When will crypto deniers grow up and educate themselves?

To be clear, I’m not talking about all skeptics. Some people understand blockchain technology, yet fail to see the destructive force of a communist institution (central bank) that wields monopolistic power over the money supply. 

Rather I’m talking about the “flat earthers” of the crypto debate—those who keep recycling the same utterly idiotic arguments from 2012 like “Bitcoin has no intrinsic value.”

We would not find it necessary to rebut flat earthers, because in doing so we grant them undue credibility. They are not entitled to our time. So why do we treat Luddite crypto deniers any differently?

Just as is the case with subscribers to any outdated and backwards belief system (race science, religion, etc.), crypto deniers will eventually fade away as they perish from old age. But when will it finally no longer be socially acceptable to be voluntarily uninformed on blockchain technology?

 

that’s how I feel about NFTs… before I was flipping NFTs I was flipping yeezys. Also as someone who has been into NFTs for a year and made some decent $… my advice is to stay tf away.. some of them have risen to cultural significance (BAYC) but 99% of them are scams on top of scams on top of scams and headed to zero 

 

Cryptos and NFTs became so popular that I also invested some funds in crypto which I was unlucky to have done that on fake Ads platform where I lost 45k . The time came to withdraw and I was asked to deposit 20% of the money before I could withdraw< this immediately made me realized It was a scam. 

I happened to make some research on how to recover lost funds and all fingers pointed to using a hacker for hire service. I ended up finding on deep web Sniffingnose ATrepairman DOTcom. I was asked to provide the Trans ID and the hash to certify that I truly made the transaction. it took roughly 48 hours for the recovery process to be completed. The site was later shut down with DDos which I absolutely paid for that to happen. This is exactly when I knew what DDos was as the hckers had to explain exactly what was done.

For as long as I know, I am never getting into crypto anymore as this was an eye opener.

 

Yes...Cryptos and NFTs became so popular that I also invested some funds in crypto where I lost 14k, but letter I got even more than lost plus invested. that's why i'm still doing it

 

Intern in IB - Gen

Ah yes, the currency nobody wants to actually use because they believe it will keep rising in value. 

Edit: okay sure. Downvote me but upvote the MD who says the same thing.

The funny thing to me is if you're holding a currency expecting it to massively fluctuate in value, you're essentially banking on it being worthless as an actual currency because the entire point of currency is to hold stable value. You can't use it in any type of real business arrangement without directly pegging it to an actual currency then just paying it out in crypto to be cute.

 

Yeah, this is the problem with Japan and the Yen. The Japanese Central Bank is having a shitty time because the Yen has trended deflationary since the 1990s. 

The vast majority of crypto holders view it as a speculative investment. Only a small, cultish minority actually still believe in the whole 'replacement to central bank' shit 

 

exactly. the flat earth analogy is apt.. shocking that people like charlie munger and bill gates can go on record saying such uninformed things and not be publicly ridiculed for it.

 
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This has the potential to age horribly real quick if you're an active trader of BTC. I see why you hid the username.

Did you notice how the Russia headlines spiked gold and whacked BTC? BTC chart inverses gold since COVID.

Blockchain is valued, BTC is not. Even ETH has more dynamic intrinsic value than BTC. BTC's intrinsic value has no moat. So why BTC, not a CBDC or ETH...

What happens with the Fed develops their own CBDC as their whitepaper explored? Your BTC becomes worthless.

If you're interested, look at the 5 year bearish divergence on BTC. It's only a matter of time before you see 13k or less again...

Best of luck though... BTC = Tulips and I refuse to buy flowers, despite knowing how photosynthesis works.

https://corporatefinanceinstitute.com/resources/knowledge/economics/dut…

 

Better yet, unhide your username and circle back in 6-12 months.If you truly believe in your opinion, atleast own up to it.

1 BTC is more than the median US salary and was over 2x once. Tulip bubble was about 6x average salary.

What happens when the mania dies and greater fool theory dissipates? Can’t be a currency if it behaves like a stock

 

I don’t really have a dog in the fight here, but one thing that helped me understand why BTC actually does have intrinsic value is the fact that it cannot be arbitrarily seized or deleted by a government entity if stored correctly. Any central bank digital currency will lead to the government having complete control and the ability to view all transactions between everyone. That is not something I think many people would be comfortable with if they really think about it. Not only this, but unlike other crypto currencies, no one entity, government or not, controls the network, meaning you cannot be financially deplatformed from BTC. This alone has huge value in regions that have had historically bad experiences trusting state run central banks, i.e. Africa, Middle East, Eastern Europe, LatAm. I’m not saying anything about where the price is headed relative to dollars, but is it going to $0 anytime soon? No. And if you are somewhat excited about a central bank digital currency I ask you to please question why China is one of the first ones attempting to implement one and why they have outright banned BTC? Pretty obvious why.

