What happens after the golden ticket? BB IB -> MM/MF PE -> HBS-> PE/HF: then what?
Hey guys, longtime lurker here, reading a lot about the short term of working in IB and going into PE/HF, and maybe later B-school. But what happens after that? I hear a lot about hedge fund analysts looking to be PM's and starting their own funds, or some IB analysts going on to the MD route.
What about the hypothetical former TPG associate, having done banking, TPG PE, about to graduate from HBS at 28? Assuming he wanted to continue in finance, what jobs, lifestyle, and comp are expected? Would it be a (WSO says very rare?) post-MBA associate position with the goal of making partner? Would it be a value investing hedge fund?
WSO has a mostly younger community, but also from networking I've almost never heard of MDs or PE Partners being older than early 40's. What did everyone 40+ do, retire?
for post-MBA PE associates, many of them leave PE after they find out they wont make it to the upper ranks. where they go after varies; can be HF, corp dev, etc.
The jobs that are going to remain open besides getting lucky and grabbing the brass ring and heading back to a mega fund are: trading down to a smaller buyside shop (still tough), moving to more vanilla Asset Management, going back to IB, corporate finance and corp dev. Lifestyle varies tremendously an IB associate will work marginally less than an analyst, buyside shops have tremendous variability, IM/AM are more market hour oriented, corp fin can be more relaxed. Comp varies MFs pay well I've heard of up to 400K including bonuses and carry or phantom carry, IB is 100 base, 25-50 sign on and a 50-150 bonus, corp dev seems to be 100-125 base, 25 sign on and about a 30% bonus, AM/IM is variable.
@guyfromct:
If the comp ranges you've mentioned are on the mark, the whole purpose of IBD + PE is called into question. 90+ hours a week for four years on the 2+2 Prestige Express and business school debt only to come out with a corporate gig worth 150k? A joke if I've ever seen one.
I spent time in the public sector and people 6 years in were taking down 125k working roughly 35 hours a week (about 9 till 5, 1 hour for lunch, knock off at 4:30 on a Friday) with no stress. That, plus four weeks annual vacation and employer paid training courses (read: fun times) in Europe every year or two.
And heading into IM/AM? If that was the goal why wouldn't you go there in the first place?
Start in the F500 at 22, be excellent at your job, and you'll be taking down 150k by the time your 28. And you might just have enjoyed your twenties.
There is still tremendous value in it for a number of reasons, just not the ones so frequently cited. 1. You truly learn finance and deal making. This is a huge advantage in and of itself and will serve you well throughout your career. 2. You build out your network. Just like in consulting you build out an impressive Rolodex which you can leverage later. 3. You get the branding. Seeing investment banking experience on a resume makes it stand out particularly if it's a well known firm. 4. You can always go A-to-A. So while your friends go to PE and then MBA for a 2/3 shot at getting back in at Harvard and worse as you go through the M7, you'll be an A3/VP1 when they get out of b school. People on here shit on banking, but it pays well and life gets better and different as you go up the chain. You start transitioning from execution to laying out the grand strategy and managing the relationships.
When it comes to making the leap over to a corporate gig, if you're good you won't stay at 150 for too long, I have talked to a number of alums who are directors and are in their mid 30s, figure that at F500 that pays 250-400 and not in NHC, so much lower COL. Also the work can be very interesting.
then they start thinking for themselves and deciding what they want to do.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_private_equity_firms
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Carlyle_Group
http://www.kkr.com/leadership
http://www.blackstone.com/the-firm/overview/our-people
DF, I understand that top leadership in top funds are naturally filled with very experienced senior people, many of whom non-coincidentally were around during the junk bond / PE industry boom of the 1980's. I'm wondering where the remaining / recent 99.5% of former MF/MM pre-MBA associates go. A linkedin search yields few results, and it seems committing to a career field based on the 4-6 year horizon isn't optimal... Anyone have anecdotal evidence?
So you're telling me a guy who goes from ibd to top mm/mf pe, then h/s/w can't get even a lower mm pe placement?
