Wells Fargo Employee emails CEO asking for a $10,000 raise

upod01's picture
Rank: Gorilla | 725

A Wells Fargo employee sent an email to the CEO, John Stumpf, he also CC'd 200,000 other Wells Fargo employees on the email asking for a 10,000 raise for every employee. In the letter, he brought up the issue of income inequality. He pointed out that Stumpf took home $19 million in compensation for 2013.

Here's the letter:

Mr. Stumpf,

With the increasing focus on income inequality in the United States. Wells Fargo has an opportunity to be at the forefront of helping to reduce this by setting the bar, leading by example, and showing the other large corporations that it is very possible to maintain a profitable company that not only looks out for its consumers and shareholders, but its employees as well.

Continued inside the post...

This year Wells Fargo in its second quarter alone had a net income of $5.7 billion, and total revenue of $21.1 billion. These are very impressive numbers, and is obvious evidence that Wells Fargo is one of, if not the most profitable company in the nation right now. So, why not take some of this and distribute it to the rest of the employees.

Sure, the company provides while not great, some pretty good benefits, as well as discretionary profit sharing for those who partake in our 401k program. While the benefits are nice, the profit sharing through the 401k only goes to make the company itself and its shareholders more profitable, and not really boost the income of the thousands of us here every day making this company the prestigious power house that it is.

Last year, you had pulled in over $19 million, more than most of the employees will see in our lifetimes. It is understood that your position carries a lot of weight and responsibility; however, with a base salary of $2.8 million and bonuses equating to $4 million, is alone one of the main arguments of income inequality. Where the vast majority, the undeniable profit drivers, with the exception of upper management positions barely make enough to live comfortably on their own, the distribution of income in this company is no better than that of the other big players in the corporate world.

My estimate is that Wells Fargo has roughly around 300,000 employees. My proposal is take $3 billion dollars, just a small fraction of what Wells Fargo pulls in annually, and raise every employees annual salary by $10,000 dollars. This equates to an hourly raise about $4.71 per hour. Think, as well, of the positive publicity in a time of extreme consumer skepticism towards banks. By doing this, Wells Fargo will not only help to make its people, its family, more happy, productive, and financially stable, it will also show the rest of the United States, if not the world that, yes big corporations can have a heart other than philanthropic endeavors.

P.S. - To all of my fellow team members who receive a copy of this email. Though Wells Fargo does not allow the formation of unions, this does not mean we cannot stand united. Each and every one of us plays an integral part in the success of this company. It is time that we ask, no, it is time that we demand to be rightfully compensated for the hard work that we accomplish, and for the great part we all have played in the success of this company. There are many of us out there who come to work every day and give it our all, yet, we struggle to make ends meet while our peers in upper management and company executives reap the majority of the rewards. One of our lowest scored TMCS questions is that our opinions matter. Well they do! This email has been sent to hundreds of thousands Wells Fargo employees, (as many as I could cc from the outlook global address book). And while the voice of one person in a world as large as ours may seem only like a whisper, the combined voices of each and all of us can move mountains!

With the warmest of regards,

You can see the full article here: http://www.businessinsider.com/tyrel-oates-letter-to-wells-fargo-ceo-2014-10

Comments (149)

Best Response
Oct 10, 2014

Former Wells Fargo Employee*

    • 13
Oct 10, 2014

That's an interesting way to resign.

    • 4
Oct 10, 2014

sounds like communism to me. you're essentially saying "look, you have all this money, why not share it, besides, it's good PR!"

I bet this guy would feel differently if he worked at WellsCap in SanFran instead of loan collections in Oregon, just sayin.

it brings up a good issue that's certainly worth discussing, it's certainly a part of any society that citizens should be able to maintain their standard of living assuming they don't fuck anything up. yes wage growth has been slow at best (nonexistent more likely) for years amid decent inflation (aside: CPI is bullshit, daily goods have risen faster and because homeownership is down apt rent rates are rising much faster than inflation depending on your locale), but I guess I'm of the opinion that beyond a COLA, raises should be meritocratic, not profit sharing just because you're an employee of a good business.

if this guy makes $15 an hour he's pulling in a little more than $30k a year. the audacity he has to ask for a 32% raise simply because his company is profitable is appalling. he does not generate revenue for the firm, he works in a call center that helps people stop debt collection calls (source: Washington Post). I realize you can receive good reviews from your surveys, but he has to realize that he is a consumer of the net income of WFC, not a contributor. therefore, your wages will be depressed not just in banking, but everywhere so long as you are in a consumer rather than a contributor role.

think of just about any industry (except science stuff like drug discovery & inventors), the rainmakers are the ones bringing home the bacon. hence the wide gap in income between managing principals and associate attorneys, MDs and analysts in IB, medical device salespeople and the QA controllers in the plants making the drugs, bizdev engineers versus lab engineers, the list goes on. clearly he needs a better understanding of how a business works and how profits are generated.

his idea is important (income inequality, people struggling to maintain their standard of living), but his rationale is completely off base. of course, if you believe in a more socialist society then you would completely disagree, but hey, what's the point of free speech if it can't generate a debate?

    • 6
Oct 15, 2014

Only if the CEO's pay is meritocratic, meaning if he made $19m in a year, he makes about $52,055 a day. That's ~$10,000 more than what an average American makes in a year. Is or is he not so productive that he creates in a day, more than what most Americans create in a year?

Is he so productive that his doing the work of generations such that his children and grandchild will never have to work in their lives?

Whether or not you agree, you can't claim that its communistic for a guy to ask for a raise for himself and his colleagues if he feels that the profit of the company is being distributed in a way that unfairly gives executives a greater share. Only if you can backup that the CEO was worth $19m is this WF employee out of line.

I will say this, as a former analyst at a compensation consultant for banks, executives have WAY more leverage and tools to negotiate their comp vs. more junior staff. It is also very easy for them to claim too much credit for growth that might be attributed to the market, his team, or under performing peers.