 

There is no moat. The point is that the technology is immensely valuable, but nothing distinguishes BTC from any other crypto other than the cult following.

ETH is more dynamic for a transaction network, yet it’s 1/2 the market cap of BTC.

Clarifying my comment - “i believe a moat is necessary to hold significant intrinsic value”.

Your comment is based upon a network that is easily created, hence the thousands or more of cryptos in existence. Hence the tech is valuable, not the coin itself

 
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Dude stfu Bitcoin is a stupid Ponzi scheme and I will be so happy when it all goes to shit 

 

Again this is like a “they live” moment without needing glasses. The fact that so many people either don’t immediately recognize that bitcoin is a Ponzi or just keep their mouth shut and speculate/shill for it speaks to both the financial illiteracy of society but also the speculative reptilian brain that many people possess. The fact that people who work at financial institutions, regulators, and the press don’t universally condemn it shows the moral bankruptcy of these institutions. 

 

I don't really think people are complete deniers (even if they say it like they straight up deny the existence of crypto). I think people just don't really agree with the hype. Especially when the people who push it and pump it up tend to be younger people who either have no financial experience or large whales who are pumping and dumping causing extremely volatile price changes. The only advantage of crypto in my opinion over cash is the ability to avoid government control and taxation. Also being able to travel internationally and not have to get scammed by currency exchange counters is nice as well. Crypto has its place in society, but I don't see a reason for it to completely replace regular cash currency. Especially since governments are starting to catch onto crypto and either regulate them to the point where you can't hide money anymore or to the point where it is banned (like in china). And as far as investments go, crypto is volatile to the point where you might as well invest in the s&p500. Regular currency might fluctuate like 10 cents over the year, whereas bitcoin can lose half its value and if you look at the bitcoin graphs it just looks like the scammers pump it up to crazy peaks and then sell it all off and they have been rinsing and repeating this for many years now. Overall, it's a volatile industry that once it becomes regulated (which it will) the many advantages of crypto over cash will be gone and at that point the only advantage will be avoiding international currency exchange values. There's also so many cryptocurrencies that it's hard to tell which are legit and which are scams (which should never be a problem when deciding which currency to use)

 

Here are my thoughts on some of the things you mentioned: 

- “The only advantage of crypto in my opinion over cash is the ability to avoid government control and taxation”

These are “benefits” which are even more apparent with cash, which is not only anonymous, but also completely untraceable. The real added benefit is that you can store your wealth in something and know for a fact that the central bank can’t print your wealth away. Sure, you could invest in real estate or gold and accomplish the same purpose, but they’re not portable. You can’t pick up and leave with your net worth any time you want.

- “governments are starting to catch onto crypto and either regulate them to the point where you can't hide money anymore or to the point where it is banned (like in china).”

Regulating, or even banning something, doesn’t de-monetize it. No government can ever seize crypto held securely in a hardware device unless they get their hands on your private keys. You can cross a nation border with all of your wealth in your brain.

- “crypto is volatile to the point where you might as well invest in the s&p500.”

So was gold, the only sound money ever.

- “scammers pump it up to crazy peaks and then sell it all off”

Not true of Bitcoin, only the centralized VC-backed alts. 

- “There's also so many cryptocurrencies”

Agreed. Most of them need to go to zero

 

Chinas the only country with sophisticated  enough surveillance infrastructure to ban it (and even so, they can’t completely ban it, the networks are still usable). They just have a much higher level of country than is possible anywhere else. Would not be surprised if there’s a push among the Greta thunberg types to ban BTC mining places in the EU though 

 

Paul Tudor Jones, Stanley Drunkenmiller, Ray Dalio, Chamath Palihapitiya, Tesla- some of the smartest people in the world have allocations to Bitcoin. I feel like calling it worthless/ponzi scheme is just ignorance after it showing growth for over a decade. It’s ultimate success or failure is still tentative but clearly there’s a compelling value proposition for it to have the growth and brand recognition it does

 

these people manage other people's money. if you can attract clients by offering to invest their money in essential oils, and take a cut off of the money under management, won't you invest in essential oils?

and Tesla likes free advertisement, so being associated with bitcoin gives them more hype. plus, there's a big overlap between crypto crowd and EV crowd, so it only makes sense to attract them even more to get their money. Musk himself doesn't hold crypto.