I constantly hear about the lack of pe exits but so what? We're talking about a small group in the first place. I've read posts about how post mba pe placement from mba directly depends on the pre mba pe experience. I.E. If 80 people had pre mba pe, around 80 people will get pe after.
How would an ex tpg guy not find anything pe/hf related? That's absurd...
People on here love to exaggerate, just like some on here say only 50% of BB IB analysts make it to the buyside in any capacity. These transitions are fairly easy and logical, even with all of the competition.
The number of post-MBA PE associate jobs is much smaller than the number of pre-MBA PE associates jobs. So only a small percentage of pre-MBA PE associates will get post-MBA PE associate jobs after b-school. But the majority of them won't.
But that's not OP's question. OP's question is, after getting post-MBA PE associate job, then what? Only a small percentage of post-MBA PE associates will move to PE's upper ranks, What happen to the rest of them?
What has been exaggerated by many posters is the real gold content of the so-called golden ticket.
You are making the implicit assumption that the number of post-MBA PE associate jobs is about the same as the number of pre-MBA PE associate jobs. The reality is the number of post-MBA PE associate jobs is much smaller than the number of pre-MBA PE associate jobs.
For Wharton for example: http://mbacareers.wharton.upenn.edu/statistics/full-time.cfm
PE/VC pre-mba is 16% of the class. For Post-MBA PE/Buyouts/Other category is 10.8% And the VC category is 2.5%.
Lets discount for other by say 1/3rd and that still leaves you with 7%+2.5 = 9.5% getting PE/VC post MBA down from 16% coming in with that exp. That's not too bad IMO.
After you graduate from HBS and go to a PE/HF, a guy in a green suit named Steve comes and you follow him to a secret lair. This is where you start your pledging process for Illuminati. Now, pledging is serious so don't get complacent (only top bucket pledges make it all the way through). If you do make it through pledging, Steve (now in a purple suit) takes you to a room with three doors: one goes to heaven, one goes to hell, and one goes to Hogwarts. Choose wisely because Voldemort is waiting at the end of door #3. Heard only one guy in his class made it to heaven last year so good luck--you'll need it.
I worked at a large tech company (Facebook/Square) and there were quite a few in "operational" roles.
Good question. Probably less than 20% of pre-MBA PE associates get the post-MBA role. Where the rest go is completely spread out across banking, other asset management, corporate development, etc. Just one example - I know someone who did banking --> PE --> Wharton MBA, and now works in strategy at Zocdoc.
And out of those who get post-MBA role, only a very small fraction will move up to the upper ranks. PE partners stay practically forever. This makes the career advancement in PE difficult, slow, and uncertain. This is different in IB. IB MDs often leave to form their own PE, HF, and boutique advisory shops, or pursue business ventures in the sector they cover. This opens up the upper ranks of IB to the more junior bankers. It is much easier to move up the ranks in IB than in PE.
So, even among those who get the post-MBA role, most of them will leave PE in a few years for the lack of career advancement.
Yes - bankers leave all of the time to open up hedge funds. Happens almost every day.
Yes. You are doing a great service to the WSO community by post this. Many young analysts who have their eyes on PE need to know the long-term implication of their career choices.
Greatness
SB for the LSO reference
Do you all think people move into Corp Dev more by choice or more by restricted opportunity? Do ex PE associates get older and decide they want a better lifestyle and are satisfied with the different pace?
I also wonder how senior one typically needs to be to open a PE shop or HF. I guess a lot of people from top MF or MM would do that instead of making it to partner.
Regardless the reason, it makes you question the wisdom of chasing after the so-called "prestige" and the exit opps.
By the time they move into Corp Dev, after all those troubles, their former colleagues at IB will be making VPs or EDs. The works and life style of IB VP/ED are much better than the analyst's. Comparing the IB VP/ED and the Corp Dev middle management, who do you think gets the better deal?
The Corp Dev guy. Definitely the Corp Dev guy. Dear Lord, the Corp Dev guy every day and twice on Sundays.
Corp Dev.
It is ridiculous to assume that all associates will get promoted to VP or ED.
I feel for the firm that hired you (if any)
Up or out!
lol this guy is on an island. trying way too hard to defend ibanking. it's a sad, sad miserable career and lifestyle (k maybe not so much, but this hedgeking guy is really sad).
