What strategies do (prop) traders use

AniraX's picture
Rank: Monkey | 46

Hi everyone,

I know a little bit about trading strategies e.g. using Momentum. But what do the prop traders use? Is it basically the same just more sophisticated?
And how do floor traders place their trades? do they use any strategy or do they just pass through the trades?

Thanks

Anira

Comments (80)

Sep 3, 2009

all your prop trading questions can be answered at http://www.timothysykes.com/ its where they go to master their strategies.

Please note I am not a prop trader and my advice is possibly less than 100% accurate

Sep 3, 2009

Do you really think anyone divulge this information so easily?

Sep 3, 2009
artmonkey:

Do you really think anyone divulge this information so easily?

It's hardly like he asked for a strategy or anything proprietary. I don't work in prop trading, so can't answer the questions, but for anyone who does or did, I don't think answering them would be a major burden.

Sep 6, 2009
artmonkey:

Do you really think anyone divulge this information so easily?

Thanks for your answers and the link.

Of corse I am not hoping for someone explaining ther strategy in detail.

I know some books wirtten for private day traders like e.g. "High Probability Trading Strategies" by Robert C. Miner and am just wondering how similar that is to the prop trading strategies used by the pros. Or do they use a totally different approach?

Cheers

Anira

Sep 6, 2009

There really is no "set" prop trading strategy. You could ask 1000 different traders this question you would get 1000 different answers. I know that doesn't really answer your question, but it is the truth.

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Sep 6, 2009
tradecode:

Do they have advanced strategies created by financial engineers, PhDs?

Yup, James Simons' Rentech for example is manned mostly by mathematicians, statisticians, physicists, and very few (if any) finance professionals.

People like Coldplay and voted for the Nazis, you can't trust people Jeremy

Sep 6, 2009

lever up, short on the run treasuries, and go long in off the run. guaranteed profit.

Control your own destiny, or someone else will.

Sep 6, 2009

aleayers apparently wants you do go bankrupt overnight. Shorting treasuries right now... recipe to be done trading for good in short time considering the massive costs to short FI products and the fact this bubble could expand another 3/6/12 shit 24 months.

Most prop shops are market makers of some kind, so they are aiming buy on the bid and sell on the ask or somehow otherwise trade for 'edge' (buying below the theoretical value and selling above the theoretical value). There are some that are pure algo shops or doing some sort of statistical arbitrage or pairs trading, but it is less common on the whole and isn't always as successful in the long run (where-as in market making, you always have at least a real edge in buying/selling).

It will be difficult for you to implement many of the strategies even from non-MM firms because of the relative frequency of trades that will eat away at your profits and and you won't have the scale or be able to trade large enough sizes to make it significantly profitable at this point.

How frequently does your algo trade right now and in what products?

Sep 6, 2009

i was joking, ask LTCM how that worked out

Control your own destiny, or someone else will.

Sep 6, 2009

Hi,

thanks for your answer Jerome!

My computers trade FX on an hourly timeframe. Average trade length is 4.8 hours at this moment. Trading 9 pairs. Max positions 4. Some raw signals are blocked or boosted (% position based on risk chances) because of AI neural nets programmed in JAVA. However, I feel as if my strategy is still very simple when I read about financial algos on some professional quant forums. It remains a mystery I guess.

Sep 6, 2009

How often are you retraining your neural network or is there some sort of exponential weighting of recent tick data? There are various automated trading championships and NN algos seem to win many of them and then completely blow up, in addition to already having massive drawdowns relative to other algos.

Sep 6, 2009

Neural nets are retrained every 3 weeks, not for a specific reason but have been doing that automatically the last year. Retraining does make a difference as older nets (3 month) perform less good on recent data (last week). There is no weighting in data recency as I want to keep the whole system as general and robust as possible (less flexible and fitted). Neural nets add to CAR to some extend but do improve the win% by a couple % for ease of trading.

Could you name some of the championships? I'd like to take a look at that...

Sep 6, 2009

There are a lot of MT4 competitions, just do a google search. Some universities are sponsoring them now, too.

Neiderhoffer had an interesting guest blurb on his blog about someone talking about extremely simple (almost bafflingly simple) strategies such as the one you are mentioning and how they frequently outperform more complex strategies in the medium and long-term and with significantly less volatility. Sometimes it makes you wonder whether or not a lot of the various HF algos (talking about non-MM that is) that are being so highly sought after will prove to be worth it overall in the long run.

