Banking on Insurance: Breaking in from the Insurance industry - fact or fiction?

Primeape's picture
Rank: Baboon | 112

Here's what my boss said to me over a couple of beers.

About half the industry (insurance) is made up of guys who couldn't cut it as bankers. When all else fails, you have dad call up his college bud at [insert name of commercial insurer here] and get you a cush 9-5 gig wining, dining and selling GL coverage to other hacks.

. What could have passed for just another cynical (my boss has a none-too-rosy outlook on life), albeit perhaps accurate statement - seemed to hit truer to home for me and was a tad disheartening.

I graduated college about a year ago with a combined BS and MS degree (Finance and Risk Management) from the epitome of non-target. Following graduation I went to work as a FT risk (catastrophe risk)analyst for a sizable insurer. Great - I was employed in a shitty economy and compensated quite well to work 50 hours a week (first in, last out too)! Plus, I dodged the double whammy of having to go home to my BRIC country. Being an international student, I would have had to return home if my current firm hadn't sponsored my Visa. So all-in-all, things are going well. But alas, I have the same infliction that ails the majority of this site's prospective monkeys - I want to work in banking...always have.

It is to this effect, that my bosses remarks seemed ominous and disheartening. Had I, in my zeal to stay in the states, taken the fast-pass to the aspiring-banker graveyard? In the past, when I've asked other professionals that I've met within the industry (including brokers, underwriters, risk managers etc.) how they started in insurance, the answer is usually something to the effect of

Yeah when I got out of school, I wanted to work in investment banking, but then I found [insert current job here] and it's been the best thing ever.

. Now I'm not questioning that each of these guys truly has found the best thing ever, but none-the-less there is a scary trend here:

Non-Target School-->Aspiring Banker-->9.00-5.00 models and bottles in INSURANCE

Truth be told, perhaps I'm being a little harsh. The insurance does have a lot of perks: the work is interesting (I look at how we might lose money during catastrophic events), the people are very nice (for the most part), there are some very smart individuals in the industry, the hours are great, comp is decent and there is a decent amount of travel (about 50% boondoggles), plenty of soirees replete with food, booze and fun on the company's dime. You can also learn a lot about a relatively evergreen industry (although we are affected by hard and soft markets with accompanying profitability) and make a decent chunk of chain as you climb the ladder. But I still want to be a banker and that is what I intend to continue working towards.

To this effect, I'm throwing out a question to WSO - are there any monkeys out there who have made the successful transition from insurance to banking? And how did you do it? I would also love to hear about folks currently within the industry, trying to break into IB. I myself have just put into play a 6 month, intensive networking and rebranding plan to try and break in. I have drawn on all the fantastc information on this site and others like it (M&I for one) to develop what I feel like will be the most effective networking strategy. On a side-note, I've already spoken with 3 ED and MD level guys at BBs through just a month of work and while neither may yield an offer, at least I am getting through (more on this later though).

On the flip-side, if there are any monkeys on the site who are interested in working within the industry feel free to ask any questions and I will do my best to answer them. There are plenty of interesting areas in which to work; just some of which are underwriting (client facing), risk-management (modeling/quantitative), brokerage (Type-A sales role/potential for big bonuses), reinsurance (insurance for insurers, longer hours and more money) and my personal favorite Insurance Linked Securities ILS (insurance meets investment banking - structuring esoteric loss triggered risk transfer mechanisms.

WSO has been a tremendous resource and one that I intend to leverage to eventually break into banking. I already have a better resume and networking success thanks to them. Usually, when we read about monkeys who want to break in or have already broken in - a pre and post-mortem analysis, if you will. In my future posts, I hope to provide a regular account of how my grand (questionably) 6 month, Banking or Bust program is going. I hope this helps other insurance monkeys who are IB hopefuls, or truthfully anyone who wants to work in IB (not to mention anyone who is international and from a non-target).

Comments (70)

Jun 17, 2012

+1 SB, nice post.

Could you elaborate on the ILS role? This is basically structuring cat bonds, right?

Insurance is a little opaque relative to other industries. Within a large F500 insurer, which jobs are most coveted? I mean outside of actuarial jobs, of course.

How big is the pay gap between insurance and reinsurance? And why are the hours longer? I seem to remember reading that reinsurance brokerages were awesome places to work. Could you elaborate on those?

Jun 17, 2012
West Coast rainmaker:

+1 SB, nice post.

