Summer Analyst dies at Lincoln International

EbbsAndFlows's picture
Rank: Gorilla | banana points 581

Did anyone else hear about a summer analyst dying recently at a Chicago MM? Apparently he had worked some crazy amount of all nighters. Unclear as to what the exact cause of death was.

I'm not bringing this up for e-cred but to say that this shit is absurd and needs to change, I'm sure it will take a while to happen but I'd hope that today's analysts and associates will improve banking culture so shit like this doesn't happen anymore. The work is important and demanding but in my mind an intern shouldnt ever be working past midnight.

Mod Note (Andy): What can WSO do to help prevent more tragedies like this? Please add your thoughts here: "Death From Overwork (Karoshi) In Finance"

Comments (160)

Jul 28, 2018

Source?

"MM, BB, EB, STD, don't matter to me"

Jul 28, 2018

Very sad if true, regardless of the reason. If it ends up being a BAML London or a GS San Francisco issue again, something fundamental needs to change and we need to have a serious conversation about the way we manage ourselves and our teams.

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Jul 28, 2018

It was Lincoln Intl

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Jul 28, 2018

What I heard as well not sure how this hasn't gotten out to news sources by now

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Jul 29, 2018

Insane. Where did you hear it from

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Jul 29, 2018

An analyst died on 7/4/14 at Lincoln in Chicago.

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Jul 30, 2018

Nah, it was less than a week ago...know a 2nd year there

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Jul 30, 2018
la_flameIB:

Nah, it was less than a week ago...know a 2nd year there

it happened in 2014 as well

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Jul 29, 2018

How has this not made it's way to the news yet?

Jul 29, 2018

What?

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Jul 29, 2018

Still no news. Anywhere.

Jul 29, 2018

If this is true, terribly sad. Really hoping it's not true.

Jul 30, 2018

Hit the news 20 minutes ago: https://news.efinancialcareers.com/uk-en/320584/ju...
WSO cited. Firm has issued a vague denial of "working all-night shifts" (no word on "working nearly all-night shifts"). Lots of glassdoor info but little else.

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Jul 30, 2018

Those statements are from different people

Jul 30, 2018

Can you elaborate?

Jul 30, 2018

Either you edited your post or I misread it. Never mind

Funniest
Jul 30, 2018

From article: Lincoln said they have "standards and systems in place" to keep these from occurring. Holy fuck, that's really high standards - to keep people from dying. Put them on the 100 Best Places to Work list.

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Jul 30, 2018

Can't stand the ridiculous IB hours but why is everyone jumping to conclusions? To my knowledge, the cause of this kid's death is unknown.

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Jul 30, 2018

The mob should wait until confirmed by a reputable source... however, it's not so difficult to jump to conclusions when this seems to happen every year.

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Jul 31, 2018

I am a family friend of the passing away student and it was not associated with the hours. Even though it is a coincidence, it is not correlated.

Btw, the student was not a out of shape individual, he was an athlete that took care of his well-being.

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Jul 31, 2018

Could you say what was the issue?

Aug 3, 2018

was thinking the same

Jul 30, 2018

Interesting that this isn't a bigger story...

"Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there" - Will Rogers

Jul 30, 2018

The only article I've seen quotes anonymous WSO posts, and we have no way of knowing what other mental/physical problems the guy had. Still sad tho.

Jul 30, 2018

Let this be a reminder to you junior guys/gals that your mental health and physical health are always more important than the job. Take care of yourselves guys.

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Jul 30, 2018

Kid went to school in Chicago, word from a close friend who was buddies with him in college was that it was a stress related brain aneurysm

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Jul 30, 2018

shivam chokshi was his name... google it and you'll see the service information and his linkedin...

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Jul 30, 2018

Thanks for dropping knowledge. To the skeptics, Lincoln International has already confirmed that someone died - only the cause of death is up for debate...

Seeing the service and his typical bio (non-target hustling for internships) really got me emotional.

EDIT: Should his name be kept off here out of consideration for family? Probably not, but just a thought. Let's be sure to be respectful.

Jul 30, 2018

i feel like the only way to create change is to actually personalize / humanize things... without a face, a name, it's much easier to just carry on business as usual. let's honor shivam and create positive change so that this sort of incident doesn't continue to happen...