Sep 6, 2009

I don't know what you're asking exactly, im assuming you mean invest not investigate?

Sep 6, 2009

excellent question

Sep 6, 2009

what group for interview?

prop trading firm? bank s&t? hf?

Sep 6, 2009

Thanks for the reply. It's a bank's S&T. Does it make any difference though? Would you mind to explain?

Sep 6, 2009

The approach you take to identify trading opportunities and implementation of that approach.

If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses - Henry Ford

Sep 6, 2009

yea many different trading strategies for many different types of institutions and groups. Each division of a bank may emplore different strategies.... high frequency, algorithmically driven strategies, market making etc....I guess it really depends on what group (ie equities, derivs, FICC)

but more generally speaking a trading strategy depends on entry/exit criteria, risk/reward, time etc

Sep 6, 2009

Wah, is there a way to learn more about this from books?

Sep 6, 2009

Trading strategy is a blanket term and there are literally as many of them as their are people trading. There are general terms, or categories of strategies but there are nuanced differences from one person to another.

If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses - Henry Ford

Sep 6, 2009

As said, trading strategy is a very broad term.

You wont really learn about trading strategies from books. You can learn about products, and then take the next step further and think about a strategy.

Sep 6, 2009

nobody? tl;dr? lol

Sep 6, 2009

Have you ever seems how precious natural resources are protected, especially in 3 world countries? Just move on. This is what people mean when they say folks waste time walking through all the complicated details and never do a sanity, common sense check. In other words, your idea is idiotic... Stop watching Wall Street and emulating Charlie Sheen.

Sep 6, 2009

So you want to do recon on Third World oil and gas operations to gain an edge in publicly traded oil and companies companies with substantial operations in the Third World? If so, you've made quite a few assumptions about the equity markets in those countries that you may wish to revisit. Do you really think spying on the drilling operation will give you an edge over a Nigerian oil company exec's cronies?

Sep 6, 2009

Well first of all the companies would be listed on North American exchanges. The oil companies I'm talking about are the ones like NFK that are based in NA but operate abroad. NFK is based in Calgary and trades on the TSX.

I don't see how it's so idiotic. Read up on oil field scouting companies, spying on drilling operations is their entire business. My idea is to do just that, but instead of staking out the entire operation to get information like depths, mud type, formation top etc., all I need to know is whether or not the well hit oil. And instead of selling this information to other oil companies, I use it as a trading strategy.

I know it's far fetched, I have that in my title. I'm looking for someone to explain to me exactly why it won't work.

Sep 6, 2009

investopedia.com

Sep 6, 2009

http://www.investopedia.com/
Great tutorials with step-by-step explanations illustrated with real examples.

Try opening an online trading account for real-time simulators.

The HBS guys have MAD SWAGGER. They frequently wear their class jackets to boston bars, strutting and acting like they own the joint. They just ooze success, confidence, swagger, basically attributes of alpha males.

Sep 6, 2009

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Sep 6, 2009
  • Go to freestockcharts.com
  • Set it up so you can view 6 tickers (use 5 or 10 minutes... for several days)
  • Put SPY for one chart and then a sector ETF and 4 individual companies (say USO (actual oil etf)... and then XOM, COP, CVX, MRO)
  • See how they correlate with one another.... study how the higher betas have more dramatic price moves... etc.
  • You can do macro study with a set up such as SPY, USO, GLD, TLT, UUP, VXX
  • Download end of day prices in from Google Finance... do statistical tests on their performance.
  • Go to finviz.com... do fundamental research... create screeners... ignore most TA (except for relative strength, 52-week high/low, momentum).
Sep 6, 2009

dont most traders trade off of technicals?

Sep 6, 2009

my boss told me about his experiences as a options trader in the 1980s: truly, the glory days before the quants started piling in en masse to find alpha in the 10th decimal point. back then, if they liked something, they bought calls. if they didn't like it, they bought puts.

i don't know of any shop that seriously trades that way anymore. i was chatting with an optiver guy, and their whole mentality toward recruiting is different now. quick mental math = out. programming/algo skills = in.