Could you elaborate on the ILS role? This is basically structuring cat bonds, right?

Insurance is a little opaque relative to other industries. Within a large F500 insurer, which jobs are most coveted? I mean outside of actuarial jobs, of course.

How big is the pay gap between insurance and reinsurance? And why are the hours longer? I seem to remember reading that reinsurance brokerages were awesome places to work. Could you elaborate on those?

Sure thing. Yes, I was alluding to the structuring and origination of cat bonds and other ILS such as side-cars, ILWs, mortality and longevity bonds (this is life and health though) and index linked bonds (such as CWIL). There are lot of different areas you can work within the ILS sphere though. You can build models price the risk within a bond at the time of issue or to trade them on secondary markets. These jobs require a very quantitative skill-set, often times at least a Masters, if not a Phd. Structuring the contracts underlying a bond is an area that is more accessible to most people. A single contract clause can essentially mean the difference between a multi-billion $ pay-out versus and making money on the deals. One of the bankers I was networking with works in such a role at a BB. He needs to have a very solid understanding of the market and trends, not to mention the ability to draft iron-clad contracts. His role crosses over into the sales of such bonds to issuers as well -there in lies the potential for banking sized bonuses. It helps that he has a JD, but this is not a pre-requisite to work in such a role. I would say a very solid interest and above-average understanding of ILS and where they might be useful are all you really need to be successful in this sphere.

As you correctly pointed out, actuarial positions are highly sought after. That being said, a hopeful needs to have a very solid grasp of math- at least 4 semesters of college calculus and 1/2 actuarial exams. These exams are exceedingly and hard and you need to continue taking them throughout you career to advance and perhaps make it to chief actuary some day. Compensation is great relative to pay: 65k out of school and usually a lock-step increase with every exam. An FCAS can easily make about $200-$300 base with bonus, perk, stock and other comp not factored in. Aside from actuaries, the most sought after position (actually the most sought after to the general applicant) is that of an underwriter. Underwriters are essentially the FO of insurance, the guys who asses a risk, price it and write the business. They are the sales-force and breadwinners of the firm and can and do make substantial bonuses depending on the volume of PROFITABLE business they write. Most CEO at insurance firms either come from actuarial backgrounds or were start underwriters with proven track records. Underwriting also involves a lot of wining and dining of clients (probably more so than any industry) and this is a great perk for any 22 year old with an expense account and license to spend - it's pretty much an obligation.

The pay-gap is substantial, at the lower levels on average 15-25%. This is usually the norm as you rise in the ranks as well. The answer to both your questions is staffing. Insurers have thousands of employees dealing with claims, administrative work and other day-to-day operations of a lot of clients. More headcount means more ways for profits to be split. The reinsurance industry is relatively small with about 200 major players. They operate with much smaller staffs and also have much less day-to-day busy work. Why? Because, if you think about reinsurers usually play in the higher layers of a policy (for e.g. of a $10M policy the primary might keep the first $5M, which given the law of large numbers you have a fairly good idea of what your losses will be and the reinsurer takes the remaining $5 along with a ceding commission), these layers are higher-risk/higher-reward. Reinsurers don't have to pay out on major losses to often as only the lower layers are hit. But when a major catastrophe hits (we're in the tail of the curve now), they pay big! So for a 5 year stretch a reinsurer can basically just make pure profit and hope that in the 6th when they pay out, their underwriting was solid. But as I said, fewer people doing the work = longer hours (on average) and more money. Reinsurance is a great place to be, just as Warren Buffett!

Reinsurance brokerages such as Guy Carpenter, Aon Benfield and Willis Re are indeed phenomenal places to work. Reinsurance is an entirely (almost) broker market. So these brokerage houses are the gatekeeper for reinsurers to their only business (primaries) and also for insurers to move massive risks off their books (reinsurers). Brokers facilitate the massive treaty placement transactions that all insurers and reinsurers engage in and charge a handsome fee on every transaction (to the tune of 10-15%). On a $15-$200M deal - you do the math. They also offer value added services, such as 3rd party risk modeling . The work in these houses is very interesting, you can make a lot of money (it's not unheard for a good senior broker to make $1-$2M per year) and develop great industry contracts. It's also a very competitive and Type A business, much like insurance underwriting although probably more so. And the life-style is pretty awesome too. Hours though, can be somewhat unpredictable as you work for a client and as any one in IB knows - client's money, client's time.