Most employees just take home what they get while I've seen executives call board meetings and throw a hissy fit because he got paid $15m and his buddy across the street made $16m. I don't see anything wrong with this guy trying to negotiate his pay, executives do it all the time.

    • 4
Oct 15, 2014

1. if you knew anything about estate taxes and how trust fund babies spend, you'd know that no amount of money can last forever, so your point about generations is just straight up false. see the book investing strategies for the high net worth investor, great research on this topic plus anecdotal experience I've gained managing family wealth. this just doesn't happen unless you're a DuPont (well even they're not where they were), Rockefeller, Rothschild, Walton, etc.

2. communism is the equitable distribution of money without regard to contribution, so yes, I do claim it's communist. granted, I'm not a polisci major so my definition could use some work, but he's asking for more money without having contributed anything additional, that sounds like communism.

not going to argue the income inequality piece, you and I just come from different schools of thought.

    • 1
Oct 15, 2014

I would say the young man has a huge case of entitlement. He is basing his entire argument on income inequality and spreading the money around. At no point does he claim is worth $10,000 more, just he and his co-workers are entitled to more since there is a large net profit. He wants more compensation for the same value he is providing now without regard to his contribution not increasing in value, it is just "fair" in his view. It is falling along the lines of communistic.

The goal of a company isn't to pay out net profits to the employees in a way they see fit. It is to create value for shareholders through growth and prudent management. Some of the net profit is being reinvested in growing the company. The complaining party works at a call center and deals with the cease and desist orders for debt collection. This is an important function since a violation of the bankruptcy automatic stay creates big legal problems, but he is not important, the job is. I would bet I can leave my office right now and find people walking the streets in their pajamas that can do what he does with minimal training. He is easily replaceable.

Wells Fargo is one of the best run banks in country. My job isn't to figure out what the CEO should be paid, it is the Board of Directors. If shareholders don't like it, they can vote the board out. He probably holds some shares and should voice his opinion at the annual meeting.

Oct 15, 2014
thebrofessor:

sounds like communism to me. you're essentially saying "look, you have all this money, why not share it, besides, it's good PR!"

his idea is important (income inequality, people struggling to maintain their standard of living), but his rationale is completely off base. of course, if you believe in a more socialist society then you would completely disagree, but hey, what's the point of free speech if it can't generate a debate?

Spot on.

Oct 10, 2014

This dude is probably hilarious in the office

Oct 10, 2014
upod01:

the thousands of us here every day making this company the prestigious power house that it is.

LOL.

Follow the shit your fellow monkeys say @shitWSOsays

Life is hard, it's even harder when you're stupid - John Wayne

    • 1
    • 1
Oct 10, 2014

"I'm going to need you to get a box... and put your shit in it"

Oct 10, 2014

Because he's being promoted to Co-CEO and gets a new office? No...?

Oct 10, 2014

The best way to get someone's attention via email is to title the subject line: "Goodbye" or "Farewell", you know you'd drop everything you were doing to read the email. This may be the new approach to getting a raise, spam the entire company and waste a few million dollars of company time.

Oct 15, 2014

Where's this reference from mate?

Oct 15, 2014

Mad Men, Don Draper was trying to fire Pete Campbell after he pitched his own "copy" to the client, and when confronted about it Pete dismissed the criticism in support of doing the same again... Boom enter "line."

Oct 10, 2014

Dude has an MBA and is making $15 / hour at a retail branch. Fucking idiot. The CEO of WF is responsible for $1 trillion and making billion dollar decisions, while this jerk off opens a couple checking accounts a day.

Typical lib not realizing his compensation is directly related to the value he provides as an employee and the market rate.

My aunt, an ops manager at a regional bank (and hardcore lib), said the same shit to our family a few years ago during Christmas dinner. She didn't understand why the CEO made $3mm at her bank and she only brought home $60k - she thought it was incredibly unfair. After listening to her bitch and moan for a few minutes, we asked her why she still works there if she thought she could make more somewhere else. She froze - because she can't, mainly because she can't provide any value worth paying more than $60k for.

    • 8
    • 1
Oct 15, 2014

From what I have read he does not have an MBA. In an interview he said he plans on getting a computer science degree and opening an IT company. I can't find anything that says he has an MBA or any degree. An article mentions the CEO's MBA though.

Oct 15, 2014

Where can I sign up to be the first investor? This guy is clearly the next big tech entrepreneur

Oct 15, 2014

He seems to lack the basic understanding that a CS degree has little to nothing to do with actual IT work. I will hold my breath for the success of this guys new company, seems like my lungs will outlast his company.

Follow the shit your fellow monkeys say @shitWSOsays

Life is hard, it's even harder when you're stupid - John Wayne

Oct 15, 2014

The bank teller doesn't have an MBA. The article said John Strumpf does.

But overall, yes I agree with your sentiment.

Oct 10, 2014

    • 6
Oct 19, 2014
FeedMeDealFlow:

Agreed, I'm curious how this plays out. Facts are, we're in a period of history not unlike the later stages of the Guilded Age where, right or wrong, unions and labor bargaining are coming back into vogue. Personally, I can't understand how a guy with his credentials is making not much more than a full time bartender at a decent gig (after tax to cash income comparison) so that's definitely strange, but it will be interesting to see what happens...

Oct 10, 2014

Lol male bank teller.

Oct 10, 2014
TNA:

Lol male bank teller.

Haha, nearly as many gays as flight attendants.

    • 2
Oct 10, 2014

Also, how about the balls on this clown. Making double the minimum wage and working a cushy office job. How about the poor suckered working at McDonald's.

Oct 10, 2014

Looks like Occupy Wall Street decided to try the "infiltrating from within" strategy.

    • 3
Oct 10, 2014
Oct 15, 2014

A guy who oversees a bank with $1+ trillion in assets and 300,000 employees is probably underpaid at $19 million.

I'm not sure if it's just that the internet makes these people more readily observable, but I'm witnessing a disturbing trend of entitlement in our society. A company that employs 300,000 white collar workers is vilified. It's truly and utterly insane.