Sep 6, 2009

I agree with this. I've been interviewing with multiple prop shops in Chicago, and they are all trying to get into the speed game. Even firms like optiver, infinium, IMC, that did "pure" trading are now trying to be the next getco/jump. If you're not a programmer/latency expert, then you probably should consider a different industry altogether because there is very little room for you otherwise.

Sep 6, 2009

That's odd. All I hear is the exact opposite. High-frequency and algo shops are cannibalizing themselves. The speed game is oversaturated and all the players are fighting over dwindling market volumes.

I don't even think this is just the inside view either - pretty sure the NYT and WSJ have written up a bunch of articles on how with the low volume and increased competition, the firms are going out of business.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/07/business/stock-t...
Plus a bunch of the exchanges have recently proposed regulation to the SEC to curb speed shops. Very dangerous spot to be in right now.

Sep 6, 2009
lbreitst:

That's odd. All I hear is the exact opposite. High-frequency and algo shops are cannibalizing themselves. The speed game is oversaturated and all the players are fighting over dwindling market volumes.

I don't even think this is just the inside view either - pretty sure the NYT and WSJ have written up a bunch of articles on how with the low volume and increased competition, the firms are going out of business.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/07/business/stock-t...
Plus a bunch of the exchanges have recently proposed regulation to the SEC to curb speed shops. Very dangerous spot to be in right now.

Oh, I agree whole heartedly that this space is becoming tougher to make a profit in. It's way oversaturated, and all the players pretty much have the same technology. After all, how much faster can you go in the latency game?

Even shops like getco/jump are not doing as well as previous years. A number of employees have left those firms due to lower bonus payouts. A bunch of guys at my previous firm have actually joined getco/jump recently to fill those vacant spots.

But the point remains that at least in Chicago, that's the game that every prop shop wants to be in. At pretty much every interview I've had, they cared more about my knowledge of systems, latency, order routing, than my knowledge and experience in equity markets, trading, arbitrage, hedging, etc.

Sep 6, 2009

the markets were never fully driven by economics but the information arbitrage from sovereign policy actions is a ridiculously disproportionate part of what drives markets now (all the more since volumes are at historical lows and joe sixpack is leaving and taking his marbles with him). HFT market-neutral strategies are the future, and even in that subset the prop side is getting smashed.

brady, which shops still do discretionary prop (non-HFT)?

i work in an HFT MM.

Sep 6, 2009

so are the interviews basically all programming based now? If you have no programming skills, where do you go in trading?

Sep 6, 2009
inthe213:

so are the interviews basically all programming based now? If you have no programming skills, where do you go in trading?

They didn't ask me programming questions since i wasn't interviewing for a programmer/developer role. But they did care about how comfortable i was with technology, how much i knew about latency/systems/order routing/price feed, and tried to get a general sense of how scalable and "fast" my group's strategy was. We actually did mid-frequency "grey-box" algo trading, so it wasn't a good fit for most of these prop shops.

Sep 6, 2009

lots of prop shops have had their earnings either clipped hard by the algos (they weren't algos and the computers beat them at their own game), or went into the algo game, had their costs pushed up so high that they had to cut back on costs (read employees) significantly, to keep up.

Lots of respectable (but not top end) shops have suffered greatly. Starting to consider other career options now.

T

Sep 6, 2009
Derivatives:

Based on talking to people at numerous prop trading firms, it seems like every shop is trying to compete in the same game: ultra high-freqency market making. There is almost no discretionary trading or alpha research of any sort. Even "traditional" firms are beefing up their technological capacities in order to reduce their latency and get in on the speed game.

Is there any room for actual traders anymore, or is this what prop trading will look like indefinitely?

To answer your question, the opportunities are very few and far between in equity and equity options. If you want to get skin in that game then you have to take way more risk than you would have 10 years ago. Its still possible, but not as attractive.

There are still compelling opportunities in FICC trading and more niche areas like specific emerging markets. However, conventional wisdom says that eventually all markets will have algos making the markets and it is just a matter of time. Therefore, you should consider learning about some niche areas that still have opportunities, but take some time to learn some basic programming as well so that you do not become a dinosaur.

Sep 6, 2009

I have to think the increase in prop shops is due to the elephants leaving the game (banks).

