MM to Bulge Bracket Lateral

I currently work at a middle market bank in industry coverage in NYC.

I just received a lateral offer from a larger bank. I'm likely going to accept but recognize that things have probably been relatively easy on me here (80 - 90 hour weeks). I'm just wondering how big the difference in culture will actually be.

If anyone has made a similar move or can offer some insight I'd greatly appreciate it. Understand this is largely group dependent as well.

Thanks

Comments (176)

 
Dec 31, 1969 - 7:01pm

MM to BB IBD Reneging (Originally Posted: 02/21/2014)

Let me preface this by saying that I read through most of the previous threads on reneging and I wanted to get your thoughts on reneging from an MM IBD to sign with a BB IBD.

I'm from a complete non-target and did not get either offer through OCR. Because of this, I also doubt that I'd have a lot of success leveraging the MM IBD SA into BB FT because those firms don't come on campus. I signed with the MM several weeks ago but recently received an offer from a Top 3 BB.

What is the likelihood that HR from the 2 banks communicate and my offer gets rescinded?

Does anyone know what the procedure is from HR's standpoint when someone reneges - do they contact other banks, or do they not care?

Lastly, I'd appreciate any opinions on whether its worthwhile to jump from a top MM bank to a top BB if you have to renege and burn bridges in the process.

Thanks!

 
Dec 31, 1969 - 7:02pm

How much risk are you willing to take - and is the BB offer worth so much to you that you're willing to risk both offers?
Frankly, it's unpredictable as to what exactly will happen... If it's probable that the MM will find out (possible in a top MM) which BB you're going to, then the chances of you getting fucked is way higher. HR will most likely contact them considering you've already signed your offer, and it's all downhill from there.

'I' wouldn't do it, but it all depends on your risk tolerence. Make sure you consider your situation more carefully - if you mess up, you'll end up a non-target with no offer who's blacklisted from two banks.

 
Dec 31, 1969 - 7:03pm

Question for you - did the interviews with the bulge bracket firm take place AFTER you already received an offer from the MM firm? If not, then for future reference, you should have followed up with the bulge bracket firm more proactively, explaining to them that you had an exploding offer from the MM firm that you had to respond to.

If yes, then, also for future reference, you should have made clear at the outset (e.g. at the early stages of the interview process) that you already had an offer on the table. Now, if you did do exactly that and the bulge bracket firm decided to extend you an offer regardless, then I think you would probably be in a safer position (though nothing is guaranteed) to renege on the MM firm.

Generally speaking, however, the potential consequences of reneging on a job offer is usually greater than the potential reward.

In your situation, HR is not really who you should be worried about. It's the senior bankers that you interviewed with in the final round/superday - these are the one's who make the final decision. If the senior bankers from the middle market firm are chill, you might be able to get away with reneging. If they are ass holes, then you might want to reconsider.

Remember, this industry is a small one, pretty much everyone knows each other. If a MD from one bank wanted to go out of his way to screw over some kid who reneged on him, it would not be hard at all for him to make a few phone calls and figure out which bank gave you the offer.

Good luck.

 
Dec 31, 1969 - 7:04pm

Deo et Patriae:

Question for you - did the interviews with the bulge bracket firm take place AFTER you already received an offer from the MM firm? If not, then for future reference, you should have followed up with the bulge bracket firm more proactively, explaining to them that you had an exploding offer from the MM firm that you had to respond to.

If yes, then, also for future reference, you should have made clear at the outset (e.g. at the early stages of the interview process) that you already had an offer on the table. Now, if you did do exactly that and the bulge bracket firm decided to extend you an offer regardless, then I think you would probably be in a safer position (though nothing is guaranteed) to renege on the MM firm.

Generally speaking, however, the potential consequences of reneging on a job offer is usually greater than the potential reward.