Is ad hominem all you can come up with? Can you answer OP's question? What happened to those PE associates in their later careers? Someone in this thread indicated many of them ended up in Corp Dev/Corp Strategy. Do you want to dispute that?
Stick to facts, evidences, logic, and the subject of discussion. No ad hominem please.
You could do what you enjoy, that's always an option.
Oh wait nvm, half this forum is asian so parents would disapprove (cough cough)
Many people that get to be mid-senior bankers (VP, director) end up leaving to either start a company or join a client in a senior operating role. Same goes for kids a top MBA programs. I know several people that took the IB -> PE-> top MBA -> startup route.
I personally left at the VP level because I got sick of the deal cycle. You spend months and months, sometimes years, getting to know everything about a specific company at a very deep level. The deal ends, and you're on to the next one and starting all over. I began to realize what I really enjoyed was working with the senior execs and talking about their business versus actually doing a deal. I wanted to be part of something that was more continuous and constantly creating value.
That's why young analysts should do their own research, not just follow the herd.
Zero chance you get to $150k by 28 in F500, starting there as as analyst at 22. The raises/promotions/etc are very slow. Even $100k would be rare without a MBA.
Likewise, F500 directors aren't making $250-$400k, they are making $180-200k.
This site is so ridiculous when it comes to salary. Even from top 5 business school, the average salary 10 years out is only a little over $200k. A handful of super stars make $$$, but its rare, and they really kill themselves to get there. You can't just take it easy, and go be a director in F500 making $400k at 35.
@OpsDude
No you're wrong - I can confirm several people who have offers in corp dev making at least $150k all in after 2 years in banking.
F500 directors make more than $180k-$200k easily. You forget the stock and bonus portion.
@torchic I should specify, I was responding to fixedfaileddelivered above who said you should start F500 straight out of undergrad at 22, and that you'll be making $$$ by 28. Corp Dev and Corporate strategy type of roles do pay more, but you can't access them directly without banking/consulting experience first. If you get to director level in Corp Dev you do make a bit more, but you're also not getting there in your early 30's either.
duly noted - though I'd say that you can definitely break $150k all in - 10k a year raise from like ~60-70 base and you'll get there. However, we can all agree that it's low
$10k a year raises at junior levels are almost unheard of outside of finance and consulting. My friends who work corp 500 get barely more than cost of living adjustments every year, and ~7%-10% raises when they are promoted every 3-4 years. Norm would be, by 30, having two major promotions, and maybe clearing $90k, less if you're in a LOC area. Absolute rock stars with a big team under them are making $120k max by 30/32.
I quickly searched J&J because I think it's a good proxy for a generic F500 company. Directors make between $120-$200k: http://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Johnson-and-Johnson-Salaries-E364.htm
@"OpsDude" is right. Corporate jobs in general just don't pay nearly as much as finance jobs until you get close to or into the c-suite and you generally don't get promoted as quickly. If you leave a more senior position in IB/PE/MBB and land a good gig at a big and active company like Apple, Google or even MSFT in corp dev, you'll make more but you'll still probably take a cut from the finance/consulting job you just left and you'll most likely be well into your 30's at that point to be able to get that level of company to hire you.
There's a chance to make great money when you're younger if you can join a younger tech firm that does well and you've negotiated good options packages but that's a crap shoot with the company you choose. For example, 6 or 8 years ago if you left your good IB or consulting job to join FB or MySpace and had gotten decent options, you'd be a rockstar if you choose FB and be SOL if you choose Myspace.
I have friends who have made it in the corporate world who make decent money but they didn't really make money until they were >35, other than some guys who went into tech startups, worked their asses off and got lucky that they chose the right one that went public or got acquired and didn't simply go out of business or stagnate for years.
@dingdong08 This site is just ridiculous with salary expectations...so many college aged kids thinking the world is just going to hand them salaries in the top 1% like it's candy. I remember reading someone saying "You won't be rich in operations, but it's realistic to make $300-400k after 10 years or so." Or, people when looking at front office salaries, think top bucket, at the top group, at the top bank, is the total comp everyone in investment banking makes.
ohhh you're talking corporate corporate ? Like a financial analyst or FP&A? Then I agree
but lets shy away from salary talk and get back on topic
There are essentially two issues with the IB -> PE -> MBA -> PE career path.
