Working in Hong Kong

ibhopeful532:

^

Also, it's insanely scary to see some of the caucasian-Americans studying in Beijing who are completely fluent in Chinese (speaking, reading, and writing). Just learn a bit of Chinese in the next 2-3 years and transfering to HK shouldn't be that difficult (assuming a BB). A caucasian having a moderate mastery of Chinese is considered very impressive (as Chinese is extremely hard to pick-up).

Haha agreed. Puts me to shame every time I run into a cantonese or mandarin fluent caucasian/non-asian. I've got a friend who speaks mandarin fluently, who started learning in high school (... part of the reason is to mack on girls), but decided to further develop out of interest.

For IBD... most firms, no. Not a requirement.

For M&A, it is almost a pre-requisite even though its not really stated. This is based on friends working in BBs there.

How does it exactly work in Hong Kong? When you draft pitch books, I'm assuming that it would be draft in english as I'm assuming not all VP/D/MD's cold read Chinese very well? Then would some other staff translate the pitch into Chinese? Sorry, but I have no idea how the process works over there. Just trying to learn a bit more about the system.

If you want to work on deals from China, you MUST be NATIVE in Chinese. Not the pseudo-"fluent" you put on your resume either, I am talking born and raised in the PRC. Pitchbooks are in Chinese, meetings are conducted in Chinese, and all the correspondence is in Chinese, so how could you survive without it? Additionally, if you've ever had to translate memos and presentations, you know that you can never word for word translate it. You have to understand the very distinct Chinese business culture and essentially rewrite the whole damn thing.

Language is extremely crucial, but if you want to work on deals from Singapore, Thailand, etc. (ex-Japan) then English is the standard.

You do know that in Hong Kong they speak a dialect of Cantonese, while some business is still done in English? Most of mainland China speaks Mandarin, which is a different animal from Cantonese, and has slowly spread to Hong Kong, as well.

Both Cantonese and Mandarin are extremely difficult to "pick up" and require intensive study and skill to acquire mastery.

From my understanding, Hong Kong covers North East Asia, and most of it is China related. If you are working on HK (distinct from mainland China) deals, you can get by with English.

If you are working on mainland China deals, you MUST be very fluent in Mandarin. However, you do not need to be born and raised in the PRC. I know a couple of ethnic Chinese guys from Singapore/HK/Taiwan covering mainland China - they are extremely fluent in Mandarin though.

You certainly do not need to be born and raised in China to work on China deals. Also, there are lots of analysts who cannot read let alone write Chinese proficiently working in HK. They might not be working on China deals though.

But HK has its fair share of IPOs that you won't need to work on China M&As. Did you know China M&A is still very small and HK IPO is massive? It always amazes me why people, at this stage, would want to go into mainland to work on deals!

Thank you all for your feedback. I'm just in the process of considering relocating to HK for work. I speak Cantonese fluently and my Mandarin is decent and I can get by without much trouble on a conversational basis I can read most traditional Chinese characters but my writing is rusty. I must admit that I'm definitely lacking from the perspective of Chinese financial vocab. I suppose it's just a matter of practice and learning the financial vocabs as well as simplified Chinese characters.

Just by reading your feedback above, does it mean that every single M&A professional in HK working on China deals are fluent in Mandarin in every way (speak/read/write)? Are you implying that there are no expats or non-Chinese on any of the deal times?

I'm just saying you won't find many who know zilch about putonghua.

From what I saw, most people who worked on the deals can speak putonghua (not necessarily fluently though). I saw many people who were not fluent and/or did not have the right accent (couldn't bite the words properly). It's what someone else above me called pseudo-fluent.

If you can read/write, it opens up a lot more because you can to do translations and stuff. But then again there were some who spoke it, but certainly cannot read/write to the extent of translating documents (not many though).

Personally I think the read/write factor is a must. You should be able to learn it really quickly though given your background.

Why would you want to go to HK in your first year anyway? Low pay (bad HK dollar), high rent (even after housing allowance), one of the longest hours cities.

