experience was heavy on the client-facing side but I also learned some incredibly useful technical skills. Don't worry about Strategy/Finance for now. Pick something you can go into and be successful at.
I've spoken at an international digital marketing conference and am part of several professional associations. I also got admission into 2 Top 40 Business Schools despite my poor undergraduate GPA. Haven't enrolled in any of them yet as I'm still evaluating the ROI and figuring out if I should aim higher.
If you can go to a small firm and build up your brand, you can leverage that into a bigger firm down the road. Once you're at one of the big firms, get onto the best possible projects and continue building your brand. Publish research, write articles, get involved with internal firm activities.
First of all, I want to say congratulations, ALWAYS great to hear a success story. Now that being said, I am currently in the process for acquiring those skills. I've worked as a lab tech for a couple of years after college and now I am trying to learn programming and coding to go with my scientific skills. Not that big on the life sciences anymore but I need some way of feeding myself lol.
My plan for finance, if it is still doable, is to think about it once I've established myself in an industry. I was thinking of trying to build up good work experience, get a high gmat score, and apply to an MBA a few years down the road.
I will read your post many times and write it down as an options, I truly hope it all works out the way you want it to man!
MSF brah. I partied way too hard in undergrad and got into an average MSF program, coupled with taking CFA and networking and broke into a boutique at age 26.
How many CFA levels did you take?
I had passed L2 when I broke in. Definitely not necessary and probably more important to network, but it shows you know the fundamentals.
This is something I've been strongly considering to get out of soul crushing BO corp fin. Would you mind sharing more details (major, gpa, undergrad school tier (top public, shithole state, private, whatever), msf school targets, etc)? Feel free to PM.
Or you could just not take no for an answer and grind until you get what you want. Difficult? You bet. When you look back at how far you come, will it be worth it? You bet.
Thanks WSO, I am grateful for ALL of the amazing advice that has been given on this thread (except for the one about pulling my pants down and shitting on some guy's keyboard, won't look good on a resume!).
To those of you who have recommended highbrow fields such as IB and Consulting still being possibilities, I am not really in the stage of my life right now to where I want to chase stars and I realize that I have to be more realistic right now. I started this thread to figure out a new path for myself and if possible, maybe (keyword) go down the MBA route in the future and break in that way.
Currently I work as a lab technician during the week and bartend on some days, not in a major city right now which sometimes gives me FOMO. Every day I am trying to write down plans for my future and figure out how I am going to move on from my current position as time isn't exactly on my side. I am trying to learn how to code (been at it for 6 months) and build other marketable skills which will make it easier for me to move on to other careers and be valuable when it comes to gaining employment.
Right now is not a bright time in my life but I look forward to improving my situation and hopefully sharing my success story with the many excellent and considerate people of this forum.
I didn't even graduate with a degree and I will make over 150k this year and I am still in my 20s and work less than any management consultant or banker. I also wasted most of my 20s with destructive behavior.
It can be done and programming and the CFA will be your best friends in accomplishing this. Also I never went to these developer bootcamps I just read books and built projects.
If you don't mind, could you go into more detail about how programming and the CFA combine to benefit you? I currently work in programming, but I was a finance major in college (no CS or programming courses). During undergrad I did some banking internships, and even had a full-time job offer at a decent MM bank before I decided to switch gears. I declined the offer, enrolled in a programming bootcamp after graduating a few months ago, and now work as a software developer. It was a decision I made somewhat impulsively, but no regrets so far.
However, I'm still very interested in finance on an intellectual and professional level, and I wouldn't mind pivoting back to finance in the next few years. I signed up for the CFA one year, but ended up not taking the test due to that year becoming much busier than I anticipated -- but I'm still interested pursuing the CFA somewhere down the road. How did you end up combining the programming + finance, and what advice would you have for someone like me?
I was that guy almost 20 years ago now. Now I run a FI trading desk. Sell, sell, sell. It doesn't take great grades to be a great sales person. Get a sales job and be the top producer, win recognition, and focus on what your good at. Then go tell everybody and you will always have a job. A lot of guys are complaining in Institutional sales right now because of the market environment. They are right, times are changing, but the top sales guys are making as much or more than ever.
I didn't read everyone's comments but I second the person that suggested sales. You can get into sales at a small tech company or pretty much get any entry level corporate job in any industry you can find. After working for 3-4 years, just get an mba from a 15-30 ranked school. You don't need to be in finance or consulting to be "successful" and the mba will help you switch careers into something you actually enjoy. Most people here think top 10 mba or bust but I know plenty of people that attend top 30ish mba programs that still get 100k+bonus jobs.
Software development is a field that could still be open to you. You usually need to either have the Stanford/Berkeley/MIT pedigree or be an Asperger's tech prodigy to get hired by the big dogs like Google, but most of us in the field are not that, and there are tons of great jobs that aren't Google or Apple.
If you want to go the bootcamp route like I did, you have to do your research. Some of the bootcamps are actually really good, and some are very poor-quality and only want to gobble up your money. But if you can end up at a good one, things can turn out well. I would also recommend dabbling in some programming starting now. I went into the class with zero experience -- I still got a job, but my offer pays less than my peers who had been self-teaching for a few months prior to the class.
I am leaning towards the bootcamp route, ideally would love to go with App Academy but I am also open to some others. The issue with some like Hackreactor is the cost, I mean 17k for a bootcamp? Yikes! I am currently dabbing in some programming right now though so I won't be going in clueless.
Thanks for sharing your experience!
Just to follow up, http://www.coursereport.com is a good source for bootcamp reviews. Most bootcamps encourage (or pressure) their students to leave good reviews, so be wary of that, but you can still gain some good perspective from some of the more honest reviews. On the reverse side, just because a bootcamp has only 5-star reviews doesn't necessarily mean it's a sham -- I just checked my own bootcamp, and it has eight 5-star reviews. I would be suspicious if I didn't actually know the people who were writing them.
