Hi,
I've got this intern, unpaid, that's not taking me seriously at all. Whenever I give her work to do, she does the absolute minimum, doesn't do it at all or basically tells me no ... She's also taken random days off without asking me or telling me, and two weeks ago took the day off due to a doctor's appointment "around noon". Also took a week off without mentioning a thing to me, and asked my boss the day before... Only I and the other interns see what's happening.
I would tell her to start showing more respect or leave, but she isn't getting paid ... so I don't know what to do really. Additionally, she wants to do financial modeling and work on the due diligences, and 3 months ago I gave her access to my BIWS account to learn to a level that would be enough for her to do real world stuff, but she didn't take advantage of this.
Now she's surprised and bitter that she gets admin work ... I mean out of the last 5 tasks I've given her, she's screwed up 5 ... and I've had to redo them.
Yesterday I asked her to check prices of several conference venues for us, and she basically just sent me links. I mean, I could have done that and it wouldn't have taken me a day... Clearly what I wanted was a spreadsheet comparison to get a quick overview. I told her this in nicer words, and she replied with "I'm just helping Intern 2 right now, I have emailed them so I am waiting on prices. Perhaps split them up between the interns?"
I mean, prioritise what I gave you. Don't steal Intern 2's work that involves things you have no knowledge of because you don't take this seriously.
She's either retarded or... clearly retarded. I can't get her attitude at all, and believe me I've tried while reading. Make her get it straight that if she doesn't want to be there why on Earth she isn't leaving. If she doesn't get it then just kick her out. I guess there wouldn't be any problem. She costs way more than the input she gives back... which for the fact is near to zero.
Since she is costing more of your time than saving, just stop using her. Forget she exists. Unless she's the CEO's daughter, then you're fucked.
She's not. And I'm trying. But then her bitterness radiates through the office, and she has complained to the partner before ... I should tell the partners, but I don't want to seem like the bitter one.
She's definitely wasting my time, and the other interns are very gracefully getting annoyed as well. I put them in charge of a client presentation, and she just dumped info on a slide (1% of the whole presentation) and the other two had to do everything else, plus redo her slides.
She comes from a very wealthy family and is clearly entitled.
The problem with many kids from wealthy families is that since a very young age they experience that almost no matter what, they get their ass kissed. And parents have no time or no interest in giving to them a sight of what reality is and what you have to do to earn money, not your daddy's. She clearly lacks of education and aims. So either let her fly from the office or let her do the photosynthesis.
Dude, you're too polite-- you should fire her or, at least, tell partners first. What power does she have over you?
Also, just a pet peeve, she "acts entitled" or "feels entitled." millennial bashing has caused everyone to start using this word wrong.
fuck her. Literally. She can "add value" to your life in other ways, not just work.
I think you should fire her, everything else is not acceptable. Take yourself more seriously
If you're in an position where it's appropriate, you should give her a very stern talking to. In the case that you have described, you will be doing her a favor by conveying to her an understanding of how other people see and interpret her behavior. If you're not in a position to do this, just ignore her and stop dealing with her entirely, as she's ending up hindering rather than helping you.
If she's your intern, fire her. Make sure to give her a good talking too beforehand.
Get rid man, people would kill for the opportunity she's got.
On the venue thing, a lot of this generation (myself included at times..) love using email instead of picking the phone up and getting a quote. I did it a few times 'Just waiting on an email back..' and all I got was: 'Pick up the bloody phone and call them every hour until you get a reply' - try that?
As others have pointed out, you should sit her down and be straight with her. Normally I would suggest grabbing a coffee, but I don't know if that sets a serious enough tone - at least, not with her who seems to not 'get it', so you really need to be explicit and say 'if you do this kind of shit anywhere, you'll get fired'.
I think it's important to let her know that this kind of attitude and lackluster effort will not stand anywhere. Maybe she's acting like a dick because she thinks it's unpaid so that there is no need to try. Give her a stern warning, and underscore it with 'I'm telling you because I'm trying to help you, and if you turn it around and show me some initiative I will give you more responsibilities as you can handle them'. Honestly, she needs to know for her own good.
You could highlight to your boss you have an issue with the intern, and you spoke with her and giving her a chance to change. And if, even after giving her the talk she doesn't do anything, you can let your team know. Then that way, they know that you've taken a stance (because if you haven't - they might consider this as something you didn't try to solve) and you made an effort to improve it.
This is really surprising... I just didn't expect someone to act like this for an unpaid PE internship. Would have expected a bunch of eager beavers given they probably fought to get an opp, even unpaid. Like... if she doesn't even do the admin work, what on earth does she do in the office all day? I guess she's just using the office as a resume filler...
Exactly ... But our mistake was to give a chance to someone who quite obviously just wanted the glory without the work. Worst part is that it's a wasted opportunity that could have been given to an eager monkey with a 'love' for the industry, not someone who wants the pedigree without putting in the work.
She's leaving in a month, so maybe I just wait it out and simply ignore that she exists. She quite obviously doesn't see me as a superior, even though I'm her direct manager. I mean, it's so shocking...