In your situation, HR is not really who you should be worried about. It's the senior bankers that you interviewed with in the final round/superday - these are the one's who make the final decision. If the senior bankers from the middle market firm are chill, you might be able to get away with reneging. If they are ass holes, then you might want to reconsider.

Remember, this industry is a small one, pretty much everyone knows each other. If a MD from one bank wanted to go out of his way to screw over some kid who reneged on him, it would not be hard at all for him to make a few phone calls and figure out which bank gave you the offer.

Good luck.

This is a great post. One thing I'd just add / clarify is that for SA, the MDs probably aren't going to be heavily involved or care too much. Although they likely played a part in the offer decisions, I doubt they are so plugged into the recruiting process that they'll care enough about an SA reneging to go find out who it was, let alone where they're going.

That said, it's possible some MDs are just complete dicks and would want to screw you over; I haven't encountered any but I'm sure they are out there.

 
Funniest
Dec 31, 1969 - 7:05pm

Just an idea: you could accept both offers, and show up for work the first day at the MM and exclaim "this isn't for me!" and quit, then continue your internship at the BB. Might even get to keep some of your signing bonus at the MM too ;)

 
Dec 31, 1969 - 7:06pm

This is an interesting situation to be in. Nevertheless, it is a situation that happens each year during recruitment season. You see, you are over-thinking it. HR is not going to contact HR at the BB and screw you. As an incoming summer intern, the fact of the matter is these banks do not value you as much as you value them- Until you prove yourself down the line. Take it from me, I have a few friends who did exactly this- Receive offers from MM banks and reneg to go BB. They are currently doing just fine.

To further play devils advocate, your prospects going into FT recruiting will be better from having a BB on your resume as opposed to a MM (which is still great).

 
Dec 31, 1969 - 7:07pm

Bump. Would be interested in hearing more perspectives.

Just to add some more information - I've had no contact with "senior bankers" at the MM, didn't interview with anyone senior other than maybe 1 VP.

 
Dec 31, 1969 - 7:08pm

which of the following two things would make it harder for you to sleep at night:

1. knowing you turned down a BB and that your future prospects are potentially marginally dimmer because of it
or
2. a small chance you'll get totally screwed over and need to bust your ass for FT recruiting to land anything at all

“Success means having the courage, the determination, and the will to become the person you believe you were meant to be”
 
Dec 31, 1969 - 7:16pm

Dude. People freak out about these things. I'm in b-school and have had a job before. You renege.

Show the bank the same respect they show you. Do what is best for you.

"They are all former investment bankers that were laid off in the economic collapse that Nancy Pelosi caused. They have no marketable skills, but by God they work hard."
 
Dec 31, 1969 - 7:18pm

If you do renege - keep your mouth shut on where you'll be going if they ask you. Because if someone wanted to be a dick and look you up, if you're coming from a complete non-target, it won't be too hard to find out where you got an offer.

Truthfully though, an SA hire doesn't matter much to a bank. If they lose one, they can easily find someone they like just as much next on their list. So I doubt it will come to someone really wanting to go out of their way to screw you. And since you didn't get either offers through OCR, your risk is greatly reduced compared to being at a target where in worse case scenarios a student gets barred from OCR and offers rescinded because some firm threw a fit.

 
Dec 31, 1969 - 7:20pm

Lateraling from Top MM to BB/EB (Originally Posted: 11/16/2014)

How difficult is it to lateral at the first year analyst level from a top MM (Baird, Houlihan corp fin, Harris Williams) to a BB or EB if you come from a target school (HYPW)? How long do you usually need to work before being able to lateral over? Thanks in advance.

Array
 
Dec 31, 1969 - 7:46pm

Lateral from MM to BB or Elite Boutique (Originally Posted: 12/16/2009)

FYI, I'm a 3rd yr analyst at a MM bank. What's the precedent for an analyst at a MM bank in m&a lateraling to BB or elite boutique? Going further, is it better to lateral as a 3rd year or wait for associate promotion and try to lateral then? Is this possible through headhunters or majority through networking? Buyside recruiting is not going as planned and major concern would be whether chances of a lateral move would be diminished after having the associate tag.

