MM to Bulge Bracket Lateral
I currently work at a middle market bank in industry coverage in NYC.
I just received a lateral offer from a larger bank. I'm likely going to accept but recognize that things have probably been relatively easy on me here (80 - 90 hour weeks). I'm just wondering how big the difference in culture will actually be.
If anyone has made a similar move or can offer some insight I'd greatly appreciate it. Understand this is largely group dependent as well.
Thanks
Comments (176)
MM to BB IBD Reneging (Originally Posted: 02/21/2014)
Let me preface this by saying that I read through most of the previous threads on reneging and I wanted to get your thoughts on reneging from an MM IBD to sign with a BB IBD.
I'm from a complete non-target and did not get either offer through OCR. Because of this, I also doubt that I'd have a lot of success leveraging the MM IBD SA into BB FT because those firms don't come on campus. I signed with the MM several weeks ago but recently received an offer from a Top 3 BB.
What is the likelihood that HR from the 2 banks communicate and my offer gets rescinded?
Does anyone know what the procedure is from HR's standpoint when someone reneges - do they contact other banks, or do they not care?
Lastly, I'd appreciate any opinions on whether its worthwhile to jump from a top MM bank to a top BB if you have to renege and burn bridges in the process.
Thanks!
How much risk are you willing to take - and is the BB offer worth so much to you that you're willing to risk both offers?
Frankly, it's unpredictable as to what exactly will happen... If it's probable that the MM will find out (possible in a top MM) which BB you're going to, then the chances of you getting fucked is way higher. HR will most likely contact them considering you've already signed your offer, and it's all downhill from there.
'I' wouldn't do it, but it all depends on your risk tolerence. Make sure you consider your situation more carefully - if you mess up, you'll end up a non-target with no offer who's blacklisted from two banks.
Question for you - did the interviews with the bulge bracket firm take place AFTER you already received an offer from the MM firm? If not, then for future reference, you should have followed up with the bulge bracket firm more proactively, explaining to them that you had an exploding offer from the MM firm that you had to respond to.
If yes, then, also for future reference, you should have made clear at the outset (e.g. at the early stages of the interview process) that you already had an offer on the table. Now, if you did do exactly that and the bulge bracket firm decided to extend you an offer regardless, then I think you would probably be in a safer position (though nothing is guaranteed) to renege on the MM firm.
Generally speaking, however, the potential consequences of reneging on a job offer is usually greater than the potential reward.
In your situation, HR is not really who you should be worried about. It's the senior bankers that you interviewed with in the final round/superday - these are the one's who make the final decision. If the senior bankers from the middle market firm are chill, you might be able to get away with reneging. If they are ass holes, then you might want to reconsider.
Remember, this industry is a small one, pretty much everyone knows each other. If a MD from one bank wanted to go out of his way to screw over some kid who reneged on him, it would not be hard at all for him to make a few phone calls and figure out which bank gave you the offer.
Good luck.
This is a great post. One thing I'd just add / clarify is that for SA, the MDs probably aren't going to be heavily involved or care too much. Although they likely played a part in the offer decisions, I doubt they are so plugged into the recruiting process that they'll care enough about an SA reneging to go find out who it was, let alone where they're going.
That said, it's possible some MDs are just complete dicks and would want to screw you over; I haven't encountered any but I'm sure they are out there.
Just an idea: you could accept both offers, and show up for work the first day at the MM and exclaim "this isn't for me!" and quit, then continue your internship at the BB. Might even get to keep some of your signing bonus at the MM too ;)
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Learn moreThis is an interesting situation to be in. Nevertheless, it is a situation that happens each year during recruitment season. You see, you are over-thinking it. HR is not going to contact HR at the BB and screw you. As an incoming summer intern, the fact of the matter is these banks do not value you as much as you value them- Until you prove yourself down the line. Take it from me, I have a few friends who did exactly this- Receive offers from MM banks and reneg to go BB. They are currently doing just fine.
