Why MSF or MFin?
I understand that some people who do it basically want another shot at OCR. That said, most of the very selective programs (Princeton, MIT) have individuals with work experience in fields such as investment banking, corporate finance ect. So what is the purpose of getting MFin? Why not get MBA?
Because most don't have the work experience to get into top MBA programs. I see many that fail to land their ideal (or what they think is their ideal) job out of undergrad (i.e. IB). For some reason, they magically think they'll get plenty of interviews by going to an MSF program.
Well the MSF is more for kids looking to get another shot at OCR and for more recent grads. Not to say they wouldn't love to get into the MFin b/c of the placement and brand name but as you mention, they look for more experienced professionals.
As for why choose an MFin over an MBA, I guess the answer is that they want to focus more on finance. Additionally, they seem to come from and place into more quant roles. Not to say they don't place into IB and other roles and perhaps that is the answer. The MFin will get them where they want to be at the end of the day so it really doesn't matter if they choose MFin or MBA.
Princeton's program is their only business graduate program. It is much more of an MBA substitute than any other specialized masters. More math also. Think a MS math finance type program.
You do an MSF for a variety of reasons.
1) Rebrand 2) Other shot at OCR 3) Graduate School Education 4) GPA reset 5) You are passionate about finance and want to learn more about it 6) You are junior in your career and are not a good fit for an MBA
An MBA is about rebranding and possibly about a business education (depending on what UG major you studied and what type of work you did post UG). You also learn as much from your peers as you do in class, which is why selective programs tend to be a better value. An MSF is a specialized degree with a focus on finance. You get much more in depth in an MSF than you do during an UG in finance. I'd also argue that the level of finance you delve into is much deeper than all but a few MBA programs.
As we all know, MBA admissions is a formula that includes work experience, UG GPA and reputation, GMAT, etc. So if you went to an unknown school, have a lower GPA and can't get a good job, the MSF could solve all that. Would give you a brand boost (most of the main MSF programs are from well regarded schools), you can do well in the program and have a much better GPA to sell yourself on and all main MSF programs have a variety of solid OCR (banking, Big 4, F500 FLDP programs, consulting, etc).
Many people fail to realize that there are some schools people attend that literally have no F500 recruiting. Stuff that people simply take for granted other schools have none of. Some UG schools are really niche and people look for something bigger. Some aren't near a major city and don't have internship opportunities. Etc. The reasons are endless.
MSF Tips: Why You Should or Shouldn't Get One (Originally Posted: 10/20/2015)
Four years ago, I made a fateful decision to get an MSF degree. I badly wanted to break into Wall Street, live the lifestyle of a big swinging dick with models and bottles, and not have to study a buttload of stuff like a doctor or engineer. I was successful at it, but I did see several people fall short, even Americans, who should've had an easier time than international students who comprise much of the programs.
If you want to get this degree, here are some things you need to know.
1. You are not going to escape a bad UG school name and major
If you went to Southern North Dakota State with a major in history, getting an MSF from Vanderbilt or Claremont McKenna will not excuse you from questions like "Why Southern Missouri? Why history?"
2. Your GPA is everything!
Many schools with OCR have filters that do not let you apply to certain jobs (as in have an "apply" click button) without meeting that GPA requirement. Don't let anyone tell you "no one cares about your grades in grad school." They will try.
3. Most professors will not give you less than a B
This happens even if your total points are below 83% of points offered. This may seem like a good deal, but in reality, employers sadly know it. As 3.0 is the min to keep in good standing most places, a 3.1 is a huge red flag.
4. If you're a domestic, you're not going to get slack from employers
This does not happen just because you have to compete in the class with mainly Indian and Chinese dynamos.
5. The international students studied tons of math
Most of those Indians studied engineering, and even the kids from China, who mainly studied finance, were forced to take as much math as American engineering students do (Calc I-III, LinAlg and DiffEQ) per their core curricula (see http://www.sem.tsinghua.edu.cn/portalweb/appmanager/portal/semEN?_nfpb=…). American finance students almost never go past Calc I and Stats I. Hence why number 3 can feel unfair at times.
6. Past experience of finance majors at non-target UGs
If you went to an ultra non-target, it may seem like finance as a major at non-target UGs attracts party guys who aren't terribly bright. Do not let that fool you about how smart the former finance majors in your cohort will be, or the other Americans who are in your program.
7. Undergrads are more sought after than you as an MSF student
They're seen as "having got it right the first time," or more "competitive (aka good at what they do)," and the culture, arbitrarily and unfairly, does think its better to be younger than older when starting, so they can feel less bad about churning you. Finance is the most shallow, superficial industry out there. An M7 MBA or target UG, where your classes may overall be less quantitative with fewer STEM background kids, is viewed as better because other people know it more, just because.