We were working at a clients' office for a day, the interns and I, for that presentation. I went to sort some admin out for my car for lunch, and when I came back she grabbed her stuff and said bye and left. I asked the other intern where she was going, and he said "I don't know, she said she had obligations" ...
Once she even interrupted a business case presentation with the partners in the room, and said "My taxi is here, I need to go". :O
I didn't think this type of thing happened !
Wow. Yeah seriously, people have been yelled at for far less (even people with good intentions with innocent/minor f--kups). Well if she interrupted a bus case presentation with the partners in the room, then the partners and other coworkers are aware of her actions and probably just think 'whatever, it's an unpaid intern, she'll be gone soon'.
But she's going to get away with having a nice name to her resume and being able to use it to get other job opportunities in the future (where she may or may not act like a horse's ass). Seems like she should get some sort of comeuppance - and not saying this just to be fair to the other interns who worked hard, but really for her sake. Learn a life lesson early on from which she can use that as a turning point.
Oh btw, there's an AMA with a senior female professional (MD/partner level) on another thread. She's doing a great job with Q&A. I doubt this question really warrants advice from her, but I guess if you're curious, you could shoot her a quick rundown of your scenario to see her view. I mean, it would be interesting to see what a senior professional says to something like this (assuming the intern's attitude isn't already obvious to the higher ups).
"Once she even interrupted a business case presentation with the partners in the room, and said "My taxi is here, I need to go". :O"
lol damn. She sounds terrible but also kind of hilarious
I would recommend ignoring her for the rest of the time.
Going to your boss only looks like you might not be able to handle some intern. Do NOT waste your time on her. In case she keeps annoying you, ask her to summarise wikipedia or whatever.
I always think that no help is better than bad help. Normally this even increases your workload...
sht would never fly in s&t - will get publicly reamed in front of every1
Ignore it.
1) Lecturing this person isn't going to do shit. If you get this far in life being this dense it is incurable.
2) I get the sense that she is getting under your skin while everyone else just ignores her. I would take a page from their play book.
3) She obviously sucks and isn't getting paid. And she isn't going to be getting a return off.
I've personally never dealt with this, but can understand how it can be frustrating. Probably the biggest reason I cannot associate with vapid individuals.
Give her a good spanking...figuratively or literally, your choice.
This.
Are you, by any chance, a fan of Archer?
Haven't seen it yet. Should I?
Not so much that she came from a very wealthy family as much as her parents just didn't do a good job raising her. Plenty of poor people have no work ethic, too.
You have to fire her. Aside from her adding no value, it sets a bad precedent for other interns there. They'll tell others that this girl didn't get fired for being useless and insubordinate and others might get a bad opinion of you or your company.
Firstly, just want to say this unpaid internship sounds great - it seems like you give your interns some good work to do. It also seems like you actually care about them, which is a plus.
With regards to the situation - it's not necessary to fire her and derail her career. You do have to speak with her, though, and make it obvious to her that while you're not going to do anything, it's only because she has one month left, and that this sort of attitude will not fly at any other place.
Firing her is probably the best thing you can do for her and her career. Hopefully it will act as a wake up call.
Dude, this situation is too far gone for you to assert yourself. If someone is going around your back and not listening to you when you give simple instructions the issue is already pretty bad.
Just ignore her. She isn't going to give a shit if you put her in her place. She will probably just laugh about it.
I bet that:
1) This chick is super hot 2) She was, will be, or has been banging someone in the office for quite some time 3) You'd look even worse if you tried to take it to your boss this far along in the process. You either stamp a fire out right when it starts or you let the motherfucker burn. Otherwise you just look a bit weak in your ability to manage other people 4) She's never had to worry about money before, and probably never will
Is it bad that this is the best explanation so far?
I would unquestionably fire this person. I would also absolutely not give her a positive reference. Showing you will retain dreadful people is not good for your image, or your firms.
I had a junior who was crappy once. She was beyond realising her attitude was terrible. She spent a lot of time shopping for shoes online.
I spoke to the staffing director and the staffing HR contact about it.
Leave yourself some room to retreat in case you're not seeing the full picture. The phrase I used was "I'm not clear if she just doesn't like doing work for me or just doesn't like doing work at all".
Fired. Why should she have the benefit of showing a completed internship on her resume when she clearly didn't perform the role?
Should have been more assertive from the start. It's all about how you frame yourself. From the initial interaction, I am assuming you framed yourself as someone that could be somewhat of a pushover and that's how she is treating you now.
I hate people like this girl. They want to get the experience and the name on their resume without actually wanting to do anything. I would never let this fly.
Exactly. I initially was the 'friend' rather than boss, and was making it known that we were co-workers rather than boss and intern. I'm not saying that this is bad management, since my partners do it to me, but if you're unlucky enough to work with someone that takes this at face value, then you're going to have a bad time.
But I agree, I should have been more assertive in the beginning and it's probably too late now. I think I'll wait it out and simply ignore her.
Why can't you just tell the partners she sucks if you have such a close relationship with them? I feel like you're overthinking this. Tell the partners how bad she is, and let them decide what to do - it's their firm. I am sure they don't want some intern wasting a full-time employee's time.