Thanks Charlemenge, your feedback has been helpful. I'm actually going to move to HK as a senior associate. I'm from Canada, so just from moving from a 43% tax bracket to a 15 - 16% alone is a good reason to relocate. Also I've always been interested in working in Asia so I thought it's the right time for me to give it a shot. SOunds like you're currently working in HK? Or at least know people working there.

Bad HKD? I thought the HKD was pegged to USD. Oh wait, USD is in the toilet. Got it.

"We are lawyers! We sue people! Occasionally, we get aggressive and garnish wages, but WE DO NOT ABDUCT!" -Boston Legal-

Nope, reading mandarin only becomes a necessity if you are based out of the china offices. The language of BB's in HK is english so dun worry too much.

Knowing a foreign language though does definitely help in the recruiting process here in asia

Having worked in IB in HK for a little bit -- it depends on what you get staffed on.

If you're staffed on gov't-related deals in China, knowing how to read and write Chinese fluently is a huge asset and practically a necessity (a lot of the pitch books, presentations, documentation, etc. will be in Chinese simplified characters, as opposed to the traditional characters used in HK and Taiwan).

However, if you get staffed on tech/software deals in China or most deals in Taiwan, you should be fine with just spoken Mandarin.

If you are planning on working on deals in China or Taiwan (even if you're based in HK), they really expect Mandarin now, since you're competing against Chinese and Taiwanese nationals who went to the same Ivy Leagues as you may have for the same jobs.

As for HK itself, most if not all documentation is in English (prospectuses, legal docs, pitch books, presentations, etc.). Cantonese certainly helps for everyday things (restaurants, stores, taxis, casual banter with admin staff, etc.) but not necessary at all in a work context. Think of Cantonese like Ebonics, Jive, or Spanglish in the US - you may hear it spoken casually in the workplace, but rarely in meetings, conference calls, etc (and to Cantonese speakers out there, I know it's technically a separate dialect but I was just trying to convey its usage through analogy)

For language - spoken Mandarin is not really an "advantage" but is essentially a must if you're staffed with Chinese/Taiwanese clients, especially if you're of Chinese descent (they will let it slide a little if you're white or non-Chinese, but you know how Chinese people can get behind closed doors re: preferring to work with Chinese). And being able to read Chinese is a huge plus (and a bigger plus if you can read both simplified and traditional characters, like many native Mandarin speakers in China and Taiwan can do).

If you're working on deals in Southeast Asia (Singapore, Indonesia, Malaysia, Philippines, Thailand, etc.), English is all you need, and knowing any of the local languages can be a plus, but not a huge one.

With Korean deals, you can get away with English for the most part, but knowing Korean will ensure you get staffed on Korean deals.

With Japan (IBs usually run Japan as an operation separate from the rest of Asia), you need to be fluent in Japanese. It's not an option or a plus, but an absolute necessity - both spoken and written.

If Japan is any indication, I'm willing to bet Mandarin will be a must (if it isn't already) for China and Taiwan within the next 10 years or so.

It's hard to learn the characters, but it's possible. I went from zero to about 1,000 characters in one year (even with banker hours), which meant I could get by with everyday things (menus, signs, karaoke, some reading materials, etc.). However, you need to know around 2,000 characters to be able to read a newspaper or most business documents - very difficult, but still possible with effort.

Alex Chu

Having worked a summer at BB in Asia, I have to say that MBAApply's post is right on. Great post, accurate and comprehensive.

I'd add that while you can get by on mostly English for some deals (such as Korean deals), a lot of times financial statements, research, ect. are going to be in the native language and it saves a lot of time to be able to read the language to some extent.

are spot on. I'd like to add though that currently most top IBs in HK only recruit a very small portion of non-mandarin hires- most of those speaking another asian language (most noticeably korean or indo/malay/some other SE Asian language)

generally if they hire you as a non-mandarin hire you'll be staffed on deals that don't involve chinese. it's not a huge disadvantage but it does limit you some especially as at some IBs over 50% of revenue comes from china.

if you consider yourself a mandarin hire then fluent spoken/written is a must.

during all my BB interviews for HK, there were always some sort of spoke interview in mandarin chinese. for one BB there was actually a written translation test on the spot as well. so i guess the language is really a requirement for HK now especially since they're testing during interviews.

or maybe this is just because i'm chinese? there were a few Caucasians interviewing as well and i doubt the HR tested their chinese skills.