To further play devils advocate, your prospects going into FT recruiting will be better from having a BB on your resume as opposed to a MM (which is still great).
Bump. Would be interested in hearing more perspectives.
Just to add some more information - I've had no contact with "senior bankers" at the MM, didn't interview with anyone senior other than maybe 1 VP.
which of the following two things would make it harder for you to sleep at night:
1. knowing you turned down a BB and that your future prospects are potentially marginally dimmer because of it
or
2. a small chance you'll get totally screwed over and need to bust your ass for FT recruiting to land anything at all
Are we talking Piper to GS or Jefferies to BAML? If #2, not worth it.
I'm guessing Strong MM means (JEF/HL/WB) to GS/MS/JPM
Bump
shameless re-bump
HR procedure will vary by bank, but more likely, will vary by individual
While not good for your reputation to reneg, need to weigh against benefits of your other opportunity
Most likely outcome - someone in HR is pissed for 5 min, then stops caring and life moves on..
Would be foolish not to take the BB offer
bump
.
Dude. People freak out about these things. I'm in b-school and have had a job before. You renege.
Show the bank the same respect they show you. Do what is best for you.
If you do renege - keep your mouth shut on where you'll be going if they ask you. Because if someone wanted to be a dick and look you up, if you're coming from a complete non-target, it won't be too hard to find out where you got an offer.
Truthfully though, an SA hire doesn't matter much to a bank. If they lose one, they can easily find someone they like just as much next on their list. So I doubt it will come to someone really wanting to go out of their way to screw you. And since you didn't get either offers through OCR, your risk is greatly reduced compared to being at a target where in worse case scenarios a student gets barred from OCR and offers rescinded because some firm threw a fit.
RENEG!!
Lateraling from Top MM to BB/EB (Originally Posted: 11/16/2014)
How difficult is it to lateral at the first year analyst level from a top MM (Baird, Houlihan corp fin, Harris Williams) to a BB or EB if you come from a target school (HYPW)? How long do you usually need to work before being able to lateral over? Thanks in advance.
MM to BB Lateral (Originally Posted: 01/06/2013)
What kind of chances do analysts at good MMs (think HW, HLHZ, Jefferies etc) have for lateralling over to BBs?
Also, what is the usual route for doing this? Do you work for a couple of years and then start sending out feelers to other banks?
Lateral from MM to BB/Elite Boutique (Originally Posted: 08/18/2014)
deleted
Lateral from MM to BB or Elite Boutique (Originally Posted: 12/16/2009)
FYI, I'm a 3rd yr analyst at a MM bank. What's the precedent for an analyst at a MM bank in m&a lateraling to BB or elite boutique? Going further, is it better to lateral as a 3rd year or wait for associate promotion and try to lateral then? Is this possible through headhunters or majority through networking? Buyside recruiting is not going as planned and major concern would be whether chances of a lateral move would be diminished after having the associate tag.
Cheers,
Ben
How to lateral from MM-BB to BB in one year (Originally Posted: 12/06/2007)
Hi bankers,
I am going to be an analyst this coming fall at a MM-BB (think BofA, Bear Stearns, Deutsche) and have heard many horror stories about the lack of deal flow in my office. Even though I know it is a bit premature, lateraling is an option that I might take after my first year. What is the possibility or likelihood of moving to BB (ML, Credit Suisse, JPMo, Citi, Lehman) from a MM-BB even if the dealflow at current employer is weaker than would be preferred. Also what can I do now to put myself in the best position to lateral to a BB? Thanks for your answers! Much appreciated!
Moving from MM to BB (Originally Posted: 03/06/2007)
Is it conceivable to intern this summer at a MM ibank then move next summer to a BB bank? Do you all think I'll get flak from the BB interviewers for this or will they discount my experience all together because its at a MM firm? Thanks in advance for the help!
MM/Boutique to BB lateral (Originally Posted: 06/05/2011)
assuming you're at a legit shop, how does this process work? will headhunters reach out to you or will you have to network yourself?
