What level of math is ideal for investment banking?

You want to be in S&T in a derivatives group. Your skills would be great for structuring or doing analytics. And, if you ever have an itch for trading, it'd be an easy jump over to the desk.

Thanks for your advice. Actually I've been studying hedge funds and trading for a while and I think that might be the right direction for me. Just to say, I play poker and chess a LOT so you can understand my mindset. My dream job would be solving math problems/playing poker/playing chess/similar. Some trading positions would be similar to doing all of these things. Problem is that hedge funds don't advertise... need to find some.

You would probably be a quant for a desk. CDO's are for you.

I don't play poker but I used to play chess well. Almost made it professional (I guess almost doesn't count :-))

Check out wilmott.com and nuclearphynance.com; they are awesome resources. There are people at wilmott.com who could actually help you.

Aaron Brown also posts there! A Stanford guy who's with GS, he's a serious poker player and has authored "The Poker Face of Wall Street." (I haven't read it yet so can't say much.)

Hope it helps! Good luck!

you dont even need calculus -- that doesn't mean recruiters don't like to see someone that is comfortable around numbers and did well in their math courses.

on the job you will be adding, subtracting, multiplying and dividing... nobody will force to derive black-scholes.

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Nothing beyond alegbra, if that.

addition, subtraction, multiplication and division

Calculus is overkill for 99% of IB and 90% of S&T, unless you're pricing and trading derivatives or doing equity microstructure. Some people in a DCM solutions group are quants and do some interest rate modeling which varies in sophistication- SocGen, BNP, RBS and Banca IMI Milan are probably the most research oriented.

If you have addition/subtraction/multiplication and division locked up, you are most likely good to go. That said, to 2nd what others have said, it definitely doesn't hurt to show your capacity for more advanced forms of math and a general comfort with numbers. Will you need higher level math, probably not, but it won't hurt you either. Know the basis and you'll be fine.

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This is bullshit. I use Black-Scholes on a daily basis, and derive it every morning just to make sure it hasn't changed. You're going to need to know multi-variable differential stochastic linear matrix algebra just at a minimum. If you take more than 30 seconds to prove game theory you will not make it through a summer at any regional boutique, much less a bulge bracket.

Knowing excel is more impt than adding and subtracting. Its ok if you forgot calculus, but if your MD is asking you to calculate some hardcore equation and you don't know what investopedia is, then you may have a problem.

what about recruiting wise?

on the job, more than calc is probably not needed but does that mean recruiting wise, people dont care either?

If by your question you mean will you be asked any differentiate or integrate any multi-variable equations, the answer is probably not. Considering most bankers probably wouldn't know/remember how to do it anyway, I doubt they would ask you to break out the integration by parts methodology. For math majors, brain teasers are far more common than anyu hardcore calc problems.

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by my question i mean, does it look favorable to have listed courses at the multivariable calc level and higher on your "related coursework" section compared to a resume without them or is the difference negligible and i would be fine just focusing on finance and accounting without these math courses?

thank you

It wouldn't hurt to have an advanced math course or two on your resume depending on what else you've taken. You don't want to list a dozen courses on your resume as "relevant coursework," so if you have some intermediate and advanced accounting and some valuation finance courses, you may not need to list math, however, in lieu of those, it wouldn't hurt to have an advanced math course or two. The benefit will probably be marginal, but hey, if you've got a bit of room, and a high GPA, it doesn't hurt to show that you've taken multivariable or ordinary differential equations.

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IBD is at-most 6th grade-level math. It's arithmetic so it's not like being a math major will help you excel at banking.

That said, if you're looking to enter banking, majors that are looked upon favorably are econ/physics/math/stats other than engineering/business.

If you're looking to head to a sector where you actually do math beyond a 6th grade level, consider trading/HF. Banking is basic excel functions.

Risk Management. You'd get killed in quant trading if you're not a developer in disguise as well.

