I currently work at a middle market bank in industry coverage in NYC.
I just received a lateral offer from a larger bank. I'm likely going to accept but recognize that things have probably been relatively easy on me here (80 - 90 hour weeks). I'm just wondering how big the difference in culture will actually be.
If anyone has made a similar move or can offer some insight I'd greatly appreciate it. Understand this is largely group dependent as well.
Thanks
Comments (176)
MM to BB IBD Reneging (Originally Posted: 02/21/2014)
Let me preface this by saying that I read through most of the previous threads on reneging and I wanted to get your thoughts on reneging from an MM IBD to sign with a BB IBD.
I'm from a complete non-target and did not get either offer through OCR. Because of this, I also doubt that I'd have a lot of success leveraging the MM IBD SA into BB FT because those firms don't come on campus. I signed with the MM several weeks ago but recently received an offer from a Top 3 BB.
What is the likelihood that HR from the 2 banks communicate and my offer gets rescinded?
Does anyone know what the procedure is from HR's standpoint when someone reneges - do they contact other banks, or do they not care?
Lastly, I'd appreciate any opinions on whether its worthwhile to jump from a top MM bank to a top BB if you have to renege and burn bridges in the process.
Thanks!
How much risk are you willing to take - and is the BB offer worth so much to you that you're willing to risk both offers?
Frankly, it's unpredictable as to what exactly will happen... If it's probable that the MM will find out (possible in a top MM) which BB you're going to, then the chances of you getting fucked is way higher. HR will most likely contact them considering you've already signed your offer, and it's all downhill from there.
'I' wouldn't do it, but it all depends on your risk tolerence. Make sure you consider your situation more carefully - if you mess up, you'll end up a non-target with no offer who's blacklisted from two banks.
Question for you - did the interviews with the bulge bracket firm take place AFTER you already received an offer from the MM firm? If not, then for future reference, you should have followed up with the bulge bracket firm more proactively, explaining to them that you had an exploding offer from the MM firm that you had to respond to.
If yes, then, also for future reference, you should have made clear at the outset (e.g. at the early stages of the interview process) that you already had an offer on the table. Now, if you did do exactly that and the bulge bracket firm decided to extend you an offer regardless, then I think you would probably be in a safer position (though nothing is guaranteed) to renege on the MM firm.
Generally speaking, however, the potential consequences of reneging on a job offer is usually greater than the potential reward.
In your situation, HR is not really who you should be worried about. It's the senior bankers that you interviewed with in the final round/superday - these are the one's who make the final decision. If the senior bankers from the middle market firm are chill, you might be able to get away with reneging. If they are ass holes, then you might want to reconsider.
Remember, this industry is a small one, pretty much everyone knows each other. If a MD from one bank wanted to go out of his way to screw over some kid who reneged on him, it would not be hard at all for him to make a few phone calls and figure out which bank gave you the offer.
Good luck.
This is a great post. One thing I'd just add / clarify is that for SA, the MDs probably aren't going to be heavily involved or care too much. Although they likely played a part in the offer decisions, I doubt they are so plugged into the recruiting process that they'll care enough about an SA reneging to go find out who it was, let alone where they're going.
That said, it's possible some MDs are just complete dicks and would want to screw you over; I haven't encountered any but I'm sure they are out there.
Just an idea: you could accept both offers, and show up for work the first day at the MM and exclaim "this isn't for me!" and quit, then continue your internship at the BB. Might even get to keep some of your signing bonus at the MM too ;)
- IB Course
- | Suggested Resource
Learn More7,548 questions across 469 investment banks. The WSO Investment Banking Interview Prep Course has everything you'll ever need to start your career on Wall Street. Technical, Behavioral and Networking Courses + 2 Bonus Modules. Learn more.
This is an interesting situation to be in. Nevertheless, it is a situation that happens each year during recruitment season. You see, you are over-thinking it. HR is not going to contact HR at the BB and screw you. As an incoming summer intern, the fact of the matter is these banks do not value you as much as you value them- Until you prove yourself down the line. Take it from me, I have a few friends who did exactly this- Receive offers from MM banks and reneg to go BB. They are currently doing just fine.
To further play devils advocate, your prospects going into FT recruiting will be better from having a BB on your resume as opposed to a MM (which is still great).
Bump. Would be interested in hearing more perspectives.
Just to add some more information - I've had no contact with "senior bankers" at the MM, didn't interview with anyone senior other than maybe 1 VP.
which of the following two things would make it harder for you to sleep at night:
1. knowing you turned down a BB and that your future prospects are potentially marginally dimmer because of it
or
2. a small chance you'll get totally screwed over and need to bust your ass for FT recruiting to land anything at all
"Success means having the courage, the determination, and the will to become the person you believe you were meant to be"
Are we talking Piper to GS or Jefferies to BAML? If #2, not worth it.