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Jul 30, 2018

Literally just a non-target kid trying to make it and grind. Def hits home.

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Jul 30, 2018

This is such a bummer. I imagine the kid worked his ass off and just so this could happen...

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Aug 9, 2018

Shit, this makes me sad. He must have been a WSO reader. Him and I have a mutual connection... Patrick. We lost one of our own.

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Aug 9, 2018

Crap, indeed. Really hits home.

Jul 30, 2018

Name mentioned above is correct.

It's beyond tragic what happened here. Don't want to go into specifics but I was told (company employee source) he was having seizures at his desk. This happened at the office.

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Jul 30, 2018

I've heard the same story as this from an employee who worked with him as well. Tragic

Jul 30, 2018

If the doctors come out and say this was induced by work hours related stress that company is fucked. It's one thing when a kid has a heart attack at home in the shower, but at his desk its going to crush the analysts and I can see a bunch of them jumping ship. The company is going to have to drastically raise comp to keep morale at a workable level.

Follow the shit your fellow monkeys say @shitWSOsays

Life is hard, it's even harder when you're stupid - John Wayne

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Aug 1, 2018

yeah man they just gotta raise comp. If they raise comp then a couple deaths per year should be fine

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Aug 2, 2018

Congrats, my comment totally wooshed you.

Follow the shit your fellow monkeys say @shitWSOsays

Life is hard, it's even harder when you're stupid - John Wayne

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Aug 2, 2018

.

Array
Jul 30, 2018

Absolutely disgusting... I truly enjoy finance and I understand work is important but this shit has to end immediately. Work is never THAT serous.

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Jul 30, 2018

.

Jul 30, 2018

.

WSO's COO (Chief Operating Orangutan) | My Linkedin

Jul 30, 2018

i find it disturbing that the spokeswoman in the efinancialcareers article offered NO words of sympathy regarding the death... no acknowledgment of how tragic this is -- only deflecting blame. really really awful. hope to see them change their tune here... this was a human life... not some deal gone bad.

especially weird given all the stuff on glassdoor about their culture.

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Jul 30, 2018
:

A spokeswoman for Lincoln International confirmed that a junior banker at the firm passed away, but said it was not the result of "working all night shifts," and that Lincoln International has "standards and systems in place" to prevent these from occurring. "The health and well-being of our professionals is our highest priority," she added.

Wow, you're right. That was cold.

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Jul 30, 2018
I'm actually a squirrel:
:

A spokeswoman for Lincoln International confirmed that a junior banker at the firm passed away, but said it was not the result of "working all night shifts," and that Lincoln International has "standards and systems in place" to prevent these from occurring. "The health and well-being of our professionals is our highest priority," she added.

Wow, you're right. That was cold.

It's possible (though not likely IMO) that they did offer words of sympathy, but they weren't included in the article. But if you're right, then I agree.

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Jul 30, 2018

Comment from the linked article above: "His name was Shivam Chokshi, and he worked several nights in a row until 4:30am or so before passing away. It is absolutely horrible that the bank has somehow decided that his working hours were not to blame -- they were very likely a contributing factor at the least. The bank's response here is a completely disgraceful, insensitive and disgusting blow to Shivam's family and friends, as well as to their other junior employees."

Crazy if true

Jul 30, 2018

You would think whoever was looking over him would know better than to let someone work that long continuously... bad management.

Jul 30, 2018

MM M&A firms trying to compete with B/S banks mixed with a non-target summer analyst fighting for a full-time spot lead to this I think. Wouldn't be surprised if we see some regulation come up due to this.

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Jul 30, 2018

So crazy to think how regulated the industry is but no real regulation on the wellbeing of the industry's employees...

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Jul 30, 2018

Most of the time firms have policies in place that juniors shouldn't be on the desk after a certain time or work over a certain amount of hours per week but it is rarely enforced thanks to hard-ass senior bankers that want to work their juniors like slaves because they know how badly those kids want a return offer. Places like Lincoln, Moelis, Evercore, etc. are notorious for this shit.

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Aug 5, 2018

Don't toss Evercore and Moelis in if you don't know about those firms and don't work there. I work at one of those two, and we don't grind kids unless we absolutely have to.

