Hey everyone,
I'm currently a rising junior at a non-target working an IB and a PE internship this summer. Leading to this year I was a horrible student, drifting on through life and having no care in the world. I just recently started getting my shit together like three months ago and managed to get my fist internship in Spring 2019 in FP&A. I am now working at a PE (remote) and an IB internship Summer of 2019. I know that GPA matters a lot in IB, obviously, but mine is shit... 3.0 high ranked certifiable shit (I've even retook classes, eek). Yet, I managed through and ungodly amount of networking land a PE and IB internship this summer, and might have a spot lined up for Fall 2019 or Spring 2020 and am looking to network a spot into Summer 2020.
The only light at the end of the tunnel is that my Major GPA (Finance and minor in Accounting) is 4.0 so far. I plan on keeping it that way till I graduate in Fall of 2020, hopefully. I just market my Major GPA on my resume.
I guess my question is am I beating a dead horse getting these internships at Boutique banks if my GPA is trash? Are my chances at working at a BB firm impossible to achieve after graduation? I have a good amount of connections all throughout Chicago that work at these BB banks, but I'm still unaware even getting my foot in the door matters if my GPA is hot ass. Also, when it comes to a full time offer after graduation the boutiques don't usually extend full time offers after internships based off the networking I've done.
What would you guys do in my position? Should I still ride the IB train or throw out my dreams and go intern in consulting or PWM (I know people working in these fields too).
Thanks in advance.
I think it means you will have a much harder time getting an interview without a referral. You will simply be filtered out a lot. Networking is key for 99% of us anyway, so double down on that. When networking, don't ever bring it up. This is just a guess obviously, but based on your post I could envision you finding away to mention your GPA concerns with people that could refer you. This is unnecessarily self-deprecating; sell them on the Finance 4.0 instead. Just list your 4.0 in Finance on your resume (obviously specifically saying that it's your Finance GPA) and don't list the 3.0. You will still have to put it in applications, but otherwise you should simply shift focus.
You should also cast a very wide net. Be flexible on geography, try for roles that could be easy to switch to IB after a year or two, and hit every bank you can find, not just BB and EB (there are a ton).
Oh, and definitely get 4.0's for all your remaining semesters.
Yeah i ned to double down on the networking for sure. I actually never bring it up or mention it to anyone. The only time I've ever talked about is now on this forum haha.
What roles would you suggest that transfer over well? Corp Fin? Yeah, I plan on applying anywhere and everywhere. Of course it would be great to work full time at BB, but I'm happy with any full time offer after college in IB.
Thanks for the response man.
The roles that have good lateral potential:
Corporate Banking
Valuation
Corporate Finance
Big 4
Commercial Banking
There's also another recent thread that has some discussion of good lateral roles.
Thank you my man for all the help. I'll look into it.
Is doing an IB and PE internship the same summer good to do? Or will interviewers find you as a person that isn't committed to one firm?
I never thought it would come off that way. I assume they know it’s an internship at Boutiques so it’s really just for the experience. And if they see I’m working three internships in the summer it can show I’m hardworking.
At least that’s how I saw it.
I definitely was going to do the same thing this summer. However, a friend noted to me that considering there's high analyst turnover, they would look at 2 internships in a bad way
You're at a nontarget and you're GPA is below a 3.5, both of those would get you thrown out of the automatic screening in the online applications. So you have to network, even if you had a 4.0 you'd have to network. I'd list major GPA as 4.0 on your resume. Solely because of that I think you still have a shot at BBs and EBs. I've heard a lot of Chicago firms have already given offers though so not sure how feasible that is, and if I'm right, maybe focus on NY.
That being said, before I saw 4.0 major, and just saw 3.0, I'd have said your only shot would be at boutiques. I'm interning at a boutique right now and they have a policy of not hiring right out of undergrad (only laterals). They've recently hired two people who did internships at this firm and are right out of undergrad. They've increased deal flow and need the analysts. PM me and I'll name the firm as you may have a shot in the future. This can be true at other places, and like always, it's a numbers game, and the more places you reach out to the better chance you have getting hired.
I'd shoot for both. Aim for a BB/EB, expect a boutique. Definitely possible to do either
In the case of online screening for GPA it’s not just based off what’s on the resume, right? They have an AI look at GPA? Because I have 4.0 on my resume.