(1) scarcity of post-MBA positions.
(2) difficulty of moving up after getting a post-MBA role.
There have been some discussions on the first issue. How about the second? Anyone wants to say something about that one?
Anyone wants to talk about the second issue, about the difficulty of moving up after getting a post-MBA role in PE?
I'm baffled by the idea that MBAs from PE backgrounds go work in corporate development. How much do those guys get paid, $125-200k? Compared to the PE/HF world where at the same level you'd be making $600-1,000k? I guess everyone isn't motivated by money... but everyone does have a price and surely there comes a point when the disparity is so high you sign over your soul... and I would think $200k vs. $1m does the trick.
I've heard of people going to HFs and making absurd amounts of money in the HF world. How can you justify spending 2 years and a quarter million dollars to go to b-school and then get a job making $200k instead of making nearly $1m at a HF? That disparity surely hits the "sign over my soul" threshold.
Am I missing something? The partner track guys I worked with in PE were living ridiculous lifestyles... private jets, ferrari's, chartering yachts... of course it was low key and done without anyone knowing, they weren't running around 9 West 57th like Flloyd Mayweather using wads of 100 dollar bills as a door stop... but their income afforded them pretty much any luxury they desired (the ones that wanted to alteast). Contrast that to making $200k... pushing a grocery cart around Whole Foods in Hoboken and having to watch your expenses. Its not about the cars etc... but just the two completely different universes these two people live in.
As others mentioned, it's supply and demand. There's much less post-mba partner-track PE positions than pre-mba. Some people don't make it - either flunk out in interviewing, or can't make the jump from associate to VP. Most of the people in Corp Dev would've loved to be making multiple millions per year in PE, but there just aren't that many positions.
I was looking at a few tech corp dev jobs before I ended up co-founding my own company so I'll weigh in on a few fronts.
I was a VP at a tech boutique IB. To some of the comments on buy side vs banking, I'm not saying that banking is better by any means, but I had a better quality of life than my post MBA PE buddies, generally VP or Principal level. I was/am in a 2nd/3rd tier market. The hours were really good and comp was decent. My PE friends still have much less control over their lives due to how competitive bidding processes are right now. They always seem to be scrambling. As a VP at a small IB, you completely manage the process and can eliminate BS deadlines that are so prevalent in banking - that is a total game changer.
My PE friends were making more money than me, but in our city the difference in income is meaningless in terms of quality of life so I'd prefer the fewer hours. That said, I was bored and wanted a new challenge. PE just seems too similar to banking for me (worked in sponsors coverage at a BB for three years and didn't pursue PE then, even though I had clients asking me to join). You ultimately have similar but slightly different headaches. I don't like the constantly revolving focus on different companies and industry sectors.
When I finally ended up leaving banking I wanted to build something; that was my primary focus, not necessarily money. I thought that acquiring tech startups to help grow a tech company sounded exciting. I also viewed it as a path to starting my own company, which had always been a goal. Create something (while taking a few engineers with you) that you know the company is lacking and then flip it back to the company.
I had several opportunities that I was negotiating when my current partners approached me. The pay in tech corp dev (no idea about other industries) is pretty good. Base salaries were above $200k at that level, plus bonus (smaller than banking) and equity. Plus, the pay grades escalate rapidly if you can move up. Most people on this forum have never made $200k in a year, let alone $300k or $500k. I have, and I can tell you that there's not a huge difference if you're not focused on keeping up with the neighbors with the biggest house, car, etc. (NYC and London are sort of different).
I've always known that the true way to build wealth is through entrepreneurship so that's where I ended up. The lifestyle delta, particularly outside of NYC, between $250k and $500k isn't really that much. To the comments around making a million/year at a HF. That is a pipe dream for most. It is so luck driven. I know a few guys that fit that mold, and it does happen. Those seats are few and far between. It's as much about being in the right place at the right time. It's not a path that you can count on. If you hit it, then awesome.