I'm guessing Strong MM means (JEF/HL/WB) to GS/MS/JPM
Bump
shameless re-bump
HR procedure will vary by bank, but more likely, will vary by individual
While not good for your reputation to reneg, need to weigh against benefits of your other opportunity
Most likely outcome - someone in HR is pissed for 5 min, then stops caring and life moves on..
Would be foolish not to take the BB offer
bump
.
Dude. People freak out about these things. I'm in b-school and have had a job before. You renege.
Show the bank the same respect they show you. Do what is best for you.
If you do renege - keep your mouth shut on where you'll be going if they ask you. Because if someone wanted to be a dick and look you up, if you're coming from a complete non-target, it won't be too hard to find out where you got an offer.
Truthfully though, an SA hire doesn't matter much to a bank. If they lose one, they can easily find someone they like just as much next on their list. So I doubt it will come to someone really wanting to go out of their way to screw you. And since you didn't get either offers through OCR, your risk is greatly reduced compared to being at a target where in worse case scenarios a student gets barred from OCR and offers rescinded because some firm threw a fit.
RENEG!!
Lateraling from Top MM to BB/EB (Originally Posted: 11/16/2014)
How difficult is it to lateral at the first year analyst level from a top MM (Baird, Houlihan corp fin, Harris Williams) to a BB or EB if you come from a target school (HYPW)? How long do you usually need to work before being able to lateral over? Thanks in advance.
Not hard even if you don't work in NYC. I've seen numerous laterals from my MM firm. I'd be ready to put in 9-12 months at your MM and really knowing your stuff is a given.
Thanks for the insight, man. Which banks do your colleagues usually end up lateraling to in NYC?
MM to BB Lateral (Originally Posted: 01/06/2013)
What kind of chances do analysts at good MMs (think HW, HLHZ, Jefferies etc) have for lateralling over to BBs?
Also, what is the usual route for doing this? Do you work for a couple of years and then start sending out feelers to other banks?
Would recommend doing this after your first year. Most common route seems to be through HHs / friends.
Before making this move, I'd ask what your key motivation for lateraling would be. There are lots of issues w/switching banks (e.g. being bumped down a year, losing credibility that you built up since your work product is unknown etc.) though moving from a MM to a bulge CAN help w/buyside recruiting...
From what I've seen - the opposite is more common: BB -> MM. A lot of BB guys after the Analyst 3 or Associate years get tired of the hours and move on to a smaller shop where they get promote to VP/ED with perhaps less prestige, less opportunity for making the huge bonuses of BBs, but much better work-life balance.
The better work-life balance thing doesn't make a ton of sense to me-heard of people at all three shops (HW, Jefferies, HLHZ) getting killed, especially at the junior level. Definitely group dependent but not true that MMs always have better QOL
i mean sure less prestige okay, but last time i checked most BBs are capped like 100-150k for cash bonus, the rest is paid in stock and you'd be locked in for a time period...
SO lmaoo if anything, going to a MM after a 3rd year can be advantageous since a MM firm like HW/Houlihan that is privately traded and didnt need TARP money (so there is less regulation) will actually not only pay you just as much or more $ (yes gasp/shock that MMs today are paying more than BBs often times post-lehman because they dont have rogue traders or insane losses from prop-trading or huge ridiculous overheads), but all in cash. this is such a typical BB person hating on MM firm lol
oh also to point out, BofA, CS, Barclays, UBS (do they still have an IB team in US? lol), Citi ALL have cut employee headcount in the past 6 months by the thousands (only one that has been growing really in Wells Fargo-props to them), some by the 10 thousands since summer alone...so again, being at a top MM also can allow for better job security. so dont condescendingly make it seem like the move from a BB to a MM is being demoted when this arguement shows that it could be a step up if you're a long term banker.....but sure if you want to do 2 and out to PE than yes BBs generally will have the leg up. im sure compbanker would like this post specifically as well ;)
fucking old threads
HW is a pitchbook mill .... or so pe firms claim.
Since BB pe recruitin happens mostly in your first year, how does this affect the timeline for laterals? Would you have to stay an extra year assuming you come in as a second year?
+1 because when PE firms go to get investors and said investors look at who works there they will ALWAYS be happier seeing Harvard, Harvard, Penn, Harvard, Stanford...etc. instead of Penn State, South Harmon Institute of Technology, UC Riverside..etc. If you think I am wrong... go to EVERY PE website and see if A) they have a "team" page and B) if it lists the pedigree..Ya its unfair and are they missing potentially better\smarter candidates... But at the end of the day... You can teach someone to model and edit fonts, commas, color palettes... you can't change your diploma..