Sep 6, 2009

Would pursuing physical trading as opposed to paper trading be a good idea, given the current trend in the industry? There will always be demand for physical traders, right?

Sep 6, 2009

Trading is dying, investing is born again. Monthly additions to your PA to buy indexes and bonds. $1,000 to start with and a very conservative $10,000 a year in additions at a ~8% annual interest rate = ~$500,000 in 20 years. Think about it.

Sep 6, 2009

Do a search on google and this website.

Prop desks are nothing but an internal HF for the bank
.
Finance major is fine.

You usually trade one or a few instruments because that is what your have become good at.

Can follow any strategy to make money (merger arb, global macro, distressed, ect), but you will only follow one.

Being more quantitative depends on the product and strategy.

Sep 6, 2009

Yea it really depends on trader to trader and what group they are in. Ie GS Principal Funding and Investment does something different than GS SSG. They are still subject to risk limits tho, so they arent free to do what they want.

http://convertyourbond.com Free market commentary and trading insights to help with interviews

Sep 6, 2009

I'm a prop trader at a BB firm; I've traded several different instruments.

I started on Oboes about 5 years ago, I'm now on the Violins desk. At my firm (Think UBS, BarCap, CS) the woodwinds are a little less respected than the strings, though that's not the same at every bank (usually just the European ones).

I actually found that a Music major was best; either performance or composition....it doesn't really matter, just depends on the bank.

Sep 6, 2009

^^^^^^LOL

Sep 6, 2009

Each prop trader has a mandate as far as markets, instruments, VaR limits etc. Generally, if a trader identifies an opportunity in another market, they can push seniors to have risk limits extended, but that is discretionary. I know of commodities prop traders who punt around in treasury markets, equities traders who make punts on bond options and fixed income prop traders who take on oil futures positons.. Generally, a prop trader in XYZ division will run a book that is highly concentrated in XYZ, probably deriving 80-90% of PnL from that specific market. It's all very discretionary and very much dependent on your seniority and profitability. 'Prop traders' generally follow discretionary, directional strategies wheras you have a defined group that handles quant/RV strategies as that sort of work requires a more structured/mathematical approach. Frequency very much dependent on strategy and again, discretion. Have known prop traders who take on an exotic option position and keep them for 9 months, wheras others who have traded several hundred lots of copper/gold in and out within the day.

Finally, as regards to degree - Physics, maths, finance, economics... even history/politics. The toughest group to get into straight out of college are the macro prop groups as you could say they require the 'ultimate' skill of a trader which is developed via significant apprenticeship on a flow desk, wheras have seen exceptional maths/physics grads make it straight into quant prop groups on the basis of their mathematical knowledge. Or finance/econ grads with numerous internships in IBD make it into equity/credit prop groups right out of undergrad as the intiial work load is typically valuation/modeling stuff. Pick the route depending on your ultimate strategy preference.

Sep 6, 2009
Megashite Trader:

Each prop trader has a mandate as far as markets, instruments, VaR limits etc. Generally, if a trader identifies an opportunity in another market, they can push seniors to have risk limits extended, but that is discretionary. I know of commodities prop traders who punt around in treasury markets, equities traders who make punts on bond options and fixed income prop traders who take on oil futures positons.. Generally, a prop trader in XYZ division will run a book that is highly concentrated in XYZ, probably deriving 80-90% of PnL from that specific market. It's all very discretionary and very much dependent on your seniority and profitability. 'Prop traders' generally follow discretionary, directional strategies wheras you have a defined group that handles quant/RV strategies as that sort of work requires a more structured/mathematical approach. Frequency very much dependent on strategy and again, discretion. Have known prop traders who take on an exotic option position and keep them for 9 months, wheras others who have traded several hundred lots of copper/gold in and out within the day.

Finally, as regards to degree - Physics, maths, finance, economics... even history/politics. The toughest group to get into straight out of college are the macro prop groups as you could say they require the 'ultimate' skill of a trader which is developed via significant apprenticeship on a flow desk, wheras have seen exceptional maths/physics grads make it straight into quant prop groups on the basis of their mathematical knowledge. Or finance/econ grads with numerous internships in IBD make it into equity/credit prop groups right out of undergrad as the intiial work load is typically valuation/modeling stuff. Pick the route depending on your ultimate strategy preference.