Great post Alex, but what's more interesting is how the hell did you learn 1000 characters while working full-time?

It was hard, but at least in my experience, I had the hours of a banker and the travel of a consultant - I was always on the road as many of my colleagues were across all banks at that time - it's more client relationship driven there, so the "face time" includes lots of client visits. When you're stuck in airports, airplanes, hotel rooms, etc. you have plenty of time to read (I was lucky in that after a while the VPs and MDs I worked with trusted me enough that I didn't have to pretend to work).

By the way, if you can already speak functionally well and want to learn how to read traditional characters, the absolute best textbooks in my view are the ones written by John DeFrancis (Beginning Chinese Reader Vol. 1 and 2, Intermediate Chinese Reader, and Advanced Chinese Reader, which take you up to around 1,100 words). They have been out of print for some time as they were published in the 60s, but were published by Yale University Press (and you might get them on Amazon).

Alex Chu

Well, personally I find that most BB IBs hire caucasians generally. With some exceptions of course from top places like Tsinghua University or Fudan etc or perhaps even HKUST.

However, it is best to be on top of the cohort in order to be considered. Ideally, you hould try to get into the Ivys, I do not thinkyou should think that you do not have the aptitude. You just have to try, and keep trying when you fail. Do take note of opportunity cost of wasted time too.

Secondly, you can start getting experience from the non BB Ibs too like Lazard, Rothschild or local ones like CICC, BOC, SHK etc which are good quality names too.

Not sure which area ur heading to but my advice is find out whatever you can about the field and appreciate if you can survive in there. It is not a job for everyone and having fund at your job is what will bring you to the next level.

I'm interested in this as well.

From what I understand, things have changed significantly since the financial crisis. Six years ago ABCs had a decent shot; today, the banks look for native Mandarin speakers (preferably with serious family connections) from China. With that said, I have heard that there is less of a barrier for S+T type roles, especially equity sales to North American/European investors.

By the way, equity research is similarly strict on language issues. It's possible to break, but the people I know that have done so had SERIOUS initiative (pre-emptively wrote a equity research report in Chinese on their own). I also know of a guy that got a job at JPM through frequenting Taiwanese nightclubs and schmoozing with all of the traveling HK-based financiers there. It's possible.

In any event, I would ask yourself how bad you want to be in Asia- you could always try to network from a sales based role into IBD. It would take a pretty shiny position for me to stick around here.

Basically all of what you guys are saying is true. In order to get a job at a BB or other top bank in HK in IBD or another similar division you'll need to have native level mandarin or very, very close - i.e. the ability to read and write contracts and legal docs in Chinese. Short of that, you need exceptional connections.

Some small PE firms and HFs etc. will look at you if you just have verbal fluency, but that's almost always relationship based, so I'd be weary of shooting for that if you don't know people.

Your best shot if you want to stay in asia would be to shoot for an S&T position in HK or Singapore --- particularly things like HF credit sales, etc.. Either that or you have to come over here and REALLY COMMIT, i.e. go to CET program in Harbin or some shit and spend 2 solid years there speaking straight mandarin and living in a dormitory without ever breaking into english.

One other option is coming to China and getting a job outside of finance... lots of kids do that --- tech companies like Zynga, Groupon, etc. all hire foreigners from top colleges and they pay pretty decent salaries too -- many of my friends here on the mainland work at these types of firms.

did your friends get these jobs straight out of undergrad?

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bump

If your school isn't a target one, you'll just have to go online on each firm's website and look up the deadline there and apply.

I have a friend working at a boutique in HK right now and looking to transition to a larger company in a year or so. I am hoping that if/when I land my boutique position, after 2 years he said to hit him up and will try to help me get my foot in the door in HK.

It's probably a pipe-dream, but without connections I see any non-local having a difficult time getting a position there.

It's worth a try, but I deem your chances to be very slim. I have tried applying to BB HK offices for a summer internship before (English-speaking, Asian-descendent from UK, non-mandarin speaking), have been rejected by all banks for their HK location, but was offered positions for their London offices instead (IBD).

