2/25/13 update: Ampharos has now been working in consulting for 5+ months and said he can continue answering questions regarding MBB, recruiting, breaking in, day to day life, etc, ask away!
Hi Guys,
5+ months ago I started working at my top-choice MBB firm full time after receiving my offer through the company's accelerated interviewing process. I've gotten a lot of help (and entertainment) from this forum so I'd love to give back and answer any questions or give some advice/insight on interviewing, networking, etc.
I was a career counselor at my school focusing on consulting primarily helping MBAs and undergrads with case prep, so I'm familiar with a lot of the issues people have and will try to give professional, no-BS answers.
I'd prefer not to disclose the firm, my school, or my internship firm for obvious reasons so let's try to avoid those.
For my stats:
School: Target, public undergrad b-school
GPA: 3.5-3.8
Internship: Summer analyst at tier 2 consulting firm
Practice: Several dozen live cases, Victor Cheng, LOMS, etc. etc.
tldr: ask me questions about recruiting things if you want. I'll do my best to respond. Post or PM.
first of all congrats...
second.... I'm working full time at provincial government health agency, operations anaylst role, I have a diploma from a college and i just started at university geting my degree (they are putting me into 3rd year) so considering I am a few years away from actually applying which of the many "consulting training programs" would you recommend I use to practise and gear up to be a strong applicant?
third... what is your take on Pro-Bono Volunteer Consulting firms?
fourth... what is an accelerated FT offer?
Thank you, haha.
The free resources (videos and articles) from Victor Cheng were very helpful to me. I personally got his Look Over My Shoulder system which I thought was really useful as well, but it's optional.
Do you mean pro-bono volunteer as in student organizations or as in a large nonprofit strategy firm? For both the former and latter I think they're great, but for the latter, I'll admit I'm unfamiliar with the exit opportunities for them.
I had my interview process accelerated due to an exploding offer from my internship firm. I had my final round interviews and received my offer before regular students had their first round interviews.
This is slightly confusing.
confusingish
Well, the only reason I say that is getting a consulting offer with below a 3.8 at our school is considered a little unusual.
EDIT also no more -ish.
Hey Thanks for posting. I would love to connect and pick your brain about a few things. I have my final round at an MBB in a week and a half. This is my dream situation and I networked pretty hard to get the initial interview.
I would love to get your thoughts on really standing out especially at the final round point. I am from a non-target with a mediocore GPA (similar to the above) and am currently doing Teach For America.
Let me take a guess
UVA McIntire --> Bain
hahaha
Congrats to that offer! I'm currently a junior seeking to work at MBB post-grad. So I have a few questions in regards to your situation.
I thought MBBs don't do accelerated interview process? Or is this because you knew someone and had an offer on hand? And how is this process different than standard?
For MBB, do you think it's best to go for tier 2 consulting firms, or to recruit for BB SA positions as well? If Management Consulting is what I want to do immediate after graduation?
Who did you practice with? Friends, older students with experience, then professionals at MBB or consulting firms? And what do you think is the best way of approaching professionals to practice cases?
Thanks again, and congrats! Have fun with rest of the year!
I've heard mixed things, but I've known people who've done accelerated with all three, and saw a healthy group of people at my accelerated final rounds (half a week before regular first rounds) at the office when I went. Part of it was definitely having good conversations with the people I reached out to, but I think the bigger player here was the exploding offer at a competitor. They also still looked at my resume of course. The process was the same, the interview rounds the same, etc. Only difference was my first rounds were over the phone, and with slightly higher level people than they normally use for first rounds.
It really goes either way. Every year my school has a tradition of BB or elite boutique IBD interns => MBB FT because they realize they hate banking, and most of the rest are from Tier 2s with the occasional marketing/corp fin kid. That being said, I still recommend you recruit for Banking if you think you have the time to do the preparation because despite Tier 2 being a step below, they still don't necessarily take that many people. Do both if you can; regardless hustle hard for consulting and try to get yourself a backup.
I cased a lot with other friends in consulting, as well as older students who had successfully gone through the process. I did have a few practice cases with professionals at MBB, but those were usually people I had networked with asking me, and less the other way around. I think the best way to get a no BS view is still to ask older students, seniors with accepted offers for example, to help because they tended to give me cold facts without the company line.
Smith: Replied to your PM Solidarity: Wrong.
Congrats! I definitely echo your preparation, as I too used those exact methods and secured an MBB SA offer last week. Victor Cheng is so good.