The general feedback I've gotten so far is hedge funds, quantitative analytics, & risk management. Macro, how much a component of quantitative analysis is software developing?

jisaac- when you come up with an idea, you have to put that idea into practice in order to trade it.

And that means writing code.

For some folks, it's simple R or python scripts.

For other folks, it can be gigantic distributed enterprise systems written in java.

For others, it can be optimizing C++ code or sometimes working with hardware now to hit the exchange faster.

It's a continuum. Some folks' primary job responsibilities are to write code; some folks' primary job responsibilities are to build models. But from the four groups I've worked with in various parts of quantland, everyone has to code and everyone has to understand calculus, probability, and linear algebra to do their jobs well.

IlliniProgrammerIt's a continuum. Some folks' primary job responsibilities are to write code; some folks' primary job responsibilities are to build models. But from the four groups I've worked with in various parts of quantland, everyone has to code and everyone has to understand calculus, probability, and linear algebra to do their jobs well.

Pretty much sums it up. I wouldn't call myself a quant at this point as I've moved away from programming my own stuff in general, but I can still hack through R/Python/Matlab code when I need to and it does come up sometimes.

There are some things that are just much easier to model in a programming language than they would be in excel and VBA is frustrating (when it is even a feasible solution). Being able to code makes me a bit more of a utility player.

My background is math and, while I can code, I know it's not my value add in my team. As a result, I don't try and compete in "pure" quant trading strategies that are almost all programming. On the other hand, if we're looking at something where value is hard to measure or there's some relatively complicated statistical component to an analysis, I can make and do make contributions the guys writing algos full time don't see.

A high school junior, are you kidding me? What the hell are you doing here. Go have fun, young fella.

But back to your question, take accounting will definitely give you a leg up no matter where you go. Nobody likes math.

Patel,

You're obviously a pretty driven, hard-working and ambitious kid. Do me a favor and reward yourself for all your hard work. Find a way to get your hands on a 30 and sit back and throw down a few cold ones with your pals. Better yet--go to the next high school banger and get shitfaced this weekend. On Monday everyone will be talking about how the smart kid Patel showed up and got hammered.

More importantly, however, I recommend adding accounting to your schedule on Monday. It will be dry and boring at the high school level, but beefing up your accounting is essential.

As for AP Stats, it's a pretty easy class and useful in IB. With that said, challenging yourself by taking multi isn't a bad idea. If you have the capacity to handle multi, you can handle any subject out there.

Keep an open mind, though. Your plans could very well change over the course of the next few weeks, months. It's admirable that you have this career path tentatively mapped out, but definitely deviate from your comfort zone and explore what's out there.

Lastly, go to the next high school banger at all costs. You won't regret it trust me.

Obviously you need to solve for the various components of the Riemann tensor for a spacetime metric given to you on the spot during the first round interview to even have a shot at this.

I did this my senior year of high school. Best thing was the credits transferred to the university I'm at now. More credits coming in means more room in the schedule for rocks for jocks and underwater basketweaving. And more of those classes in the schedule means a higher GPA while still having ample time to drink my face off three days a week.

Long story short, take the class if the credits transfer. If not repeat the steps of ravens first paragraph on multiple occasions.

Dude your math is too advance for regular ole IBD. Do all Americans a favor and kick ass doing something even more useful to society!

Edit: If you're not American, then at least do whatever country your from the favor.

The last math class I took was calc AB back in junior year of high school.

I'm a senior now who signed with an EB. You literally have zero use in multi variable calculus. Take stat or better yet, don't take either unless you actually like math

Come on man....seriously.

Depends which job -- for IBD you won't need much math, aside from the basic four operations, but for S&T you'll need a lot more math.

Sorry, for IBD.

Can you type "=89*25"?

At some point you can't be a complete idiot and it helps to have a good grasp of basic financial concepts relating to the job but in your day to day interactions, no one is going to need you to multiply numbers in your head.

It's a quantitative job where its important to be able to work with numbers and understand the outputs and if they make sense but it's not difficult because the math is hard by any means.