I’ve always heard of Wall Street as a cutthroat place. I’m curious how this plays out in the workplace. Which groups are known for being the most cutthroat?
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Jefferies Houston
Why is this funny? Feeling stupid rn lol
The ultimate sweatshop
Been mostly covered up (obv a bad look) but this office is infamous for an analyst snapping and literally murdering a VP by slitting his throat.
guys the group is dying, oil and gas in Houston was hurting since last year pre all these oil issues. google it
this aged well
I remember when I was recruiting, one of the associates told me he chose Jefferies for dealflow over culture.
He said with a smirk that it didn't matter to him if he doesn't like his co-workers and that friction exists anywhere you go. Huge red flag for me that signaled toxic work culture.
I bet I know his name
which city is this
Big yikes, especially when a lot of other Houston banking cultures are pretty tight knit.
Haha. I also remember at one of their info sessions someone asked an MD why he chose banking as a career and he was like "I'm gonna be honest with y'all, I like the money"
Take it easy on the guy he is getting destroyed and trying to rationalize his decision to himself
Fairly sure I interviewed w/ this dude
yo is this guy Seth Kidd? Mans already looks like he's in his mid 40's when he's in his early/mid thirties lol.
.
Used to work JEF houston.
Name another place where first year analysts made close to half $1mm and associates $1mm.... that’s all you really need to know. Ya those people worked for that money and ya it was not a jolly good time, but I’ve never heard of anyone making that dough at a bank.
Those are real numbers. JEF used to have an edge (2010-2015) when it had the best / only good technical O&G team and relationships with every PE sponsor, sold every private Co in Permian. JEF really did control that market and still largely does even though its dead. Paid its employees very well until very recently. Lot has changed there but still exceptionally smart people and culture of working hard and producing the best materials will stick.
The current problem in O&G largely created by JEF to begin with because JEF sold all the assets with juiced engineering parameters and that became industry trend until it was time to go cash flow positive and everyone’s cost basis was too high.
Industry was toast before corona virus and now it’s clear the emperor has no clothes.
But for close to a decade it was really like that. Part of me misses it.
Could you please send me a pm?
Ask here this is website for sharing
I don't think you are a managing director.
Work in non-Energy IB, but am pretty interested in the industry dynamics (well was interested until this whole mess started). Can you explain "The current problem in O&G largely created by JEF to begin with because JEF sold all the assets with juiced engineering parameters and that became industry trend until it was time to go cash flow positive and everyone's cost basis was too high."?
I don't buy the comp numbers, they're too far above market. There is no rational incentivefor JEF to offer analysts half a million for first year - you're not getting an extra quarter of a mil worth of PPT and Excel skill. Junior employees don't have a multidimensional-enough value proposition to command that kind of comp. Senior folks maybe, but banks aren't paying high salaries out of the goodness of their hearts. They're paying X because it's the minimum required to get top bucket talent, and that figure is less than half of what you're citing for a first year. They might throw a few extra ten thousand on street comp just to make a point about being the highest comp, but not a couple hundred thousand.
I read this in a Texas accent and WOW
Interviwed with a couple of restructuring shops and I'd say it seemed like the elbows were pretty sharp at those places.
i think that's the nature of restructuring in general. way less bs.
This. Especially at the senior level RX can get intense. First of all, clients are a lot less happy. No company wants to be working with you. As opposed to M&A where the deal ends with a win, RX ends with almost every party losing something and it’s a zero sum game. Theres also the potential for liability. Sr people can get deposed to testify about valuations or liquidation numbers etc and you have to be able to justify everything. Even at the junior level people seem to fall in one of two buckets - either more nerdy or cutthroat
Not exactly cuthroat, but MS London broadly overworks their analysts compared to other firms.
Any insight on groups at MS London on which has Cut throat and Sweatshop culture?
In London, Media & Comms and Healthcare are both very tough
I’ve heard BofA FIG is pretty tough
lol
I hear MS Menlo is a little snake-y
You can see em slithering all the way from Page Mill Rd
I don't know if this is a running meme or reference here that I'm missing, but it's fucking true.
JPM FIG - I heard there's tons of pitching, long hours, and no deals get done. Can be a frustrating experience for someone trying to work on live deals.
Lmao what, my friend is in FIG there, yes they get worked but they’re one of the top FIG groups in the street (aside from GS)
I got this from an associate that worked there and then switched into another team at JPM. Doubt she had any reason to lie to me.
Worked there. Was brutal and the people were horrific to each other, even at the analyst level...culture starts at the top.