Having a great GPA is not a must in all offices...in MBB
Thanks for doing this! A few questions:
1) At my school, all the consulting firms ask for my transcript when applying through OCR. My GPA's decent enough, but if somebody (especially an alum) looked at it, they'd notice that it's a bit screwed up (i.e. change of major multiple times, lots of pass/fails and withdraws, a few gut classes) - am I screwed for MBB? How about boutiques like Parthenon, LEK?
2) How easy is it to get interviews with MBB for FT if you're coming off an SA internship with a top Asset Management firm? How about if you did your internship with a Tier 2 investment bank (i.e. not BB or Elite Boutique)? Which would you recommend - the former has more brand name, but the latter would be tougher work?
3) The same as above, but how easy would it be to go from those internships to Tier 2 consulting firms?
4) How important is networking in terms of getting interviews?
Thanks again for your time.
@stackerquad:
1) Whenever I've had to look over applications, I don't think I've ever needed to look at someone's transcript honestly. I think they're scrutinized perhaps a bit more if some of your details are suspicious. It might be brought up in interviews, but if it fits with your stories I wouldn't really be too concerned.
2) I think both would be fine, the former probably having the edge due to improved name recognition.
3) Arguably easier, though depending on the Tier 2 firm - anecdotal experience leads me to believe that some Tier 2s are harder to get interviews for than MBBs...
4) Depends on the extent to which you need it. The weaker your resume/stats are, the more critical networking well be. If you're a rockstar on paper, it's very possible that you can get all the interviews you need without any networking. Given the importance of recruiting, obviously err on the side of caution. If anything, more networking will help you have better answers for "why company X" if and when you get the interviews.
For what it's worth, in my experience consulting has noticeably less nepotism in its recruiting process than banking. You very rarely hear stories of "he only got the offer because of his dad/uncle/friend" that are rather plentiful in finance recruiting. When you're in the interview room, either you get the case that day or you don't, regardless of who you're connected to.
Thanks dude!
How do you recommend non-target applicants to approach recruiting and networking if the alumni base at the target office location is pretty much nonexistent? Also, can you touch on what kind of attributes typically stick out to recruiters in peoples' past experiences? Thank you.
I was wondering this exact same thing too! Living in the South, the sheer number of offices is just less. Does anyone know if there is a regional component to recruiting regarding business school preference? As things stand for me, I'm trying to decide between going to a higher ranked school in the northeast or a lower one in the south. A higher ranked one might recruit stronger (depending on whether there is a regional component), but one in the South would develop stronger ties where I want to end up living.
I was wondering this exact same thing too! Living in the South, the sheer number of offices is just less. Does anyone know if there is a regional component to recruiting regarding business school preference? As things stand for me, I'm trying to decide between going to a higher ranked school in the northeast or a lower one in the south. A higher ranked one might recruit stronger (depending on whether there is a regional component), but one in the South would develop stronger ties where I want to end up living.
Options are as follows:
Vanderbilt JD/MBA - full tuition MBA scholarship with the possibility for strong networking at high levels. Dean is on board with helping me work with the Governor's Office and the Committee for Economic and Community Development during the academic year. Only Bain does OCI.
Michigan JD - can't say enough good things about the school. Uncomfortable with how strong the alumni network is in the South. Full MBB OCI.
Yale MBA - great program. Strong recruiting. It's Yale, but I need the JD (working in a regulated industry and looking for acquisitions solidified this need). Also, like Michigan, I'm uncomfortable with how strong the alumni network is here in the South. Full MBB OCI.
If it matters, ACT was 34 with public undergraduate triple major in finance, biological sciences, and psychology. GMAT was 770 with grad school at Columbia, MS in industrial engineering and operations research.
Remember, I will end up in the South. It's long term benefits vs. short term ones.
Thoughts?
Who did you reach out to when looking for the accelerated interview process, and how did you bring up the topic? I am in a similar boat as you were; I'm deciding between a second tier consulting firm and a BB non-IBD offer.
There are two main ways to get an accelerated interview. One is to get a guaranteed accelerated interview from the firm during internship recruiting b/c you performed very well. The other is to have an exploding offer from a different company.
In the first case, the firm will reach out to you at the end of the summer to arrange the interview. In the second case, you reach out to the recruiting lead for your school (or a FT consultant with whom you've built a good relationship) and let them know that you have an offer from firm X but would love to have a chance to interview with his/her firm as well.
I'm a junior Econ major at a public target. I finished up consulting recruiting for summer internships and it was a blood bath. MBB rejections, 2nd tier rejections, boutique rejections. I didn't even get a single interview. It's been a pretty demoralizing ordeal. I have 3 questions.