Oct 15, 2014
DCDepository:

A guy who oversees a bank with $1+ trillion in assets and 300,000 employees is probably underpaid at $19 million.

I'm not sure if it's just that the internet makes these people more readily observable, but I'm witnessing a disturbing trend of entitlement in our society. A company that employs 300,000 white collar workers is vilified. It's truly and utterly insane.

But he processes loan terminations and saves the company thousands of dollars in regulatory fees, so clearly he's underpaid. Kills me.

    • 1
Oct 15, 2014

I agree that the trend of entitlement is disturbing. Rather than work hard and work your way into better paying positions, these people believe they should be given more money rather than struggle. I am sure that although he makes $15 an hour he has a cell phone, cable, laptop, and goes out to eat. For some reason these items have become basic rights and not discretionary items.

I have not been to Portland, Oregon, but I am guessing he can survive while working his way up on $15 an hour. He doesn't deserve more money for doing his job unless he earns it. He, and most of his like-minded friends, need to learn delayed gratification and living within their means.

He is the same person that would probably lose his mind if a McDonald's worker was making as much as he is.

    • 1
Oct 15, 2014

lol who's the one that's entitled? The guy getting paid $19m that's really just pieces of paper that for some reason entitles him to claim for himself an absurd share of the planet's resources not only for himself but for his family for generations after he's dead?

Is private property itself not entitlement? We're a bunch of monkeys on a floating rock in space, so how is it not entitlement for this monkey to claim that a huge slice of the Earth's resources are for him and 19 million pieces of paper to show for it?

$19m is about market pay for a CEO of a bank like Wells Fargo. Not pre-2008 levels but it'll never go back to that. You can argue all day about whether or not this is fair, both sides has good points, all I'm saying is it's not "entitlement" to argue the counter.

    • 2
    • 2
Oct 15, 2014

Yes, it IS entitlement to demand raises for 300,000 people without taking into account whether or not each individual earned the raise. I got a CPI bump + $5,000 increase on my base salary this year (before I left the bank for, well, much higher pay)--my boss noted my excellent work and work ethic. That's how you earn pay increases. You aren't entitled to a $10,000 pay increase because you exist. Based on my ethic, that type of entitlement mentality is immoral. It's also immoral to be concerned with the high pay of someone else--the only thing you should be concerned with is if you are being fairly compensated for your own work and for the value that you create. If someone else is paid more than his value to the company then so be it. But our society--amplified by the Occupy Wall Street movement--has popularized and lionized envy. It's a cancerous trend.

    • 3
Oct 15, 2014

i am extremely interested in what happens next

Oct 15, 2014

pleb

Oct 15, 2014

The guy's got moxy. This forum normally respects moxy. We respect people who ask in the hope that they will receive. We tell people to send thousands of emails trying to get FO jobs, to spam bankers and traders. Some of us are even nice enough to respond to these emails.

This guy's only problem is that he is a bank teller. If he were a white commercial banker, and he were asking only for himself, and he didn't put all of that social justice stuff into the letter, you guys would all of a sudden be liking this guy. And while I don't like his entitlement more than the next guy, I think there is clearly a double-standard here.

Do I agree with him? No.

Do I fault him for trying? No.

    • 1
Oct 15, 2014

It's completely apples to oranges comparison.

The guy is pressuring his employer to raise everyone's salary, regardless of merit. He's making arguments about social justice and income inequality, which have absolutely nothing to do with the request for higher pay (increasing his salary from $45,000 to $55,000 doesn't change the fact that the CEO makes $19 million and he makes $55,000).

If you want to go to your employer and ask for a pay increase because of x, y, and z then more power to you. To act like you're entitled to more money because you exist is shameful. And to drag your employer into a PR nightmare is a violation of your fiduciary duty.

Oct 15, 2014
DCDepository:

It's completely apples to oranges comparison.

The guy is pressuring his employer to raise everyone's salary, regardless of merit. He's making arguments about social justice and income inequality, which have absolutely nothing to do with the request for higher pay (increasing his salary from $45,000 to $55,000 doesn't change the fact that the CEO makes $19 million and he makes $55,000).

If you want to go to your employer and ask for a pay increase because of x, y, and z then more power to you. To act like you're entitled to more money because you exist is shameful. And to drag your employer into a PR nightmare is a violation of your fiduciary duty.

We're a country that has something called freedom of speech. He is free to CC 220,000 employees. And the firm is free to say no, sorry, we can't do that. You're free to disagree with what he did, but freedom of expression can hardly be called "pressure". If Wells Fargo spends millions on PACs to fight against consumer protections, what's the big deal with one email from a $15/hour teller?

Wells Fargo had a fiduciary duty to clients to minimize overdraft and returned check fees. Guess what? It was operating against that duty until the Feds stepped in with the CFPA, which Wells Fargo lobbied against. Libertarians like you will argue that consumers are free to switch banks. Great! You should also agree that the teller has a first amendment right to communicate with other employees. Wells Fargo may have the right to fire him, but what's good for the goose is good for the gander. If Wells Fargo is allowed to be bad fiduciaries with their clients money their employees should be allowed to lobby for higher pay without people yelling about fiduciary duty.

    • 1
Oct 15, 2014

Pre social media days: This guy would be fired on the spot.
Today: I'm curious to see what happens.

Oct 15, 2014

The outcome of this will be nothing.

Follow the shit your fellow monkeys say @shitWSOsays

Life is hard, it's even harder when you're stupid - John Wayne

Oct 15, 2014
heister:

The outcome of this will be nothing.

Of course. Also anyone saying this guy will get fired for this doesn't know NLRA prohibitions on employers firing people for trying to start a union or discussing workplace conditions. Pretty sure the email was protected speech.

Oct 15, 2014

I respect moxy, I don't respect idiocy. Sending an email to the entire firm dealing with compensation issues is just stupid. Furthermore, if the CEO is going to forego comp the extra money should go to the shareholders, not in arbitrarily jacking up comp for a bank teller that are being automated currently.