 

You lost me at Chamath Peepeepoopoo. This was the same motherfucker pumping and dumping SPACs a few months ago. Paul Tudor Jones is just trying to keep up with the Joneses. BTC and crypto have become overused buzzwords that don't mean anything. 

The one thing you're forgetting is that there HAS to be MASS adoption for any currency to work. People that own crypto are typically affluent and educated. Even then, the vast majority of holders think it's bullshit, including my friends and I (see FOMO). 

We can't even get everyone to use credit/debit cards that are simple, common, and have been around for literally decades. Paper/physical currency is alive and well. Do you have any idea how many people still use cold hard cash? What about the millions and millions of people that will lose their digital wallet passwords, get hacked, or die without leaving any details behind?

One of friends who works at a prominent multi family RE developer told me a story of someone buying a multi-million condo in BTC (accepted as accommodation to close sale), and the RE developer converted to USD IMMEDIATELY upon close.

When was the last time USD was turned down?

 

The one thing you're forgetting is that there HAS to be MASS adoption for any currency to work.

Yes. And that’s what’s happening this decade. 

People that own crypto are typically affluent and educated. Even then, the vast majority of holders think it's bullshit, including my friends and I (see FOMO). 
 

completely wrong on both fronts 

 

I don’t personally believe in the longevity of crypto, but have no problem with the people speculating. It’s just like energy commodity traders or hedge funds that short or any other type of speculative investing.

But to believe that in the near to medium term it will replace actual currencies? That seems far fetched. People believe in the dollar because of US tax revenues and the faith the US government will honor its debts. Can you imagine if the US told China it won’t honor its debt? It would be WW3.

I mean who out there is most interested in transferring money without any traces? Think about it.

 

That’s an American centric view though. Governments around the world (including US) are devaluing their own currencies and causing inflation. In Venezuelan, Turkey, Nigeria, people already prefer BTC to local currency because of inflation. Another actual use case of crypto is people in those countries having access to USD stablecoins such as USDC USDT DAI etc. 1.4B people live in countries with double or triple digit inflation, protecting their wealth is the use case for them. Property rights to anyone on the globe with a $50 smartphone. Separating the state from money gives so much more power to the individual, states don’t collapse because they’re invaded, they collapse because the government prints too much money. That’s pretty revolutionary 

 

I'm gonna be honest here, as someone who is at best cautiously optimistic about crypto, this is the type of puerile and lowbrow bullshit that is often spewed by crypto evangelists which causes the type of reactions that you're supposedly lamenting. Instead of actually touting the value of crypto: self-custody to protect what is yours as reflected within this week's events where a vengeful and oppressive state sought to financially harm protesters; lack of intermediaries & overall reduced friction (regulatory) as it relates to sending money to practically anyone and anywhere;  this is what you've come up with.

I am always confused and amused by the hostility of evangelists  to "communist central banks" when you clowns should be laying prostrate at the feet of Bernanke, and every Fed Chair thereafter, and be thanking them for distorting markets with sustained low interest rates and QE. Do you really think crypto or any risk asset that has appreciated over the past decade has not benefited from what markets have become - a gamified structure where institutions and retail have no choice but to continually go further along the risk curve and speculate on practically anything?

Pipe down, blockchain technology is nothing new or revolutionary. In its most incipient form, public key cryptography was being used by the GCHQ and NSA for military purposes since the 70s and the concept of electronic/digital cash was being discussed since the late 80s-90s. Actual adoption of blockchain technology outside of crypto has been slow and limited at best because the tech serves a very niche purpose and actual adoption of the tech for most would just be a solution looking for a problem. This is why companies selling enterprise blockchain solutions have basically shuttered their services (see: Microsoft Azure Blockchain last year, IBM before that, JPM selling Quorom to Consensys) There is some potential value in tokenization, DIDs (assuming they can frontrun web 2 companies on this),and payments/asset transfers but these use cases are generally far from being realized. You can add CBDCs as a potential use case but this is not bullish for crypto. Just face it: the current value is mostly in the highly speculative nature of the asset; there is value in a digital casino. 