IIRC, you were the guy who has 3 partners with 30% stakes and you have a 10% stake in the firm. Doesn't that make you a partner? You may not have the huge stake your partners have, but you still have a significant stake in the firm. The people you hire will have your firm's name on your resume. If she is a lazy slob who is clearly very unprofessional, do you want her to represent your firm when she is interviewing with other banks/firms? I would fire her if she does not shape up after a stern warning.
Update:
I came into the office today, and one of the interns was already here. I asked him where the other intern was and he said "she's not coming in today". I asked why, and he said "I don't know, she said she had family issues". I asked when she told him this, and he said at 23:30 last night ...
This is ridiculous, so unreal.
On the one hand, I understand how this can be frustrating. On the other hand, people earn a lot of money in this business. They earn that money to deal with bosses who act like Leona Helmsley; they earn that money at 11 PM working on some pitch. They earn that money to deal with screaming traders who blame a bad trade on a system that gave garbage out for garbage in numbers. They earn that money to deal with unhappy burnt out teammates who are working 100 hours/week. But she is taking home $0.
It's not insubordination if she's not an employee. Next time pay your volunteers minimum wage and call them employees. Then you have a total right to be pissed when they don't pull their weight. You can waive the whole paycheck in their face and say that you're not getting your ####ing money's worth and they should either start producing or quit.
Hopefully girls like this will spend more time volunteering for NGOs and less time volunteering for banks where employees actually need to work crazy hours to get stuff done, show up to work on time, and have presentation skills. It's annoying and miserable and a waste of time, but she's not an employee. She's proven that you can't depend on her- so don't- and gracefully minimize the time you spend on her. If you're ungracious about this it may hurt future recruiting efforts and it may make you look like an asshole to the other unpaid interns.
But you chose to take volunteers, and you can't exactly treat them like employees. It is hard to call a volunteer's flakiness ridiculous and unreal; volunteers tend to be a lot flakier and can't be expected to put volunteering over their other priorities. You thought they would make your life easier, and most of them have, but one of them hasn't. And you can't be pissed at her like she's an employee.
You can gingerly explain things to them without sounding angry or bitter. Explain what's happened on a few of the projects and how it seems to be more efficient for you to work on this stuff yourself. You appreciate her efforts, but they're not helping the business and you feel like your team can create better work if you devote more of your limited time to the other interns. There have also been some issues with her showing up to work and you're not sure you can reliably get key deliverables out of her.The key here is to explain it honestly and fairly without bitterness or anger to her. She's trying to help- she's helping for free- but the net effect is that she's not helping. So you're being respectful of her desire to help but you're not giving her as many projects. If this were trading or a quant role, I think they'd get it and let you go with that approach. Just remember that she's an unpaid 20 year old volunteer, so you have to treat this with kid gloves.
If you don't have the patience and grace to deal with a 20 year old girl trying to give you free help (but failing miserably), your job must really be making you miserable. There are other jobs out there that will allow you to live just as comfortably that will probably leave you a lot happier at the end of the day. The responsibility for your anger and frustration may ultimately lie more with your job than with her, and it might be worth it to spend a little time thinking about whether you're happy where you are working the hours you work with the responsibilities you have.
I know you're pissed, I know my perspective is going to be a little controversial, but I've worked with a lot of volunteers over the years and there's a huge difference between an employee and a volunteer. I would probably be in agreement with everyone else if she was receiving a paycheck (and you guys would probably be more pissed), but this situation is a little different and you have to treat a 20-year-old volunteer a little differently than a 23-year-old analyst earning a $90K salary when they screw up.
Agree with this. Although wrong and frustrating for the employer - this intern is getting paid $0.00, its hard to stay motivated especially if the intern is older, has experience already, & knows they are scarifying their time for "experience".
Not saying people who don't get paid have a right to slack off, I would be very frustrated as the employer in this situation, but I can also see how the intern could act this way.
This is why, outside of a charitable volunteer organization, I insist on paying everyone at least minimum wage. $7.25/hour + Social Security + UI isn't that expensive in the grand scheme of things in finance and it creates a sense of ownership and responsibility. You give people the sense that they need to be there at 9 AM and do $7/hour worth of work and create some sort of deliverable for their paycheck. Often this deliverable turns out to be worth $30/hour instead of $15/hour than if they act like volunteers and take the job less seriously. A low hourly wage has the risk of sending the wrong signals, but I think those can be managed if first year FT analysts at your firm are paid well.
From a non-business perspective, my experience with leading stuff in volunteer organizations is that you have to be nice to people and the leader has to do the bitch work after everyone chooses their tasks. Obviously, some people aren't cut out to do certain tasks and you occasionally have to gingerly enforce that, but you have to treat volunteers nicely.
This is even more true if you're drawing a paycheck and she isn't.
I, personally, would bench her, but I'd do it very nicely and respectfully and without her really realizing it. Don't give her a lot of stuff to do. Be nice to her, but don't complain, and pretend that she isn't there. If she asks you for work, nicely ask her what she wants to work on. Then hand her some coloring book project that conforms to that.