    • 1
Jun 17, 2012
Primeape:
West Coast rainmaker:

+1 SB, nice post.

Could you elaborate on the ILS role? This is basically structuring cat bonds, right?

Insurance is a little opaque relative to other industries. Within a large F500 insurer, which jobs are most coveted? I mean outside of actuarial jobs, of course.

How big is the pay gap between insurance and reinsurance? And why are the hours longer? I seem to remember reading that reinsurance brokerages were awesome places to work. Could you elaborate on those?

Sure thing. Yes, I was alluding to the structuring and origination of cat bonds and other ILS such as side-cars, ILWs, mortality and longevity bonds (this is life and health though) and index linked bonds (such as CWIL). There are lot of different areas you can work within the ILS sphere though. You can build models price the risk within a bond at the time of issue or to trade them on secondary markets. These jobs require a very quantitative skill-set, often times at least a Masters, if not a Phd. Structuring the contracts underlying a bond is an area that is more accessible to most people. A single contract clause can essentially mean the difference between a multi-billion $ pay-out versus and making money on the deals. One of the bankers I was networking with works in such a role at a BB. He needs to have a very solid understanding of the market and trends, not to mention the ability to draft iron-clad contracts. His role crosses over into the sales of such bonds to issuers as well -there in lies the potential for banking sized bonuses. It helps that he has a JD, but this is not a pre-requisite to work in such a role. I would say a very solid interest and above-average understanding of ILS and where they might be useful are all you really need to be successful in this sphere.

As you correctly pointed out, actuarial positions are highly sought after. That being said, a hopeful needs to have a very solid grasp of math- at least 4 semesters of college calculus and 1/2 actuarial exams. These exams are exceedingly and hard and you need to continue taking them throughout you career to advance and perhaps make it to chief actuary some day. Compensation is great relative to pay: 65k out of school and usually a lock-step increase with every exam. An FCAS can easily make about $200-$300 base with bonus, perk, stock and other comp not factored in. Aside from actuaries, the most sought after position (actually the most sought after to the general applicant) is that of an underwriter. Underwriters are essentially the FO of insurance, the guys who asses a risk, price it and write the business. They are the sales-force and breadwinners of the firm and can and do make substantial bonuses depending on the volume of PROFITABLE business they write. Most CEO at insurance firms either come from actuarial backgrounds or were start underwriters with proven track records. Underwriting also involves a lot of wining and dining of clients (probably more so than any industry) and this is a great perk for any 22 year old with an expense account and license to spend - it's pretty much an obligation.

The pay-gap is substantial, at the lower levels on average 15-25%. This is usually the norm as you rise in the ranks as well. The answer to both your questions is staffing. Insurers have thousands of employees dealing with claims, administrative work and other day-to-day operations of a lot of clients. More headcount means more ways for profits to be split. The reinsurance industry is relatively small with about 200 major players. They operate with much smaller staffs and also have much less day-to-day busy work. Why? Because, if you think about reinsurers usually play in the higher layers of a policy (for e.g. of a $10M policy the primary might keep the first $5M, which given the law of large numbers you have a fairly good idea of what your losses will be and the reinsurer takes the remaining $5 along with a ceding commission), these layers are higher-risk/higher-reward. Reinsurers don't have to pay out on major losses to often as only the lower layers are hit. But when a major catastrophe hits (we're in the tail of the curve now), they pay big! So for a 5 year stretch a reinsurer can basically just make pure profit and hope that in the 6th when they pay out, their underwriting was solid. But as I said, fewer people doing the work = longer hours (on average) and more money. Reinsurance is a great place to be, just as Warren Buffett!

Reinsurance brokerages such as Guy Carpenter, Aon Benfield and Willis Re are indeed phenomenal places to work. Reinsurance is an entirely (almost) broker market. So these brokerage houses are the gatekeeper for reinsurers to their only business (primaries) and also for insurers to move massive risks off their books (reinsurers). Brokers facilitate the massive treaty placement transactions that all insurers and reinsurers engage in and charge a handsome fee on every transaction (to the tune of 10-15%). On a $15-$200M deal - you do the math. They also offer value added services, such as 3rd party risk modeling . The work in these houses is very interesting, you can make a lot of money (it's not unheard for a good senior broker to make $1-$2M per year) and develop great industry contracts. It's also a very competitive and Type A business, much like insurance underwriting although probably more so. And the life-style is pretty awesome too. Hours though, can be somewhat unpredictable as you work for a client and as any one in IB knows - client's money, client's time.