 

Blockchain technology is revolutionary, because it allows for a trust decentralized network with no central authority with monetary value attached to it. That wasn’t present prior to the introduction of BTC. No state controls the money, no bad actors can fuck with the money, no one can shut down the network or create more. Blockchains allow people who don’t trust each other and bad actors to have access to immutable stores of value and trustless interactions.

 

Blockchain technology and even smart contract technology will continue to have LIGHT value and hopefully grows into more valuable use cases in the next 10 years.

With that said, Bitcoin was created as a GAME by some Japanese people a long time ago. If you like beanie babies and collectible pokemon cards that's fine, but don't pretend it's anything more than that. 

 

It wasn’t created as a game, or created by Japanese people. It was created by satoshi Nakamoto (who is almost certainly an American or Brit based off analysis of their online posting history) and was created in response to dissatisfaction with central banks. When central banks recklessly increase the money supply, inflation becomes rampant, governments start freezing people’s bank accounts without legal jurisdiction (happening right now IN CANADA), this starts to look a lot less like a game and a bandaid solution to a world monetary system. Games don’t reach trillions of dollars in market cap. Games don’t get censored and banned by China. We are fully in the “then they fight you” stage.

 

Do you realize that currency is based on more than central bank actions? Military power, laws/regulations, infrastructure, tax revenues, stability etc. are all factored into a nation's currency. It's why USD is worth more than Zimbabwe's currency (no offense to Zimbabwe, but that hyperinflation though!).

Central banks are not necessarily evil; they regulate the economy (remember that thing that happened in 08-09?) and play a major role in maintaining civility (e.g. anti-money laundering, freezing assets of bad actors, creating debt to fund society, and more). 

One global currency (which is like a participation trophy, because if you want a strong/stable currency, a nation should have to earn it) that no one has control over? No thanks!

 

There’s more countries out there than just the US. If you’re in Zimbabwe or Nigeria or Turkey or Venezuela, crypto allows you to preserve your wealth, both in investing in assets like BTC or USDC. By separating state from money, you remove one of the biggest levers of tyranny over the individual. 

 

Why can't people in the countries you listed just exchange their "wealth" for USD? 

Thanks to the internet, people from all over the world can invest in wealth preservation strategies.

But for you think that people across Africa are gonna whip out their smart phones to transfer BTC between digital wallets (while these same people struggle everyday just to survive), comes across as foolish.

 

This is definitely something that cannot be discussed quickly and without going in depth.

I'm also a bit of a skeptic, but I will say a few things in general which I find interesting: 

-  The rate of acceptance and use of cryptocurrencies is similar (or higher) than the rate of acceptance of the Internet in the late 1990s

- It is expected that somewhat soon the number of people who were exposed to the crypto in one way or another will rise to 1 billion (ie 1/8 of the world's population) (not sure about the exact numbers, but the point matters)

- Crypto space attracts a lot of intellectual capital and a lot of talented developers and innovators work in this field (especially young people)

Fintech, crypto, DeFi, NFTs, web3 etc. - who knows how all this will turn out, but I think it's hard to say that this area will not develop and grow in the next 10 years (this does not mean that every project or every coin will succeed or that is should)

Black Swan theory says that almost all major events and technological breakdowns in history were unexpected. No one expected printing press or imagined future with it 3 years before it was invented. The same is with the internet in general, social networks etc etc. All these things were like surprises that we get used to, but no one, or almost no one, predicted it. My opinion is that it is the same with crypto, it is really hard to predict where this will take us.  Does that mean that all can go to shit - absolutely, but in my opinion we come to far that everything just disappears.

 

I am a crypto enthusiast and I will say Bitcoin does not have any intrinsic value. Its real value was during the early years when it could actually be used by a currency with no oversight. Where the mining could be done by any random dude starting a node on their laptop. Until it got commercialized. Is bitcount really worth $30000+ ? No. All that it is being used for is speculation. You are hoping other people will buy into the hype and the price will go higher. The only thing working in its favor is the halving of its supply. This will lead to FOMO and thus more price increases. Development on the bitcoin network is stagnant and since institutional investors are invested in it their PR is working on labelling it as digital gold. But does that mean i am not taking part in it? Hell no. This is the only asset currently available to the average person to actually make some decent money. It is a new tech with new industry thus flattening the playground for people willing to do the work.

However, I also think cryptocurrency is a misnomer that causes a l