Oct 15, 2014
TNA:

I respect moxy, I don't respect idiocy. Sending an email to the entire firm dealing with compensation issues is just stupid. Furthermore, if the CEO is going to forego comp the extra money should go to the shareholders, not in arbitrarily jacking up comp for a bank teller that are being automated currently.

People want to speak with a live person when they go into a bank. If we automate the tellers, there's nothing really standing between Wells Fargo and Ally or Synchrony, which offers better rates and lower fees. I don't think Wells Fargo will automate too many tellers- the personal service is part of the reason people stay with traditional retail banks.

Oct 15, 2014
IlliniProgrammer:
TNA:

I respect moxy, I don't respect idiocy. Sending an email to the entire firm dealing with compensation issues is just stupid. Furthermore, if the CEO is going to forego comp the extra money should go to the shareholders, not in arbitrarily jacking up comp for a bank teller that are being automated currently.

People want to speak with a live person when they go into a bank. If we automate the tellers, there's nothing really standing between Wells Fargo and Ally or Synchrony, which offers better rates and lower fees. I don't think Wells Fargo will automate too many tellers- the personal service is part of the reason people stay with traditional retail banks.

HSBC has automated tellers and platform people. Wells Fargo has a touch pad and the teller just takes the check or gives out the cash. Tellers are front line sales people who refer you to platform. If they don't sell they are a liability.

Either way this guy was a shit teller and a moron professional.

Oct 15, 2014

Umm, wait a minute. We have freedom of speech in public and personal lives. When you're at work your rights and freedoms needs to conform to work standard. I'm free to black out and puke on my desk and I'm free to get fired with cause.

This kids a moron, provided a child like argument and should be terminated for just cause. Furthermore, good luck being hired. This immaturity should be weeded out after your first job as a paper boy. This clown is a liability at work.

Oct 15, 2014
TNA:

Umm, wait a minute. We have freedom of speech in public and personal lives. When you're at work your rights and freedoms needs to conform to work standard. I'm free to black out and puke on my desk and I'm free to get fired with cause.

This kids a moron, provided a child like argument and should be terminated for just cause. Furthermore, good luck being hired. This immaturity should be weeded out after your first job as a paper boy. This clown is a liability at work.

Nope. You can't be criminally penalized for expression at work (besides perhaps for trespassing before they throw you out of the building).

More applicably here, the NLRA provides that you can't get fired for discussing work conditions with other employees.

Oct 15, 2014
IlliniProgrammer:
TNA:

Umm, wait a minute. We have freedom of speech in public and personal lives. When you're at work your rights and freedoms needs to conform to work standard. I'm free to black out and puke on my desk and I'm free to get fired with cause.

This kids a moron, provided a child like argument and should be terminated for just cause. Furthermore, good luck being hired. This immaturity should be weeded out after your first job as a paper boy. This clown is a liability at work.

Nope. You can't be criminally penalized for expression at work (besides perhaps for trespassing before they throw you out of the building).

More applicably here, the NLRA provides that you can't get fired for discussing work conditions with other employees.

Firing an employee is not criminally penalizing...

Oct 15, 2014

OK, awesome. I'll put that in my back pocket. Glad to know I have something to fall back on when I act like a 13 year old and resort to the most unprofessional behavior.

Seriously man, being a contrarian is good sometimes, but if you can't see how unprofessional this is I don't know what to say.

Oct 15, 2014
TNA:

OK, awesome. I'll put that in my back pocket. Glad to know I have something to fall back on when I act like a 13 year old and resort to the most unprofessional behavior.

Seriously man, being a contrarian is good sometimes, but if you can't see how unprofessional this is I don't know what to say.

Of course it's unprofessional! Of course he's acting like a thirteen year old. He is a $15/hour hourly teller, not a professional banker. This is what we should expect when we hire someone on those terms. Maybe there are some serious dis-synergies of scale to running a bank with 220,000 employees and 10% of the country's deposits. This is what happens when we get too many bank mergers. And maybe more Wells Fargo customers will take this opportunity to move to an online bank that does a better job of respecting their cash.

Oct 15, 2014

Possibly legitimate concern (income inequality)

Stupid solution (I am, therefore I must get paid ... more)

Stupider approach (public e-mail)

... can we move on now, please?

    • 1
Oct 15, 2014

Seriously, what are you talking about? He is a grown man, college graduate. He's making double the minimum wage. Zero excuse for this.

Talking about comp is a no no. Dude ignored every form of protocol also. I can't believe anyone defends this.

Oct 15, 2014
TNA:

Seriously, what are you talking about? He is a grown man, college graduate. He's making double the minimum wage. Zero excuse for this.

Talking about comp is a no no. Dude ignored every form of protocol also. I can't believe anyone defends this.

Unions talk about comp all the time. So do hourly employees. It's a different culture and your I-Banker definition of professionalism doesn't apply to working class blue collar individuals, whom I'd classify bank tellers as. It doesn't even translate all that well to tech or to prop trading. Professionalism means something a little bit different in each field, and I'm not sure this was a breach of professionalism for a $15/hour teller. As you mentioned, the teller could just as easily be working at McDonald's or WalMart. These people aren't professionals and we can't expect them to behave that way.

Oct 15, 2014

People talk about comp with their boss. I don't discuss my comp with fellow employees. And sorry, bank tellers aren't blue collar. And blue collar people have common sense.

Whatever. This guy's teller career is done and justified. Fucking idiot.

Oct 15, 2014
TNA:

People talk about comp with their boss. I don't discuss my comp with fellow employees. And sorry, bank tellers aren't blue collar. And blue collar people have common sense.

Whatever. This guy's teller career is done and justified. Fucking idiot.

He's earning $15/hour. What's the loss?

In any case we're going to see a lot more of this in the future.

Oct 15, 2014

Tell that to the people protesting to make more than minimum wage. When you add I sales bonuses a teller can do well. HSBC had tuition reimbursement. It isn't a worthless job.