Same concept for all of those that played high school sports and were "really good but an inch too short".. You can teach skills but you can't give tools... Which is why the 6'5" receiver goes D1 10/10 times
Lateral from MM to BB/Elite Boutique (Originally Posted: 08/18/2014)
deleted
HL, Jefferies, and HW all place well, albeit into different spaces. I know many SA alum who also have placed fine. These are five very different firms, and it all depends on where you are now and what you want.
Want to do MM PE but I feel that I am at a disadvantage coming from a MM shop compared to BB and Elite Boutiques.
Again, it still depends. You'll probably always be at a slight disadvantage but the question is still, what kind of MM? How big is the disadvantage where you want to play (lower MM is very different from UMM)? Is it big enough to justify the fact that you're likely going to lose a year when you lateral? If you're diligent and start early it's (relatively) likely you'll make it to PE--it's just that you won't necessarily end up in as large or prestigious a fund.
edit: I don't mean to sound like I have answers when I don't; I'm struggling with similar thoughts. But if the goal is just to get to PE, you're not necessarily at an advantage just coming from the BB. The huge differentiation occurs in the size of fund and name brand associated with you thereafter. This is coming from people I've spoken with on the buyside, so I trust it more than I would just based on my own intuitions.
.
-
For what it's worth, I'm at a similar bank in NY and experiencing the same difficulties. I think my decent transaction experience and good undergrad got me in the room at some good MM shops. But all of those firms have only BB/EB associates, and everyone I'm competing against/meet in the interview works at a BB/EB. Definitely thinking of lateraling myself, as one year extra in IB at a BB/EB sounds better than staying at a MM IB for a lot longer than that.
Lateral from MM to BB or Elite Boutique (Originally Posted: 12/16/2009)
FYI, I'm a 3rd yr analyst at a MM bank. What's the precedent for an analyst at a MM bank in m&a lateraling to BB or elite boutique? Going further, is it better to lateral as a 3rd year or wait for associate promotion and try to lateral then? Is this possible through headhunters or majority through networking? Buyside recruiting is not going as planned and major concern would be whether chances of a lateral move would be diminished after having the associate tag.
Cheers,
Ben
It'll be tough right now due to the market, but I've seen both happen during my three years...
When i was at Morgan, two guys lateraled over, both from "no-name" banks Dresdner Klein/Wasserstein and one from Miller Buckfire and they started after their first year and were pushed back to first years.
But a guy from USC/Piper got a pure lateral to the Tech Group, but I think he was giving some "favors"
--
Interview Guides
GMAT Tutors
WSO Resume Review
Current:
Senior Analyst - Hedge Fund
Past:
Associate - Tech Buyout
Analyst - Morgan St
As for waiting until associate, i think you would have to argue for an associate to associate lateral when markets are good, right now they can pull laid off bankers and are still pushing people back.
You also have an influx of 2+2+2, 3+2+2, etc people coming out of bschool and aren't able to land new PE/HF jobs and they're also crowding the market.
I think if you can make the move now, do so.
--
Interview Guides
GMAT Tutors
WSO Resume Review
Current:
Senior Analyst - Hedge Fund
Past:
Associate - Tech Buyout
Analyst - Morgan St
definitely possible. seen Jefferies to Greenhill and haver heard of others. i don't think the associate tag will hurt. also, it's not like analysts are the only people who switch banks. when and md goes from one shop to another it's essentially the same thing.
"Ride your bike. Drink good beer."
- Fat Tire Amber Ale
what about from lesser known regional places? ie southern mm bank to elite boutique/bb, or shoot more for a top mm firm after a year or two?
curious how ppl go about finding the lateral opportunities (i would assume through headhunters-- hpw did ppl find these headhunters..
IVY for Life
Lateral as early as possible in your career. It will help for buy side options as well as business school if you are interested.
How to lateral from MM-BB to BB in one year (Originally Posted: 12/06/2007)
Hi bankers,
I am going to be an analyst this coming fall at a MM-BB (think BofA, Bear Stearns, Deutsche) and have heard many horror stories about the lack of deal flow in my office. Even though I know it is a bit premature, lateraling is an option that I might take after my first year. What is the possibility or likelihood of moving to BB (ML, Credit Suisse, JPMo, Citi, Lehman) from a MM-BB even if the dealflow at current employer is weaker than would be preferred. Also what can I do now to put myself in the best position to lateral to a BB? Thanks for your answers! Much appreciated!
If it's one of the three "MM" banks you mentioned, then deal flow should be ok if you are in one of the stronger groups. For associates, we receive phone calls from headhunters about positions at other banks. I don't know whether this applies for analysts.
I know of another guy who lateraled from a much weaker MM but moved over to a BB because he happened to be on the other side of the deal with that BB, and the VP of that BB was so impressed with his work that they made him an offer.