When interns complain that she isn't pulling her weight, remind them that she is a volunteer. Everyone is volunteering for different reasons. Many interns are getting valuable work experience, learning how to build a pitch, and developing a reputation as great IBD employees. (Don't say anything about her.) Part of working on a team is that some people contribute more than others and this is something that a 20-year-old intern will spend the next 40 years of his career learning to gracefully deal with. Hopefully the ones who are smart enough to realize that they're going to get references and offers and she might not will also be smart enough not to put words in your mouth and generally keep their mouth shut about this.
Welcome to being a manager. Everyone whines to you and gives you a lot of shit and there are severe constraints on how you can respond without pissing off more people. This is why managers earn more money. And you have to be especially ginger with, not interns or employees in this case, but volunteers.
Clearly what you've done so far isn't working and there is no reason for you to believe it will work in the future. She isn't going to listen to a word you say. If you can't stand it anymore and you NEED to get the problem resolved before her last month is up, you're going to need to involve your boss. However, positioning is going to be incredibly important. Here is what I would do:
Find the partner that has been the best mentor to you. The one who gives you continuing encouragement / feedback and genuinely cares about your professional development. Tell him that you need his advice. Say that you've never been in a situation before where an intern disregards your instructions and that you don't know how to deal with it. Offer up the ways in which you've tried to resolve it on your own (coaching, subtle prodding, direct instructions, etc.). If you position it correctly, the Partner will likely do one of two things: 1) give you advice on how to resolve the problem; or 2) deal with it himself. The important thing is that you don't come off as complaining / whining / incompetent, but rather as someone who is sincerely looking to learn from the situation and get advice. If the Partner wasn't aware of it before, you've called it to his attention. If the Partner was aware of it and doesn't care, you'll know just to suck it up for another month. Just be sure you don't hurt your own reputation.
Unpaid intern? Try a novel concept: pay your workers. They might start reciprocating.
This. You literally have no stick with an unpaid intern unless they are reeking with desperation. You can only hope that they take their own word / obligations seriously enough that they perform up to the level they agreed to upon accepting the position. This girl A) clearly doesn't give a shit about you or her "obligations" and B) is not desperate whatsoever. So clearly the wrong person was hired for the wrong situation. I would fire her immediately so the bitch disease doesn't spread to the other interns (but I leave that to you).
The more pertinent question is "What, if anything, do I do differently in the future?" Or more specifically, "Is the cost of paying a minimum wage to my interns greater than the benefits I will receive from the higher quality applicant pool, increased motivation of my employees and my increased leverage over them." IMO, an employee has to be reliable to be valuable. In my experience, the reliability of volunteers is highly questionable.
If you fire her, you now look like an asshole to the other interns, though. Who fires a volunteer? That's like having Santa Claus arrested for trespassing because he brought you a broken toy. Instead you graciously find a way to have him get out of your house quickly.
I think the best solution is to move to a paid system. Then fire her after a week or two when it's obvious that money isn't going to get her to step up to the plate and perform. Or if you continue with an unpaid system, working on live deals and financial analysis should be a privilege. In trading, we start people off with the lunch order before we even think of having them work on anything trading-related. That's a privilege.
I think the problem here is that this unpaid internship isn't primarily about educating and training the interns- it's about trying to get free work out of them on live projects. Further, under this system, if a (free) intern's work isn't worth anything, that's bad for business. Something is wrong with this model- you should not be depending on free work to keep the business running.
Moral of the story: pay your interns. You don't have to pay them much, but paying them something gives them a sense of responsibility.
I understand your points. We do not look for free labour as we generally don't need it, and the interns at this stage don't really provide much value add anyway. I bust my ass to try to keep them as happy as possible, and to teach them as much as I can and let them do things they feel would add most value to them.
We cannot, by law, pay these interns. We provide free accommodation, and more importantly, I personally drove this intern around for 3 months every single day foregoing any pre- and post-work freedom. There was zero gratitude from her, and when the other interns arrived and they were discussing transport, she said "Oh, it's fine, Orkid will drive you".
These interns know that they cannot get paid. This isn't the US, they come here to this emerging market on a tourist Visa. Every summer we also get unpaid MBA interns from Harvard, Stanford and MIT. How come these "volunteers" are as hard working as paid interns would be?
I've been an unpaid intern too, and it didn't turn me into a complete dick.
Moral of the story is "you get what you pay for". In this case, nothing.
Also, the title of the thread is misleading, it should be, "How to be a Beta Manager".
Well, I didn't run a company into the ground. Does that make you Omega?
disagree on the 'you get what you pay for' part, plenty of hard working motivated students that would take her spot in a second and do a great job in exchange for the experience, networking opportunities and intangible perks of the position
My favorite comment in the thread.
I'm astonished. It is obvious she only acts like that because OP lets it happen. The other interns see how beta OP acts and will soon lose respect for the work and the rules.
I don't even think paying her would make that much of a difference. With some people, if you're too soft they'll walk all over you no matter what. I think this is much more OP's fault than the intern's fault. Obviously the job is important to her in some level or she would never come. OP could've fired her, could've lectured her or do a bunch of stuff in between. Instead, OP is going to take betaness to the max by being her b*tch for an extra month. So productivity will still be down as well as morale.
OP, I'm sorry if I'm being rude, but that's ridiculous. It is also very tempting to be rude when your reply is probably going to be something like hiding from WSO for an extra month...