Cheers,
Ben

 
Dec 31, 1969 - 7:53pm

How to lateral from MM-BB to BB in one year (Originally Posted: 12/06/2007)

Hi bankers,
I am going to be an analyst this coming fall at a MM-BB (think BofA, Bear Stearns, Deutsche) and have heard many horror stories about the lack of deal flow in my office. Even though I know it is a bit premature, lateraling is an option that I might take after my first year. What is the possibility or likelihood of moving to BB (ML, Credit Suisse, JPMo, Citi, Lehman) from a MM-BB even if the dealflow at current employer is weaker than would be preferred. Also what can I do now to put myself in the best position to lateral to a BB? Thanks for your answers! Much appreciated!

 
Dec 31, 1969 - 8:11pm

Moving from MM to BB (Originally Posted: 03/06/2007)

Is it conceivable to intern this summer at a MM ibank then move next summer to a BB bank? Do you all think I'll get flak from the BB interviewers for this or will they discount my experience all together because its at a MM firm? Thanks in advance for the help!

 
Best Response
Dec 31, 1969 - 8:27pm

MM IB--->BB NY IBD Lateral??? (Originally Posted: 04/13/2014)

Been on here for a while and just wanted to thank everybody for the wealth of information this site provides. Anyway, im currently about to start a FT analyst program at a MM bank in the South(Charlotte/ATL/Houston) with mediocre deal flow in a generalist group. I know buy-side recruiting comes and goes fast, and my group will probably provide me little exit ops, so im trying to plan out my next move. Id like to move to a larger city(NY/Chicago) and give myself some more flexibility, so im guessing lateraling to a BB/elite boutique(if possible) should be my immediate focus.

Things im interested in-
-VC
-Corp Dev at somewhere like Facebook/Disney/ESPN
-Startups
-Possibly a HF

Things im not interested in-
-PE
-Business School
-Hopefully not getting "reset" as a first year analyst

How do I go about lateraling? Is it necessary for my goals? Will I have to start as a first year? Is BB NYC possible from a mediocre group in the south?

Thanks in advance guys.

 
Dec 31, 1969 - 8:29pm

MM to BB Lateral, is it worth it? (Originally Posted: 06/16/2015)

Hello Fellow Monkeys, I just looking for some opinions on whether you would say a move from a lower tier bank to a BB if my current position offers the following:

1) Job security
2) Great boss
3) Not as much "red tape"
4) Lower pay (think the left side of the bell curve)

I also have only worked at my current role for a 7 months.

Thanks, appreciate the input in advance.

 
Dec 31, 1969 - 8:31pm

MM to BB (Originally Posted: 06/16/2007)

I am now working at a MM as a summer analyst in NY, but I would really like to get into a BB for full-time. People told me to use this summer to network with those top banks. But how exactly should I do? What is the best way of networking in my situation?

thanks!

 
Dec 31, 1969 - 8:34pm

MM SA internship to FT in BB next year? (Originally Posted: 02/16/2011)

Switched from consulting to banking half-way through recruiting and missed the boat on most of the BB interviews. Go to a target and have a very high GPA but little finance experience, however, got an offer for MM IBD summer. Wondering if doing a summer stint in M&A or another strong group would position me well for BB next year? Are people able to transition?

Help and advice much appreciated.

 
Dec 31, 1969 - 8:38pm

Transition from MM to to bulge bracket (Originally Posted: 07/31/2007)

If you work at a good middle-market PE firm ($2-3B fund) before B-school and perform well, how easy is it to make a transition to a larger firm (Warburg Pincus, Bain Cap, Carlyle, etc.) after Business School if you decide to make that transition?

I'd like to try out a MM shop for a few years, but don't want to be closing off any doors if I decide later on that I want to move to a bigger fund.