Oct 15, 2014

These tellers need to be replaced by machines and brick and mortar branches need to go bye bye. They'll go extinct as the baby boomers do I'm guessing.

    • 1
Oct 15, 2014

I bet this guy's drum circle buddies still hate him for working for the "man"

Oct 15, 2014

what's wrong with a drum circle brahfessor

WSO's COO (Chief Operating Orangutan) | My Linkedin

Oct 15, 2014

I'm sure it's not as occupywallstreety in Buenos Aires, so you're the exception

Oct 15, 2014

Hmmmmm so from my point of view (in recruiting) this man is asking his CEO to piss away 3 billion dollars in what I would deem a firm wide retention bonus when it's only going to help the rank and file shmucks like the e-mailer and even then it has an impact for 1-3 years tops. Even in a high turnover role the cost of replacing the leavers is significantly less than $3 billion.
But you have to give credit for someone willing to put his name on an idea that is not worthy of being used for toilet paper and sending it to the CEO and the majority of the company.

Doog37

Oct 16, 2014

In any case, this guy managed to get his 15 minutes of fame by pissing off a bunch of bankers. At the very least that's quite amusing for this quant and perhaps an accomplishment in itself. If you can't be famous, there's nothing wrong with infamy.

Oct 16, 2014
IlliniProgrammer:

If you can't be famous, there's nothing wrong with infamy.

I have often wondered what every reality show personality's thought process was before they went on to humiliate themselves and everyone who knows them on national television...
I think you have answered that question. Thanks!

BTW it looks like you care more about the fact that it pissed off bankers than the actual content of his e-mail... just saying

Oct 16, 2014

Wells Fargo is a bank that doesn't act with any fiduciary duty towards its customers' money. Clearing checks from largest to smallest, automatic overdrafts (without allowing customers to opt out), universal default, various submarine fees on deposit accounts and credit cards, and various attempts to confuse customers to their detriment isn't very professional.

I find it hilarious that some of the bankers who wrote these credit card agreements and developed these practices are shocked and appalled when their own fiduciaries don't act in their best interests. There's been a fair amount of hypocrisy in the retail banking sector, somebody caused a lot of embarrassment to the bank, and there's nothing you guys can really do to retaliate or prevent it further besides whine about it.

You guys sound like a bunch of consumers whining about banking practices from 10 years ago. If you don't like it, fire your tellers, get out of retail banking and leave it to the local banks and credit unions and Ally.com.

    • 4
Oct 16, 2014

Lol. Do you even know the reasoning behind largest to smallest? It's because bouncing your mortgage check is a bigger deal than a pack of bubble gum. And consumers can decline overdraft, they can have a little early of credit pay for it or they could balance their check books.

Grasping at straws man. Dude is making double minimum wage while sitting in an air conditioned office. He should know CCing and entire organization, talking about comp and providing a child like rational for more money would be seen poorly.

We get it, you support this because you don't like banks or want to slap your Midwestern cock in our faces or whatever, but you are stretching logic way too much.

Oct 16, 2014
TNA:

Lol. Do you even know the reasoning behind largest to smallest? It's because bouncing your mortgage check is a bigger deal than a pack of bubble gum. And consumers can decline overdraft, they can have a little early of credit pay for it or they could balance their check books.

Grasping at straws man. Dude is making double minimum wage while sitting in an air conditioned office. He should know CCing and entire organization, talking about comp and providing a child like rational for more money would be seen poorly.

We get it, you support this because you don't like banks or want to slap your Midwestern cock in our faces or whatever, but you are stretching logic way too much.

Banks claim that but most consumers want to clear checks from smallest to largest. And it makes sense- the late fee on a missed rent payment is usually fairly small compared to bouncing two or three extra checks. Furthermore, why won't the bank let you turn off overdrafts on ATM purchases? Why do consumers have no choice in the matter?

If you tell any fiduciary not to take a certain action with your money, you expect that to be honored. Why did the Feds have to step in to force banks to do what they should have been doing all along?

    • 2
Oct 16, 2014

I think most CEOs at large companies are overpaid but that is for shareholders to complain about, not some guy who gives out lollipops.

    • 2
Oct 21, 2014
adapt or die:

I think most CEOs at large companies are overpaid but that is for shareholders to complain about, not some guy who gives out lollipops.

lol spot on

ultimately everything is a joke, what's the point of even debating it

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Oct 16, 2014

Overdraft has a variety of purposes and the logic of large to small makes sense. Consumers would complain either way. Plain fact is the information is there and the bank could simple deny all charges. Furthermore, it's a function of having a debit card. Places run your card (like at a bar) charge a dollar to make sure your card works then put through the full amount. They should get paid. It's on the consumer to know what is up.

And OK, let's take your position. Fine, banks did something wrong. Consumers are not always blameless. Regardless, what do this have to do with this guy acting like a fool?

Oct 17, 2014
TNA:

Overdraft has a variety of purposes and the logic of large to small makes sense. Consumers would complain either way. Plain fact is the information is there and the bank could simple deny all charges. Furthermore, it's a function of having a debit card. Places run your card (like at a bar) charge a dollar to make sure your card works then put through the full amount. They should get paid. It's on the consumer to know what is up.

And OK, let's take your position. Fine, banks did something wrong. Consumers are not always blameless. Regardless, what do this have to do with this guy acting like a fool?

Of course they should get paid. Consumers also carry cash and credit cards in their wallets. If the consumer says "hey I carry lots of cash and would prefer to avoid paying a $35 overdraft on a $7 burrito, and in fact I want you to deny all overdrafts" they should be allowed to do that. And businesses that don't charge in full for their services at the time they are provided inherently assume credit risk. You have an embarrassingly weak argument for this and that's part of the reason the Feds finally stepped in to make these dishonest business practices illegal.