Are you talking about Life Underwriting? or Business Underwriting because Life underwriting isn't sexy at all... I'm an intern there and I can essentially be an underwriter at least the simpler cases and I've only been there for a week.

The answer to your question is 1) network 2) get involved 3) beef up your resume 4) repeat -happypantsmcgee

WSO is not your personal search function.

Jun 17, 2012

why banking?

Jun 17, 2012
<span class=keyword_link><a href=http://tinyurl.com/3zap9yh target=_blank rel=nofollow>John Rolfe</a></span>:

why banking?

Two sets of reasons why:

The right reasons why I want to work in banking. I would say my motivation is 50% this and 50% the wrong reasons (to follow):

    A feel like IB is one of those truly rare jobs that:
  • Of course, increases your professional acumen - manifold. I mean there is something to be said for working with the smartest and most driven people in the financial world - all of whom quickly assimilate the massive body of knowledge required to be a successful banker
  • Learn how to interface and manage relationships - be it with a client, superiors or colleagues - it forces you to learn how to deal with all types in a high pressure environment
  • Allows you to be part of a productive and successful team. I feel like young bankers are given tremendous responsibility and the results (the underlying analyses they perform really is integral to the whole proces) of their work define the outcome for an entire team - very rare environment to work in
  • Push yourself - mentally and physically
  • I think after 3 years as a IB analyst - you will never be the same again - whatever you decide to pursue in life, you will have a work ethic, skill-set and maturity - leagues ahead of anyone else

All the wrong reasons:

<

ul>

  • The money, the money..the money$.
  • The prestige (no matter how much I delude myself into believing I am above this
  • The exit opportunities - virtually every door out there is open or at least greased at the hinges (IMO)
  • It's the bar I set for myself years ago to define professional success. If it wasn't, I'd lose a tremendous source of drive and motiavation
      Jun 18, 2012

      @bfin: That's great exposure if you intend to stay in insurance, especially L&H (although I get the feeling that's not quire what you want to do). While I never worked in L&H, I have heard from friends and colleagues that there can be a uniformity to a lot of the policy submissions. Which makes sense if you think about it - the law of large numbers is a huge component in L&H - underwrite a large enough number of similar risks and you can accurately approximate what your sum losses will be.

      If you're at a big insurer though, is there any way you can be placed in the investment or Asset Management arm of the company? At my firm they only take people with a background in investments or S&T and some experience - but that's for FT. I never asked about an internship. I imagine that might be pretty exciting stuff though - trading and managing the company's portfolio of assets to ensure that future liabilities and losses can be paid.

      Jun 18, 2012
      Primeape:

      @bfin: That's great exposure if you intend to stay in insurance, especially L&H (although I get the feeling that's not quire what you want to do). While I never worked in L&H, I have heard from friends and colleagues that there can be a uniformity to a lot of the policy submissions. Which makes sense if you think about it - the law of large numbers is a huge component in L&H - underwrite a large enough number of similar risks and you can accurately approximate what your sum losses will be.

      If you're at a big insurer though, is there any way you can be placed in the investment or Asset Management arm of the company? At my firm they only take people with a background in investments or S&T and some experience - but that's for FT. I never asked about an internship. I imagine that might be pretty exciting stuff though - trading and managing the company's portfolio of assets to ensure that future liabilities and losses can be paid.

      Yeah, the goal is the work in investments next summer...I'm talking to a few people my insurer has a HF and PE arm.. I'm sure if people track my posts enough they can figure out where I work.

      The answer to your question is 1) network 2) get involved 3) beef up your resume 4) repeat -happypantsmcgee

      WSO is not your personal search function.

      Jun 18, 2012

      @bfin: Good luck...not sure where you work, although a few places do come to mind.

      Jun 18, 2012
      Primeape:

      @bfin: Good luck...not sure where you work, although a few places do come to mind.

      I just wish Insurance wasn't such a climbing the corp ladder type of business. It's almost unbelievable the whole everyone has a manager thing is ridiculous. It's impossible to enact any real change.

      The answer to your question is 1) network 2) get involved 3) beef up your resume 4) repeat -happypantsmcgee

      WSO is not your personal search function.

      Jun 18, 2012
      bfin:
      Primeape:

      @bfin: Good luck...not sure where you work, although a few places do come to mind.

      I just wish Insurance wasn't such a climbing the corp ladder type of business. It's almost unbelievable the whole everyone has a manager thing is ridiculous. It's impossible to enact any real change.

