Stuck in the cycle
I'm a frequent poster and long-time reader of WSO and this is a throwaway account. I'll admit this post doesn't necessarily have a point and doesn't really ask a question. Perhaps someone reading this will think "yes, that's me" or "try something else" or "I'll take your job if you don't like it" or "stop being a pussy". All are reasonable responses and having read thousands of posts on this site, I can say throughout the last 4-5 years I've thought them all at some point about other posts.
In short, I feel like I'm stuck in a continuous cycle and I'm not sure how to change it. My background is not typical in the sense that I went to a great school, didn't learn about finance till really late, and started in a back office job. I then moved to a MO job and finally to a FO MM IBD job where I have been for a couple years and will be direct promoted to associate this June.
I switch between enjoying M&A and not really being sure that I even like what I'm doing anymore almost daily. As I type this I'm starting to think the chase and trying to prove to people (I'm not even sure who this audience even is anymore) my start was a fluke was what I was more interested in then banking itself. The problem is my bank is good enough to send people to better banks (I was a 2-candidate finalist for a MS lateral position a few months back) but not good enough to make a true exit to a reputable PE/corp dev job. The thought of having to eat more analyst years and try to go to a more reputable bank for PE ops is something I've considered but I just wonder if eating another 1-2 years of my life is worth it. And to be honest my associates work basically the same hours I do so this feeling is essentially indefinite.
To any college students or aspiring bankers out there, I will say that banking is hard. Not in a rocket science way, but in a way that it is extremely mentally draining making sure every number is correct, that you act the right way to your colleagues, and that the hundreds of emails you send are going to the right people. I'll admit I heard this caution before pursuing this road, but its impossible to tell what it will be actually like until its midnight for the 4th day in a row and you haven't thought of anything besides work for over a week. To this day when I speak with bright-eyed college students about what its like to be an investment banker I'm not able to tell them a realistic story. I certainly wouldn't have listened to someone warning me about the toll investment banking can take on you when you see them making 150K+ when they're 23. I think admittedly I still drink the kool-aid that everyone was drinking back in college and that has been very hard to let go of.
To circle back, the cycle I'm talking about is that I've become so risk adverse that it is hard to imagine any other role whether its in finance or something different completely. I think about other careers and I really have no idea what else I would do or want to do other than be like a pop star or something (seriously I think this sometimes). I feel like jumping off the track at this point having made so many positive jumps would be a complete failure. But at the same time, it's now past midnight on a Friday and I'm too exhausted to go out and don't even really have any motivation left to do some sort of plan this weekend (outside of the work already piled up). How can anyone really know they prefer to work 50 hours a week for $100K rather than 90 for $300k+? I guess that is how I think about it, and the problem is a banker could easily go from the 90 to 50 but likely not back.
Am I the only one out there?
Feel the same...
Looking back, I question whether it was worth it. Do I have some sense of immense personal fulfillment? Not really. For the most part, I truly like my job, which is good, I guess. However, even though I like my job, the chase still doesn't end. I'm already thinking about what my next move will be. That only difference is that now I have no idea what path I want to take next. Maybe I'll stay in PE. Maybe I'll go to b school. Maybe I'll go work at a startup. Or maybe I'll just say fuck all of this shit and move to Hawaii.
Same boat.
Have you ever thought of moving to consulting? I heard it's easier to move to consulting from IB and the hours are better
I've been thinking about this a lot lately. I was promoted recently and I was reflecting on what I've sacrificed to achieve my career goals and if I have the energy to keep grinding it out for the next one. I'm reminded of something a college mentor once said..."Nothing else matters as long as that one time, you say the one right thing, to the one right girl". Which to me means that you will find something or someone who you want to spend those extra 40 hours a week with and it'll be the easiest decision you ever made.
Definitely a very common topic around the finance industry, and it seems almost a given that anyone working in finance will stumble upon this road block and ponder the meaning of life at some point.
If you were to take a step back though, and have another look at your predicament, you'll realise that all you are suffering from is a version of something I like to call the Grass Is Greener Syndrome (GIGS).
I think it's a given that we, humans, tend to never be satisfied with what we have. Instead, we choose to think about the 'what ifs' and the 'what could've beens.' The missed opportunities. His grass is greener than mine.