My uni is also a target for BB in London, but I am absolutely certain HK offices did not even had a glance at my resume, or otherwise I would have at least received a phonecall (since I got quite a few interviews in London)

Since HK banks currently do a lot of business in China, speaking mandarin is almost a pre-requisite at entry level, not to mention the scarce positions available.

I am now planning to complete my analyst program in London and try to transfer to HK at a later stage. I recommend you to do the same in Australia.

Which banks did you guys apply to? I'm assuming that the prominent players in IBanking are different in HK than in the US/UK, so i'm not sure which places to look for when trying for a summer. Do you think it's too late to apply since I know it takes like 6 weeks for a work permit application to be processed?

You pretty much need the language these days. Also, if these places only recruit for ops, I wouldn't call your uni a "target". There are some people from Australian universities in HK BBs, but the vast majority are from top US schools, usually native speakers who went to the US for college. You have absolutely no advantage over these people.

From what I understand, the absolute BASIC MINIMUM is able to read fluently. Of course, you're always trying to exceed the minimum requirements...

I have ZERO speaking or writing ability in any asian language and got interviews (including a final rounder) with a couple of BBs. Didn't get offers though...but I cannot be sure if it was because of the language barrier as I think a HK office might not require you to speak the language.

Don't get me wrong... I've seen people who cannot speak/write/read any Asian languages (i.e. Cantonese and/or Mandarin) interviewing for HK BB offices for both 1st and final rounds. However, whether they get an offer is another question.

After all, if they are faced with two candidates, both have the same qualifications except for the language factor, who would they pick?

Actually, I should add that there are a lot of English-only individuals in HK BB's. However, most of them -- if not all of them -- are at the senior levels (i.e. Director, VP, MD, etc)

Don't quote me on this...

But as far as I know, you'll still be taxed at an Australian rate even if you work in HK. I think the HK Govt witholds more if you're not a HK PR/citizen. I'm assuming you're not a HK PR/citizen since you said you had no affiliation with the place.

Also, the ATO will chase you up for your money even if you were to hide in HK. My uncle, for example, is a HK citizen and Australian citizen. When he went back to HK to work, the Aust Govt still chases him for tax... until he shut them down. But know the difference. He IS a HK citizen.

Finally, the moment you bring the money back in to Australia you'll get taxed anyway. Unless you plan to never come back to Australia (which you can't unless you're a HK PR/citizen), you'll never get away with the taxes.

Edit: I'm a HK citizen and Australian citizen. I've been told that if I have investments in Australia, the Aust Govt will still tax my HK income. Let me tell you, we live in a greedy country.

Hmmm that's no good cafe_apple. I'll have to look into that a bit more. But it wouldn't surprise me... god we pay a lot of tax.

As far as I understand, the income from overseas will be counted towards your taxable income threshold for purpose of calculating your applicable rate.

However, income generated OUTSIDE AUSTRALIA will not be taxed.

For example, if you earn AUD$150,000 whilst you were in HK, and another $10k whilst in Australia, they will use the highest tax bracket of say 45% (AUD$160k) for the $10k earned in Australia.

What a bloody greedy government. Bloody don't want to be here

dh212

(1) Congrats on getting your job offer at a BB in HK. I'm very interested in knowing how you'll survive without knowing any Chinese whatsoever in the long run. Ever heard of the need to socialize with clients? What the fuck are you going to do when Chinese clients want to sing Karaoke? Sing Baby Hit Me One More Time?

(2) Fuck you about this BoA shit. You people here don't get the point of my original post --- to point out that you shouldn't focus on prestige so much, as it seems to be the ONLY single factor in deciding job offers.