I thought analysts straight out of college get placed in various desks as part of their rotation and then placed into a certain product. Prop desks are reserved for those with experience and have proven themselves.

Sep 6, 2009

"Yea it really depends on trader to trader and what group they are in. Ie GS Principal Funding and Investment does something different than GS SSG. They are still subject to risk limits tho, so they arent free to do what they want."

everyone is subject to some form of risk limit, b/c capital isn't unlimited...dont think that qualifies as not being free to do what you want.

liked your site, though i disagree with your curve view. but nice write ups.

Sep 6, 2009

Being "good" is a mixture of talent and experience (and luck). I assume you have no experience? So why would you expect to go onto a prop, or any other desk, for that matter?

and yes you can wind up doing things you don't want to do. my very first desk was something I was COMPLETELY uninterested in. but I sucked it up, stuck it out, and got a decent amount out of it. still hated it a lot of the time.

Sep 6, 2009

Yes, I have no experience in trading. I only have PE experience(internship level, that is),and considering trying out the trading route. So did you end up switching to a desk you actually wanted?

Sep 6, 2009

"Yes, I have no experience in trading. I only have PE experience(internship level, that is),and considering trying out the trading route. So did you end up switching to a desk you actually wanted?"

Yes...hence i'm still here. now way would I have stuck around this long doing something I didnt like.

Sep 6, 2009

im rotating on a credit (IG + HY) prop desk right now, authorized to deal with equity and equity derivatives as well but dont usually do it. how did i get on the rotation? just luck. all but 1 of the traders have 10+ years of experience in credit research, some 15-20 years. Very senior group (youngest guy is vp). We mostly go long/short on corp bond and CDS and manange a pretty huge book. Traders trade whatever sectors they have expertise in. So the guy who did credit research in industrials will trade indistrials, auto, auto parts, and etc.

in term of the work, it's all about getting information (earning calls, industry expert/consults), researching (reading vast amount of research) and keeping track of the market. After all, credit trading is about going with your gut feeling on a relative value basis. Not a very quantitative discipline (unless you consider distressed debt, which you wanna model out cash flows and stuff).

I think there's WAY too much ethusiasm of doing prop trading at an investment bank out of undergrad. Flow trading is a great start to a trading career, because it teaches you how things actually trade in the market vs. how things should trade theoretically. And no, mostly likely you wont be placed into cash equity (nothing wrong with that), there are SO many flow desks, FX spot, fx options, fx exotics, IG credit, HY credit, distressed credit, natural gas, oil spot, oil option, agrilculture, metal, swaps, swaptions, treasuries, Fi exotics, emerging market, ABS, RMBS, CMBS, equity derivatives, etc etc. A lot of these products are very exciting and quantitative (if that's your thing).

i've talked to people in GS equity prop and distressed prop as well, if you want to go into prop trading out of undergrad, be prepared to be a master in research, and don't expect everything to be quantitative. A lot of it is very qualitative.

Sep 6, 2009

thanks, that was insightful. so prop trading is actually quite similar to how PE works? Do the people in those desks have flow-trading backgrounds, or more IBD/ER ?

Sep 6, 2009

How the fuck did you get that from what he said? PE is one the other end of the spectrum => humongously illiquid very long term assets with perhaps active management

barkatthemoon:

thanks, that was insightful. so prop trading is actually quite similar to how PE works? Do the people in those desks have flow-trading backgrounds, or more IBD/ER ?

Sep 6, 2009

PE is all modeling, negotiating deals, and trying to find underpriced value in a company - it is investing, therefore it attracts primarily bankers. Untilted was smart to touch on the difference between trading in theory and how trading actually works - what separates trading from investing (any kind of trading - prop or flow) is that liquidity becomes a major factor - it is the prime factor in flow, and a close second to research in prop. Gauging market depth is a skill that really can't be taught in a classroom (especially when all biz school profs scorn technicals) - you need actual experience.

PE is therefore a completely different route than trading. Most of the prop traders I've known made the reverse transition from HF to banks; a few of them came from flow - but untilted was right - most of them who came up in banks have backgrounds in research. Prop groups vary widely, and depending on how well they're doing or what strategies they want to employ, they may grab an analyst or two out of an incoming class, but I think you learn a lot more in flow. On a lot of flow credit desks, incoming analysts are often put with the desk researchers for the first few months on the job.