@"IlliniProgrammer",
I disagree with your classification of the intern as a "volunteer." While the compensation that the intern is receiving is not cash, it is certainly quite valuable. But I'll put that aside for the sake of this post.
When a volunteer agrees to help out with a project or task, there is an assumption that the volunteer will put forth at least the minimum required work to complete the task. Even though they aren't getting paid, they still have an obligation to complete the work that they agreed to do. I'll give you an example outside the realm of interns:
You and Mrs. IP (theoretical) want to go hang-gliding one day. Unfortunately, IP Junior is just nine months old and hasn't yet mastered how to land his glider at full speed. Being your good friend, I volunteer to watch over IP Junior for free so you and the Mrs. can go on date night.
Date night comes and you guys have a great time. You come home a little early, 10pm, only to find that I left an hour earlier to go out for drinks with my buddies. You call me up, wondering why I left poor IP Junior alone on the couch without so much as telling you. I politely explain to you that "even though I volunteered to do it for free, I wasn't getting paid, so I was under no obligation to stick around and perform the tasks."
How do you react?
I react by kicking myself for having an unpaid volunteer watch my children and hiring a paid babysitter next time. That someone who didnt have a track record and was working for free would mess up was predictable and is mostly (not entirely) my fault.
You have a point, but this isn't her problem. She's not getting paid. She has nothing at stake in this. OP on the other hand is receiving a salary to do good work. He is trusting an unpaid intern to do his work for him, then gets pissed off at her when free isn't up to par, and he actually has to do the work he's getting paid to do.
We also forgot to mention that this is a 20-year-old. You really can't expect that much. Furthermore according to OP said volunteer was working until 11:30 PM the day before she decided to take the day off. I'm not sure this is what she signed up for either.
Further, OP seems annoyed at having to work with this girl. Why did he get pissed off when she told him she was helping intern #2 and couldn't help him? Wouldn't that be a godsend? I thought he didn't want to work with her. He gets annoyed when she takes two weeks off and doesn't show up to the office- isn't it a little easier to have her away? The girl seems to be trying to find opportunities to stay out of the way- and she's not costing anything- so where is the harm here? I feel like there is an aspect or two to this where OP almost WANTS to be annoyed at her.
I'm not trying to attack OP on this, and I don't think it says anything about him as a person (maybe a little about his job and work environment), but I do think it's helpful to deconstruct a few other aspects to this post. He did come here for advice. And my advice is that he seems to be going out of his way to be annoyed at her. He can either be unhappy if she does shoddy work or he can be unhappy if she's not there or not working with him doing shoddy work. It's hard to be annoyed about both if you're trying to be fair to her. So I think the answer is more nuanced than OP has a bitch working for him. I don't think it says he's a bad person, but I do think OP owns part of this problem, maybe even most of it.
Earlier this year I worked on a project at the Princeton Hackathon with a bunch of undergrads. A 30 year old grad student and I were the project leads. At the last moment, right as the judges were coming, the two of us decided to allow a last-minute release and a 19 year old CS major committed stuff that nearly broke our project.
There were 5 seconds where my face had a look of blind rage at her on it, and I said out loud "How did this happen??" But that was me being an inexperienced manager- wearing my thoughts and emotions on my sleeve.
It wasn't her fault. She was being a 19 year old. We were the idiots with the decade of professional development experience between us who trusted a 19 year old to execute like a 25 year old right before the deadline. She made a minor mistake in execution and we made a massive error in judgment. We told her, as she was sobbing, that this wasn't her fault but that she needs to remember this trauma when she is a manager. Don't trust newbies on something mission critical, and don't make a change 10 minutes before the deadline. And if possible, don't let emotions like rage or frustration come to the surface, because they're often wrong. She had some responsibility for this near-disaster with us desperately working on the keyboard for a minute while the judges waited, but we really had 80-90% of the responsibility. We were the managers, we had the experience, we made the wrong call, and she executed as well as the median 19 year old. (There was an error on one line out of 200 committed and it broke.)
OP earns a salary. It's because he does better work than someone earning $0. If someone earning $0 can't create work at his level, OP doesn't have to pay them a salary. Don't get annoyed, don't even be disappointed. This kind of work is to be expected from a 20-year-old earning $0. Just don't hire her.
I feel like there could be something deeper here. I'm sensing some burnout- like OP might be happier if he took a few months off from work or maybe switch jobs. A healthy, well-adjusted programmer would put up with this. So would a quant, or an accountant. A trader who wasn't miserable would probably also put up with this if she cost $0 and didn't bug him that much during the trading day. Most of us would have the energy to be patient on this because our jobs don't take everything out of us at the end of the day. We don't get pissed off at screaming babies or rambunctious children. And we can deal with a 20 year old who has competence and flakiness and entitlement issues and isn't costing us anything.
So I'm an advocate for being compassionate and gracious here. My answer would be different if she were collecting an annualized $90K or whatever street is these days.
"
We also forgot to mention that this is a 20-year-old. You really can't expect that much. Furthermore according to OP said volunteer was working until 11:30 PM the day before she decided to take the day off. I'm not sure this is what she signed up for either.
"
This is a mistake in that case, she hasn't stayed later than 16:30 on any given day. I must have meant 11:30 AM.