I am afraid I'm just going to be a pitch monkey...should I try to make/find contacts at other BB's to increase my chances...any advice would be great. Thanks!
How does sometone stand out like that? usually its a team working on a book not one person
Bear and DB are most DEFINITELY not MM banks. Maybe on the lower end of the BB, but 100% not MM. You don't put Bear Stearns and Piper Jaffries together.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulge_bracket
hmmm Piper Jaffray or Jeffries? Or did they merge?
since when are CS and DB "MM" banks? also, what office are you in? the deal flow is going to be decidedly lower if you're outside NYC. If you are in NYC, how can you possibly know what group you're in at this point? My advice - just concentrate on your position, make sure you do an outstanding job, and good things will happen
I said DB was a MM-BB, obviously not MM like Jefferies but not quite BB where you see the super big deals. Didn't say CS was a MM...definitely not one. From what I read and from people I've spoken to, good dealflow and brand name make such a big deal in exit ops...and I just t want to be proactive in my career and see all possible options. I obviously will try and do my best at my current employer...just looking for advice.
http://www.piperjaffray.com/
If you work hard and prove yourself, get top-level bonus, then you should be ok. A buddy of mine lateralled from a true MM to a BB. He was, however, pushed back one year, which I know does happen. If you're at BofA/DB/Bear, you probably would not be pushed back.
ARe you in Houston???
no i'm not from houston
First, don't worry so much about your "lack of deal flow" - you haven't even started yet! People love to spread rumors and talk about this crap but the reality is no way to tell until you start. And even if it's true, what could you do right now to change this?
Second, get a lot of good experience and earn top-bonus. Push to be put on good projects.
Sure, you can network and make contacts at the "real BBs"... that will help you get interviews there, but also ask yourself why you want to do this. If you really do have bad deal flow maybe it's worth it... but you will have to re-prove yourself to everyone at your new bank and your buy-side recruiting may be postponed if you do a lateral switch like this.
I'm not saying, "don't do this," just saying see where you stand halfway or so into your first year, how you're doing on the recruiting front etc. before you decide to make a move.
Hi,
Thanks for your comments. I noticed that everyone who commented mentioned getting a top notch bonus. A top level bonus is very beneficial personally, but it also holds crediblity when an analyst tries to lateral? When we interview, do we tell them we got the highest bonus for our class? Please explain why a big bonus helps in lateral moves.
So, if you got a middle of the road bonus two things will happen. One, they know that they don't have to pay you as much to get you away from your current firm. Two, they know you aren't that good. If you don't get top bonus at your current firm, why the hell would anyone want to hire you as a lateral. The bigger BB you are applying to has plenty of people who didn't get the top bonus, they don't need someone else who didn't.
No, they probably won't ask to see your pay stub to verify you got top bonus, but they could find out if they wanted to.
All recruiters and future employers will ask you if you got top bonus.
Needless to say, the only acceptable answer is "yes." Don't lie. If you didn't get top bonus at a "middle-market BB" you probably have no reason to be applying to a BB.
Top bonus shows them that you are good and that they are at least picking from the cream of the crop at your bank. Recruiters also ask this and filter resumes accordingly so it's really important.
Moving from MM to BB (Originally Posted: 03/06/2007)
Is it conceivable to intern this summer at a MM ibank then move next summer to a BB bank? Do you all think I'll get flak from the BB interviewers for this or will they discount my experience all together because its at a MM firm? Thanks in advance for the help!
You're a sophomore? You'll be in great shape for junior year BB recruitment if you do land a MM ibanking position.
If you're a sophomore with good grades they will likely be all over you because you will have more banking experience than 95% of other applicants.
Interned at a boutique/MM last summer, and was able to get into a BB this summer. As the previous poster mentioned, you will have more experience than 95% of the other sophomores, so it will definitely work in your favor. Feel free to PM me if you would like to discuss specifics.
Interview Guides
GMAT Tutors
WSO Resume Review
what about doing an ibanking internship at a boutique/MM summer after jr yr and then looking for jobs in a BB after graduation. Wish I had done it last summer. Am I screwed?
Would I be better off doing operations or wealth management at a BB and trying to move up/over?
don't do ops unless you've specifically heard of that company promoting middle-office to front office..
What about wealth management?
Certain firms i'm guessing are easier to get promotions/transfers from other divisions.
Can anyone comment on how a lehman or UBS would compare to GS or MS or other firms in this situation, ie moving from ops or WM to IB.
Best to do ibanking at a MM and then move to a BB.
Thanks!
MM/Boutique to BB lateral (Originally Posted: 06/05/2011)
assuming you're at a legit shop, how does this process work? will headhunters reach out to you or will you have to network yourself?
you should be networking regardless. all the time...
