Private credit cultures
Haven’t seen a good thread talking about the culture of the different private credit shops. Thinking the more senior focused places like Golub, Antares, Twinbrook, etc
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Work in PE. have interacted with golub and antares and the assocs sound miserable. also they're just terrible in processes (onerous terms, inflexible, underbid EBITDA, etc.). would recommend staying away or looking at other better positioned credit firms...
Please explain what you mean by “better positioned”? Those are 2 of the best established PC shops on the street, so I’m confused.
Curious as well. I thought those shops were actually very sponsor friendly...
I work at another private credit shop but interact with Antares and Golub a frequent amount - their reputation is definitely Sponsor friendly, which is partially why they lead so many deals (that + their hold size). Antares is more middle market vs. Golub but regardless, from a co-lender’s perspective they often steamroll over our input in order to maintain their Sponsor relationships. Wouldn’t shock me if associates were miserable due to culture / workload though.
Interesting. I’ve heard golub’s culture is very broish. Antares is supposed to have a decent culture (i .e. senior people at least pretend to care..) but I know they also blatantly pay below market because they don’t hire as many ex IB people
I second this from a co-lenders perspective. Antares is also known for being a distribution shop (i.e. backstop a syndication with a large hold and then sell most of the paper) that mis/underprices and gets very aggressive on terms. It can be pretty frustrating to be in their lender group but I'm sure it's worth it for them
what are hours like at these places?
I work for a direct lender in this tier. I usually work from around 9-9 but that can flex up or down depending on deal flow and portfolio activity. I don't have to work every single weekend but generally need to be available if things come up. Hope this helps
Is the work interesting? Do you like it?
I started last year and I'm very happy with the move so far. I came from levfin banking so I mostly knew what to expect, but the flexibility you can offer as a lender makes the work much more interesting. I like the transaction volume and faster paced environments but that may be a personality thing. I work with a few ex-PE analysts who would tell you the diligence process for new investments is pretty similar. Can't speak to that personally but there's obviously large chunks of the VDR you can completely ignore, for example. If you gravitate towards M&A and the credit markets then you'd probably like the role
That's awesome to hear and congrats on finding an exciting role. I'm actually in levfin as well now, but have generally been more interested in PE, though I would love to learn more about a career in private credit. What would you describe as the key workstreams of the junior/mid level team member in a private credit team? In PE, from what I understand, the workstreams can be roughly segmented into sourcing / evaluating / deal-making / management / exit / fundraising.
I'm imagining life in private credit is similar, but would you mind explaining maybe how management / exit might be different? I feel like a lot of the fun in PE is actually getting to partner with portfolio companies and playing a part in the strategic direction of the company leading up to an exit(obviously peripheral as a sponsor, but a part nonetheless). How involved is your team with the companies that you invest in? What parts of the job do you think are more / less interesting than a job in PE?
Not a lot of stuff written about the work itself, so just curious.
All good questions. I'll try to hit on the main points -
In a typical example, we'll enter the equation during an auction process and work with 1-2+ sponsors on leverage or market reads while they formulate their bids. It could also be an IB contact that reaches out to us for something like an opportunistic refi or non-competitive M&A process. If we're interested in moving forward, we'll screen the transaction internally to our investment committee and then provide a term sheet or grid of indicative terms.
Many places bifurcate underwriting and originations while others might have hybrid roles. I primarily focus on evaluating / executing / portfolio management. I spend a lot of my time reviewing CIMs, financial statements, QoEs, and industry research, at management meetings and on diligence calls. All that info needs to be distilled into the salient points that tell the story of how the business operates today and will likely fare going forward. The work is not unlike what you're probably used to - modeling, financial analysis, and writing credit memos. The jr person typically builds the model and develops a lot of the analysis used to inform the risk rationales and investment thesis. Ultimately you're doing much of the same operational due diligence as the sponsor while trying to converge at a similar place of comfort with the investment. On the PM side there are valuations, portfolio reviews, and no shortage of ad hoc projects that pop up. Things like fundraising and interacting with our LPs are usually reserved for sr management and the BD team.
Keep in mind you can only really do so well in a debt deal once it closes whereas equity investors actually participate in growth. Since our upside is effectively capped, we focus on identifying and mitigating all the business risks up front that could impair our returns, i.e. lose us money. Put simply: equity looks to maximize upside and generate outsized returns; debt looks to minimize downside and structure around loss mitigation. Understanding legal docs - the various baskets and their implications - and opining on terms is increasingly more of the job even at the junior levels.