The problem is that the bank should hold itself to the same standards of fiduciary responsibility that it holds it's employees to. And it holds a rather low standard- by it's own history, Wells Fargo and the other large banks engage in practices that hurt their customers and have become or will become illegal. If their employees can find a way to pressure the firm and do it legally, or if they can find a way to provide extra services the bank didn't ask for and doesn't want but still collect on it, what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Oct 17, 2014

Only three kinds of people I know that carry cash all the time.
1) drug dealers
2) people who frequent strip clubs
3) old people

Follow the shit your fellow monkeys say @shitWSOsays

Life is hard, it's even harder when you're stupid - John Wayne

Oct 16, 2014

And I don't know where you live, but if I bounce my rent I get jacked with a huge fee and if I do it again I can have my contract voided and be evicted. I'd rather pay an Overdraft fee than deal with that.

Now if you want to debate amount of fee, OK, but let's not say it doesn't have a purpose or good.

Oct 16, 2014

So did the employee end up getting fired? any updates?

Oct 16, 2014
OpsDude:

So did the employee end up getting fired? any updates?

Setting the line at 90% not fired/10% fired; 100% chance neutered at work.

The guy has a low paying job available to him at Wells Fargo for life. I don't think he should expect any raises or promotions though. Ever.

Oct 17, 2014
DickFuld:

I don't think he should expect any raises or promotions though. Ever.

No way, he's a straight shooter with upper management written all over him

Oct 17, 2014

Yeah, sure. Well argument. I stated the simple logic behind it. Sorry banks aren't calling customers 24/7 with real time balance numbers. Maybe they can wipe consumers asses for them also.

Large to small is because large payments tend to be important. Fed stepped in because we have a Democrat president and this is a punishment tactic for the banking crisis. Just like how the govt stepped in to regulate debit card fees, causing banks to jack up other fees to offset their income loss.

Oct 17, 2014

Wikipedia has a nice write up on Overdraft, etc. Of course it disagrees with IP, the all knowing bank expert. What do I know though.

For the life of me I don't know how this got into an overdraft discussion. I suppose this is what happens when you grasp at straws to justify a simple unprofessional act.

Oct 17, 2014
TNA:

Wikipedia has a nice write up on Overdraft, etc. Of course it disagrees with IP, the all knowing bank expert. What do I know though.

For the life of me I don't know how this got into an overdraft discussion. I suppose this is what happens when you grasp at straws to justify a simple unprofessional act.

Not justifying an unprofessional act, just chuckling at the righteous indignation and inconsistency in this thread. Banks used to cut off withdrawals when the account balance got to zero. If they can't handle the basic accounting to do that, they should not be in the banking business.

The guy did make a fool of himself. This is what we should expect of an hourly employee. But I think the anger here is a little extreme. Where was the anger when banks were levered 30 to 1 and making bets that caused the housing crisis? What about the attempts to undermine the tax base with corporate inversions. I'm sorry, but our industry doesn't get to talk about professionalism. In order to have professionalism, you need to have values first, and it's clear that the leadership in the financial industry lacks those values. Banks clearly don't care about their customers or the objectives of their regulators. And there's a very good argument that banks don't even care about their shareholders. You can't begin to talk about professionalism until you have values, and I don't think the banks really have any.

So the argument that he made a fool of himself is correct but the righteous indignation on this board is like Jimmy Swaggart cheating on his wife and then yelling about gays getting married. And this was really less embarrassing for him than dragging his friends into a Jerry Springer like confrontation with a significant other, which at least one person whom I respect has done.

Finally, this process is going to repeat itself. Any time you have a firm with 220,000 employees, someone is going to send a mass email on occasion. This is one of many diseconomies of scale to running a large bank. Maybe bank shareholders should have the power to block mergers over a certain size.

Finally Wikipedia agrees with me. Read the last section on opt-in. The Feds stepped in in 2010 to curb overdraft abuse by banks. Customers must now specify whether they want to be able to overdraw their accounts for a $35/transaction fee. I'd rather have the transaction declined or have the ATM refuse to dispense cash, and consumers should have that option.

http://mobile.bloomberg.com/news/2014-07-31/bank-f...

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Oct 17, 2014
IlliniProgrammer:

The guy did make a fool of himself. This is what we should expect of an hourly employee.

Your elitism is showing a little.

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Oct 17, 2014

@"DickFuld" just got certified and no one's talking about that?! this either means

1. it's Richard Motherfucking Severin Fuld Jr.
2. it's some dude who's actually in the industry but just posting under dick fuld
3. Patrick goofed up and it's a high school kid who faps to wolf of wall street

discuss.

Oct 17, 2014

3.

Follow the shit your fellow monkeys say @shitWSOsays

Life is hard, it's even harder when you're stupid - John Wayne

Oct 17, 2014
thebrofessor:

@DickFuld just got certified and no one's talking about that?! this either means

1. it's Richard Motherfucking Severin Fuld Jr.

2. it's some dude who's actually in the industry but just posting under dick fuld

3. Patrick goofed up and it's a high school kid who faps to wolf of wall street

discuss.

3 would be my guess.

Oct 17, 2014
DickFuld:
thebrofessor:

@DickFuld just got certified and no one's talking about that?! this either means

1. it's Richard Motherfucking Severin Fuld Jr.

2. it's some dude who's actually in the industry but just posting under dick fuld

3. Patrick goofed up and it's a high school kid who faps to wolf of wall street

discuss.

3 would be my guess.

If I didn't know better, based upon my post history.

Oct 17, 2014

Here's a thought: If you want more money? Get a better paying job.

Oct 17, 2014

10 years down the line he wud wish his kids won't be able to uncover the identity of the author of the letter

"Never Drive Faster Than Your Guardian Angel Can Fly"

Oct 18, 2014

I'd like to hear opinions from people on how this is any different from IB base salaries being raised to $85k across the board for all incoming employees, regardless of "merit" they show. Obviously, once we heard Goldman and BAML started to raise base salaries, employees across the board started feeling entitled to this raise at their respective firms as well. I know I've personally heard from a bunch of my friends once that occurred lines such as "This is bullshit, if Barcap/DB/JP don't raise salaries as well, I'm gonna be pissed."