      Ha ha, I couldn't agree with you more! I have 2 managers, an official mentor and an unofficial one. I told my boss a year ago that I knew VBA and SQL and could make some of our processes a lot faster, and she said we needed to discuss it before I had the green light. I waited 6 months before saying screw it. Just recently, I revamped an existing modeling and reporting process that usually took 3 days, entirely in VBA and the process time went down to an hour and half! My boss was stunned and pleased. But here's my question - why not just give the new guy time of day to at least pitch an idea, worst case I get enough rope to hang myself. There's a lot of great things about the industry, but there some antiquated traditions (like taking a couple of years to earn your wings) that just need to be revamped. A little more internal competitiveness would be great. Although I feel like one tends to find that a little more at brokerage houses.

      Jun 18, 2012

      @bfin: I don't find boring, but I definitely feel fostering a more competitive work environment, at least among the younger employees is essential. I think investments would be exciting, way more fast paced and not to mention you would get IM experience. Bonuses would probably be tied to your P&L in some way, which would be great! Are you planning to take the CFA as a talking point or to boost your chances?

      Jun 19, 2012
      Primeape:

      @bfin: I don't find boring, but I definitely feel fostering a more competitive work environment, at least among the younger employees is essential. I think investments would be exciting, way more fast paced and not to mention you would get IM experience. Bonuses would probably be tied to your P&L in some way, which would be great! Are you planning to take the CFA as a talking point or to boost your chances?

      Well I want to become an intern..first and then if they say yes and its a requirement then I certainly will do that. My uncle is a PM/MD at an investment arm of another insurance company and he doesn't have a CFA nor does anyone in his office so..well see.

      The answer to your question is 1) network 2) get involved 3) beef up your resume 4) repeat -happypantsmcgee

      WSO is not your personal search function.

      Jun 19, 2012

      My uncle is a PM/MD at an investment arm of another insurance company and he doesn't have a CFA nor does anyone in his office so..well see.

      Dude, you are so set. Worst case, can't your uncle get you a position within the investment arm of his insurer? Nepotism is as much, if not more an integral part of hiring within insurance as Finance or any other industry. Ha, ha -all you need is your network of 1 (your uncle).

      Jun 19, 2012

      I set up an account specifically to contribute to this thread. I can't comment on how to transition between Insurance and Ibanking, however...

      I did start out in Finance and then transitioned out into insurance brokering. So I would offer the following advice:

      If you eventually find that your first choice (finance) is impossible/not the right conditions, there is a way to really monetize your insurance experience if you head into sales. I find that the level of competition/drive/ect. in the insurance industry is lower than in Finance. If you ever decide to become a broker, this makes it easier for you to be different.

      In fact, i hope to eventually find a partner who is working on or has a CFA charter to help build my business with me. You can really push the finance angle on prospective clients and it has a big impact. Think about it, many of the decision makers (CFOs or execs) are finance people but their insurance people almost never are.

      Just my 2 cents if you're forced to make the best out of it.

      P.S. i know everyone craps on sales but it does get very technical and challenging. You really do spend allot of time analyzing, often finding an inefficiency which can get you a foot in the door to create a relationship. I would trade the top exec of any brokers for an elite producer. (I'm talking guys who manage 100M-200M premiums bringing in 10-20 Mil of revenue.)

      Jun 19, 2012
      Straightjacket:

      I set up an account specifically to contribute to this thread. I can't comment on how to transition between Insurance and Ibanking, however...

      I did start out in Finance and then transitioned out into insurance brokering. So I would offer the following advice:

      If you eventually find that your first choice (finance) is impossible/not the right conditions, there is a way to really monetize your insurance experience if you head into sales. I find that the level of competition/drive/ect. in the insurance industry is lower than in Finance. If you ever decide to become a broker, this makes it easier for you to be different.

      In fact, i hope to eventually find a partner who is working on or has a CFA charter to help build my business with me. You can really push the finance angle on prospective clients and it has a big impact. Think about it, many of the decision makers (CFOs or execs) are finance people but their insurance people almost never are.

      Just my 2 cents if you're forced to make the best out of it.

      P.S. i know everyone craps on sales but it does get very technical and challenging. You really do spend allot of time analyzing, often finding an inefficiency which can get you a foot in the door to create a relationship. I would trade the top exec of any brokers for an elite producer. (I'm talking guys who manage 100M-200M premiums bringing in 10-20 Mil of revenue.)