I'm curious how the Hackathon turned out
Seriously. Leave the kid alone. She's unpaid... that is exactly the problem. I once worked unpaid at a boutique bank and hated it and was not productive. I later worked at top BBs/HF and kicked ass. The issue was that i was bored out of mind, I did not feel like I was given meaningful tasks, and I was very mismanaged in the unpaid gig. (I have since come to the opinion that unpaid gigs should be made illegal.)
I do not think the blame is just on this girl. The OP may be part of the problem. And obviously the fact that it is unpaid is a HUGE part of the problem but there's nothing OP can really do about it.
For the record, it would be illegal for us to pay our overseas interns as they come for 3 months on a tourist Visa.
Also, she has now officially disappeared. She sent a short email to the other intern (volunteer) saying she's had a family issue and will be flying home, didn't say anything else but we haven't heard anything from her so are assuming she's left for good.
Whether paid or unpaid, this type of behaviour is inexcusable. I've had unpaid internships but at least I have manners.
She didn't send the email to the rest of the team or you but to the intern? That's hilarious.
I do agree that with an unpaid intern you can't expect a 100% effort, but there should be some sort of minimum because it's a limited spot that you volunteered for and you took over a spot that others want.
EDIT: I just saw your new post about how you personally drove her back and forth from work and you guys provide them with free accommodation. From my perspective - I see this as almost a type of "foreign exchange" learning opportunity similar to what students take in school. It is a learning opportunity. Interns purposely are living in a different region to get experience. They are not getting "paid" - but they ARE getting free living arrangements... in effect, they are 'paid' because they didn't have to cover this themselves, and with whatever free time they have after work or during the weekends, they can use it to tour a region unfamiliar to them. This is different from being an "unpaid intern" back home... in this case, I think more than the minimum should be expected...
She is pretty unbelievable. And it's pretty clear she peaced out but she'll most definitely include your firm on her resume. And given the way she has acted - probably make up some stuff about what she did over the summer.
muthafuckas are acting like if you threw this floozy 7/hr she would all of a sudden be a stellar employee. get the fuck out of here with that bullshit
Isn't the idea of an unpaid internship to gain experience which may eventually land you a paid position in the future? Ultimately, her defiance is because she believes her position is A. Guaranteed, B. Will take her some place better in the future.
OP. Talk to your partners, threaten to renege on a good reference letter if she does not improve her behaviours. Give her benchmarks and ensure an associate helps guide her through achieving these goals. Getting an associate to work with her will take her off your ass and open up a more willing intern to work with you. It will also help her build a "fresh start" with a new face and hopefully reform her behaviour.
Slash and Burn tactics don't work. If she is in the firm for the foreseeable future, work out a utilitarian step-by-step plan. Look up Restorative Justice, it's really quite effective.
She left. It's over. Thank God. You can stop being pissed now.
Paying her might help.
Can't believe she does not take the internship seriously. People like me would do anything just to get a shot at this internship.
If the intern comes back I would say to take a previous poster's sarcastic advise completely seriously. Hand her a coloring book and a box of crayons and tell her to color. If she can do it between the lines, you'll give her something a little bit harder.
Wow this chick sounds like an ass
I think you and this person are writing about each other
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/dealing-with-a-crazy-boss
In all seriousness, what she isn't costing your company in wages she is costing your company in time and effort. Lucky for you she's out and you now have extremely valuable information on who not to hire if you're ever a hiring manager.
Step 1 - delegate your chauffeur/driving duties. Step 2 - profit!
You get what you pay for. Literally. Also, try actually communicating to her that she's shit and needs to improve else she's fired. It's not that fkin hard. Talk to your boss if you're too pussy to do anything about it yourself. You're doing the same thing as her - instead of calling the venues(telling her she needs to change), you just send an e-mail and wait(you let her do as she pleases, don't take any action, do some backwards implicit things).
That she's unpaid is irrelevant. I slashed and burned my way through a list of more qualified competition by offering to work for free. It was my way to get a foot in the door and I cranked out so much work that they thought I had someone helping me...I'm sure I'm not the only guy in finance who broke in like this.
The simple fact is she doesn't give a fuck, and there's nothing you can do to reach people in that state of mind.
Fire her in front of everyone saying "Listen, everyone else here is happy to be doing this work and you're killing the morale of my group by not giving a shit and acting like we owe you better assignments. I actually had hoped to reach you, but you just don't care. I can't have that here, we all work too hard and I don't think this industry is for you."
Then take everyone out for drinks. This way you show you're not fucking around, but they still like you. Make sure you have an MD or someone backing you so she can't go to someone else and weasel her way back in.
Doesn't this happen all the time? Is it surprising that an unpaid intern doesn't care about their job and doesn't care about a future career in finance?
I'm really confused as to why this thread is generating so many responses and full disclosure if this was addressed before I didn't read as I think analyzing this situation in this much detail is ridiculous.
That part that gets me is that you are getting owned by an unpaid intern to the point that you have to come to an online message board to ask for advice about it.
Let us know how this plays out.
Haha that's what I keep thinking. Time to grow some balls OP
You're the type of person that gets told to do the elephant walk and actually does it.