One thing I like about PC vs. PE is getting to see more transactions since we're not digging in quite as deep or actually operating these companies. We're minimally involved if at all with a portco's day-to-day (unless it's distressed and/or being restructured, which is a different story). In terms of exits, I've heard of people moving to other DLs, B school, credit-focused HFs, back to banking, and PE. I'd caution you that it seems a lot easier to go from PE -> PC vs. PC -> PE.
Feel free to let me know if I missed something you wanted me to address
What is comp generally like at these places? I’ve heard a few different things: MF credit pays the same as PE, MM credit pays a bit below PE, etc.
You've probably seen this but I'm going to redirect you here since there's a lot of good info: https://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/credit-funddirect-lending-salari…
"PFSynergies
Analyst: $80-95k + 10-45% bonus
Associate: $100-150k + 25-75% bonus
Sr. Associate/AVP: $150-200k + 50-100% bonus
VP: $175-235k + 80-130% bonus
Principal/SVP: $225-275k +100-150% bonus
MD/SMD: Who Knows"
What is the culture / comp at a place like HPS and Ares?
Curious as well. Have heard that ares has a fairly brutal culture and is even more aggressive than Antares/Golub
buddy I know very well (since hs) is at ares and says it's pretty brutal but gets paid. I've interacted with them on a number of deals and they're great to work with and knowledgeable. I can PM if helpful
Would say hps has materially better culture than ares but overall fairly similar in terms of being more on the sharp / hardworking end. Expect to be working 60-100 hours a week at those places but your comp is probably north of 300 or so all in your first year
There's a big variation in there mate. You got a more precise number for hours?
Bump
Bumping if anyone has insights to culture at Maranon, Madison capital funding, Comvest, First Eagle, or HIG Whitehorse
Can’t say for certain as I haven’t worked at any of them but from what I’ve heard Madison is going to be the most chill (and least paying) out of all those. Heard Whitehorse is pretty intense
Confirmed, the rest are sweatier
Madison is senior debt only so workload / comp will be lowest of the group. Comvest and HIG Whitehorse look at hairier deals (that require higher yields), and Maranon and First Eagle can also invest across the balance sheet but don’t invest in already distressed assets / special sits. All well-respected shops in the PC space.
xxxxxx
Maranon, Comvest, First Eagle, and Whitehorse tend to recruit from IB backgrounds to pay is going to be higher than a Madison, BMO, or Twinbrook
Bump and following
I interviewed at Antares once and was surprised how little they paid at the associate level. People I spoke with seemed ok. Does anyone here have an opinion on when it’s “too late” to leave IB for PC/DL? Like do you see VPs make the switch ever? I know some of the groups in OPs post are comprised of a lot of former commercial banking or big four due diligence people. Would exiting later from MM IB even be possible?
Different skill set and if you’re a vp it’s hard because you’re taking a massive pay cut + bring no direct investing experience to the table. Of course it depends on what you’re doing in IB. If you’re working in the merchant bank or if you’re working in underwriting or maybe in structuring, think then it’s more possible but otherwise it’s just tough logistically but never impossible.
on your point on Antares, they along with most other BDCs are public for the most part and as a result underpay. Private funds generally pay more because they keep all of the. Fees. Antares also has a lower fee structure from my understanding than some of the higher yielding stuff, but they make up for it with higher AUM. It’s confusing to me how they can continue to attract talent when all in comp is ~50% of competitors
Antares junior here. Antares isn’t public, it’s privately owned by CPPIB. Pay is lower and everyone knows it, I think retention/attraction has been decent given good culture. I would say I work 40-60 hours a week and only a couple weekends per year. They are allegedly working on raising it, but all in senior associate comp was ~180k (not NYC or SF) is at least respectable I’d say. More importantly, they mainly hire from undergrad and from big 4/commercial/corporate banks where people are getting a raise to do more interesting work. There are almost zero ex IB
Does anyone know which firms pay $240k+ with 50-70 hrs a week?
Apollo
Don't really understand the monkey shit? It's a legitimate / true answer. First year associate pay is right around 250k for private credit at Apollo
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