You guys need to calm down with the double-standard. So he asked for a raise across the board. Big deal. Who the fuck cares, and who the fuck gets this angry that it comes to insults from guys like TNA, LOL. Guys, move on with your lives already. You don't even know or should care about what some random guy emails his boss at a company you don't even work for.

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Oct 18, 2014
MBXS:

I'd like to hear opinions from people on how this is any different from IB base salaries being raised to $85k across the board for all incoming employees, regardless of "merit" they show. Obviously, once we heard Goldman and BAML started to raise base salaries, employees across the board started feeling entitled to this raise at their respective firms as well. I know I've personally heard from a bunch of my friends once that occurred lines such as "This is bullshit, if Barcap/DB/JP don't raise salaries as well, I'm gonna be pissed."

You guys need to calm down with the double-standard. So he asked for a raise across the board. Big deal. Who the fuck cares, and who the fuck gets this angry that it comes to insults from guys like TNA, LOL. Guys, move on with your lives already. You don't even know or should care about what some random guy emails his boss at a company you don't even work for.

Guys, we have our orders. The chief has spoken.

It's called discussing current affairs pal. No one's blood pressure is being raised.

Oct 18, 2014
TNA:
MBXS:

I'd like to hear opinions from people on how this is any different from IB base salaries being raised to $85k across the board for all incoming employees, regardless of "merit" they show. Obviously, once we heard Goldman and BAML started to raise base salaries, employees across the board started feeling entitled to this raise at their respective firms as well. I know I've personally heard from a bunch of my friends once that occurred lines such as "This is bullshit, if Barcap/DB/JP don't raise salaries as well, I'm gonna be pissed."

You guys need to calm down with the double-standard. So he asked for a raise across the board. Big deal. Who the fuck cares, and who the fuck gets this angry that it comes to insults from guys like TNA, LOL. Guys, move on with your lives already. You don't even know or should care about what some random guy emails his boss at a company you don't even work for.

Guys, we have our orders. The chief has spoken.

It's called discussing current affairs pal. No one's blood pressure is being raised.

I still would love to hear how there's a difference on this guy requesting a firmwide raise, and you guys freaking out, and people getting excited and hoping streetwide IB raises occur despite none of these being taken on merit. Oh wait, "poor people suck."

Oct 18, 2014
MBXS:

I'd like to hear opinions from people on how this is any different from IB base salaries being raised to $85k across the board for all incoming employees, regardless of "merit" they show. Obviously, once we heard Goldman and BAML started to raise base salaries, employees across the board started feeling entitled to this raise at their respective firms as well. I know I've personally heard from a bunch of my friends once that occurred lines such as "This is bullshit, if Barcap/DB/JP don't raise salaries as well, I'm gonna be pissed."

You guys need to calm down with the double-standard. So he asked for a raise across the board. Big deal. Who the fuck cares, and who the fuck gets this angry that it comes to insults from guys like TNA, LOL. Guys, move on with your lives already. You don't even know or should care about what some random guy emails his boss at a company you don't even work for.

Guys, we have our orders. The chief has spoken.

It's called discussing current affairs pal. No one's blood pressure is being raised.

Oct 18, 2014

A fair comparison would be this guy emailing his district boss and saying that other banks have increased teller comp and he wants similar comp or he is quitting. When a market floor increases all wages rise.

Instead he emails the entire firm, not just his direct boss or his bosses boss and gives a child like argument to increase wages. It was unprofessional and stupid.

Furthermore, what business does this dude have advocating someone else's comp? He doesn't.

Also, no one is pissed. It's a finance forum and we are having a discussion regarding a off topic finance story. It's called industry people killing time.

And this guy is hardly poor and weary. 15 bucks as a bank teller in cushy work environment isn't killing himself laying bricks. Cry me a river.

Oh and if you think the topic is dumb then don't chime in. Real simple.

Oct 18, 2014

Oh and why the fuck should he get more money or anyone else in the firm? CEO comp should decrease and be paid to shareholders through a share buy back or dividend. Increasing comp isn't happening in any situation.

Oct 19, 2014

I truly appreciate the beauty of this conversation turning into a debate on overdraft fees because I accidentally have them (too many bank accounts, too little concern about details).

I think the guy who wrote this letter is a jackass. It should be a good way to get fired. Grow some balls and form a union if you want but a passive and easy act to bitch about your pay is silly. And to say that $3B should be divided by the number of employees is even sillier. Although I'm not a union guy by any means, I'd actually have respect for someone who had the balls to step up and organize people in a meaningful way rather than hit send. I may not agree, but I'd at least respect someone who had the balls and ability to do it.

I think that more employees should be paid a better wage, and not for some socialist feel good way. CEO pay has gotten out of hand. Personally I think that entrepreneurs and others that can individually and quantitatively be measured for profit or shareholder value should personally profit in a profound way. I also think that executives who bring about a significant increase in shareholder value should profit, in a Jack Welch sort of way, not simply because the CEO of Wells Fargo hasn't allowed the ship to sink. There should be a risk/reward sort of relationship, not simply an options award because the CEO worked that year. Bill Gates should be worth whatever ungodly sum he's worth. A piece of shit CEO whose share price has stagnated, gone with the market or even declined shouldn't be handed an eight figure check just because he kept the seat warm.

What those in the "1%", and I'd like to use their words, should be concerned about is the widening gulf between the average worker and the CEO (or any very high earning senior person, in an operating company, in IB, an HF/PE fund, law, or whatever). It's pretty well documented that the income gulf has widened and earnings for the average American has stagnated, and with inflation has actually eroded, while upper income earners wages have increased, most likely greatly depending on which numbers you'd like to believe. I, through skill, hard work and luck have put myself in that upper income level, so I'm by no means personally waving the hammer and sickle, but I also have family and friends who are not. And they're pissed. Really pissed. The whole Occupy Wall Street movement didn't become an outright revolution simply because they were too disorganized and didn't want an organized front (stupid hipsters), and because they didn't have a charismatic leader to unite the movement. They were idiots basically because they could have seized upon the anger of a decent percentage, and it didn't need to be a vast majority, of the population to seriously disrupt the status quo, or even completely change our country and the world. Almost every major social (not only socialist) movement throughout recent history has had a leader that was able to unite enough people together to bring about major societal, governmental, civil and militaristic changes-Castro, Ho Chi Minh, Mao, Hitler, Lenin, in a way even the US Revolutionaries-because they had a leader(s) who was able to garner enough support amongst the masses to unite those who were not in power and didn't "have." I don't think it's a very extreme thought that a savvy and charismatic leader could come about for that movement. In my opinion, we just missed that.