Any thoughts are appreciated...

 
Dec 31, 1969 - 8:47pm

MM -> BB (Originally Posted: 08/01/2011)

Will the fact that your experience mostly falls into $50-$250 mm M&A deals play against you when BB banks look at your profile? I get that they'd prefer people who have worked on large cap deals but wanted to see if it would be impossible to break into BB whatsoever.

Thanks

 
Dec 31, 1969 - 8:51pm

MM Tech to Lower BB M&A? (Originally Posted: 06/07/2014)

Considering leaving a Stifel/Blair/Piper level bank industry coverage group for a lower BB M&A UBS/HBSC/DB group.

I am headed into my second year. Is it worth making the leap for a marginally better bank rep and better industry/product group? I will obviously be creating enemies at my current firm by leaving so soon.

 
Dec 31, 1969 - 8:57pm

Lateral Move from MM to BB (Originally Posted: 12/28/2013)

Hi all,

I'm currently a 1st year analyst at a MM shop looking to make a lateral move to a BB in any geography (ideally NY/LA/SF/Chicago/London/HK). Have good grades from a semi-target that doesn't have a very good alumni network outside of the region.

I understand that it isn't possible to make the move until 8-12 months from now, but what things can I be doing now to increase my chances of success?

Happy to give more info via PM and willing to take any advice!

 
Dec 31, 1969 - 9:02pm

Lateral to a BB in a few years from a MM bank (Originally Posted: 09/28/2008)

Hey guys,

I'm going to start working as an analyst in an MM bank next year. Assuming I do well, does anyone know if it would be realistic/possible to move to a BB bank as an analyst in a year or two as a lateral hire?

Thanks

 
Dec 31, 1969 - 9:08pm

Lateraling from MM to BB (Originally Posted: 01/13/2011)

Did a search but my exact questions weren't answered. So what necessary steps need to be taken in order for an analyst at a reputable middle-market investment bank to lateral over to a BB?

  1. Is there headhunters for this, or is that only for PE/HF?
  2. What is the typical timeline of someone who wants to accomplish this? When is it acceptable to show interest to other banks? (lets say a spot is open and your 7 months into your job, is it okay to reach out?)
  3. Can you lateral after your first year? How would you approach other banks?

Goal is to get into an M&A group, preferably at an elite boutique or tier 1/2 BB.

Thanks in advance. Any other info on this would be great.

 
Dec 31, 1969 - 9:15pm

Non-Target to MM to BB? (Originally Posted: 07/14/2014)

I'm still researching/applying to colleges (some of which are semi-targets and some of which are non-targets) and I'm kind of in the "hope for the best, plan for the worst" phase, so I've been thinking how I could still get to BB IBD from a non-target like Bentley University (which I've heard has fairly decent placement at MM/Boutique firms) by moving from a boutique or MM to a BB. Is this feasible? Also, how many years are usually spent in IB before you have to work relatively fewer hours?

We spend a lot of time making the unimportant measurable while the important remains immeasurable
 
Dec 31, 1969 - 9:23pm

Lateraling question: from small boutique/mm focusing on one sector to a well known mm or BB? (Originally Posted: 05/05/2011)

Is it easy / doable: Lateraling from a boutique / mm i-bank that focuses only on gaming/leisure/hospitality to a BB or a well known MM?

My end goal is PE so looking to set myself up with the best possible exit opp!

 
Dec 31, 1969 - 9:28pm

MM Tech vs Lower BB M&A (Originally Posted: 06/07/2014)

considering leaving a Stifel/Blair/Piper level bank industry coverage group for a lower BB M&A UBS/HBSC/DB group.

I am headed into my second year. Is it worth making the leap for a marginally better bank rep and better industry/product group? I will obviously be creating enemies at my current firm by leaving so soon.