Another good way to gauge the quality of a bootcamp is how rigorous the application process is. One school let me in after one phone screening and one interview, where I just had to build a shitty web page. They also have a reputation as being more diploma mill-ish. The one I ended up at did a phone screening, a group coding challenge, a personal online coding test, and a professional-style interview, as well as a lot of pre-requisite work.
App Academy seems to get good reviews, and of course its tuition model inspires more confidence than the other ones where you have to pay the tuition up front. However, because of that tuition model and how well-known it is at this point, it's only getting harder and harder to get admitted. If you start studying now then it isn't impossible to get in at some point in the future, but just be aware that the process might take some time. The same goes for a lot of other high-quality programs -- I know that my own school has gotten harder to get into in recent cohorts as well.
Also, depending on what region you're in, there might be some lesser-known regional schools that are high quality -- this worked out for me in my case. Fewer jobs available, but also less competition for those jobs. But on the other hand, NYC and SF make complete sense for the opposite reason, with more competition but also more jobs.
If you decide to go this route, good luck! The good thing about software is that for the most part, all non-engineering/CS degrees are created equal, and the only thing most employers will care about is if you can actually program.
stop making excuses,
when i was 26 i started out broke. 20,000 in credit cards debts. lived in a fucking basement in queens, new york. i went to a no-name both undergraduate and graduate school. GPA is 3.0. all i had back office experiences.
and it was 2010 right after Lehman crisis where no one is hiring people in investment banking. on top of that, no one is sponsoring international students for H-1B Visa.
after 1000+ applications, 800+ cold calls, i landed an investment banking associate position at a small boutique firm in new york. so stop making excuses.
and with that today (after five years), i made it to Investment Banking VP at a bulge bracket in Asia.
so stop feeling sorry for yourself and get your ass moving.
if u want something you will find a way, if not you will find excuses.
All of that without capitalizing I's !
Some friends of mine are going to teach in China based almost solely on the basis of being a native english speaker. From what I've heard, it's a pretty good gig. You are basically living upper-middle class with all of the social perks of being american. Might want to look into that.
How good are you at standardized tests? LSAT and near free law school is a possibility. I did it and have effectively reset my 2.4 undergrad.
Really good, made a very high score on my SATs and I am confident that I can crack the 750+ on the GMAT.
Get a 168+ and you can go to Wustl or Emory for near free tuition.
Kudos first of all to you PostGrad! I think it's great you're being open about your mistakes and owning up to your decisions. As far as where to go from here, there are few important steps I really think you should take right now. These steps are pretty much self-assessments that'll help get you on that sweet path to redemption and eventually your own success!
Self reflection- Think back to your college days. Was there anything you were even remotely interested in (outside of partying, or just hanging with friends)? Look back at your transcript. Was there any class that you even enjoyed or even performed well in comparison to your other classes. That could give you a hint into where your strengths and passions lie. Did you also take any business courses? If nothing else, you have a little bit of business knowledge to go lay the groundwork for your own business. But think back to your college days and see what strengths and passions you could build on.
Define your strengths and eventually your goals- Hinging on the last point, what strengths do you have right now that you're aware of? Write them down. Find out the career paths that cater to those strengths. Again as said in the last point, see if starting a business around those strenghts is something that would interest you. After you define your strengths, write down some idea of what you want to achieve as a postgrad (do you want to enroll in grad school, work for a certain company, etc).
Personal qualities- Successful people, whether it's those who have had GPAs and on top of their careers or entreprenuers with a thriving business, have certain intangibles that push them towards their goals. No matter what your goals are, having a few of these will take you far (sometimes farther than GPA, degree type, or education level). Here are some key qualities to work on: Self-awareness Motivation/Drive Willingness to learn (coachable, desire to get better, and keep learning whatever your craft is). Empathy (the ability to understand others and why they feel a certain way)
In the grand scheme of life, success, however you define it for yourself, comes down to other good qualities that are not always seen by the world right away.
Create a plan to get to where you want to go in this world- Like another poster said, read up on books related to your field or desired goals, get active in forums like this one, save up any money you have from your current job if you have one and invest in online workshops or seminars, NETWORK in your local area. Have a plan for getting whatever skills you need to achieve whatever goal you now have. Here it's all about being resourcefulness. A lot of successful people in today's world are known to have been resourceful. As you and I know not all of them graduated from top notch schools and of course some have no college degree.
Finally, some gratitude and perspective is important too. You have a college degree in hand, it's a bare minimum but it's an accomplishment nonetheless. I assume you have some roof over your head and food in the fridge? A caring family? Good friends? Things like that can be taken for granted. Definitely chase your goals with a passion but also stay grateful to the universe for everything you have (big or small) at this point.
So it's not the end of the end of the world for you champ! The fact you're now open about your situation on this forum shows you care about your future, although a little later than desired. (but hey better late than never as they say, right). Hope all of this as well as the awesome advice given by others here help ya out! Would def like to know how things go for ya down the road!
All the best to ya!
Udemy: TOGAF9.1 VCE: VCE-CIA LinuxAcademy: LCSA CBT Nuggets: MCSD - Azure Solution Architect Udemy: IBM Cloud Application Developer (Cloud Foundry based PaaS - Very Hot right now) Udacity: Fullstack Web Development & Software Development Process Cloudera: CCA - Spark & Hadoop Developer edX: Microsoft Professional Degree - Data Science
Repeat>Udemy: TOGAF9.1 (Now you'll understand it)
Most of these can be had for very low costs
If you follow this path and acquire the associated credentials, you'll be surprised how much opportunity you'll obtain - all of it lucrative.
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