And yes from as much as I know know most Chicago firms have our offers already. Should I apply to NY for full time or summer spots? I still haven’t started my IB internship, so on my resume should I just put “Incoming IB Analysts” then send out my resume?
Yeah I plan on applying everywhere. I made a spreadsheet of all BB and EB in Chicago and plan on cold calling and sending emails.
Thanks for all the information I appreciate it. Also, check your PM.
Yeah it's based off of what's on your resume and what number you enter in on their application. But again, the online application typically doesn't yield anything for nontarget students. You'll need a referral from networking. Focus on NY for summer spots. If you get one and you like it you can stay, if you want Chicago you can recruit for FT with a return offer as a backup. If you don't recruit for NY and get no internship, it's incredibly difficult to get a FT position without any IB experience. Put incoming analyst on your resume, I did that too.
No its not impossible. I don't see why you can't get a BB internship and FT offer.
Feel better? Great, now keep grinding.
Feel like I can take on the world after this comment
Why did you have a low GPA to begin with? This is what I'd like to know if I were interviewing you. For me, a low GPA is an automatic ding. If you were either lazy or dumb even just your freshman year in college, I would worry about your mentality and if you can consistently handle long hours doing tedious analyst work. Investment banking, consulting, and most every other high end professional services career don't require you to be any sort of genius. But all those careers require you to work hard and persevere through some mundane shit--especially in your early years. If I see a low GPA, I imagine a low IQ or a low drive. Both are rather problematic for any professional services job.
That said, it's obviously not impossible to land a top job, but you are going to have to overcome that specific bias that I just described. I don't want to be a huge dick, but I went to less than maybe 1/3 of all my classes in college and both graduate schools I attended (top targets studying math, physics and economics) and got a 3.8 GPA. I didn't try very hard, but I'm fairly clever. I value cleverness above almost all things, so when I see a low GPA in a weaker subject than math, physics or engineering (I don't highly rate undergraduate finance or economics), I imagine that you're dumb. If I were interviewing you, I'd first attempt to assess if you're smart and then secondly ask why if you're sufficiently clever you still got poor grades in a relatively easy subject. If you were able to satisfy my curiosity on both those points, I wouldn't have a problem hiring you, but your story can't be as simple as 'I didn't realize school was important until I saw the potential for making money in my junior year.' To me, that means you lack intellectual curiosity, which is the thing that makes people clever in the first place.
i can see how your post could come across as a weird thing to say but i completely agree. One of my classmates absolutely killed every single class EXCEPT the numerical ones (calculating wacc/irr by hand and using it to discount). He was perfect on paper until he encountered unstructured learning that requires patience and perseverance. My point is, its easy to just read and recite stuff for good grades or put in hours for coursework. Studying subjects like math/physics/engineering requires a different skillset(thats a lot more valuable imo) and if you don't have that, it speaks volumes about your character. And people like @brotherbear will notice that. Long story short, make sure you do well in the hard modules.
P.S @brotherbear Don't say "I'm fairly clever", it makes you sound dumb. "Clever" people will never say this because they know they could be much better or its just not appropriate. Its no different than a model saying "Im pretty". Why would you say that? In addition to this, intellect is subjective. You may see someone as a genius, while others see him as a pompous idiot.
P.S.S OP, don't examine your career path in granular detail. You seem to have a great network & lined up experience. Get your grades up and you'll be fine. Worst case, you'll start out in Chicago and eventually lateral to another job/city of your taste.
I don't think it makes me sound dumb to say that I'm fairly clever. I did so in the context of explaining why a low GPA would be difficult for me to accept. There are three main reasons someone might have a low GPA--extenuating circumstances, low intellect or low drive. The preponderance of people with low GPAs fall into the latter two categories, so on a balance of probability, I'd automatically ding someone for poor grades.
No one wants to be seen as lacking motivation or lacking intelligence, so in the event the OP were to get interviews for competitive positions, he needs to have a believable explanation of his extenuating circumstances that led to his mediocre academic performance for the first year or two of college. Even in the case that there were some legitimate conditions that led to the sub-par performance, his explanation shouldn't center on an inability to attend class.