Curious as well. I'm at MM and several people in another division left for BBs, but I don't know HOW they did it. I'm not in any rush to leave (I like my job) but I am curious what the protocol is....
headhunters will call. also keep networking - groups have off-cycle positions that open up. you just need to have somebody on the inside tell you about it
Lateral from MM to BB (Originally Posted: 10/28/2014)
What is the process of lateral after starting your 1st year in investment banking? Trying to see if it's possible to go from mm to bb
Definitely possible. Reach out to alumni from your school or friends or send cold emails. They'll be able to tell you if their groups are hiring or if they've heard of anyone else hiring.
Saw 2 analysts go from Lincoln / Sagent level to GS/MS level recently. Believe they had to "re-start" as first year analysts though.
MM IB--->BB NY IBD Lateral??? (Originally Posted: 04/13/2014)
Been on here for a while and just wanted to thank everybody for the wealth of information this site provides. Anyway, im currently about to start a FT analyst program at a MM bank in the South(Charlotte/ATL/Houston) with mediocre deal flow in a generalist group. I know buy-side recruiting comes and goes fast, and my group will probably provide me little exit ops, so im trying to plan out my next move. Id like to move to a larger city(NY/Chicago) and give myself some more flexibility, so im guessing lateraling to a BB/elite boutique(if possible) should be my immediate focus.
Things im interested in-
-VC
-Corp Dev at somewhere like Facebook/Disney/ESPN
-Startups
-Possibly a HF
Things im not interested in-
-PE
-Business School
-Hopefully not getting "reset" as a first year analyst
How do I go about lateraling? Is it necessary for my goals? Will I have to start as a first year? Is BB NYC possible from a mediocre group in the south?
Thanks in advance guys.
it's definitely been done. i know people who've made the jump from strong regional banks to elite boutiques in nyc.
Get 40,000 bonus points with Chase Sapphire Preferred. Fly NYC to London for free
MM to BB Lateral, is it worth it? (Originally Posted: 06/16/2015)
Hello Fellow Monkeys, I just looking for some opinions on whether you would say a move from a lower tier bank to a BB if my current position offers the following:
1) Job security
2) Great boss
3) Not as much "red tape"
4) Lower pay (think the left side of the bell curve)
I also have only worked at my current role for a 7 months.
Thanks, appreciate the input in advance.
I'm assuming you're an analyst? So likely you have better work-life balance? If anything, stick it out until you go to B-school and then after that switch to the BB as an associate if you want to work at a BB in the end.
MM to BB (Originally Posted: 06/16/2007)
I am now working at a MM as a summer analyst in NY, but I would really like to get into a BB for full-time. People told me to use this summer to network with those top banks. But how exactly should I do? What is the best way of networking in my situation?
thanks!
Use your school network. BB's are usually pretty eager to pick up guys with summer experience in banking when full-time recruiting season comes around.
That said, it can't hurt to talk to as many people at BB's as possible while you're in the city.
Don't go all out and ask for jobs just yet, wait till you can get solid recs from your MM bank before you start doing that.
say the same
MM SA internship to FT in BB next year? (Originally Posted: 02/16/2011)
Switched from consulting to banking half-way through recruiting and missed the boat on most of the BB interviews. Go to a target and have a very high GPA but little finance experience, however, got an offer for MM IBD summer. Wondering if doing a summer stint in M&A or another strong group would position me well for BB next year? Are people able to transition?
Help and advice much appreciated.
yes, most definitely. ANY IBD experience is great experience, especially if you go to a target. you will definitely get looks.
Did you get any tough technical questions?
The difference between successful people and others is largely a habit - a controlled habit of doing every task better, faster and more efficiently.
That's if BBs pick up recruiting. Recruiting was terrible Fall 2011 with most banks not showing up or taking very few people.
Transition from MM to to bulge bracket (Originally Posted: 07/31/2007)
If you work at a good middle-market PE firm ($2-3B fund) before B-school and perform well, how easy is it to make a transition to a larger firm (Warburg Pincus, Bain Cap, Carlyle, etc.) after Business School if you decide to make that transition?
I'd like to try out a MM shop for a few years, but don't want to be closing off any doors if I decide later on that I want to move to a bigger fund.
Any thoughts are appreciated...
Does anyone else refer to PE firms in terms of MM and BB? The terms almost seem like a joke referring to firms that might be a couple or 3 hundred vs. banks employing thousands of people. I guess they'd still apply in terms of capitalization and the size of the deals...
Bulge Bracket refers to investment banks only.
PE terminology isn't particularly refined; as such, you'll generally hear "Middle Market" or "Mega Fund" when referring to funds of various size.