Punch her in the face.
Everyone who has mentioned it, especially @"IlliniProgrammer", has hit the nail on the head: You get what you pay for. Your firm is basically exploiting slave labor (not a judgment on my part, I realize almost every firm does it these days) and then expecting the slave to have some personal investment in the Excel plantation.
It's nonsense, and our industry is short-sightedly missing an opportunity to lead by example and do away with unpaid internships. The positive press alone would be worth it, not to mention the demonstrably better results that can rightly be expected from employees with actual skin in the game. These kids aren't stupid, they know what's up, and they're going to do the absolute minimum because that's all they're getting in return - a name on their resume.
This isn't directed at the OP (other than to point out that his expectations are completely out of whack) but at the broader financial industry. It's time to cut the shit and quit exploiting kids who are trying to break in.
Read my post and think it through again. There are plenty of scumbaggy folks taking advantage of long term free 'internships'. The reality is that it's more complicated than a simple pro/con stance. There's probably a LOT of people who had to really go the extra mile to get where other people started, and in the case of working for free it's the only way to get on the map.
"exploiting kids"... seriously? i'm surprised you feel this way. they aren't slaves. they are willfully signing up to do the position and as long as they are made fully aware of what's expected of them and what the benefits are then it sounds like a fair agreement to me.
you have to consider that if all unpaid internship were cut that a lot of students who would otherwise qualify for a paid internship may be left with nothing. i would imagine* the reality matches expectations for the majority of unpaid interns and many would report their time/experience to have been worthwhile
*obviously my perspective is coming more from the startup model and the interns that we have
Completely agree. Money is rarely the only incentive for an internship. There are plenty of non-monetary incentives and benefits that are involved in pretty much everything. And if seven dollars can actually have a drastic impact on someone's behavior then you have to wonder what they're doing there in the first place. There are plenty of ways to get seven dollars including bagging groceries and running a lemonade stand.
I think the OP should have put in the original post that the firms pays for their housing expenses and some other things so it's not entirely unpaid and they aren't allowed to pay them a wage per government as everyone posting after the OP added that information is still on him about not paying the interns..
Tell her that if she does not get her act together then she can expect very poor performance review/reference--this is your leverage over her. After all, the reason she is doing this non-paid internship is to have something positive on her resume which would help her land other internships, SA and full time offer. Having a terrible review from one internship stint would pretty much derail her whole plan.
If she still doesn't listen, then go talk to HR. Tell them that her insubordination and incompetence is seriously affecting your own productivity, and ask them to have her dismissed/replaced.
Find out if firing her will piss off someone else. Maybe she's related to someone there or she f***ed someone to get the job. Once your good to go, pull the trigger. You won't come off as a jerk because the other interns know that she is useless.
If someone asks why you kept her on for so long, tell them that you tried to work it out instead of pushing her overboard right away
Well, it's over. We haven't heard a thing from her since last Wednesday. Just disappeared.
For those saying "you get what you pay for":
Anyone who is serious about breaking into Finance will work their ass off, paid or unpaid. She got a spot that some other kid would have killed for.
We offer free accommodation, and I was driving her to and from work (my own prerogative, being nice and polite because this chick doesn't have a drivers license at 25 y/o, and public transport here is shit. Not once did she offer to pay for some petrol, that came out of my own pocket. I guess she thinks petrol is free.).
For those calling me a pussy:
This is not a BB firm with HR departments and thousands of people. It's 4 partners and me. Unless you understand the dynamics of a small office like that, don't call me a pussy.
Like someone said: I've learned my lesson, I know who not to employ now. I took a chance with this non-target "trying to break-in" chick, and apparently made a huge mistake. What's funny is that I'm sure she hasn't gone home at all, I think she's actually just vacationing here now (it's summer and plenty of beaches). I'm sure i'll run into her at some point.
So now you're not going to hire people who come from a non-target? You still haven't learned anything. She walked all over your ass only because you let her.
And to admins, was my previous comment erased b/c I said OP didn't have cajones?
It's not about cojones*, it's about office politics and treading carefully when the firm consists of 4 partners and me.
I do wonder if the people that give lip over the internet really are the same people that would piss their pants in real life ...
Did you think to check the place where she is staying to see whether she really did leave? If she's still shacked up in firm housing and chilling on the beaches after she said she left the country because of a family emergency, that's your trump card right there. Sounds like this girl really is dumb enough to not have checked into a hotel or something by now...
Hooray shes gone! She can say on her resume that she had an internship... But it doesn't do her any good if she can't get a reference from her superior when looking for a new job. I've refused to be someones reference for less (not i-banking related however).
Was she hot?
Okay, let me take a minute to clarify what I meant.
I think Wall Street as an industry should move away from unpaid internships entirely. It's not worth the bad press and the opportunity for abuse. That said, I completely understand why a motivated individual would not only be willing to work for free, but would also do a bang-up job. This has been my personal experience in finance.
Aside from my first 90 days in the business when I was afforded a $1,080 monthly draw, I worked for nada, zip, zero. No salary, no draw, no nothing. I got paid entirely on performance with no upper limit, and therefore had every reason to work my ass off to the exclusion of everything else in my life. It was a choice I was willing to make and I was one of the fortunate souls for whom that choice ultimately worked out.