Lateral from MM to BB (Originally Posted: 10/28/2014)
What is the process of lateral after starting your 1st year in investment banking? Trying to see if it's possible to go from mm to bb
MM IB--->BB NY IBD Lateral??? (Originally Posted: 04/13/2014)
Been on here for a while and just wanted to thank everybody for the wealth of information this site provides. Anyway, im currently about to start a FT analyst program at a MM bank in the South(Charlotte/ATL/Houston) with mediocre deal flow in a generalist group. I know buy-side recruiting comes and goes fast, and my group will probably provide me little exit ops, so im trying to plan out my next move. Id like to move to a larger city(NY/Chicago) and give myself some more flexibility, so im guessing lateraling to a BB/elite boutique(if possible) should be my immediate focus.
Things im interested in-
-VC
-Corp Dev at somewhere like Facebook/Disney/ESPN
-Startups
-Possibly a HF
Things im not interested in-
-PE
-Business School
-Hopefully not getting "reset" as a first year analyst
How do I go about lateraling? Is it necessary for my goals? Will I have to start as a first year? Is BB NYC possible from a mediocre group in the south?
Thanks in advance guys.
MM to BB Lateral, is it worth it? (Originally Posted: 06/16/2015)
Hello Fellow Monkeys, I just looking for some opinions on whether you would say a move from a lower tier bank to a BB if my current position offers the following:
1) Job security
2) Great boss
3) Not as much "red tape"
4) Lower pay (think the left side of the bell curve)
I also have only worked at my current role for a 7 months.
Thanks, appreciate the input in advance.
MM to BB (Originally Posted: 06/16/2007)
I am now working at a MM as a summer analyst in NY, but I would really like to get into a BB for full-time. People told me to use this summer to network with those top banks. But how exactly should I do? What is the best way of networking in my situation?
thanks!
MM SA internship to FT in BB next year? (Originally Posted: 02/16/2011)
Switched from consulting to banking half-way through recruiting and missed the boat on most of the BB interviews. Go to a target and have a very high GPA but little finance experience, however, got an offer for MM IBD summer. Wondering if doing a summer stint in M&A or another strong group would position me well for BB next year? Are people able to transition?
Help and advice much appreciated.
Transition from MM to to bulge bracket (Originally Posted: 07/31/2007)
If you work at a good middle-market PE firm ($2-3B fund) before B-school and perform well, how easy is it to make a transition to a larger firm (Warburg Pincus, Bain Cap, Carlyle, etc.) after Business School if you decide to make that transition?
I'd like to try out a MM shop for a few years, but don't want to be closing off any doors if I decide later on that I want to move to a bigger fund.
Any thoughts are appreciated...
MM to BB? (Originally Posted: 12/18/2008)
what do you guys think of a possibility or a strategy of transferring from a middle market ibd to bulge bracket ibd? Has anyone done i-banking in middle market, gone to a top mba and got into a bulge bracket firm? is it impossible to do that? Would appreciate any inputs (only helpful ones - no offensive comments plz).
MM -> BB (Originally Posted: 08/01/2011)
Will the fact that your experience mostly falls into $50-$250 mm M&A deals play against you when BB banks look at your profile? I get that they'd prefer people who have worked on large cap deals but wanted to see if it would be impossible to break into BB whatsoever.
Thanks
MM Tech to Lower BB M&A? (Originally Posted: 06/07/2014)
Considering leaving a Stifel/Blair/Piper level bank industry coverage group for a lower BB M&A UBS/HBSC/DB group.
I am headed into my second year. Is it worth making the leap for a marginally better bank rep and better industry/product group? I will obviously be creating enemies at my current firm by leaving so soon.
Lateral Move from MM to BB (Originally Posted: 12/28/2013)
Hi all,
I'm currently a 1st year analyst at a MM shop looking to make a lateral move to a BB in any geography (ideally NY/LA/SF/Chicago/London/HK). Have good grades from a semi-target that doesn't have a very good alumni network outside of the region.