Nobody has died working for us, and all of us (from MDs all the way down to interns) work hard but focus on ourselves and our health as well. We're okay with interns going to the gym around dinner if they're going to have a late night, and we try our best to get people back with some easier staffings if they've been getting crushed.

Sure, capacity means people are often pulling hard hours, but in no world would we let a kid who was having seizures at his desk work until 4:30 every night nor let a kid develop a very serious health problem and not give enough of a shit to give him time off. I have a chronic illness and my seniors and staffer have been very accommodating. If you don't work with us, don't spew drivel about something you know nothing about.

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Aug 6, 2018

Yeah right. I have seen an associate at Moelis who was so tired that he couldn't open a bottle of water in front of me.

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Aug 6, 2018

I used to work for one of those two and I assure you they did what I said they do and still do. Nice job with the PR save on this anonymous forum though, I'm sure your MD will bump your bonus up for that.

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Aug 7, 2018
GreenspanAndHam:

I used to work for one of those two and I assure you they did what I said they do and still do. Nice job with the PR save on this anonymous forum though, I'm sure your MD will bump your bonus up for that.

Moelis and Evercore are just not comparable in terms of junior culture. You picked 2 EBs that could not be more different in that respect.

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Aug 15, 2018

Evercore isn't known for being a sweatshop. Moelis is. If you work at Evercore, it's important that you cleared that up. If you work for Moelis, go to hell for spreading misinformation like this. Moelis is a sweatshop that destroys its juniors. I have several analyst friends there who are getting grinded to the bone, who have been for the past year straight, with super shitty weeks, and less shitty but still shitty weeks.

For monkeys reading this, go to Evercore if you get an offer there; great culture, work/life is not bad (for banking) and top of the street pay. Don't go to Moelis unless you have no other BB or EB opps, and even then, rethink if that 's truly what you want because they will destroy you for 2 years.

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Jul 30, 2018

Because no regulation to the tune would be remotely followed. There is far too much at stake, look at the BB firms that have adopted hour limits. No one follows it, I have a friend at GS and he said despite the "free staurday or sunday" depending on the group is pretty much ever honored. Its purely PR.

Follow the shit your fellow monkeys say @shitWSOsays

Life is hard, it's even harder when you're stupid - John Wayne

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Jul 30, 2018

DePaul might be a target for Lincoln.

Array
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Jul 30, 2018

DePaul isn't even a target for those pyramid scheme sales orgs. I'd say why but I want to keep this thread as respectful as possible

Follow the shit your fellow monkeys say @shitWSOsays

Life is hard, it's even harder when you're stupid - John Wayne

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Jul 31, 2018

Fuck off. Not the thread for this at all.

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Jul 30, 2018

Such a shame. So sad that this happened, I bet he was a nice guy. I know a lot of us deal with long hours as just part of the job but this kind of stuff cant happen basically each year. Eventually cultures will need to change, even in finance.

As OP said, its up to todays analysts and associates (which i imagine many of us are) to break the cycle and change the culture down the road so stuff like this doesnt happen to anyone else.

Jul 30, 2018

Wow, really sad news all around. Whoever was the Staffer/VP or whatever on that deal needs to be canned IMMEDIATELY. These are kids at the end of the day and you need to look after them.

This isn't the wild west nor is it combat zone. When is the last time you heard an INTERN dying on the job in any other industry?

For current interns/analysts - it is OK to say no when it is within reason. Working past 1 AM every night for a week? Don't ask, TELL them you need the weekend to catch up on sleep. No client is worth your health.

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Jul 30, 2018

Well that's all cute and all but the poor kid was probably trying to get a return offer with a non target over his head... how is he going to say no? Disgusting stuff. Some type of curfew law better come out of this.

I agree with you, the VP/Staffer head should be served on a platter and made an example of... He should be jailed for mental and physical harassment if it was known that the kid had seizures at his desk... wow poor kid this is awful.

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Jul 30, 2018

I've heard of some banks forbidding intern keycards from working on Saturday/Sunday, although you could still work from home.

Jul 30, 2018
Macronmania:

Well that's all cute and all but the poor kid was probably trying to get a return offer with a non target over his head... how is he going to say no? Disgusting stuff. Some type of curfew law better come out of this.

I agree with you, the VP/Staffer head should be served on a platter and made an example of... He should be jailed for mental and physical harassment if it was known that the kid had seizures at his desk... wow poor kid this is awful.