BMO metals and mining.
heard some wild stories from this group man
pray tell
thinking about it, idk if I've ever heard anyone praise BMO's culture
Yup, and now take that disdain, stratify it into different groups and M&M will be at the very bottom of a bad group.
Agreed, M&M is a sweatshop with toxic co-workers. However, it does provide a good deal experience
Worked in that group about five years ago. Terribly demoralizing and toxic culture. There was this one Analyst that would leave sticky notes with rape threats in the desks for new joiners.
LOL WTF!
Moelis Houston
Analysts get worked hard but the culture is actually really good. Great people across the board
what do you think about the gaming and hotels group at moelis?
Really liked the analysts that I've spoken to there - seem very willing to help out
Moelis Houston is not Moelis NY; had nothing but pleasant interactions with the Houston Moelis folks; solid culture. Smart group but not pompous and pretentious.
On the other hand, my interations with people at Citi, WF, TPH, Scotia, GH, Gugg, GS...not so pleasant.
Agreed with this. I know an analyst at Moelis Houston - one of the top kids from my school and down to earth too. Have only heard good things about the group as a whole.
Folks at Moelis are great but they get absolutely destroyed. On par with Jefferies. I had very positive interactions with TPH Gugg WF Scotia and most every bank in Houston. Certain banks can be hit or miss.
How was the interactions with people at Citi and Scotia?
Goldman TMT NY is an absolute a sweatshop. A lot of the GS NY groups are pretty cool, but TMT is def not the place you go for good culture lol. I don’t think that’s true for SF, have heard it’s a lot better over there in that sense
Second this, it’s got incredible reputation on this site but my buddy (who is one of the most hardcore people I know) had to exit early due to personal health reasons
lol dont think sf is much better..https://www.businessinsider.com/sarvshreshth-gupta-death-ruled-suicide-…
yeah, heard the hours out there are ridiculous
yeah, heard the hours out there are ridiculous
There is a lot of lip service in the group (particularly NY, but think its a "goal" across both offices) about improving culture and junior work life balance, but haven't seen it fully implemented. Majority of the MDs and VPs don't really care at the end of the day as they know the analysts are going to leave at the end of two years (if not sooner). Associates in the group probably get the worst of it, since they're dealing with jaded analysts (who at least are getting great exits) and then get a lot of VP bitch work pushed down to them by them since every VP is gunning to make MD in the group and only wants to focus on client facing work. They obviously do well, but its pretty crazy that they sustain it, given how much turnover there is
deleted cause you never want to call out sweatshops. Always hurt people feels.
working for Karen in compliance
haha. I had to look it up to learn what Karen means
For those who were as clueless as me:
Karen: a white middle-aged woman, typically American, who displays aggressive behavior when she is obstructed from getting her way; such women are often depicted as demanding to "speak to the manager" and having a variation of the bob cut
Any comments on the most cut-throat S&T desks?
Have heard PWP Chicago is incredibly sweaty. My friend interned there and said it was 90-95 hours a week, both weekend days consistently.
heard GS Natural Resourses and Industrials in NY is pretty cutthroat, second hand info so maybe someone else can corroborate
Have friends in GS Industrials and colleagues who used to work for them too. Can confirm that it gets brutal. Junior people (VP and down) sound like half of them are cool and are in the trenches with you while the other half of people I hear about will throw people under the bus. Outside of that, it's super sweaty, worst hours of my friend group (between CS/Barclays/JPM/EVR/Moelis/PJT)
GS NR doesn't seem cutthroat necessarily, but the culture is very stiff / formal. They were the only group to not implement a casual Friday in NY before the broader shift in dress code for the firm. It is probably in the bottom bucket of industry teams from a fee / league table perspective (NR isn't really GS' forte), which probably drives part of the issue
GS IND is brutal for junior people - MD and VP level are fully aware of how bad the situation is, but no one cares enough to try and do anything. The junior team ends up bonding pretty well and generally is a good group of people, but always get crushed. Exits can be good (recent classes have done particularly well), but seem inconsistent
Can you pm me?
Know anything about GS Healthcare?
GS Houston was soul crushing a few years ago. Not sure if things have changed.
a lot of this thread seems to think being a sweatshop = cutthroat. Probably a correlation but not the same thing.
To that end, always thought of jefferies as being generally agressive both internally and externally. Certain BMO teams sound supremely toxic, as in is largely internal. And, given the issues with DB nobody gives a shit about what happens to their coworkers as long as they can get paid and go home. Sure all the boutiques are far more interesting though.
Also don't think banks are even remotely as hostile post 2008. Much easier to be an asshole when you can't be reported to HR.
How much power does HR have to fire MD/ED (especially if they are rainmakers)?