1) I have a few options for summer internships, what would you suggest would put me in a prime position for FT in the fall? F500 Corp. finance? Non-profit/interest group? Tech start up biz dev? Policy work (House of Representatives/ Senate/ Lobbying firms)?
2) I didn't reach out/ network. I know, you're probably thinking "Well there's your problem." but I genuinely thought I had a strong resume (~3.7 GPA, engineering minor, strong internships) and that my merit would get me interviews. I was wrong. How should I go about networking for FT? Cold emails? LinkedIn inMail? Alumni data base? I imagine consultants (MBB especially) are inundated by desperate undergrads looking to make connections, how'd you stick out and establish meaningful relations?
3) How do you like your job?
Respect for Pokemon avi, and thanks for doing this!
@Silicon Economist
1) What's honestly most interesting to you. I think the safest bet would probably be F500 - anything with brand cachet probably helps resume screeners affix some kind of value to what you did.
2) Alumni database, friends of friends, whatever it takes to get a lead. Email HR and ask for helpful contacts if you must - you'll find consulting firms are by and large less hostile than banks can be. Emailing off-cycle, i.e. over the summer when recruiters aren't getting torrents of emails like after an event, can be a good way to stand out.
3) I generally like it, it has its ups and downs. I'm still getting the hang of things since I'm not naturally a very detail-oriented person. The level of influence I can have on things still kind of amazes me and without even really trying I feel like I've learned a lot about various fields as well as standard powerpoint/excel know-how. Co-workers are great and it's been a pretty positive experience overall; they say it gets better as you get more acclimated.
hey all, thanks for posting questions and definitely keep them coming along with the PMs.
Unfortunately/obviously, I can't really get to them at the moment because, well, I'm at work. I'll definitely try to knock out as many as I can tonight when I get home.
How hard is it to transfer from BB IBD summer internship to MBB for full time? Assume target school with good GPA.
I'll take this one since it's quick. Provided you update your resume well, you should be able to get interviews for at least one of MBB without even really trying. Add in some networking and you shouldn't have any problem getting the interviews you want.
That said, that's simply the interview, and from there it's all up to you. Firms won't give you the benefit of the doubt just because you worked in IBD over the summer. That said, a good number of people in the office were BB IBD in a past life.
Thanks a ton for doing this. These are extremely helpful and are few and far between on the Consulting Forum. I SB'd you for your efforts.
I went to a decent non-target (think UC Santa Barbara, Boston University, Fordham, etc) and have worked at a niche consulting firm for the past six months (think Triage, Towers Watson, etc). My end goal is MBB, with the following long term strategy: Current firm for another six months / year --> Lateral to PwC / Deloitte Consulting --> Kill the GMAT --> Top 10 MBA --> MBB. How do 2nd/3rd tier consulting firms feel about laterals from other consulting firms? If I do extensive networking, is it feasible to lateral into something like OW or Parthenon? Do these type of firms interview post undergrad consultants?
What did you use for case material? Did you use Case in Point? How many hours would you say you practiced prior to being "great" at case interviews?
Thanks.
One of the criticisms of the current tier structure I guess is that while it might reflect prestige, it's by no means reflective of ease of entry. To my knowledge, the pool of schools OW and Parthenon recruit from is substantially smaller than that of MBB. PwC and Deloitte Consulting on the other hand are substantially larger firms that should be much more accessible. Not substantially easier to pass interviews with, mind you, but probably easier to get in front of in the first place.
Thanks for opening this topic.
What are you guys doing during a M&A process? I have seen MBB guys workjing on the DD on a deal but is this all that MBB does? And what exactly are you guys doing since the majority of stuff regarding DD is covered by the Big4. I mean, there a corporate finance or M&A groups at MBB but what exactly are they doing?
Cheers!
So MBB does a lot of DD, particularly McKinsey and Bain to my knowledge. I haven't worked on a PE related project and don't come from a finance background, so take everything said here with a grain of salt (it's just conjecture from what I hear). I think the DD work MBB does is not quite the same as the Big 4's. I figure Big 4's would be more from a numerical side whereas MBB DD's are more based around finding growth multiples through industry analysis. As for CF and M&A groups, I honestly don't know - company websites could probably help more than I could haha.
How about going from start-up/entrepreneur to MBB? Is that possible?
Anything's possible. Someone at my office started their own company in high school, ran it successfully before selling it to a larger firm integrating horizontally, went to college, then joined up to gain wider business knowledge.