As I said, I didn't attend a lot of classes and didn't have performance issues. I explained that I am fairly clever not just because I'm arrogant (which I am), but because it covers one of the two primary explanations for poor performance. In my case, I'm relatively lazy but clever enough to make up for it in an academic setting. I probably wouldn't hire someone like me because it's more important to be hard-working in this field than smart (so long as you are sufficiently brainy). I suspect the OP is smart enough to do the work, which means his performance issues probably come down to a lack of motivation which I find more problematic because I wouldn't want to hire someone who is clever but lacking in drive.
After all, I-banking and consulting are far less cerebral than we all might like. They require stamina and the motivation to stick it out through all the tough times. That's the main reason GPA matters--it's a signal (not the only one, but an important one) that you possess the right personality for the job. The false positives come from people like me who are clever enough to do well without trying especially hard. Ideally, banks and consultancies don't want to hire a lot of people like me because we're not particularly diligent workers. In providing the context I did around my intellect, I gave a fuller explanation of my rationale than I would have otherwise been able to do. At the risk of sounding arrogant to some people on a forum I will never meet, I gave what I consider to be objectively better advice. That's a fair trade.
Classic prospective monkey saying a certified Director in VC sounds dumb. Jesus F Christ
Yeah, for me I never had to study and I can easily get A's in classes that weren't numerical. It does require a different skill set, on I didn't care or have the time to develop early on. After my few introduction courses on finance that require all formula work I realized that, but adapted soon enough.
Thanks for your reply!
Banking is a hilarious industry.
Most of these kids are fucking incels that are better at jabbing their resumes at me during a happy hour than they are at jabbing their dick into a vagina, nevermind having a conversation or drink with anyone
Just a humble brag here from this dude.
Surely if you're so clever - you realize that there's more to people than GPAs?
Stop perpetuating an archaic recruiting manager stereotype and help change the system for the better Big brain.
That could also mean that you’re really smart. People probably don’t need to halfass their way to 3.8 in hard subjects to be considered intelligent. On that note, are you using the word “dumb” appropriately here? Because I feel like you’re carpet-bombing with it. Otherwise agree with your point.
Like most of my posts, I wrote my original response to this thread while inebriated. Clearly, it annoyed some people, but in rereading it, I 100% stand by everything I said. There are a lot of kids who work very hard and are very clever, and we can't even give all those kids a shot. Some people aren't meant to work for others, but if you're starting from nothing and hedging your bets, building capital through professional services by trading your time for money is one of the best ways to start. As a result, there are shitloads of talented people vying for the same spots, all of whom have rather similar resumes.
You have almost no means of differentiating yourself from your peers on a resume while in college aside from the school you attend, the major you select and the GPA you get. The only other thing you can do is some extracurricular shit. But I don't give half a fuck if you were in the finance club at any university. In fact, if you were in that club, I'll probably think you're too much of a try-hard. As I have said many times before, it's MUCH, MUCH better to make yourself into an interesting person than to cultivate a particular resume you think someone like me might like one day. That said, a high GPA isn't a lot to ask for since you need to be really fucking interesting to overcome a low one and it's easier to do well in school than it is to become interesting.
This post should be in the hall of fame of this website. Perfectly captures why GPA is so important, and why a low GPA is so suspect, even if it was just freshman year. Half of my friends are idiot frat boys who think they're going to be able to bullsh*t their way to an amazing offer. They don't realize there are plenty of frat bros who still hustled and earned a 3.7 or better GPA. It demonstrates you're either lazy, inconsistent, or just low watt. If you were in charge of hiring, why would you take a risk on anyone that had a history of one or more of those traits when there are thousands of kids with seemingly none of those traits begging for an offer?
Long hours and tedious work was the main reason my grades were low. I worked 40+ hours during school to support my family when my father couldn't. so I wouldn't say that my issue. My issue has to be developing the correct study habits and work ethics that i have time for now.
I'm glad that you were one of the ones that didn't have to show up to class and can preform well. But, not everyone has the luxury of being as "clever" as you. I agree with everything the route I was on was not smart and I did lack intellectual curiosity, but that's why I'm here. Trying to fix my shit.
Thanks for your response. Granted me a good perspective, I need to get my story straight.
To
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