Whenever I feel down, and start thinking about whether all this slogging and the late nights are worth it, I think about how I'd feel if I hadn't gone into finance. I could be somewhere else, enjoying not having exams. Chances are, I'd be sitting in whatever other job I'd have, and be dreaming about a career in finance the same way I did when I was in university. The same way I still think about that girl in school I never asked out on a date.
My advice for anyone thinking the same is chin up, be happy you got the opportunity to have at least tried working in finance so you at least know what it feels like, and consider that you may be suffering from GIGS. Acknowledging GIGS usually snaps me out of it, because it makes me realise life is about choices. You can't do and be everything. If that doesn't work, then maybe take some time to consider what would truly make you happier, adjust for GIGS, and possibly take the plunge.
I asked a different girl out in school, and I still had a great time.
Whatever it is you choose to do, put your heart into it. Go all the way.
Good luck!
When questions like yours are posed, they are typically met with one of several responses: the grass is always greener, think about how less fortunate you could be, just quit your job and follow your "passion", find your passion, suck it up, etc. While I believe that these can be appropriate responses, they don't provide actionable advice. Even if you readily acknowledge that it is a psychological phenomenon (e.g. the grass is always greener) that is causing your dissatisfaction, does that mean that your anxious sentiment should just persist? Or is there an answer or remedy to your quest for something more?
Some provoking thoughts include:
(a) the notion posed by Deepak Malhotra that well educated/skilled/credentialed persons should "quit early, quit often" if they are unhappy in their jobs, as living a miserable life which is less fulfilling than some attainable alternative is a "tragedy" in the greek sense of the word (
);
(b) "synthetic happiness" is just as biochemically satisfying as "authentic happiness" (e.g. when someone makes a career decision that leads them to be less materially successful and they are later asked whether they regret that career decision and say "no, I am happy with where I am", this "synthetic happiness" is just as powerful/satisfying as "authentic happiness" (i.e. the satisfaction derived from achieving more material success due to making an alternative choice in the aforementioned career decision)) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4q1dgn_C0AU);
(c) community matters far more than any one factor in determining your happiness (and even your longevity/health) (
);
(d) "following your passion" is a misguided idea/directive because it leads to indecision/inaction, some people haven't yet identified that passion (if it even exists for them), your "passion" is likely to change in a few years and if you have staked a career decision on it you are not going to be satisfied on that basis after your passion changes, in some people's career they found that "success fueled passion more than passion fueled success" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MBaFL7sCb8);
(e) instead of asking "what is my passion" to identify a career/career path, ask "what skills do I have" and "how can I use these skills to serve others" (i.e. find a means of providing a service that is altruistic in a significant (or significant enough) respect) - note that someone might say "I accumulated all this money over the years, but sacrificed my time and energy for my entire life for this. What was it all for?" but is unlikely to say "I helped improve/save the lives of 100 people over the years, but sacrificed my time and energy for my entire life for this. What was it all for?" (
);
(f) beyond ~$75,000 (depending on where you live), the amount of money you make does not materially change your happiness (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/17/map-happiness-benchmark_n_5592…);
(g) the chances that someone will make a significant change in their habits/lifestyle is 9:1 (and making a pictorial roadmap from where you are to where you want to be will significantly increase your odds of arriving at the desired destination) (
);
(h) people do not really want to be happy, and people don't really want what they think they desire (example provided: X has a wife and a mistress; X thinks he wants the mistress and not his wife, but when his wife leaves, he doesn't want the mistress) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U88jj6PSD7w);
(i) there is an underpinning (subconscious) ideology informing all of your actions (including, perhaps, your decision not to leave your job) (
);
(j) a perpetual state of happiness is unattainable/unnatural, but that does not mean that your life cannot be significantly improved through certain changes (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxsPl2WClHg); and
(k) difficult choices are an opportunity for you to show your character/individualism (
).
I don't think there is a one-size fits all answer to your question, but I do think that there is significant research that can help you to make an informed decision and think through the consequences of your choice (while remembering (b) above). One of the most difficult aspects of actually taking action in your position is trying to reconcile what your rational brain might be telling you based on research studies, and what ideologies (conscious or not, see (i)) that you hold which may keep you in a state of inertia despite your logical conclusion that you should act in some other way.