[quote=TechBanking
I've always known that the true way to build wealth is through entrepreneurship so that's where I ended up. The lifestyle delta, particularly outside of NYC, between $250k and $500k isn't really that much. To the comments around making a million/year at a HF. That is a pipe dream for most. It is so luck driven. I know a few guys that fit that mold, and it does happen. Those seats are few and far between. It's as much about being in the right place at the right time. It's not a path that you can count on. If you hit it, then awesome.
[/quote]
Great post. Pursuing the entrepreneur route can not only a much more rewarding experience than being a wage serf (even a highly paid one in HF/PE) it is also much more advantageous from a tax stand point.
For the company you are running, did you have to fund it with your own savings? Are you taking a salary or is it all sweat equity at this stage?
TechBanker - When you got offers for corp dev, how many years of IBD experience did you have? Also, does having a MBA help for getting a high-paying corp dev job even if you're an experienced banker (VP or higher)?
I bet this happens more often than you think
Most HFs don't pay low-level people well, and if market goes against you, you can be out of the door very soon. Even if you make PM in HF, if the fund you manage doesn't do well, you can get kicked out in no time, and that can happen to very smart individuals too.
But this thread is mainly about PE, I suppose.
Define not being paid well.
If you're at a H/S, I'm going to assume you come from a top tier PE firm, in which case you've got access to top tier HF opportunities. The people I've seen go to top tier HFs right after pre-MBA PE have comp packages in the $500-800k range... and that's being conservative (i.e., there are one off cases where people are paid out substantially more than that).
Dingdong08 is a pretty high-level guy in PE. Don't know if he owns Ferrari's and private jet. Maybe he can tell us if he doesn't mind.
I am not sure if top tier HFs hire from top tier PE background in large quantities. But in any event, you are talking about top tier HFs, and I was talking about most HFs, and the variation in the HF world can be huge.
Even at top tier HFs, the $500-800k range you mentioned is about the same range as VP 2/3 - ED in BB IBD anyway, only with much higher risk. If you factor in the risk premium, it's not exactly a better deal.
Well, except that the HF seat I described is 4 years into your career (2 years banking, 2 years PE) and the banking seat you describe is 8-10 years into your career (3 years analyst, 3 years associate, 2-4 years VP/ED).
All good points nonetheless.
Perhaps this is the wrong thread to ask this question but I wanted to throw it out there. I understand that there's a scarcity of positions post MBA in PE. Given that, for those of you who have made that jump or who know people who have, how did you/they do it? What sets them apart from the littany of ambitious, hard working and well-branded pre MBA associates? Is there an element of luck or are there things people can do to maximize their chances?
IN YOUR CONTROL: 1. Solid work product
Make fit culturally - i.e., make sure people like working with you + think you will be a long-term fit
Give impression you can/will be successful as a more senior PE professional
OUT OF YOUR CONTROL: 1. PE is a "buyer's market" -- There are far fewer post-MBA PE positions vs. pre-MBA positions. Don't mean to rehash the same point that has been mentioned several times here, but would add that many of those (scare) post-MBA positions will be filled by former pre-MBAs who got MBAs or were promoted directly -- thus, cut is very tough
PE is a maturing industry -- many funds are shrinking (or at least not growing), so has put a drag on need for post-MBAs (who are quite expensive, in partner-track roles, get carry, etc.)
The macro PE environment + fundraising will have a large impact on the number of positions available needed - so this will largely depend on luck
Fund performance dictate (to an extent) need to raise additional capital + add more post-MBAs. You can diligence returns + performance before joining, but there's obviously an element of luck here as well
Thanks man. I appreciate the response. I'll focus on things I can control then and keep my options open
The IB -> top tier PE -> top tier HF may happen to some individuals, but it is still not a well-trodden and well-established career path.
Banking route may be longer, but is much safer.
lol im in a process where the "senior vp" is sending out emails and financials models at 3 am. banking may be "safe" but it sure is horrible. give me the millions and self-respect any day.