I don't disagree but that's the mentality we're trying to "change" right? Giving up the right to live for a banking job? Give me a break. Even in hell week in SEAL training they give you the weekend off because you need to heal.

Said differently, if analyst finds an error in a pitchbook before print, do you correct the mistake or let it go? It's the same concept, except the "mistake" is a human life and you need to stop the mistake (in this case, a life...)

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Jul 30, 2018

Totally agree with you @Whiskey5 but you can't blame kids in their 20s trying to make some money... leadership has to come from the top as always. I don't know how the MD/Director/VP at Lincoln can look at himself/herself in the mirror tonight.

Jul 30, 2018

I wouldn't blame those guys until you have more facts. This easily could have been pre-existing condition or unknown problem that just metabolized fast and the kid didn't do anything to fix

Array
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Jul 30, 2018

According to my source, no pre-existing conditions.

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Jul 30, 2018

He wasn't blaming the kid, clearly said the boss needs to be canned.

Follow the shit your fellow monkeys say @shitWSOsays

Life is hard, it's even harder when you're stupid - John Wayne

Aug 3, 2018

Agree with you there. Am pretty familiar with BUD/S (SEAL intro training). They constantly check in on your health to ensure you don't die. And they're preparing guys to go into literally the worst situations humans can endure. Investment banking shouldn't have to be compared to combat training.

Jul 30, 2018

I'd imagine he'll immediately resign due to the enormous guilt he's feeling right now, but if not, yes, fired immediately.

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Jul 30, 2018

Incredibly, it looks like another 21/22 year-old died at the same office a few years ago. On July 4th, 2014 -- sourcing the earlier comment:

https://ithacavoice.com/2014/07/recent-cornell-gra...

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Jul 30, 2018

"The cause of his death is undetermined and under investigation, the Cook County Medical Examiner said in a brief interview Friday."

^^ That was in the Cornell article... wonder what ended up being determined.

Edit: This is referring to the 2014 death

Aug 1, 2018

I worked at Lincoln at that time. Cause of death was due to an overdose (happened away from office).

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Jul 30, 2018

@Whiskey5 This reminds me of the thread about longest hours worked in a week. There is no reason why in gods name anyone needs to work multiple days past 1AM. Sanity and health are worth far more than a client is, any day of the week. The more people run on nothing, the harder it is to justify wanting to come in and be productive.

Jul 30, 2018

This story just makes me sad because I can 100% relate. I went to a non-target and had to hustle my ass off to get the return offer but this does not equate to giving up the right to live for a job offer. Life has much more to offer than 2+2 -> HBS...

The saddest part of this story (if i'm a betting man), is that the deadline was probably driven by the MD/D/VP, not even the client. Lincoln is actually coming to pitch me for an exit, I really fucking hope this intern didn't work on my deal.

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Jul 30, 2018

Plenty of people commonly work past 1 AM.

10-1 AM is pretty standard M-Th for some groups.

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Jul 30, 2018

... and its very rarely needed.

It's typically an over-eager (barely competent) VP / Director that causes these hours

Jul 30, 2018

This is not accurate. @high hopes

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Jul 30, 2018

Notice... you said 10 AM to 2 AM. That's 18 hours. So if I work from 8AM to Midnight, that's still the same 18 hours. Just keep that in mind when you say that it's common.

Jul 30, 2018
Frieds:

Notice... you said 10 AM to 2 AM. That's 18 hours. So if I work from 8AM to Midnight, that's still the same 18 hours. Just keep that in mind when you say that it's common.

Math is wrong
Pls fix
Thx

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Jul 30, 2018

Show some respect.

Jul 30, 2018

That's a pretty late start time.

8:30am - 3am is common at my shop.

Jul 30, 2018

Thanks for backing me up that it's common at some groups.

Yeah the 10 AM is a bit late, but geez dude 8:30 butt in seat is rough if you're getting home at 3.

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Jul 30, 2018

Group this summer is 9:30/10 until whenever. Herd thins out at around 10/11pm. People generally stop responding past midnight/1 if they're at home.

Jul 30, 2018

My group is 8:30 to 10:30 on most nights. We try to corral people out by 6 or 6:30 on Fridays.