It is also worth noting that there are still opportunities to rebrand yourself (e.g. through education). If you have found that you simply do not like finance, business school is not for you, etc., consider educational alternatives that would not necessitate exorbitant tuition bills but would still help you get where you need to be. For example, there might be programs abroad where you can get a solid education for a fraction of US/UK university fees (less than five figures in a number of instances), improve your experience and enter into a new line of work. It's also helpful to think about the possibilities of accomplishing your objectives by brainstorming about the options you have on a global level.
Good luck with your decision
Oh jeez, that's actually a solid post. Nicely done sir
You need to think about why you started. No-one's life is easy by any-means, but having the opportunity to go to the right schools and having these opportunities is a blessing that the other 99% dream of. You chose this path and were fortunate to get in the door. Now, you just have to OWN IT! If you have gotten this far, you have what it takes to stay in the game.
Thank you paperorplastic for these interesting links / for this comprehensive answer!
I'm also personally in the process of quitting my job in M&A, and although I've never felt that miserable in my life than in the past few years, it's still hard as hell for me to really quit. What is difficult is that on one hand you're paid very well, with a """prestigious""" job in which you invested years of efforts & sacrifices, and that on the other hand you end up really hating what you're doing (although you're very good at it). An additional difficulty is that when you discuss with people not working in the finance industry / or with your family, they always tell you that you should be content with what you have ("you put so much efforts to get this job!", or "you know every job has its imperfections", or "the grass is always greener etc.").
I've thought about that a lot, and I'm currently jumping off the track (pushing back work at most so I can apply / plan interviews), acknowledging the fact that by some aspects the years I spent working in finance are similar to a "sunk cost" (except some skills that I may be able to transfer elsewhere). It's a bit sad, but I think it's still the right decision to make --- when I see people in the ranks above mine, I see two categories: some are content with the life they have (good money, a nice apartment, etc.), and some are just wasting their lives doing something they hate because it's not for them......
Life is too short to be miserable or to waste too long. If you don't mind the grind, the advantages you get from being leagues ahead in skills/money are probably worth it, but at the same time, if you wake up every day dreading work, you're not going to suddenly wake up tomorrow and not dread it.
Last month I was beyond stressed with a deal close and told my MD that I was going to look elsewhere. It's almost as if a light clicked and the stress simply vanished. He and I are close, so he's helping me look, but I actually like what I am doing again (maybe because the deal closed and we're back in marketing mode for other deals). Maybe you just need some time away or to open up to someone so there isn't that lingering feeling on your mind.
And to all you prospective monkeys, IB really isn't all it's made out to be. It's a job in the end.
In consulting, not IB, but feel myself in a similar place. I'm not sure who my audience is that I'm trying to impress. I feel like any dumb advertising/PR/Whatever-Joke-Job-a-Girl-Has chick has no idea what I do or that I'm most likely doubling her salary. So idk if that matters, my guy friends def don't give a shit. I feel the same going back and forth-sometimes I'm burnt and sometimes I look back and love it. It's tough, but sometimes you've got to ride it out. This is a marathon, not a sprint. It's the tough ones that last, and that's what keeps me going and I don't plan on leaving anytime soon (honestly don't have the balls either)
Felt 100% the same way, and I think it's extremely common. Check out my thread on this from about 6 months ago: http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/as-my-username-suggests-not-sure-…
I'm walking away in 8 weeks with no plan, job or prospect of one. And I'm okay with that.
I am also extremely risk-averse and have always been an "achiever" - getting into PE had been the dream forever, and it took me many months and many difficult conversations to get comfortable with the fact that it's time to walk. But, at the end of the day, if you're compromising either your happiness or your health in a manner that feels excessive or extreme, you shouldn't stay for another day. Life's too short, and the money doesn't matter that much. The prestige matters even less - I would argue it matters 0.
You're always in the driver's seat, so don't sweat it too much.
Congrats on the decision. No thoughts on what your next steps are? Travel a bit? It's can actually be a pretty liberating feeling to be in that position. I did it at one point when I was younger and while this was an old song even when I was younger, Bob Dylan's "Like a Rolling Stone" was always a cool song to listen to. Even better driving across the country in a Jeep or on a bike.