Leaving the terminology aside, does anyone have a perspective on the original question?
MM to BB? (Originally Posted: 12/18/2008)
what do you guys think of a possibility or a strategy of transferring from a middle market ibd to bulge bracket ibd? Has anyone done i-banking in middle market, gone to a top mba and got into a bulge bracket firm? is it impossible to do that? Would appreciate any inputs (only helpful ones - no offensive comments plz).
Once you have ib expereince and a top mba under your belt, it is by no means impossible. It just comes down to your ability to parlay your experience at the mm into a bb offer. Very possible if you can communicate well..although not gonna be easy given the current situation
Absolutely possible. If you were an analyst for a couple years at an MM you'll be a top candidate for an associate position as an MBA student.
~~~~~~~~~~~
CompBanker
If you will be an analyst starting in summer of 2009, I would venture to say it would be easier than before (2005-2007), assuming the market turns around in the next few years. My thinking is that the banks are cutting heads left and right, eventually they will need bodies, and need them fast. My two cents, although I could be totally off.
MM -> BB (Originally Posted: 08/01/2011)
Will the fact that your experience mostly falls into $50-$250 mm M&A deals play against you when BB banks look at your profile? I get that they'd prefer people who have worked on large cap deals but wanted to see if it would be impossible to break into BB whatsoever.
Thanks
Wanna know something? Nothing is impossible.
Do what you want not what you can!
damn, that's deep
Unless you are in an industry group like media, industrial, o&g, real estate, etc. (or product suck as lev fin, fin sponr, M&A) in a BB, you are probably going to do deals that small some time in your 2 year career. This specifically applies to areas such as consumer, healthcare and tech
If you have good exp in deals that are ranging from 50-250 in M&A, you will do just fine. Just make sure you actually participated on the deal instead of just creating the book and do the mindless VDR manipulation. Understand what each deal's rationale is and be the one responsible for the model.
but to be honest, if you are from somewhere like harris, jef, i dont see why you would want to go to a BB unless you somehow get an interview with a great group.
MM Tech to Lower BB M&A? (Originally Posted: 06/07/2014)
Considering leaving a Stifel/Blair/Piper level bank industry coverage group for a lower BB M&A UBS/HBSC/DB group.
I am headed into my second year. Is it worth making the leap for a marginally better bank rep and better industry/product group? I will obviously be creating enemies at my current firm by leaving so soon.
Too wide a range of combos there. Tech at Blair is a top group that will place well already. Depending on the group, UBS and to a greater extent, HSBC aren't necessarily on the same tier as DB.
Guess it depends on why you are making the move. Are the exit opps not there at your current place?
DB/UBS M&A or FSLF would be better than any MM imo
For PE exit opps is there a significant difference between M&A and coverage?
Not sure how you concluded parity between Stifel, Blair and Piper
All three are decent MM banks. Don't over think it homie.
Lateral Move from MM to BB (Originally Posted: 12/28/2013)
Hi all,
I'm currently a 1st year analyst at a MM shop looking to make a lateral move to a BB in any geography (ideally NY/LA/SF/Chicago/London/HK). Have good grades from a semi-target that doesn't have a very good alumni network outside of the region.
I understand that it isn't possible to make the move until 8-12 months from now, but what things can I be doing now to increase my chances of success?
Happy to give more info via PM and willing to take any advice!
You will find it very difficult to move from MM to BB. What type of MM are you at currently? Are we talking one of the top shops in the class (i.e. Blair) or a no-name? Do you have connections at BBs?
Why do you want to move from MM to BB? What is your end goal?
I'm based in Toronto - one of the larger Canadian banks. Very few meaningful connections at BBs.
Main goal for moving is to give myself some career flexibility - although I do enjoy working in IB, I don't feel that it is realistic for me to lock into the career banker route when I'm only ~22 years old (no decent exits in Toronto/Canada).
If you are at one of the larger Canadian banks (i.e. BMO, RBS, CIBC), that is more or less BB in Canada, right? Why do you say no decent exits in Toronto? I know several PE, mezz and HFs out of there.
Yeah, would be considered "BB" in Canada. All the exits in Toronto have less potential upside than staying the banking route, partly why more juniors stick out the banking route and less MBAs are hired in associate roles.
Lateral to a BB in a few years from a MM bank (Originally Posted: 09/28/2008)
Hey guys,
I'm going to start working as an analyst in an MM bank next year. Assuming I do well, does anyone know if it would be realistic/possible to move to a BB bank as an analyst in a year or two as a lateral hire?
Thanks
Honestly, not too sure you want to in the current environment. The BB may demote you back to a "1st year," in which case you'll have your full 2 years ahead of you again. After one year of this job, that is pretty daunting.