Aug 2, 2018

My group this summer was pretty variable. 9:30-12AM was minimum, 9:30-3AM was common and when it was crunch time to finalize CIP and model of our two biggest deals we were doing 9:30-4AM++ for like two weeks straight. Then it chilled out

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Aug 1, 2018

Delete

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Aug 1, 2018

Wrong industry for you then

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Aug 1, 2018

Delete

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Aug 1, 2018

Cool man, you lead off coffee chats with that one?

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Aug 2, 2018

.

Aug 3, 2018

did you mean to reply this towards me?

If so, take a lap junior. you have 3 years of experience and are on here posting (16 pages of comments total) about your country club membership + that 85k base and 10% bonus is a huge jump in comp for you.

You clearly don't work in IB and are keyboard warrior out here actin' a fool.

if not, disregard the above and learn to reply properly.

Aug 6, 2018

Nothing to say to you, I think anyone would enjoy 10% bumps in comp :)

Jul 30, 2018

It's not the hours but the responsibility of the analyst/associate to make sure that those directly under their command are in good shape. I always tell them to make sure they eat a healthy diet, rest instead of partying, and workout. The stronger your body the more able you are to endure the long hours.

What concert costs 45 cents? 50 Cent feat. Nickelback.

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Jul 30, 2018

They aren't your troops, they didn't sign up for the military.

There's no need for 4-5 AM nights for interns. They simply don't have the value to make that ever worthwhile. They shouldn't have to rest instead of partying (maybe on weekdays, I agree), and you need time to unwind.

You risk losing them to other banks or having a headline like this one.

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Jul 30, 2018

Eh I'm an analyst and don't decide their hours but yes i'd rather they left earlier! If you're going to criticize me for asking my interns to take care of themselves then you're an idiot.

But evidenced by your thread on burning out (see below) you made the wrong decisions "to unwind" and need to step away from the industry as a whole to recover.

https://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/burnout-lif...

What concert costs 45 cents? 50 Cent feat. Nickelback.

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Jul 30, 2018

I get what you're trying to say man but just because people do things like Hell Week on 4 hours of sleep doesn't mean they should. Children in Africa that are child soldiers don't have a choice.

As bankers we have the power to stop shit like this. Maybe not senior banker big swinging dick power but we can help the interns out and tell others when they're over staffed. We can be better than this.

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Jul 30, 2018
Jamie_Diamond:

Eh I'm an analyst and don't decide their hours but yes i'd rather they left earlier! If you're going to criticize me for asking my interns to take care of themselves then you're an idiot.

But evidenced by your thread on burning out (see below) you made the wrong decisions "to unwind" and need to step away from the industry as a whole to recover.

https://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/burnout-lif...

I think both of us can do a better job of being good to each other. That thread got mostly praise and even got front-paged and mentioned in the podcast. I'm in PE (haven't left yet) and still kicking.

I read your comment as if you were a director/MD, which in retrospect wasn't the smartest way of reading it.

I stand by my comment that interns shouldn't be pulling 4-5AM nights. The senior team may share in the blame, but even staffing at junior levels is a mess if that's the case. Can't you help push back? Obviously, if for some reasons intern HAVE to be there at that time, it's best for all involved if they take care of themselves.

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Jul 30, 2018

I've got interns too man. There's no reason they should consistently work past midnight. None. Its not worth something like this happening. I like the pay your dues hierarchical structure that Banking offers, however there is something severely wrong if people think working a 20/21 year old past 2am every night without end is even remotely acceptable.

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Jul 30, 2018

[deleted]

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Aug 3, 2018

Your arguments are only partially relevant to this guy's death.

As a former pro natural bodybuilder and now an engagement Manager, I know the merits of maintaining a healthy body to working and burning burning the midnight oil.

If someone has an unknown genetic disease/ deep rooted/ manifested lifestyle issue not yet discovered then they will emerge when triggered or onset by extenuating circumstances such as this.

Jul 30, 2018

This is not confined to the banking community but rather to specific work environments. There was a story about 10 years ago, completely documented and true, that a proof-reader at one of the large publication houses in NYC died while sitting at his desk, in his typical posture, hunched over a stack of edits.