To the OP and others, I'm not recommending that everyone leave finance because you've hit a wall-you'll hit the wall multiple times throughout your career and ask yourself what the fuck you're doing- but like FullyBurnedOutMonkey did, if you really come to the realization that this business isn't for you (and truly figure that out-don't get pissed off one day and quit or have a string of all nighters and do something stupid) it's not horrible to leave. When you're caught up on the hamster wheel and it took you so long and so much hard work just to get on that wheel it seems impossible to get off of it. It's not. There are a near infinite amount of other possibilities for a career, job and a life especially when you have the pedigree that you will have having worked in IB or PE. It's like a bad relationship with the really hot girl (or guy) that you worked so hard to get-when you're in it full time it seems like that's life and you're resigned to that shitty existence. Then you break up with her and it's a gigantic sigh of relief. Maybe your next girlfriend isn't another 10, maybe she's a 7 but she's gigantic improvement over the 10, she's a firecracker in the sack and that's who you were meant to be with. And the 10 was actually a 2 for you.
Like BurnedOutMonkey said, this business isn't for everyone and it's ok to realize it. A long term career in IB or PE is very difficult in more ways that you can imagine unless you're in it and if it's not a fit for you it would be a punishing life. You can push through it for a couple of years as an analyst and maybe a few more as an associate in IB or PE but long term it would suck (and that's why so many people leave after that time) and it does not get easier. It doesn't get easier when you transition from an IB analyst to an associate in IB or PE, it doesn't get easier when you make VP, Principal/ED/SVP (whatever they call it) or MD/Partner. It actually gets far more stressful because your ass is personally on the line for revenue production in IB or investment decision, execution and actual profit in PE. It fits some people's personality and I'd say most of the time people who like it, stay with it and are successful in it for the long term are a bit off, myself included. Not psychopathic off, but just someone who thrives on working all the time and is never really content (content may not be the best term though-it may be that everyone is miserable at the upper levels of PE but that may just be due to the profile that makes it-I'm actually quite happy and content), and that's not with regard to money, just in general. And honestly sometimes I'd love to just be content. I'm jealous of friends and family who are. There was a throwaway poster (@throwaway82694") recently who is in IB with a PE offer trying to decide if he wanted to stay in IB or go to PE and it stuck with me. Here was one of his lines:
"There was a 3 month period in which I worked every single day, including weekends and holidays. It was miserable. The rest of those 6 months were 100+ hours a week. It's funny because no one really tells you when and how much to work. I got a little ahead of myself and would ask the staffer to assign me on more stuff when I had any down time and was finished with a deal. This was not the norm." http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/2nd-year-eb-analyst-ama
And he fucking decided to stay in IB. This is a guy who is going to be a successful long term banker. It takes that type of person to do it. That rough life will carry on. I'm toggling between WSO and reading an MSA for a service company potential. It's 11:24 on Friday. I had dinner with my wife and kids, watched a movies (not really, worked) and put them to bed. Now I'm posting here because I need a break from reading my dreaded reps and warranties clauses of that contract.
My main account never got shoutouts from high profile WSO members... I think I'm just going to stay on this one haha
In response to OP's " How can anyone really know they prefer to work 50 hours a week for $100K rather than 90 for $300k+?":
Banking long term really isn't worth it if you're only in it just for the money. You'll burn out. I certainly would have. I would say that the two best reasons for doing banking are: 1) You're genuinely interested in the field and you could potentially see yourself working in banking long term, and 2) You value the skill set and opportunities that IB provides, even if you may not enjoy the job itself.
I think most people fall under number 2. If you can envision yourself pursuing some career that requires a high finance background or banking skill set, then it might be worth it to stick around. If you're not in either camp and are not even planning to stay in finance, then I honestly believe that having the high income is not worth being miserable. While banking has taught me some valuable life skills, that alone was not enough to justify the lifestyle. I understand that you're risk averse, but you're also young.
Psycho with a prostitute for a mom.
You mad?
How about you just stop harassing and thinking about people you don't know and never will?
Get a life. You're almost 50 for fuck's sake.
Spending two years of your life working 90 hours/week sucks, but so does a monthly housing payment.
Are you earning $300K/year right now? If that's the case, I'd stick it out just long enough to own a home without a mortgage, and find a 50 hour/week job after that. $100K/year seems a bit depressing compared to $300K, but it's less depressing if you're spending $800/month on property tax and condo fees rather than $2500/month on rent.
Folks, this is why I drive a rusty honda. If you live on $40K/year and have enough in the bank, working in finance is an option, not a requirement. Save now, save early, save often.
Pay cash for a house?!?!? That's crazy. Use the mortgage as a write off and invest the rest of the money in assets with a higher expected return. No one in their 20's should have the bulk of their net worth tied up in an asset that's going to appreciate ~2-3% per year in the long run.