However, if your mind is made up, it is possible. You'll have to network your way in and you better be able to show well after a year on the job. I certainly wouldn't place a high probability on it.
~~~~~~~~~~~
CompBanker
Hey CompBanker,
Thanks for that. I did an internship, got an offer and signed early b/c I wasn't given much time to decide, and didn't want to gamble given how hard it is to get a FT position anywhere right now. Do you know if my chances improve at all if I target the smaller elite boutiques? (Lazard, Greenhill, Evercore etc.)
-Jimbo777
We have some 25-26 year old first years because of the aforementioned demotion (from banks such as HSBC, ABN AMRO, BNP Paribas, etc.) and also from demotions following an internal lateral after rising to an Associate in back-/middle-office.
if you work at Lazard, Greenhill, or Evercore, WHY would you want to lateral over to a BB???
you'll get get experience and can move onto PE from those banks, why stay an analyst?
He's saying maybe he wants to lateral into one of those places (instead of a BB), not from them.
Lateraling from MM to BB (Originally Posted: 01/13/2011)
Did a search but my exact questions weren't answered. So what necessary steps need to be taken in order for an analyst at a reputable middle-market investment bank to lateral over to a BB?
Goal is to get into an M&A group, preferably at an elite boutique or tier 1/2 BB.
Thanks in advance. Any other info on this would be great.
5
U can make the move before u finish ur first year too. Network and play the lack of fit card. Nobody can argue
Are you speaking from experience? If so could you elaborate a bit on the lack of fit card and the response you got? I'm shopping around right now to lateral from my shop after my first year.
I wouldn't think you need to worry too much about explaining your move. Obviously the firm you're interviewing for is an upgrade in prestige/quality of experience, so the desire to move there is self explanatory.
bb banks won't push back much BC they will view it as u trying to trade up from a mm to bb. By lack of fit I simply mean describe the culture of ur old firm and why it's not a good match for u given (blank). They know u would rather work at a bb so it won't be too hard
Non-Target to MM to BB? (Originally Posted: 07/14/2014)
I'm still researching/applying to colleges (some of which are semi-targets and some of which are non-targets) and I'm kind of in the "hope for the best, plan for the worst" phase, so I've been thinking how I could still get to BB IBD from a non-target like Bentley University (which I've heard has fairly decent placement at MM/Boutique firms) by moving from a boutique or MM to a BB. Is this feasible? Also, how many years are usually spent in IB before you have to work relatively fewer hours?
We spend a lot of time making the unimportant measurable while the important remains immeasurable
Yes, simply put, it's all about connections.
It's all about your rolodex, hustle hard, anything is possible. Coming from a non-target, you can't afford to mess up on anything, including technicals, know them thoroughly - do not memorize them. Understand them. Keep a tab of deal flow & be able to articulate why certain transactions are going on, know the multiples.
There's nothing wrong with MM. Places like Piper Jaffray & Jefferies have great deal flow, pay well, and provide you with great career/exit opportunities. Understand the differences, do some research on MM vs. BB IB.
Junior Bankers (Analysts & Associates) work the most, once you get to VP level, your hours aren't as reckless. If you start as an Analyst, it can take you around 5-7 years to get to VP. Analyst (2-3 Years), Associate (3+ Years).
Any textbooks/books you'd recommend me buying besides the Rosenbaum one (already getting it)? Or any particular concepts/computer programs of which I should study particularly hard?
We spend a lot of time making the unimportant measurable while the important remains immeasurable
you can do it
Lateraling question: from small boutique/mm focusing on one sector to a well known mm or BB? (Originally Posted: 05/05/2011)
Is it easy / doable: Lateraling from a boutique / mm i-bank that focuses only on gaming/leisure/hospitality to a BB or a well known MM?
My end goal is PE so looking to set myself up with the best possible exit opp!
bumping to subscribe
If you can't use the search function, it's going to make it harder. Not sayin', just sayin'.
If you want to lateral into a similar group it may not be too hard top 30 MBA to MM isn't that difficult.
subbed
MM Tech vs Lower BB M&A (Originally Posted: 06/07/2014)
considering leaving a Stifel/Blair/Piper level bank industry coverage group for a lower BB M&A UBS/HBSC/DB group.
I am headed into my second year. Is it worth making the leap for a marginally better bank rep and better industry/product group? I will obviously be creating enemies at my current firm by leaving so soon.
Bigger class = bigger network. Bigger brand = better deal flow and better exposure. If you were thinking of leaving an elite boutique, I'd advise staying, but from Stifel, Blair, or Piper, I'd say it's worth it to make the switch.
Of course, you can't please everyone. I wouldn't say that you will "obviously be creating enemies" by leaving and you should never think of it that way. If people give you shit for doing what you feel is right, then they're probably not people worth knowing anyway. You should make sure you have friends at banks different from your own and they should be happy for you that you've found an opportunity that excites you. When you're building your brand, your priority is you.