Don't recall all of the specifics, but suffice it to say the guy was there nearly a week before anyone actually realized he was doing more than his typical 90-hour work weeks

Aug 1, 2018
Aug 4, 2018

Not that it matters, but this story ran in a local newspaper down in the Carolinas so the paper was misinformed as well. After I started thinking about it, this story was more like 20 years ago but I make no assertions as to the veracity of the article.

My primary point was that over-extending oneself for their job is not restricted to banking by a longshot. As a former engineer/project manager who worked startups and outages on power plants, there were hundreds of men on these jobsites who would go from one outage to another around the country, work 6 - 9 months/year and take the rest of the time off. These outages are run around the clock, 24/7 until the outage is over.

I personally have put in 100+ hour work-weeks during outages for 6 - 9 weeks in a row, but these were jobs where I was responsible for the success/failure of the outage for one plant. Incredibly stressful, horrible on the body and mind, but quite nice financially. What I found amazing were the men who owned fifth-wheels, went from one outage to the next, and work 7 days/week until the job was over.

Jul 30, 2018

Article published today by Business Insider about rising hospital admittance of young bankers in UK. "Young bankers in their 20's and 30's are being admitted to the hospital more frequently with heart conditions and heart attacks, cardiologists in the UK told Business Insider." WSO won't let me post link but just Google it and it's there.

Link: https://www.businessinsider.com/bankers-20s-and-30...

Jul 30, 2018

This is really sad but it portrays the reality. Working hours are treated as honor badges and some people in the WSO WhatsApp group have admitted that they work until 3 am regularly. It makes me even sadder that this is my dream... there must be something really wrong with us as a society if 250k people apply for 1000 of these positions. What saddens me even more is that nothing will change and this has been going on for the past 30+ years.

CURRENT INTERNS:
The only thing I want to add that besides taking care of your physical health (eating food and staying hydrated) please talk to your closest people if it is difficult for you. It is extremely difficult and there's no shame in admitting it to your family/friends. Don't hold it in yourself.

Edit: I may have went over the line by checking his facebook but I did. 37 weeks ago a girl commented "wall street ready" and it broke my heart.. 2nd heartbreak comes from his mother's comment in which she says "miss you"... he probably went away from his family and just wanted to make them happy and proud. no mother deserves this...

"We cross our bridges when we come to them and burn them behind us, with nothing to show for our progress except a memory of the smell of smoke, and a presumption that once our eyes watered."

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Jul 31, 2018

I shouldn't have but I also did the same. And then I called my mother immediately after that...

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Jul 31, 2018

I called my dad after I read about this too. Just wanted him to know this can happen and to not let me get to that point

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Most Helpful
Jul 30, 2018

I am very saddened by this news and I send my deepest condolences to Shivam's family.

I am also pissed off and wondering what can be done to stop this (or at the very least make it much more rare)?

The WSO Community has a big voice in this industry and I see it as a voice for junior bankers and these exact students/interns that are pushing themselves to such extremes. I feel horrible that it's been 12+ yrs since we started WSO and the same shit keeps happening.

I don't know the specifics of this exact case but it seems irresponsible to assume it is not at least somewhat related to the working conditions (even if there was an underlying health issue). So how do we change the culture? Most BBs have instituted certain policies that make it harder for abuse on the interns/analysts, but what about the MM and boutiques?

Where can people easily find these policies? Are they publicly posted and compiled anywhere? How do we know if the banks are actually following them? I think WSO could help bring some of this change and put pressure on the industry to treat their junior bankers better.

What if we were to try and create a general industry policy that helped protect the most vulnerable to overwork/abuse at the bank and have the banks sign it? and then as part of WSO Company Database would rank the banks on how well they adhere to the policy?

I'm sick of these horrible headlines - let's change it together. Who's in?

Collecting thoughts here: https://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/policy-to-h...
-Patrick

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Jul 30, 2018

We should have this conversation but shouldn't it be a new thread?

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Jul 30, 2018
Jul 30, 2018

I don't know how you'd do this, but perhaps adding something on the ethics portion of the IBP curriculum?