I understand that it isn't possible to make the move until 8-12 months from now, but what things can I be doing now to increase my chances of success?
Happy to give more info via PM and willing to take any advice!
Lateral to a BB in a few years from a MM bank (Originally Posted: 09/28/2008)
Hey guys,
I'm going to start working as an analyst in an MM bank next year. Assuming I do well, does anyone know if it would be realistic/possible to move to a BB bank as an analyst in a year or two as a lateral hire?
Thanks
Lateraling from MM to BB (Originally Posted: 01/13/2011)
Did a search but my exact questions weren't answered. So what necessary steps need to be taken in order for an analyst at a reputable middle-market investment bank to lateral over to a BB?
Goal is to get into an M&A group, preferably at an elite boutique or tier 1/2 BB.
Thanks in advance. Any other info on this would be great.
Non-Target to MM to BB? (Originally Posted: 07/14/2014)
I'm still researching/applying to colleges (some of which are semi-targets and some of which are non-targets) and I'm kind of in the "hope for the best, plan for the worst" phase, so I've been thinking how I could still get to BB IBD from a non-target like Bentley University (which I've heard has fairly decent placement at MM/Boutique firms) by moving from a boutique or MM to a BB. Is this feasible? Also, how many years are usually spent in IB before you have to work relatively fewer hours?
Lateraling question: from small boutique/mm focusing on one sector to a well known mm or BB? (Originally Posted: 05/05/2011)
Is it easy / doable: Lateraling from a boutique / mm i-bank that focuses only on gaming/leisure/hospitality to a BB or a well known MM?
My end goal is PE so looking to set myself up with the best possible exit opp!
MM Tech vs Lower BB M&A (Originally Posted: 06/07/2014)
considering leaving a Stifel/Blair/Piper level bank industry coverage group for a lower BB M&A UBS/HBSC/DB group.
I am headed into my second year. Is it worth making the leap for a marginally better bank rep and better industry/product group? I will obviously be creating enemies at my current firm by leaving so soon.
Bigger class = bigger network. Bigger brand = better deal flow and better exposure. If you were thinking of leaving an elite boutique, I'd advise staying, but from Stifel, Blair, or Piper, I'd say it's worth it to make the switch.
Of course, you can't please everyone. I wouldn't say that you will "obviously be creating enemies" by leaving and you should never think of it that way. If people give you shit for doing what you feel is right, then they're probably not people worth knowing anyway. You should make sure you have friends at banks different from your own and they should be happy for you that you've found an opportunity that excites you. When you're building your brand, your priority is you.
wow thank you for the thought out response. It caused me to change my perspective on this process.
Middle Market IB internships 3rd year to BB IBD full time analyst possible? (Originally Posted: 02/09/2013)
Hey! I've made some good relations with a few middle market banks in my hometown. At the same time, I go to a good target school for BB's. If I don't succeed in getting an IBD internship the summer after my third year and get one at an MM bank instead, is being a full-time analyst at one of the BB banks that recruit heavily from my school still possible?
yes
although 80% of new hires are from SA class, then they'll poach SAs from other BBs late summer, then if there is space left over they'll consider MM SAs - it'll be tough...
Does anybody have actual experience (or anecdotes from others) in doing MM IBD 3rd year summer to becoming a full-time analyst at BB?
It's certainly doable. I'd suggest that you continue your networking efforts, with the aim of being recommended for accelerated full-time interview processes.
People get them, sure. Yes, it's also technically possible, but you need to be honest with yourself.
It's much harder to get a full time offer than a SA. If you start early, go to a target and put in a solid effort but don't succeed in getting a SA, what makes you think full time recruiting will go any differently?