8. People will ask you "why not an MBA?"
Be prepared.
Thanks for the insight. But don't MSF programs require some kind of work experience? Would an MSF make any difference if as a US citizen studied finance in a whole different country? Also if someone is starting an MSF they might be 22 or 23 how can there be a major difference in being 21 other than "having got it right the first time". Are banks that inclined to offer visas for international students?
To be honest you really questioned my decision on whether I should get and MSF or not. What else can you tell us about your experience? where did you study? how do you know what employers think about candidates? etc.
Thank you.
it's a tough world out there and MSF don't solve all of your problems. It's solving mine at the least because I'm not expecting as much
If you're an American national who studied finance in a uni outside of the US, unless its Oxbridge, Sorbonne, you're finished.
Work experience is strongly recced for most MSFs, but rarely required. And 22/23 is fine; however, I've seen many 25+ get MSFs and it doesn't always turn out.
exactly why I may switch to MBA
I stopped reading after your #1. People don't go to MSFs because of brand, they go there because of the exposure. CMC's brand isn't even that great but the program is solid with lots of opportunities. OSU is a state school, but their program has great placements. Same goes for Villanova, wake forest, and others. Vanderbilt has great program too, decent brand, but trust me, people don't go there for the brand. There are loads of great US no brand programs. So your statement doesn't make sense. I'm not reading it anymore, sorry. Lol
EDIT: CMC and Villanova have brands, they're strong liberal arts schools, but they're irrelevant to business people. Only thing that makes them great the content of their programs, networking opportunities, and they have very strong connections within the finance industry.
This post is for them.
virtually all Indian universities sound generic to me, except the top IIT (delhi, kanpur) or ISB or IIM (Ahmendabad).
All chinese universities can be generic to me as well, except Tsinghua, Peking, Fudan and HKUST/HKU and a select few.
how do you differentiate? MSFs.
Villanova has a pretty good UG business school. Claremont is a top liberal arts school.
People go to MSF schools from smaller UG schools all the time and land great jobs. Going to a lesser known school isn't a sign you're an idiot. It's simply a sign you went to a school that doesn't have a lot of Wall Street recruiting.
And plenty of schools will give you less than a B. Furthermore, a B in a graduate program is a lot more difficult to get than at the UG level. I've never encountered one recruiter or banker who discounts a masters GPA.
An MSF is a great degree, but it isn't a guaranteed ticket to IB. It's a great education, it provides a new brand, new alumni and OCR. As with everything in life, it comes down to the individual and how they take advantage of the opportunities provided them.
I went to a state school in Georgia and have a law degree from a T3 school. Afterwards, I gained 3 years of Finance experience. For me, the MSF would be a way to make up for time lost. I'm older so for me the MSF at night at Georgia State would be a way to catch up salary wise.
didn't really wanna ask this, but why would they throw you extra money because you finished a MSF in a state that has Emory, Georgia Tech and Univ of Georgia. There may be online options that offers less stress for a better alum network. Debt is likely, of course.
No one in the thread is wrong. Everyone has their own anecdotes and experiences in their programs.
International kids can and do get jobs from MSF programs. A lot depends on their English fluency and their ability to network, accept a wider variety of jobs and their performance in the program. All the international students in my year got great offers. Every year since I have seen many succeed, some fail and others simply take a little longer. Sadly, the USA is myopic and hinders internationals who want to stay and work in the US.
As for brand name, it is the same as MBA rebranding. You'll always have your UG school on your resume, but you'll also have your masters. It isn't as if once you go to a non-target school you are forever cursed. Furthermore, there are plenty of "non-targets" that are great regional schools, well known sports schools, etc. I am sure Arkansas is non-target, but tons of people are going to talk SEC football with you and want to hear about your college experience. There really is two categories (maybe three) of non-target. But that is besides the point. A big selling point of a masters is the ability to "re-brand" while still maintaining your MBA card.
As for GPA, some MSF programs are easier than other. But many are not and just about all of them provide an education in finance that far exceeds what you learn in undergrad. Not that you need to known high level finance for banking, but I have found in my life that things you learn come in hand at different levels of your career and points in life.
MSF programs provide many benefits which differ for each student. In my case I always wanted to go to grad school and was very interested in finance. I went for the education, a chance to relocate and an opportunity to redirect my career. Others go with the sole purpose of getting into banking. Some people want to change careers, others want to sent themselves up for business school. Some simply don't want to work yet and are looking for a 5th year in college.
Recruiting is difficult in a masters. You have only one year to execute and the bar is high. You 100% need to be networking, interning, studying, etc, way before day 1 of class. You need to have a game plan and a sensible approach towards achieving your goal. In the 5-6 years I have been doing what I do, the thing that really determines success in these programs is an understanding of what you are going to face and a measured plan of attach. If you want banking you need to know the alumni and recruiting landscape of the program you are in. You should be trying to land an unpaid internship either before or during the program. You are going to need to have interview guides and work on those until you can answer questions cold. You need to be able to answer why an MSF, why not right from UG, etc. You need a serious approach to things.