Jul 30, 2018

You know, there are a decent number of industries that work people at 4AM, etc. All of them that I know of outside of banking utilize rotations and/or on-call schedules. And sure, employees get abused under those systems too, but from my perspective, this is a largely solved problem that banking refuses to acknowledge because that would require considering that maybe banks haze their employees and/or run leaner than is reasonable

I'll be the first one to say that I'm just a student that knows nothing, but this seems a lot like "we tried nothing and we're all out of ideas" to me. And how does an intern even have the responsibility to be working enough hours to be worked to death anyway? What did they just haze the guy because the intern isn't going to say no? If this was work related, it's utterly despicable on the bank's part.

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Jul 31, 2018

The sad part is.. you are right. Doesn't matter how much of a superstar intern you are, truth is you are an intern and whatever keeping you at the office at 4am isn't due to that your work is absolutely instrumental to the team. Some of it might just be that your other teammates (who are more experienced and taking on more real responsibilities and therefore actually staying out of necessity) are still in the office, so as an intern you feel compelled to stick around. It might be that you are assigned to do something and it just takes you more time to figure out how to do it with minimum guidance. I've never ever seen an intern bearing the weight of an actual transaction, because that would be an extremely irresponsible and frankly unhelpful thing for the deal team to do.

I fully blame his team and senior folks for this. He probably was in the office thinking that's the right thing to do, because that's what interns are all trained to think. It's the associate, VP or MDs job to guide and take care of a kid who's like 8 weeks into this job.

Jul 31, 2018

this shit's not going to stop until we collectively tell our associates/vps/directors to fuck off and do the work themselves if it so important that it gets done immediately...i say this as i am working on a model that will likely take me all night

Jul 30, 2018

Impending legal issues seem almost definite...though that will never bring back this hardworking individual. Can't imagine if this was a co-worker. A moral travesty...work should NEVER cause a death!

My soul is highly leveraged

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Jul 30, 2018

Wow.

Jul 30, 2018

Can someone please do some sort of study on the diminishing returns of working each additional hour past some arbitrary threshold such as 80 hours?

Maybe quantifying this inefficiency will resonate with senior bankers as human life clearly doesn't.

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Jul 30, 2018

You could argue that they diminish to the point of being negative. Can't count the number of times I've looked at work I did at 3 am the night before and wondered what I possibly could have been thinking. (Then in 15 minutes I fixed or redid from scratch 2 hours "work" from the night before).

Jul 31, 2018

THIS.

Jul 31, 2018

They actually already have. Pencavel (
2014
https://poseidon01.ssrn.com/delivery.php?ID=450091... ):

"Observations on munition workers, most of them women, are organized to examine the
relationship between their output and their working hours. The relationship is nonlinear:
below an hours threshold, output is proportional to hours; above a threshold, output rises at a
decreasing rate as hours increase. Implications of these results for the estimation of labor
supply functions are taken up. The findings also link up with current research on the effects of
long working hours on accidents and injuries."

I guess that is quite clear, and backs up the intuition. Sadly most people will not take things like this into account, until it is researched exactly in the applicable conditions.

Besides: This is tragic. It is a result of a dysfunctional old-school way of doing things. Sadly, most sectors do not move towards fewer hours, but towards more. I do not think I have seen a single job-ad on my university's career platform that did not include the line "No nine to five mentality". Seems we are a long way to go.

Jul 30, 2018

I think people need to do some probability analysis on this. Between interns and other juniors there are likely 20-30k people. You hear a story like this once every three years. A 1-50k probability. I'd be curious what percent of average 23 year olds have a sudden death.

Sorry he died. But I'm not sure "banking killed him" is correct.

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Jul 31, 2018

wow this is a very callous post

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Jul 31, 2018

That's a human life you are talking about. Not an statistic. He was someone's child and brother and friend and cousin. He was a human being with friends and family just like you. Show some respect even if you can't find any heart in you to show.

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Jul 31, 2018

I'm trying to push back on the investment banking killed him meme in this thread. There's no evidence of that. People want to call the senior managers at Lincoln murderers and the like....put them in jail. I'm pushing against judgements without facts.

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Jul 31, 2018

You just reduced and equated whatever happened to this young man to a probability. Please don't do that.

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Jul 31, 2018

I did no such thing.
I just pushed back on the proximate cause "evil managing director worked him to death" narrative.

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Aug 2, 2018

I support you.
Although you should have been much more cautious in the choice of words to avoid misunderstanding.