What the "1%" shouldn't want to happen is to continue the widening gap until a charismatic leader does arrive and spell doom not only for the top of the pyramid, but for everyone, because as we all have the hindsight to know, Communism/Socialism (or National Socialism) didn't work for the bourgeoisie or the proletariat. And unlike a Randian world, the producers are not going to retreat to a mountain and give up all their shit. The capitalist class is completely dependent upon the rest of society for their wealth and power.

I don't know an actual mechanical way to make it happen but lower income wages should increase. Give me all the stuff about minimum wage increases leading to higher prices and inflation, but I think we dodged a bullet the last time and I just hope that a movement with a strong leader doesn't evolve that will gain power. Or maybe I'll try to form that movement and be the leader, who knows.

Or maybe it's just getting late and I should sleep.

Oct 19, 2014

If well Fargo is anything like HSBC then they make a lot more than 15 an hour. Tellers have sales goals as they are the eyes and ears of a branch. They refer to platform and get sales points. I'd say it can add 5-10k per year to their income.

I'll agree with Ding that minimum wage should increase. I think wealth inequality is fine though.

Also, it is pretty sad we are even discussing the rise of a dictator. Germany, Italy, Russia, all saw dictators rise because of absolute poverty. The poor and low class in the US live like kings compared to then and other countries now. Free health care, welfare food stamps, subsidized phones, housing, etc. No one starves in America. Homeless people are largely single males or nuts.

While we can and should do more if an uprising happens it will stem from being spoiled or racial.

Besides, thus country isn't going to rise up and be socialist. We'd rise up and be the most heinous fascist nation in the world. Fascism is basically capitalism with a militant element. With the military industrial complex and proliferation of guns with regions right wingers the left ought to do all it can to keep it voting base happy and quiet.

Oct 19, 2014

The Guilded Age? Are you serious? We live in an era of unprecedented prosperity. We have a gigantic middle class with access to better tools for fun, comfort, and convenience than billionaires 20 years ago. Our poverty rate is about the same as it was 50 years ago, but those impoverished have access to all kinds of welfare benefits and entitlements. Like ANT said, there is no one starving in America other than homeless people, who mostly are people with mental disorders. Not even mentioning that more than 60% of America owns their own home.

Our time doesn't in any way reflect the late 19th century in America or France before the French Revolution. When I hear stuff like that I often wonder if the person writing it wrote it from their Galaxy or iPhone.

"Income inequality" DID matter in 18th century France and 19th century America because much of the people during those times were being denied the opportunity to prosper. In 21st century America, my CEO earning $19 million per year should have no bearing at all so long as I'm treated properly and being paid a fair wage for my skills, responsibilities, and hours worked. Why does it matter? I keep hearing that this income inequality DOES matter. Why? Back this up with some sort of logic or facts.

If the Left wants to reduce income inequality because for some bizarre, un-stated reason it is an issue then the best way to combat it is at the ground level--improving public education in urban or otherwise impoverished areas through neutering teachers' unions, through expansion of charter schools, through removal of teacher tenure, and expansion of voucher programs. The Left is dedicated to the idea that fixing the "problem" with income inequality is as simple as raising taxes and redistributing money.

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Dec 21, 2014

delete

Oct 20, 2014

Increased to taxes on line serves to increase government, not raise up the poor. I wish people would get that.

Oct 20, 2014

This thread is turning into a reality TV show type argument... For the life of me I have no idea why I keep checking in to see what the latest argument is.
FYI... when I logged back in today (monday morning) this thread got 20 new comments since friday evening .. For all the models & bottles we talk about I am surprised people still took out the time over the weekend to contribute here

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Oct 20, 2014

In any case, people can always be counted on to lobby in their best interests (at least when it is intellectually honest.) And WSO can always be counted on to:

1.) Tell people to take out massive debt for private school.
2.) Tell people to dig themselves deeper into debt to live in Manhattan and rent more apartment than they can afford.
3.) Idolize people who do illegal shit (EG Wolf of Wall Street; Micheal Milken; Boiler Room)
4.) Whine incessantly and unproductively about tellers sending out whiney and unproductive emails.

Whether we admit it publicly or not, there's a part of everyone that is thinking that a lot of what we see on WSO is really screwed up. And I'm the only one socially awkward enough to point out what everyone else is thinking.

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Oct 21, 2014
IlliniProgrammer:

I'm the only one socially awkward enough

Painfully awkward Rob Lowe

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Oct 21, 2014
adapt or die:

Rob Lowe

Your age is showing.

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Oct 21, 2014

But let's get back on point. It is hypocritical for a bunch of bankers to make whiney and unproductive posts about a bank teller sending an allegedly whiney and unproductive email.

And at least the bank teller had the balls to do it with his real name attached and fire it off to 200,000 employees. We're all hiding behind our keyboards grumbling about it. That doesn't solve anything- all it does is keep the email on the front page, which may be counter-productive to those who oppose the email.

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Oct 21, 2014

I think there is a real problem in that the pay at the bottom to the top is so wide. I'm not necessarily referring to what this guy made an e-mail to the CEO on, but I'm just saying executive pay is ridiculous today.

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Oct 21, 2014
jargon223:

I'm just saying executive pay is ridiculous today.

Finally, a sensible argument in this thread. During the good times, executive pay was worth showing up to work for, but today? Hardly worth the effort. Stock options don't exist like they used to and that was where the real money was made.

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Oct 21, 2014
Comment
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Oct 21, 2014