 
Dec 31, 1969 - 9:30pm

Bigger class = bigger network. Bigger brand = better deal flow and better exposure. If you were thinking of leaving an elite boutique, I'd advise staying, but from Stifel, Blair, or Piper, I'd say it's worth it to make the switch.

Of course, you can't please everyone. I wouldn't say that you will "obviously be creating enemies" by leaving and you should never think of it that way. If people give you shit for doing what you feel is right, then they're probably not people worth knowing anyway. You should make sure you have friends at banks different from your own and they should be happy for you that you've found an opportunity that excites you. When you're building your brand, your priority is you.

 
Dec 31, 1969 - 9:31pm

Middle Market IB internships 3rd year to BB IBD full time analyst possible? (Originally Posted: 02/09/2013)

Hey! I've made some good relations with a few middle market banks in my hometown. At the same time, I go to a good target school for BB's. If I don't succeed in getting an IBD internship the summer after my third year and get one at an MM bank instead, is being a full-time analyst at one of the BB banks that recruit heavily from my school still possible?

 
Dec 31, 1969 - 9:33pm

although 80% of new hires are from SA class, then they'll poach SAs from other BBs late summer, then if there is space left over they'll consider MM SAs - it'll be tough...

 
Dec 31, 1969 - 9:35pm

It's certainly doable. I'd suggest that you continue your networking efforts, with the aim of being recommended for accelerated full-time interview processes.

"There are three ways to make a living in this business: be first, be smarter, or cheat."
 
Dec 31, 1969 - 9:36pm

People get them, sure. Yes, it's also technically possible, but you need to be honest with yourself.

It's much harder to get a full time offer than a SA. If you start early, go to a target and put in a solid effort but don't succeed in getting a SA, what makes you think full time recruiting will go any differently?

Array
 
Dec 31, 1969 - 9:37pm

Middle Market in Satellite city to BB IBD Full time...how doable is it? (Originally Posted: 04/02/2013)

I'm currently a sophomore and have networked hard in my satellite hometown. This MD at a middle market bank now wants to hire me as an intern for this summer. Say, for instance, that I get rejected at all the bulge brackets for the summer after my third year. Would it still be possible to get in at a BB full time for IBD if I interned at the middle market bank for 2 consecutive summers? How much of a disadvantage would I be to summer analysts from bulge brackets?

 
Dec 31, 1969 - 9:39pm

Obviously a big disadvantage- the summer analysts have an "in". If they perform, then the bank will give them return offer. You, on the other hand, don't have a big chance of getting FT offer as it's mostly given to SA's and few spots are left depending on the economy.

 
Dec 31, 1969 - 9:41pm

Its just a numbers game... banks BB or not try to fill their analyst classes with the SAs that they know and like. There are always a handful of slots to fill though at the end of the summer save for '09 (?) but you''ll get a shot. Honestly, just get your current offer, kill it and then move on if you want. I get that you want to plan which is a smart move, but its not worth going beyond planning and starting to worry about it. You'll get a shot if you're good and you've just got to take it and run with it.

'Before you enter... be willing to pay the price'
 
Dec 31, 1969 - 9:43pm

It is possible but its going to be very difficult. Last cycle the BB's kept their FT recruiting pool to mostly target schools and interns at other NYC BB firms. I would suggest you network throughout the entire summer if you want to have any hope of being thrown into that pool.

 
Dec 31, 1969 - 9:44pm

Okay, I think we got it. It'll be challenging, but the # of slots available is out of everyone's control so don't worry about it. Yes its a variable, yes you should be mindful of it if you're trying to position yourself, but stop stressing out about it. Let go of the shit you can't control, you'll have enough on your plate come recruiting time than worrying about OMGZ theres 100 of us at the superday for only 5 slots. If you don't believe that you're competitive with the pool, it's already over just go home.