Get 40,000 bonus points with Chase Sapphire Preferred. Fly NYC to London for free
wow thank you for the thought out response. It caused me to change my perspective on this process.
Middle Market IB internships 3rd year to BB IBD full time analyst possible? (Originally Posted: 02/09/2013)
Hey! I've made some good relations with a few middle market banks in my hometown. At the same time, I go to a good target school for BB's. If I don't succeed in getting an IBD internship the summer after my third year and get one at an MM bank instead, is being a full-time analyst at one of the BB banks that recruit heavily from my school still possible?
yes
although 80% of new hires are from SA class, then they'll poach SAs from other BBs late summer, then if there is space left over they'll consider MM SAs - it'll be tough...
Does anybody have actual experience (or anecdotes from others) in doing MM IBD 3rd year summer to becoming a full-time analyst at BB?
It's certainly doable. I'd suggest that you continue your networking efforts, with the aim of being recommended for accelerated full-time interview processes.
People get them, sure. Yes, it's also technically possible, but you need to be honest with yourself.
It's much harder to get a full time offer than a SA. If you start early, go to a target and put in a solid effort but don't succeed in getting a SA, what makes you think full time recruiting will go any differently?
Middle Market in Satellite city to BB IBD Full time...how doable is it? (Originally Posted: 04/02/2013)
I'm currently a sophomore and have networked hard in my satellite hometown. This MD at a middle market bank now wants to hire me as an intern for this summer. Say, for instance, that I get rejected at all the bulge brackets for the summer after my third year. Would it still be possible to get in at a BB full time for IBD if I interned at the middle market bank for 2 consecutive summers? How much of a disadvantage would I be to summer analysts from bulge brackets?
BB hire almost entirely from their summer class so you would indeed be at a disadvantage. however with bb sa you will certainly be desirable. there are always a few slots open to outsiders if not this time, you can always lateral with ibd experience after a year.
Obviously a big disadvantage- the summer analysts have an "in". If they perform, then the bank will give them return offer. You, on the other hand, don't have a big chance of getting FT offer as it's mostly given to SA's and few spots are left depending on the economy.
yes, also the few spots that are left for full time are usually given to summer analysts who didn't get a full time offer
Its just a numbers game... banks BB or not try to fill their analyst classes with the SAs that they know and like. There are always a handful of slots to fill though at the end of the summer save for '09 (?) but you''ll get a shot. Honestly, just get your current offer, kill it and then move on if you want. I get that you want to plan which is a smart move, but its not worth going beyond planning and starting to worry about it. You'll get a shot if you're good and you've just got to take it and run with it.
'Before you enter... be willing to pay the price'
i agree with the above, but from experience, i found BBs will recruit more after the summer program than you might expect.
just kill it at your summer gig, have your story ready on why you'd like to move to a NY BB and have your MD make some calls.
It is possible but its going to be very difficult. Last cycle the BB's kept their FT recruiting pool to mostly target schools and interns at other NYC BB firms. I would suggest you network throughout the entire summer if you want to have any hope of being thrown into that pool.
Okay, I think we got it. It'll be challenging, but the # of slots available is out of everyone's control so don't worry about it. Yes its a variable, yes you should be mindful of it if you're trying to position yourself, but stop stressing out about it. Let go of the shit you can't control, you'll have enough on your plate come recruiting time than worrying about OMGZ theres 100 of us at the superday for only 5 slots. If you don't believe that you're competitive with the pool, it's already over just go home.
'Before you enter... be willing to pay the price'
MM internship to BB FT, what things to learn (modeling etc.) over the summer (Originally Posted: 02/27/2008)
Hey,
I just accepted an offer from a MM in London. I want to use this experience to go to a BB FT. What kind off things should I learn as a summer analyst so that I can put it on my resume and also talk about in interviews. I had interviews with most of the BBs for internship positions, but I think that lack of experience and/or interviewing skills was the cause that I didn't get any offers (I had one BB second-round interviews). I go to a semi-target and from what I can understand hiring has been down, JPM gave out 1 offer as opposed to 5 last year.
So, what financial modeling, research etc. should I try to get exposed to and learn?
Thanks!
Just do what you will be asked to. everything will be helpful, and you won't be able to influence type of your assignments much, anyway
Lets say I could influence the assignments.
See All Comments - 100% Free
WSO depends on everyone being able to pitch in when they know something. Unlock with your email and get bonus: 6 financial modeling lessons free ($199 value)
or Want to Unlock by signing in with your social account?
Want to Vote on this Content?! No WSO Credits?
Join Us
Already a member? Login
Related Content
See morePopular Content
See all