Our junior team gets crushed but VPs are out the door by 7-10PM the majority of the time, with exceptions for the more junior VPs and those working on live processes. Exceedingly rare to see any of them in the office on weekends - ever. And my group is viewed as a sweatshop.
Point being, you make VP by 26/27/28 as a direct promote, bank 400k and work ~60 hours a week with relatively little risk. If you have the personality and panache to build relationships + a mind for sales, it's a pretty good gig.
I wouldn't say that there is little risk. VPs are the first ones to go on the chopping block, and there is a lot of pressure to make Director.
Unless you started FT IB when you were 20, no one is getting promoted to VP at 26.
Senior VP sending out emails and financial models at 3 am, though not unheard of, is very rare. I have never seen one, by the way. What kind of group and bank is he in?
you nailed it. key words: not unheard of. when im 35-40, i dont want to be reviewing CIMs and models past midnight. have a good life
It's once in a blue moon kind of thing. It's extremely rare. Must be rarer than some specialist doctor being called into ICU at 3 am. Again, can you tell me what kind of group and bank he is in?
From what I have observed, VPs who got cut during bad time or left on their own tend to find ok gigs in industry, with coverage groups doing better than product groups probably due to industry-specific knowledge they possess. The rule of thumb in pay seems to be about 60%. So a junior VP making 400k would probably make about 240k in corp dev/strategy, which is not bad during economic hard time. At that level, they have enough skills, knowledge, and connections to come back to banking when the time is good again, if they so choose.
On the other hand, again from what I have observed, the HFers who got cut during recession had in general much tougher time finding new employment. Heard some of them became day traders who eventually lost all of their money.
Not you again with your nonsense blabberings about investment banking.
Are you currently working in the industry? This is a question I've asked before, but you always seem to deflect.
You really are putting in the time to plug the IB path.
Though I agree with the general premise here, viz., IB is lower risk with great rewards, you're getting a bit obnoxious hammering on the buyside. Sure, many direct promote Analysts can coast there way to VP, but it's not all roses along the way. In my experience, Analysts leave for the buyside not because they expect to multiply their earnings potential, but instead because they are pulling their hair out with client-driven dealmaking.
And, to anticipate your counterpoint: yes, it gets better. VPs do, indeed, work more reasonable hours. But the lifestyle of VPs - even in some of the better EB / BB groups - pales in comparison to their peers in Principal roles in PE or junior PMs / senior Analysts at HFs, both in terms of compensation and hours.
To be sure, the binomial probability may lead to a lower E(V) due to tougher odds. It may, as you say, be a dream. But it's a pretty easy dream to sell to overqualified 2nd years who are ready to jump out the window nearest their cube at 200 West.
@TechBanking - finally some reality on the forum. Nice post!
making it up the ranks in banking is also much easier than buyside because your competition is just a complete joke.
This is simply not true. Some of the weakest members of my BB analyst class ended up going into PE and some are still there. There are plenty of very talented people as you move up the ranks in banking. There are also plenty of morons on the buyside. If all HF people are so crazy talented, why don't more funds beat the S&P (and that's not even counting returns after 2/20)?
Making the jump up the ranks in banking is hard for many people because the skill set and focus of the job changes a lot as you move up. You have to successfully transition from the number crunching/powerpoint skills of the analyst level to the sales, networking and management (deal and junior employee) role of senior banker. Many analysts are so burnt out that they simply don't care about moving up, and many of the top analysts do end up on the buyside, at least for some period of time. That doesn't mean that those that go to the buyside are always more talented than people that move up the ranks or come in post-MBA. Over the years I had plenty of opportunities to join the buyside, but it wasn't of interest to me (maybe I'm just not that talented/competitive).
So far, few posts addressed the issue OP brought up. After getting the post-MBA PE role, then what? How many of them move up the rank? How many of them got stuck? And how many of them got mired at zombie funds? How many of them eventually left and go to corp?
Are you kidding me right now?
OP's question is a legit one, but few have addressed it in this thread.
People don't exactly have that kinda data lying around bro.
IB > HF > ??? (Originally Posted: 11/01/2006)
what would be the logical next step if you left IB to get into HF, but didn't like it, or made enough money and moving on?
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