People that struggle tend to get caught up with being in school another year. Or they tend to get behind when it comes to networking, interning, applying for jobs, etc. They also tend to have a myopic career view. If you want banking you should also be targeting valuation, Big 4 TAS, boutique firms, etc. Aim for IB, but also apply for the next best thing. Lots of people go into almost banking positions, gain some experience and continue to network and then lateral into banking within 6 months to a year.
As for the absolute value of the degree, I think it is evolving. The number of programs, quality of schools offering them and the number of graduated alumni working in finance has grown exponentially since I graduated. The more MSF graduates working in finance means the more recruiters that understand the degree, the most people you can reach out to, etc. Also, the MSF becomes more valuable as you gain experience. I used to think most MSF's would simply go into MBA programs, but I now see that majority of them continue to work and not go back to school.
In the future I think you will see more top schools offer the degree which will lead people who want a brand and a graduate degree to think twice about a 2 year MBA. The MBA will always be king, but I think the MSF will grow to be a nice option for people who don't want to leave finance, but maybe need a better brand or a year off from work. I mean if you worked in TAS or valuation for 2-3 years and say wanted to do IB in Houston then you could do the UTA MSF and apply for associate positions. The only thing stopping MSF graduates from coming in above an analyst level is the fact that MSF students tend to have little to no work experience (or irrelevant work experience). I think this will increase as time goes on.
I wanted to throw an SB but I have zero credits lol.
Just find this suggestion after 7 yrs, still helful. Thanks
In my experience, a MSF can provide a good ROI if utilized correctly, but most people that actually get accepted into the top programs would be better off not going.
I would say the average person in a top MSF program has around a 3.6 GPA, previous internship and went to a non-target.The majority go through full time recruiting, strike out for whatever reason and use the MSF as a second shot at recruiting. However, this costs $45k+opportunity cost+a ton of effort in class+networking+GMAT prep and the most common placement is into MM IB. The vast majority of the students that end up with a MM IB offer could have just hustled their way into a role like Big 4 valuation, a tiny boutique, F500 finance, etc. and put that same networking into lateraling into a MM or BB IB a year later.
Yes, you get a year of education out of it and the classes are high-quality. But lets be real, very few people are there for the education aspect. It also becomes a little ridiculous if you decide to go on the IB-->PE-->MBA route as you end up pursuing yet another graduate finance degree.
So ture
Point #2 is simply wrong
agree, after HR screen, most people don't really care about your GPA. Maybe some people somewhat care at the undergrad level when you are applying for internships but that is it for the most part. Unfortunate that this type of false blanket statement is in large font, bolded on the front page.
@
the key is recruitability. Those stats and stats certainly help, but we all know they have tons of noise. Note that MSFs only have open jobs after MBA/Undergrad's leftover. It's hard to define recruitability in a specific way. If one is truly like "3.5+ and >700 GMAT and Solid Internships", OFTEN they should be enough to UG be recruited for a Full-Time job directly, although GMAT can't help yet.
The bread and butter of MSF is the "99% employed after graduation"
Then you might have a few type of applicants: 1. Foreign UG - Visa is obviously why they didn't get a US job directly 2. Target niche - UG is enough for some sectors, but maybe not for IB/AM/HF etc. 3. Forgot recruiting - UG is enough for anything, but partied too hard, or too technically concentrated, or graduated in summer/winter cycles, etc. 4. Aliens - worked in another industry for a good while, decided to join the Financials through MSF (why MSF and why not MBA? type)
Lastly, they'll have weakness, but it's crucial to only have weakness that they can fix for you through their classes and branding. If somebody has a personality issue, even the 4.0GPA/800GMAT can't help.
1) in order to graduate you need above a 3.0. People can and do fail out of masters programs.
2) masters GPA trumps UG GPA. It's a grad degree. I've never once heard from anyone that a recruiter ignored their masters GPA. Individuals can choose which to emphasize and sell depending on which is higher.
Grad school is harder than UG. That GPA can and should carry more weight.
3) MSF applicants compete for the same jobs UGs do because of their experience level. This applies mainly to banking. Other jobs oftentimes give you a slight bump for your masters. If you have relevant experience you'll compete with MBAs. There are no "left over" jobs.
What are your thoughts on Cornell's AEM MPS ABEIC in Finance? Do you think the Cornell brand is enough?
I don't know what all those acronyms mean, but Cornell is great. Just realize you might need to go outside OCR since you don't have a traditional business degree.
IMO, people have too much of a binary approach towards life and career. I'd love to do a MPS or other non finance degree at a top school. The network will benefit you until you die and you'll have something interesting to talk about.