The funny thing is, there were no unpaid internships back then. Even though I was a young guy just starting out who was so broke that if it cost a nickel to take a shit I'd have had to throw up, I was still expected to pay cash out of pocket if I wanted to bring a college kid in to cold call for me. So there were plenty of days when my "intern" (whom I was teaching the business and who benefited from my network) made more money in my office than I did. It's just the way it worked out.
Just to circle back to my original point: Wall Street should move away from unpaid internships and adjust their staffing needs accordingly. Will it mean fewer people get a shot at landing a job? Absolutely. But it will also mean more paid positions and/or higher pay for those who do make the cut. Plus then no one can say that multinational banking conglomerates are taking advantage of impoverished college kids.
@EddieBraverman - can you run a boxing match for the above two? The beta/alpha thing is sooo worn out coming from a bunch of desk jockeys. Boxing on 4 hours of sleep, the new dominant monkey fad.
I'd like to see drunken boxing with whisky shots between each round. 3 rounds would do, with 4 shots in the hour leading up to the bout.
LOL @Orkid thinks he is some sort of tough guy! "You wouldn't say shit in real life."
No, I definitely would, and you wouldn't do shit back.
Emerging markets, right? Probably some beta Asian. You put the pretty white pussy on a pedestal, and she broke your back climbing on up that pedestal.
South Africa.
Still beta.
Wait, does that mean all your threats about "say it to my face and see what happens" mean that you would rape the guys who talk shit to you?
I mean, I know that is pretty common down there.
No sympathy at all for you or the firm. You get what you pay for.
Wow that escalated quickly. If you want to berate people, please take it to youtube, specifically any Justin Bieber video.
Orkid, the intern's half-assed effort and poor communication skills will catch up with her eventually. But now she's not your problem, so I would shake it off and think about replacing her with a hungry, driven intern (maybe even from this site).
yahoo comments man, that shit is the worst but hilarious at the same time
https://www. youtube. com/watch?v=vFgXF0a_Yw4
Nice to see this thread completely derailed.
All it ever takes is one passing comment to start a domino effect
RulesofWSO
I understand you're pissed off. But I'd say your best strategy is to ignore her. Be nice to her and continue giving her administrative work. If she's not satisfied with the work, ask what she wants to do and give her some related work that no one actually cares about. After all, she will be gone in less than a month.
You probably can't do anything right now. Not everyone has the power to fire someone. If your bosses notice the tension between you and the intern, nicely explain (not complain), if they don't notice that's even better. She's gonna be gone in less than a month!
Not everyone is as driven, even though finance probably has the highest concentration of career-minded people, you still have some people in finance who clearly had no clue what they were getting into. These include unpaid interns, paid interns, analysts, associates etc.. Do you have to be pissed every time you see one? If it's of any consolation, they are not going to get anywhere in their career, and they probably won't even realize until someone points it out to them in a very harsh way.
Lol, congrats on not reading any of the thread comments. She's gone.
You fucked up man. Assuming she is hot, if you fired her you would have had a chance to take her to pound town. Now your chances of getting laid if you run into her are pretty low. That being said I would keep an eye out for her next time I was at the beach just for the vindication of knowing that she is indeed crazy/a slut. Yes, judging by her attitude I could totally she her being quite promiscuous.
I am with you though, paid or unpaid do your best, it speaks to your character. Plus if she is so fucking loaded I doubt 100 rand/hr would really incentivize her to buckle down.
You're a kind hearted gent for lasting as long as you did.
The comment on 'interns don't add value' are really disgusting. Really, that 1h on fixing the excel files thrown at you in hurry ? that model develloped for half a day or for days, that "useless" canvas made for future presentations ?
All those think that you the 'senior' just take for granted don't add values ? come on men seriously this is disrepectful for the interns work.
I've got interns completing grids for me, it looks petty work (still needed to advance the case) in the grand scheme of things BUT while they where doing that, I could focus on more important things. Respect interns work and remenber you yourself where once one "no-value-adding" monkey too.
WSO seems to be reliving Lehman Brothers' 1983 breakdown where the traders and bankers all hated each other and started a civil war. Unfortunately @DickFuld seems to be on the side of the bankers this time.
Hey @UFOInsider : pass the popcorn and the scotch, will ya?
+1 I'm loving this too. They're arguing about a problem that's resolved. Masters of the Universe indeed.
Someone doesn't do their job, put them on the chopping block and control for politics. And then she left, so I don't even get what this is about. Two geeky office slave paper pushers arguing about who's less "beta" or whatever....hahaha
Oh man, I gave some good advice, and then missed the, like, two other pages of comments on this.
Why in the fuck would you sit there and reward her for the shit she was doing (essentially: not producing, insubordination, etc) by chauffeuring her to work at a job she didn't couldn't give less of a fuck about?
Plus, you would've had more than enough opportunity to talk to her about her performance during said car rides. Huh.
I think that you definitely, DEFINITELY need some help in managing to expectations: this is a skill that can be learned, but you have to take the time to learn it. When this sort of behavior exposes itself, you have to learn how to deal with it if you ever expect to be in a position that involves managing others.
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