Aug 15, 2018

All due respect, but you're being overly touchy right now. The guy isn't being a dick, he's just looking at this statistically. Everything in life is a goddamn statistic. Average life expectancy in the US? Statistic. Average number of deaths from cancer a year? Statistic.

All of these are incredibly sad and each death is felt from an individual level. But everything is still quantified by organizations, governments, etc. That's doesn't mean they think human life is worthless, just framing it to better understand how it fits within the bigger picture.

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Jul 30, 2018

Hi everyone. I'm a reporter with the Chicago Tribune. I am trying to learn more about what happened to this young man. If you have any concrete information, or if you know anyone who worked with Shivam at Lincoln or who knew him personally, please contact me: aelejalderuiz (at) chicagotribune (dot) com, 312-222-4986. Thank you very much.

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Jul 31, 2018

This is sad. I had a friend leave after 1 year at Citigroup after pulling in massive hours and did not want to deal with another year.

The system needs to change where people (anyone) is not pulling massive hours into the morning working constantly. The body can only take so much abuse before it decides to clock out.

I know a few nurses who pulled 16 hour days (my ex included), it took a lot of convincing for me to have her leave that job and get into a better work hours role.

As always, your health and well-being comes first, we only get one shot at life.

No pain no game.

Jul 31, 2018

sounds like bullshit. "Bro i swear, the kid was super chill and healthy. Worked out everyday too bro"

like, what?

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Jul 31, 2018

Anyone have the link to his service? I'd like to view it

Jul 31, 2018

Stress from the work itself combined with the fight for a FT spot can be gruesome. Maybe he has some pre-existing health issues.

Jul 31, 2018

Has to be said, as someone that has aspired to get into banking, I have no idea why anyone actually wants to join this industry sometimes.

Jul 31, 2018

My deterrent is all the people puffing out their chests about the hours, humble bragging over a guy's grave. At least use a different thread.

RIP buddy, peace and comfort to your family and loved ones.

Jul 31, 2018

@Trippy Taco Can you confirm this?

Jul 31, 2018

Spoke to two people who were in the office when it happened, and they said the kid was extremely healthy (ate well and worked out every day). They said it happened around 8:30-9:00pm and that he wasn't getting crushed, that it was just a freak thing

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Jul 31, 2018

Sounds like something I'd say if I had slammed the kid with work the past week.

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Jul 31, 2018

Interesting, hope they are telling the truth and not trying to hide anything.

Jul 31, 2018

Don't let this thread fade! We want this to reach headline news. The negative PR will pressure the banks and therefore, they will be more accepting to change.

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Aug 1, 2018

Hopefully people get in touch with the Chicago Tribune reporter above ^^^

Aug 1, 2018

It sucks to say this but anybody from Lincoln that talks to that reporter (or any reporter) would be snuffed out and blacklisted from the firm and probably most firms that the MD/D has connections to. That's just the nature of the business. "From the outside you can't understand it and from the inside you can't explain it."

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Aug 1, 2018

Thats actually so true.. Didnt even think about that

Aug 1, 2018

Anonymous reporting exists...

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Aug 2, 2018

its crazy to me that this is essentially non news now.

Aug 3, 2018

Same. No media has picked this up (except for 1 German site). Crazy

Aug 5, 2018

It's because Lincoln is an unknown non-NY MM bank. Before this, I hadn't even heard of it, and so you bet that the general IB-hating, socialist public hasn't heard of it. If it was GS or BAML or JPM or another big, high profile and publically listed bank, you bet it would be front page because it would sell and people would circle jerk about what assholes we all are.

Aug 3, 2018

I wonder if it isn't just the hours but the mind fuck culture of some VPs and above, just to make themselves feel better about their own lame lives. Maybe other groups are different but at my shop they will laugh at kids' immaturity and ambitions and yell at them when the numbers don't be come how out they want them too. I'd love to work long hours with nice people. It's the working long hours for assholes that really sucks.

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Aug 3, 2018

Why don't we just form a union?

Aug 5, 2018

Because it takes 1 year to form a union at least, and by the time you start having health problems, you are already halfway through.

Aug 3, 2018

I heard a story once of a HL analyst (I believe M&A out of MPLS office) having a few all nighters around the time of HL's IPO. I believe it was two in a row then he had a seizure and woke up in the hospital.

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