Remember, we are all short housing. Furthermore, in a recourse state, either you're going to repay your mortgage, or something really really terrible has happened to your finances to the point that all of your other assumptions about your assets get tossed out the window.
If there are assets that individuals should be a little overweight, it's stuff that they consume. I am a bit overweight energy in my cash brokerage account. Same with my local electric utility (my state has deregulated). I have a comparative advantage over other investors for investing in the electric utility, because their "risk" of lower electric rates offsets my risk of higher electric rates. Same goes for housing- if I plan on being able to earn about the same money in the city I live in, homeownership offsets my risk of rent volatility. On top of that, on the housing front, you get a MASSIVE tax advantage for owning. Corporate profits are double-taxed (unless you own in a tax-free account- in which case it's just taxed once). REIT income is taxed once. Rent you would normally pay a landlord but get to keep instead is NEVER taxed. And on top of that, you get to deduct much of the cost of ownership, including property tax and mortgage interest. Cities also generally give you a partial exemption on property tax if the home is your primary residence (and you don't rent it out), so something like 60% of your cost of ownership turns into a tax deduction.
I think I've laid out a pretty good argument for why it can make sense to own a home-- and yes, you should get a home with a mortgage before you can afford to pay cash. I am just saying that paying 4% interest on a 30 year mortgage sorta sucks.
In most states, including New York, New Jersey, and my home state (Illinois), all mortgages are recourse. In other words, when I sign my name to the mortgage document, I'm pledging repayment even if the collateral (the home) is worth less than the mortgage. So unless something is so screwed up with my finances anyway that I have to declare bankruptcy, that 3.5% or 4% mortgage rate that I am paying is basically risk-free from my perspective. And sure the mortgage carries a long-term rate option on it, but a good chunk of the difference between a 30-year mortgage at 4% and a 10-year bond at 2% or a 30-year bond at 2.7% (although only a small portion of the PV in a 30-year mortgage is attributable to payments made in years 20-30) is my credit risk.
So if you live in a recourse state like IL, NY, or NJ (and not CA), and you think 3% is a great interest rate, and you do not enjoy writing a check every month for your housing, and you don't plan on moving somewhere else, it can make a lot of sense to (1) own a home and (2) own it outright.
And yes, you should be saving for retirement. The feds don't think any reasonable person needs to save more than $23,500 per year for retirement, and if you have an upper-middle-class but not a totally extravagant lifestyle, they are probably right. The next best tax shelter after your 401K and Roth IRA is your home. But once you max out your retirement savings accounts, there's often a lot of money left over (at least at $300K- the number OP threw out). You can stick that money in the stock market, you can stick it in the bank, or you can pay down your mortgage. I'm arguing that there's a good case for the last option for financial professionals.
If you work in finance, you already have a lot of market exposure as it stands. So I would recommend being more conservative than the stock market. And you can stick it in the bank, but that earns you 1-2%. If you stick it into paying down your mortgage, you earn a guaranteed interest rate that's higher than what you can get on CDs. The one risk with all of this is that if we hit some high inflation high rates scenario, you lose out on your mortgage losing value, but it will also be tough to preserve value in the stock market or in CDs.
If you believe it's dangerous to let a home take up too much of your balance sheet, you may have a good point- don't buy one, or be like me and buy a more modest one. My home is very nice and I am grateful to have it, but it did not cost me two or three years worth of income like most people pay. The decision to pay down the mortgage should be independent of that, however. And if you work in a volatile industry, not being chained to a monthly rent or mortgage payment makes it easier to sleep at night.
Check out some middle market PE shops if you want less hours. Some of them are 50-60 hr work weeks. Jumping ship to a mega fund is not going to lead to a better work/life balance.
Amen.
There is too much truth to this post. "I'm not even sure who this audience even is anymore".
To be successful in any occupation, is the time commitment really that different? Realistically, how many careers could you pursue that would allow you to climb the ladder and be successful while working only 50 hours?
I should have been more specific. I didn't mean sitting in the office for 90 hours a week but more the idea that you're not flipping a switch after 10 hours and not thinking about work again until the next morning. Maybe I'm still wrong, but either way I would be interested to hear more about the experiences of the people you're referring to. OP seems like he would too. Always curious to learn more about different approaches.
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