Yep. I've heard that that a lot of AEM undergraduates get banking offers including BB. I don't know about their MPs though. only one graduate got boutique offer last year according to their director. but it may be because a lot of students didn't study the finance concentration
Northwestern SPS or Harvard Extension.
posted this on the MSF Class of '17 thread but felt it was directly relevant here as well: As a nontarget that worked in retail when I graduated and now im on my second finance internship, first was in advisory now I am doing valuations for a CRE firm, the MSF is already paying dividends. I would not get an MSF if I already had a good job or had alot of experience (talking non MIT/Princeton/ European MSFs here).
oh yes another thing to add:
Getting a masters in finance degree, prior to relevant experience and a good UG school, will not make you better or more valuable than an athlete from a non-target school, even if he majored in drama.
e.
Thanks for the comprehensive post. May I add that while this is probably true in the US, it works quite differently in Europe. Please note this is mostly for pre experience (MSFs
You are not going to escape a bad UG school name and major I have seen that, actually, a lot of people will escape a major non target name
Your GPA is everything!
From what I saw during the year/recruitment: no effs given about grad GPA, especially since everything was predicted
That's mostly true.
True
Mostly true, and I have actually found that finance UG majors do better during recruitment
In Europe, this is irrelevant as the 5-year master's path is the norm
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Curious, what MSF did you attend?
Why get an MSF? (Originally Posted: 04/20/2014)
I'm trying to understand what value people can get out of a Master's of Finance or Commerce to warrant an extra year in school and an extra 50k or so. Do people do it for the networking? Extra year of OCR? Trading up slightly in prestige? Does it help in applying to an MBA? If one's searching for a job in IBD, couldn't that extra year be better spent dedicated to mass applying/cold-calling etc? What about MaCC vs MSF? Forgive my lack of knowledge, that's why I'm asking.
I too am interested in this thread. Unless you go to MIT, I see the vast majority of kids aren't landing FO positions. A big problem with a lot of these MSFs is that they start in the summer so you can't even leverage them to get an internship. I'm interested in UTA in particular, but you have to do courses for 3 weeks in the middle of the summer. This is very unpractical if you need to gain real world experience.
Depends on where you go. Programs like Vanderbilt, BC, and Claremont McKenna all start in the fall and I can attest personally that they will help you get a summer internship before the program starts. A few kids in my incoming class solely relied on career services to get them an internship, and it worked.
In response to OP's question, I think a lot of students use it to rebrand themselves, especially those who went to non-targets or pursued a non-business bachelors. I went to a non-target and our OCR was nonexistent for investment banking or Asset Management. An MSF at one of the top programs really opens up other opportunities that I never would've been privy to. As for cold calling/mass emailing, I don't see that stopping while I'm in my program. I'll still be doing everything I can to network, I will just also have university resources to draw upon.
I definitely don't think the program is for everyone, but it fills a market for those who have yet to receive FT offers or didn't have access to the opportunities available at target schools. Furthermore, many of these programs offer fairly substantial scholarships, so the 50k can be reduced a fair bit.
A lot of people on this forum just don't understand how hard it is for most people to get into FO finance. Kids at target schools watch their friends basically just decide on a whim that they want to do finance and have an internship lined up with a job waiting for them at the end. I went to an UG that had zero finance recruiting to the point where I had never even seen a FO posting on my school career site until I got my MSF.
Some schools start in the fall and help out students to get an internship before the program. The ones that don't also allow for internships for students during the year to help out with off-cycle recruiting in the spring. Either way it helps to have internships coming into the program, although its still possible to land a solid job without a lot of internship experience. People on here will tell you that you are completely screwed if you don't have an SA before your final year of school, but from my experience there is plenty of non-BB FT recruiting in September and October, and even a good deal of off-cycle opportunities that pop up throughout the year; Most of my superdays were in the spring.
In my program(Villanova/UT Austin/BC) the majority of the program got FO jobs. The ones that didnt have glaring weaknesses in their resume or interviewing/networking skills, or just don't care. They give you all you need to get the job you want, the rest is really up to you and some just don't take advantage of it.
In short, nobody really "needs" the MSF for anything, and for me and most of my peers it isn't about learning at all. If I could spend 1 year of my life and $40k to go from a BO job to IB, for me that's worth it and will pay off within the first year of FT work. For a lot of people in the MSF program, its not a good investment, but if you use it in the right situation for the right amount of money it can be a valuable tool.
The value proposition is three-fold: a new network, another shot at recruiting and additional coursework. If you go to a program like Duke, you will have opportunities that simply don't exist at non-targets or that would be very tough to get, it is a huge difference.
Macc vs MSF all comes down to whether you want to do finance or accounting, they're very different animals.
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