The recruiting path you'd take obviously would depend on level, education, etc. but I think having an entrepreneurial streak is definitely not a bad thing.
I'm in the same position. Worked full-time through undergraduate. Now VP and CFO of a chemical company. Involved in management of multiple family-owned companies across various industries. Several personal real estate development projects. Love to use great leadership experience for 5+ years to spend some time at MBB after law/business school.
Also, I had a professor that's been an expert consultant at McKinsey for the past decade who I think would be willing to endorse my application. I assume that stuff makes a big difference in securing an interview spot.
Should I wear a hermes tie?
Not sure if serious, but why not. I like wearing ties but find myself the only one doing so in the office.
Do you see people breaking in at the MiM/MSF level?
I've heard of this in passing, but can't really speak to it. I don't believe I've met anyone with that background in our office myself.
hey ampharos, thanks for hosting this thread. I was wondering 1. how much MBB value sophomore internships in recruiting for their third year internships. 2.What's the typical conversion ratio from summer to full-time now? 3. Would you ever recommend someone do ibd for a technical skillset and then do a mbb job to develop those critical thinking skills? Thanks a lot!
A good amount. In general just showing you did something to demonstrate an interest in business or work is generally good, the more "legitimate" the better; e.g. Deutsche IBD, Deloitte BTA, Accenture MCDP, P&G, Google BOLD, Goldman Ops all have sophomore programs, but really any internship is fine if you spin it well. F500 would be great but I interned with a small tech firm doing marketing stuff near home.
Pretty high. Across the board I don't know anyone at any Tier 1,2, or 3 consulting firm who didn't get a return offer besides people who made outrageously poor choices.
That's honestly up to you, but I can tell you it's not an uncommon route. 3/5 of my interviewers were bankers in either internships or another life. Sure, the Finance kids had better Excel skills, but they weren't honestly that much ahead than people who did anything else. Straight up, the kids who have fared the best so far consulted over their internships, either at our company or another.
Thanks for the information Ampharos.
sorry for not getting back to you on your question, but someone else answered it just as I would have so I figured there was no point reinventing the wheel.
the conversion rate for summer to FT is really that high at MBB? specifically bain, as i know a few people who didn't get return offers.
this is probably going to depend a good deal on office as well as firm. from what I hear, southern and midwestern offices are generally pretty easygoing in that regard, whereas say a Bain SF or McKinsey NYC may be more competitive.
but again, yes, I only know of literally one person who did not get a return offer out of maybe the dozen and a half people I've seen summer at MBBs over a few recruiting seasons. getting in is the hard part, doing a sufficiently satisfactory job to prevent yourself from getting fired or not receiving an offer shouldn't really be too difficult (though being a superstar is obviously another story).
Ampharos,
A question came up while my friend was considering HBS 2+2 -> Can you get into post mba MBB role from top MBA with just having two years of MM/BB IBD experience, or maybe even two years of GE FMP? Or do they look for minimum of three years of pre MBA work ex?
n/a
Depends on project, as well as to a certain extent, tenure. On my engagement, I currently work about 45 hours a week, maybe low 50s if you include commute. Seeing as how this is my first case, I don't generally log as many hours as the more senior people on the team. I can tell you that 80 hours would be considered extremely abnormal for a normal case at my office.
Also, despite some people calling it a myth, the working hours/norms definitely do seem to vary by firm, even considering project type.
My impression is that working hours are mostly determined by: 1) case type, 2) location, 3) firm - in that order. I might be wrong though.
Which city did you/do you work in? Do you get your weekends fully free?
Thanks for so the valuable insights!
I also have a question for you, and its about prospective for landing a job at MBB with a non-MBA degree,
I graduated UG with a degree in poli-sci and is now about to start Master in Public Policy program this fall (UG and Grad both target ivy). My concern is that I do not have any significant econ background both in terms of academics and work experience. I'm relying on the fact that MPP curriculum is quantitative/econ heavy and I will surely shoot for summer positions at top tier consulting firms after my first year at grad school, but I'm concerned whether that might be enough to secure a full time position at those firms.
How difficult would it be in my situation to succeed in landing a job at MBB? Does an MPP degree mean anything when it comes to hiring and compensation at a consulting firm? I'm even thinking about pushing back grad school for a year so I could gain some experience working at consulting firms as RA or Summer Intern.
What would be your advice that could maximize my chances for securing a full time position at MBB (i.e. take summer business courses, work as summer intern, or prep for case interviews etc..)?
Thanks for the great help!
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