Is it really THAT bad with Deutsche Bank & UBS?

I don't think you should avoid those banks, but I would imagine that they have lower return offer rates/are laying people off more frequently than the other bulge brackets and elite boutiques. If that's the case, I would say definitely apply, but if you have a better offer, take it. In addition, if you are at one of those banks and they have some massive series of layoffs (that is known through the finance world) and you get laid off, I'd think that places you'd interview at would be fairly understanding.

Just my two cents

Truthfully as much as it hurts me to say it, it's nearly just as competitive to get into those banks as it is for the top BBs. The competition will still be killer just because any BB name still has a strong brand name and opens many more doors than a top MM shop (non eb)

Regarding UBS: I have the same perception, many people were made redundant in the IB divisions. Very likely that this trend will continue...

Re DB: it is true that they have layoffs, however mostly in markets where they are withdrawing operations + downsizing in Germany (commercial banking). For IBD, this years analyst class is one of the biggest ever. This applies only to Europe: still "good" in the league tables, some teams had major hits (e.g. chemicals), but other teams are still competing with the american counterparts. Regarding the stress test: the american subsidiary had a Core Capital ratio of 30%, this is not why they failed. they failed due to qualitative reasons, because the it at db is so shit that they couldnt produce the asked information.

i may be a bit biased but i dont feel that db is going down the shitter!

It's not as bad as people make it out to be, but definitely something to think about if you are into banking as a longer-term path. Don't think UBS in NY / Europe is that bad. DB is in an extremely rough patch so hard to say what the longer term outlook will be.

DB gets paid below street, in my opinion. Below the other Bulges.

Beyond that, I think the IBD class in the U.S. hasn't seen much downsizing as what was expected and the layoffs have been overblown in the U.S.

OH NO MY FRAGILE EGO AND ITS PREFTIGE!!

(I am not at either of these banks, so its safe to say they both totally suck ass.)

Sure, and I bet competition to get into Bear was just as fierce going into '08

I mean they are towards the bottom of the M&A league tables. What you expect

Had a Director at one of those banks tell me they couldn't help because they were trying hard to get out. Sounds like a sinking ship to me.

Both these banks are still BBs-- not considering them at all would be a little extreme. They're both in different places right now.

UBS has already finished the majority of its cuts and at this point is comfortable with the size of its investment bank (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-07-12/ubs-s-orcel-signals-h…). While it definitely is a smaller BB, the focus of management is on return on equity and not league tables. Can also add that morale is pretty high at the bank right now, and that offer rate for the summer was in line with past years (60-75%).

DB is having some issues in the press and is about to start reducing its presence, which is why there is some risk in going there. Keep in mind that it is a major financial institution that is not going anywhere, but expect a few years of lower comp/layoffs. Can't speak too much to the internal situation but that's my two cents.

Also its important to keep in mind that UBS/DB (along with CS/MS/GS) are all focused on cutting S&T jobs not advisory. Overall the BBs are hiring less not more, so ignoring 2 of the 9 is probably not in your best interests.

For DB: Temporary pain, still a BB I'd love an opportunity to work for For UBS: Place has been a piece of shit since their top deal makers left in the mid 00's, and the financial crisis. Great place to do PWM, and maybe ER (as an extension of it's PWM strength). Banking there (from personal experience) is a joke.

To the OP, it's the way the original poll question was phrased. By asking "which one the following:"....you have to pick SOMETHING. If someone said which mega-fund would you least want to work for, which ivy is the worst for getting a job on Wall Street, or which Victoria Secret model you'd least want to sleep with; the answers given wouldn't necessarily mean that those choices weren't high quality. It just means out of an ELITE group, they place towards the bottom. They are overall still really good in the big scheme of things.

As a current Associate at UBS (been here for 2 years), I'd be hard pressed to characterize the IB as a sinking ship.

The real "downsizing" people generally reference already occurred in 2011-2012 time frame whereas many of the European BB counterparts (i.e. Barclays, DB, Credit Suisse, etc) are now forced to make those restructuring efforts (or so goes the argument).

In all honestly, there are a couple reasons folks are getting laid off these days (as I see it): 1) the specialization/product/sub industry niche for some senior bankers makes less sense over the next handful of years 2) there isn't a forseeable role for the upcoming MD to service clients that isn't already covered by an existing banker 3) the market in general isn't supplying that many revenue opportunities so in response the bank will allow attrition or let some folks go who are lower relative (key word) performers

If you're a student looking to join a good bank with strong exit opportunities the decision process is no different than choosing which school you want to go to. In my view, as a junior banker the only difference you're getting is a brand. Some people will suggest that there isn't as much deal flow at certain banks and follow up with a bank that is in the top 10 of every league table as an example, but that doesn't make any sense.

The reality is, if you're a strong performer, people will want you on their deals and deal flow won't be an issue. Further, if you're trying to move on to the Carlyles, Apollos, KKRs, etc of the world there are senior bankers at all of these IBs who have relationships with these funds.

The point is, in my opinion, UBS is still a strong offer to land. There is strong deal flow for top performers, there are a lot of groups with great culture and the IB management has put a lot of focus on finding new ways to create a work life balance for junior bankers (which is huge).

Hope this helps.

P.s. - In my view the best responses have come from Sil and giantsfan349. Also, maybe I don't follow the "return offer" statistic well, but most of kids who summer and don't return find that banking isn't for them, not that the particular bank they summered for isn't good.

[Sorry for the typos]

Because they're not prestigious. The BB prestige rankings go:

1. GS
2. MS
3. JPM
4. CS
5. Citi
6. Barclays
7. BAML 8/9. DB/UBS

DB and UBS are the Cornell and Brown of the Ivy League.

what about SunTrust Robinson Humphrey guys..guys...

I worked at UBS a few years ago and one issue was always the 'hodge podge' of groups that were put together from various other banks where the firm hired out of and how the culture didn't always fit together. I'd assume that might have changed now and probably has given all the departures but something to consider. UBS is a shell of its former self given that Stamford and 299 Park are both shut down now - back in the day the traders in Stamford had a huge say in what direction the firm went.

From being on the UBS WM side, I can tell you that is where most of the jobs and focus is. The 2011 trader incident seems like it hurt IB pretty bad, and thats where the axe fell hardest with the layoffs in the years that followed. Seems to me like things have settled down since then. I would apply. If it's your only option I wouldn't hesitate to accept an internship with either. You can still expect heavy competition even for the UBS and DB internships.

Now, obviously Rachel is pretty hot. Monica is quite the looker, too, especially if you're more into brunettes. And Phoebe is, well... Phoebe.

If Phoebe shows up naked at my house at 2 in the morning after I've had a couple of drinks, I'm probably not gonna say no.