Would say it depends on the degree of regulatory scrutiny the shop is under: public, more employees, more deposits, and more influence on the US economy = more power for HR. This could also be interpreted as what % of the business is IB vs balance sheet but the two are somewhat correlated given that balance sheet business is more regulated by nature.
I'm not the best guy to ask, because I've only worked at one large very regulated place. However, the second HR caught one confirmed report of harrasment a MD/ED was asked to leave next day. So, I can say they have a ton of power at near the top of the scale of regulation.
I keep hearing that Jefferies culture is super fratty, is that what leads people to say its cutthroat? Because in terms of pure sweatiness I have heard far worse about EBs
NY Jefferies culture is great especially among juniors and they don’t overhire interns so you can gel with your intern class. Houston office is horrid though although first years clear over 200k - not sure if that’s gonna remain during all this.
Barclays Industrials GS TMT Citi M&T Moelis all groups
What about CS? Heard that FinSpons, LevFin, M&A are far from a good chill, but curious to hear from others how it compares to the rest of the street
CS sponsors and levfin & restructuring are known for having great cultures. Sponsors hours are amazing relative to other banking groups and they take no face-time very seriously. Heard it can be kinda douchey sometimes lol
LevFin & restructuring also pushes no face-time but it’s harder to limit hours because the group is run leaner than sponsors. Friend says the group is all very tight and humble (even seniors).
Have heard m&a culture at CS is not great. Comes down from senior management who take themselves too seriously and don’t care about juniors
TOBIN AND CO
TOBIN AND CO
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Bad hours =/= cutthroat.
https://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/moelis-is-a-sweatshop
Heard Nomura Consumer Retail is rough. Sitting around the office 90+ hours a week and zero deals
Lots of hours doesn’t mean a group is cutthroat, just that it’s a sweatshop. I personally haven’t seen real cutthroatness at the junior level—the camaraderie at the junior level in IB is real. People get cutthroat when there’s not enough money to go around—really comes into play at VP level and higher.
Have seen this in my own group (large BB cap markets group) which is ridiculously top heavy. MDs hide pitches from each other, newly promoted or lateral VPs/EDs get pushed out of deals/coverage teams or are forced to work on low revenue deals, etc. There’s very little grooming of the next generation because they are seen as competition—there’s a high chance that either them or the MD leaves for another firm, so why would the MD let the VP build a client relationship and take away his value add? Meanwhile there’s always the lurking feeling that people are about to get fired—the salary as a % of revenue just doesn’t make sense.
All of this creates a pretty toxic culture and bad hours (senior bankers are pitching for everything under the sun), but those are just side effects of the cutthroatness.
That sounds like fun.
Interesting reading this stuff. Comparatively, the partnership at an MBB firm I'm familiar with has highly structured revenue credit sharing - so you're incentivized to develop new partners and share expertise / client leads with other partners because you get a meaningful cut of the pie. Makes it harder to make big bucks and you lose some very high performing eat-what-you-kill types who believe they're worth more, but there's a fraction of the fun stuff you have above.
There's a similar dichotomy with law firms too which I find pretty interesting. Some of the old line white shoe firms (your Cravaths and Davis Polks) pay partners lockstep by seniority so you're encouraged to put the success of the firm ahead of yourself while some of the newer places (K&E is the post child of this) will massively reward rainmakers to the detriment of culture. K&E has blown up in recent years but it'll be interesting to see how they do long term. I'm sure some of the junior partners there are miserable compared to their lockstep counterparts.
Slitherin
GS TMT - The snakiest motherfuckers I've ever met
MS Menlo - On par with the above. Definition of smooth talkers who are backstabby
BAML HC - Pull your pants down and pitch
Moelis HC - Pull your pants down and make CIMs
PWP (Chicago) - Kind of funny there's a post that mentions these guys. The entire Chicago banking scene knows this group
can you please elaborate on PWP chicago?
.
How's GS FIG? A few posts here mention GS TMT as cut-throat, but how is the FIG team, culture-wise?
Very tough per my friend there
GOLDMAN SACHS LONDON
TMT FIG
Heard from a friend that banks like DBO and FT Partners are pretty relaxed in terms of competition and not really cutthroat at all. People work hard there obviously but people are still pretty chill as in they won't stab your back. That's pretty nice to hear
Blink twice if you're being held hostage
How can you get me out? Where can i go during these times? I don't want to go back. I don't regret it but I'm just so burnt out!
Murders & Executions at Pierce and Pierce.
Lazard Frankfurt - basically hell on earth.
can confirm. laz / roths constantly trying to outflex each other in terms of workaholia
I’ve heard murders and executions at pierce and pierce is pretty cut throat.
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