Sep 6, 2009

WallStWalrus, that's a great post. I especially agree with the statement below:

"liquidity becomes a major factor - it is the prime factor in flow, and a close second to research in prop. Gauging market depth is a skill that really can't be taught in a classroom (especially when all biz school profs scorn technicals) - you need actual experience."

The leader of my group actually came from flow trading background. He's not really in charge of any particular industry, rather a macro guy. A lot of these guys switch around from one bank's prop desk to hedge fund, then back to bank's prop desk.

BTW, technical analysis matters a lot on Wall St, despite what your professors say. There's actually a "CFA" for technical analysis, if you want to learn it properly.

Sep 6, 2009

To add on to credit prop:

other prop activities that I know of in the bank i'm at:

Mortgage prop: it hires out of undergrads, but the team has gotten a lot smaller.

merger arb: everyone has previous corp. finance (either M&A or LevFin) experience. Doesn't take interns as it takes a lot of effort to train.

equity stat arb: just one guy coding away

interest rate stat arb: one programmer. All these programs do is to generate buy/sell signals based on technicals (such as mean reversion, momentum) and fundamentals.

Special situation group: just a fancy name for distressed debt. 2/3 of the team was stolen from a hedge fund. Doesn't take interns.

delta 1 equity index futures arb: huge emphasis on IT and since you can hedge all the risk except dividends, it's really just risk arb betting on dividends

A lot of non prop desks actually do a LOT of prop trading and not much market making at all, like structured credit (not really a market to make), fixed income exotics (half and half), emerging market rates (half and half), FX spot (majority), agriculture commodities, etc.

Sep 6, 2009

Bob Rubin got hired into it after working a couple years in biglaw, but I doubt that's the path to follow...

"Categorical Imperative: If I cannot look at my mother or my wife in the eyes and explain it, I won't do it" - Some British MD.

Sep 6, 2009

The answer to all of this is that you are the smartest. Prop trading groups look at you, you do not tend to look at them unless you are in an extremely good position. You must be the absolute top of your analyst class, no way else.

Sep 6, 2009

For someone with fundamental equity research background at buyside Asset Management houses, what type of prop trading desks should he/she be applying to? And secondly, which BBs have such equity-related prop desk in Asia (say Hong Kong or Singapore)?

In terms of skillset wise, say buyside analysts are only familiar with company financials and traditional valuations etc....what additional skills would be required in order to make the switch to prop trading? Would it be technicals? Thanks.

Sep 6, 2009

prop desks usually get their pick of the litter, but I don't think prop traders are inherently 'better' or 'smarter' than flow. a good flow trader might not be good at prop and vice-versa; you aren't necessarily in different pay grades either. i've seen flow desks take in great bonus pools and prop desks get shit - it's all about performance.

what is important to remember is that 'prop' can apply to hundreds of different strategies, each of which demands a different skill set and talent. as i mentioned before, what defines trading (any kind) is the factor of liquidity, so yes, someone with a background in fundamentals will need to learn to read technicals. And by technicals, I don't necessarily mean cryptic chart patterns - more just things like volume, who's holding the big positions, who's looking for a position, where you think limit orders might be placed, what slippage has been like, etc.

from what little I know about merger arb, it's about discerning relative value based on the probability that the deal goes through. An intricate understanding of the process and applicable laws would be as inherently important as knowing how the markets for different tranches would react - seems like a background in m&a or law would be ideal. anyone with actual experience care to comment?

Sep 6, 2009

I'll be damned....this is probably the best thread I've seen on these boards in a long time....a newbie could actually learn something here...nice job...

Sep 6, 2009

"but I don't think prop traders are inherently 'better' or 'smarter' than flow. a good flow trader might not be good at prop and vice-versa; you aren't necessarily in different pay grades either"

again, i can't agree more. these two things require very different skill sets. i used to be the guy who asks stupid questions like "how many years of flow trading do you have to do until you can do prop trading?" The answer is zero if you've got the skill set and infinity if you lack it. meanwhile you are be a superstar at flow trading and making big bucks.

Sep 6, 2009
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Sep 6, 2009
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"Oh the ladies ever tell you that you look like a fucking optical illusion" - Frank Slaughtery 25th Hour.

Sep 6, 2009