Middle Market in Satellite city to BB IBD Full time...how doable is it? (Originally Posted: 04/02/2013)
I'm currently a sophomore and have networked hard in my satellite hometown. This MD at a middle market bank now wants to hire me as an intern for this summer. Say, for instance, that I get rejected at all the bulge brackets for the summer after my third year. Would it still be possible to get in at a BB full time for IBD if I interned at the middle market bank for 2 consecutive summers? How much of a disadvantage would I be to summer analysts from bulge brackets?
BB hire almost entirely from their summer class so you would indeed be at a disadvantage. however with bb sa you will certainly be desirable. there are always a few slots open to outsiders if not this time, you can always lateral with ibd experience after a year.
Obviously a big disadvantage- the summer analysts have an "in". If they perform, then the bank will give them return offer. You, on the other hand, don't have a big chance of getting FT offer as it's mostly given to SA's and few spots are left depending on the economy.
yes, also the few spots that are left for full time are usually given to summer analysts who didn't get a full time offer
Its just a numbers game... banks BB or not try to fill their analyst classes with the SAs that they know and like. There are always a handful of slots to fill though at the end of the summer save for '09 (?) but you''ll get a shot. Honestly, just get your current offer, kill it and then move on if you want. I get that you want to plan which is a smart move, but its not worth going beyond planning and starting to worry about it. You'll get a shot if you're good and you've just got to take it and run with it.
i agree with the above, but from experience, i found BBs will recruit more after the summer program than you might expect.
just kill it at your summer gig, have your story ready on why you'd like to move to a NY BB and have your MD make some calls.
It is possible but its going to be very difficult. Last cycle the BB's kept their FT recruiting pool to mostly target schools and interns at other NYC BB firms. I would suggest you network throughout the entire summer if you want to have any hope of being thrown into that pool.
Okay, I think we got it. It'll be challenging, but the # of slots available is out of everyone's control so don't worry about it. Yes its a variable, yes you should be mindful of it if you're trying to position yourself, but stop stressing out about it. Let go of the shit you can't control, you'll have enough on your plate come recruiting time than worrying about OMGZ theres 100 of us at the superday for only 5 slots. If you don't believe that you're competitive with the pool, it's already over just go home.
MM internship to BB FT, what things to learn (modeling etc.) over the summer (Originally Posted: 02/27/2008)
Hey,
I just accepted an offer from a MM in London. I want to use this experience to go to a BB FT. What kind off things should I learn as a summer analyst so that I can put it on my resume and also talk about in interviews. I had interviews with most of the BBs for internship positions, but I think that lack of experience and/or interviewing skills was the cause that I didn't get any offers (I had one BB second-round interviews). I go to a semi-target and from what I can understand hiring has been down, JPM gave out 1 offer as opposed to 5 last year.
So, what financial modeling, research etc. should I try to get exposed to and learn?
Thanks!
Just do what you will be asked to. everything will be helpful, and you won't be able to influence type of your assignments much, anyway
Lets say I could influence the assignments.
Assuming that you have a good GPA and leadership experience, you should definitely take some financial modeling courses and also if you think that you are lacking interviewing skills then do get some professional help. The same thing happened to me for summer analyst program, I did not receive a single offer for BB. But then I took an advanced financial modeling course (DCF, M&A, LBO, etc.) with The Analyst Exchange and also took their interview prep course. I got offers from BB including Goldman. The instructor at AnEx was very helpful and gave me great advice on how to network, etc. too.
I think you should really look into it. AnEx will be very helpful.
spammer
DO NOT WASTE YOUR MONEY ON THOSE STUPID COURSES
Screw these spammers. I wouldn't do any of these expensive programs when spammers are promoting them.
How easy is it to lateral in S&T from MM to BB? (Originally Posted: 02/15/2017)
Hello,
I have read quite a few threads about individuals lateraling from IB MM to BB on here, however there doesn't seem to be much information on lateraling for s&t. If I were to take a SA position at a non-US bank (think Macquarie, HSBC) and work full time (potentially on a sales desk) would a move to a BB be probable after a few years or is headcount in s&t so limited that it's not a strong probability?
Thanks all!
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