'Before you enter... be willing to pay the price'
 
Dec 31, 1969 - 9:45pm

MM internship to BB FT, what things to learn (modeling etc.) over the summer (Originally Posted: 02/27/2008)

Hey,

I just accepted an offer from a MM in London. I want to use this experience to go to a BB FT. What kind off things should I learn as a summer analyst so that I can put it on my resume and also talk about in interviews. I had interviews with most of the BBs for internship positions, but I think that lack of experience and/or interviewing skills was the cause that I didn't get any offers (I had one BB second-round interviews). I go to a semi-target and from what I can understand hiring has been down, JPM gave out 1 offer as opposed to 5 last year.

So, what financial modeling, research etc. should I try to get exposed to and learn?

Thanks!

 
Dec 31, 1969 - 9:46pm

Just do what you will be asked to. everything will be helpful, and you won't be able to influence type of your assignments much, anyway

 
Dec 31, 1969 - 9:48pm

Assuming that you have a good GPA and leadership experience, you should definitely take some financial modeling courses and also if you think that you are lacking interviewing skills then do get some professional help. The same thing happened to me for summer analyst program, I did not receive a single offer for BB. But then I took an advanced financial modeling course (DCF, M&A, LBO, etc.) with The Analyst Exchange and also took their interview prep course. I got offers from BB including Goldman. The instructor at AnEx was very helpful and gave me great advice on how to network, etc. too.

I think you should really look into it. AnEx will be very helpful.

 
Dec 31, 1969 - 9:52pm

How easy is it to lateral in S&T from MM to BB? (Originally Posted: 02/15/2017)

Hello,

I have read quite a few threads about individuals lateraling from IB MM to BB on here, however there doesn't seem to be much information on lateraling for s&t. If I were to take a SA position at a non-US bank (think Macquarie, HSBC) and work full time (potentially on a sales desk) would a move to a BB be probable after a few years or is headcount in s&t so limited that it's not a strong probability?
Thanks all!

 
Dec 31, 1969 - 9:53pm
"Sounds to me like you guys a couple of bookies."
Start Discussion

Popular Content See all

This Fucking Sucks
+50OFFby Prospective Monkey in Investment Banking - Mergers and Acquisitions">Prospect in IB-M&A
Why would any associate+ banker choose a BB over EB?
+32IBby Intern in Investment Banking - Mergers and Acquisitions">Intern in IB-M&A
PE isn’t the best way to get into b-school
+26BSCHby 2nd Year Associate in Private Equity - LBOs">Associate 2 in PE - LBOs
Share a day that looked like a Suits/Billions episode
+24IBby Intern in Investment Banking - Generalist">Intern in IB - Gen
What's Wrong with Warburg Industrial & Business Services?
+17PEby 1st Year Analyst in Investment Banking - Mergers and Acquisitions">Analyst 1 in IB-M&A
Evercore Target Schools?
+14IBby Prospective Monkey in Investment Banking - Mergers and Acquisitions">Prospect in IB-M&A
William Blair - WFH Experience
+13IBby 1st Year Analyst in Investment Banking - Industry/Coverage">Analyst 1 in IB - Ind

Total Avg Compensation

February 2021 Investment Banking

  • Director/MD (9) $911
  • Vice President (31) $349
  • Associates (159) $231
  • 2nd Year Analyst (97) $151
  • Intern/Summer Associate (92) $144
  • 3rd+ Year Analyst (23) $145
  • 1st Year Analyst (366) $131
  • Intern/Summer Analyst (304) $82

Leaderboard See all

1
LonLonMilk's picture
LonLonMilk
98.5
2
Jamoldo's picture
Jamoldo
98.4
3
Secyh62's picture
Secyh62
98.3
4
CompBanker's picture
CompBanker
97.9
5
redever's picture
redever
97.8
6
frgna's picture
frgna
97.6
7
Addinator's picture
Addinator
97.6
8
Edifice's picture
Edifice
97.5
9
NuckFuts's picture
NuckFuts
97.5
10
bolo up's picture
bolo up
97.5