I just recently spoke to a guy at MS in HK, he said usually they place native speaking assignments on native speakers, so if you don't know chinese or have a minimal background it still is possible to make it, of course it doesnt hurt if you do!

ur punch line is as hilarious as the movie it came from i agree that not listening to canto pop and not singing k is detrimental to a career in banking, cause its totally what the big boys in HK business do u've proven that only u can move and adapt to another country, and i really respect that

and u sure did a brilliant job of getting ur point across. dude

...do you know what "detrimental" means

to answer the original questioned posed by edmunsta, you definitely can make it. i do not speak any dialect of Chinese and i summered at GS HK. I did it through a family connection before going to nyc the same summer to intern at another bb. but my point is, there were other non-native speakers working there. that being said, all of us knew how to speak a second language from what i remember. most of us were asian, but not all of us spoke chinese.

i have no idea what detrimental means

but i know ICBC stands for imperial chinese bank of commerce the China way is based on replication over creativity, they probably got the source from a prestigious big 5 bank in Canada, EH ?

3bg:

prospie - you are referring to ICBC (imperial chinese bank of commerce or something) and i think it's more like 22 billion

Guys.....

It's not hard to Google this info up right?

ICBC = Industrial and Commercial Bank of China 中國工商銀行 (白人看不懂..... 根本就是對牛彈琴）

dh212:

Since you're going to work in China and that you don't know shit about Chinese, I'll give you a little lesson here on history. The last thing a government-owned / controlled entity (especially a bank) in China is to name it with anything associated with "Imperial". The entire point of Sun Yat Sen's overthrow of the Qing dynasty was to abolish the imperial system. Democracy (i.e. Republic of China) and communism (i.e. People's Republic of China) were founded based on the overthrow of imperial China. As well, isn't communism, at its fundamentals, believe that the power resides with the people/workers?

And finally, dh212, you need to get your shit right here. ICBC by market cap is now the one of the top 5 banks in the world. You think a bank that huge would need to copy shit from Canadian banks? As well, have you even heard about the world's largest oversubscribed IPO?

I thought ICBC was Industry and Commerce Bank of China

lol this is killer funny, thanks for the history lesson, u truly are dumb as a rock !!

dude, u really are an on9 piece of art ah... u remind me of my retarded cousins from UBC Commerce that suffer from vancouver brain deterioration and lack personality implants canada is definitely a wise choice for u btw here's the original post http://www.ibankingoasis.com/node/1374 read before ur emotions go out of control next time, else someone will get another brutal history beating from u

ICBC officially overtook boa and is now the world's 2nd largest bank by mkt cap.. as to edmunsta - all the bbs came to unsw and some actually do hire for hk offices. defnly worth trying, i know one guy who got ms offer even though he doesn't know chinese. but then he's top gun and has started learning mandarin. i guess the key is you have to show interest in learning the language

A lot of books are handed off from HKG to London to NYC. Therefore someone can move from New York to Hong Kong and as soon as the jet lag wears off, get on the desk and be productive.

I myself is a mandarin speaker, but i don't think asian language skills are compulsory in hk.

Admittedly, a second language is definately a plus to hunt a job in hk. However, according to my summer experience in HK, quite some SAs are pure english speakers and they finally choose hk to start their full time work.

For reference purpose, i think 20%-30% SAs in my ibd class are pure english speakers. The percentage should be much higher in S&T divisions. (seems that majority of traders are of western origin in hk)

Hey I'm going to bump up this old thread. How difficult is it to get into PE in Asia without knowing Mandarin or Korean? -- assuming you do a 2 year IB stint in HK or Singa?

Thanks guys

Hey gweilo where are you originally from? I'm from Toronto...loving HK...kinda regretting not trying out NY/London. Hard to develop contacts though, the people here don't talk much; very private. I guess Torontonians are much more outgoing. It's real difficult at analyst presentations and IPO luncheons everyone just stares at each other. Also, I notice that the HK people are quite rude. I was at an IPO presentation for a local offering and I thought our institutional sales guy was joking when he said I needed to sharpen my elbows. When it was time to go into the room, people in all directions were shoving each other just to get a seat. I'm tiny and was in heels...no surprise I got shoved to one side. And to think that we are all supposed to be educated, finance professionals with manners? Guess not.

which bank?

im from chicago.

the presentation story sounds pretty bad...i'm guessing it's a mix of people from all over the place where you work?

i haven't started yet but will be on the brokerage side. people i've talked with have all been pretty cool and outgoing.