      Straightjacket, I am really glad you joined WSO just to comment on the post. It is both awesome to have another insurance professional on the site, willing to share insights as well as heartening to know that breaking into banking isn't the be-all and end-all. Could you elaborate (if you it's not too personal) on why you transitioned out of a finance role into brokerage? What kind of role were you in? I agree, I sometimes feel stymied by the lack of drive and ambition within the workplace and have heard there is much more of this as a broker. Could you perhaps shed a bit more light on comp as well, say at the big houses like GC, Willis and Benfield. For instance, how soon after an entry level position could you make 6 figures (I know it's not all about the money, but it's definitely a factor)? I have, since joining the industry, been some what interested in the reinsurance brokerage aspect of the business.

      As for the Finance component (I'm a finance guy from UG), I have never been able to employ it thus far. Perhaps it is more useful at the higher levels. But I definitely see the point you are making. Ironically, I am in the process of working on my CFA - but more as a foothold to break into Finance.

      And as for the last part, having taken part in the CAT treaty placement process I am only too aware of how hard you guys have to work to earn business. The brokers we work with have some cutting edge analytics and at the same time treat us with the uttermost "client is always right" kid gloves approach. It's a tough business with some heavy hitters. And being a complete broker market, finding any degree of differentiation is tough. And I completely agree - top producers are top of the food chain - especially in a % based business where you're not really risking your own capital.

      Thanks a ton for your post. Keep writing and contributing solid stuff.

      Jun 20, 2012
      Primeape:
      Straightjacket:

      I set up an account specifically to contribute to this thread. I can't comment on how to transition between Insurance and Ibanking, however...

      I did start out in Finance and then transitioned out into insurance brokering. So I would offer the following advice:

      If you eventually find that your first choice (finance) is impossible/not the right conditions, there is a way to really monetize your insurance experience if you head into sales. I find that the level of competition/drive/ect. in the insurance industry is lower than in Finance. If you ever decide to become a broker, this makes it easier for you to be different.

      In fact, i hope to eventually find a partner who is working on or has a CFA charter to help build my business with me. You can really push the finance angle on prospective clients and it has a big impact. Think about it, many of the decision makers (CFOs or execs) are finance people but their insurance people almost never are.

      Just my 2 cents if you're forced to make the best out of it.

      P.S. i know everyone craps on sales but it does get very technical and challenging. You really do spend allot of time analyzing, often finding an inefficiency which can get you a foot in the door to create a relationship. I would trade the top exec of any brokers for an elite producer. (I'm talking guys who manage 100M-200M premiums bringing in 10-20 Mil of revenue.)

      Straightjacket, I am really glad you joined WSO just to comment on the post. It is both awesome to have another insurance professional on the site, willing to share insights as well as heartening to know that breaking into banking isn't the be-all and end-all. Could you elaborate (if you it's not too personal) on why you transitioned out of a finance role into brokerage? What kind of role were you in? I agree, I sometimes feel stymied by the lack of drive and ambition within the workplace and have heard there is much more of this as a broker. Could you perhaps shed a bit more light on comp as well, say at the big houses like GC, Willis and Benfield. For instance, how soon after an entry level position could you make 6 figures (I know it's not all about the money, but it's definitely a factor)? I have, since joining the industry, been some what interested in the reinsurance brokerage aspect of the business.

      As for the Finance component (I'm a finance guy from UG), I have never been able to employ it thus far. Perhaps it is more useful at the higher levels. But I definitely see the point you are making. Ironically, I am in the process of working on my CFA - but more as a foothold to break into Finance.

      And as for the last part, having taken part in the CAT treaty placement process I am only too aware of how hard you guys have to work to earn business. The brokers we work with have some cutting edge analytics and at the same time treat us with the uttermost "client is always right" kid gloves approach. It's a tough business with some heavy hitters. And being a complete broker market, finding any degree of differentiation is tough. And I completely agree - top producers are top of the food chain - especially in a % based business where you're not really risking your own capital.

      Thanks a ton for your post. Keep writing and contributing solid stuff.

      I transitioned away from Finance into brokering because I didn't like the work. I was an analyst at a small health services investment fund. The work was analytically challenging but not my cup of tea. I see myself more as a builder than an analyst.

      Keep in mind, i never worked at a BB so the decision to change careers would be tougher with higher pay and more status. (i assume)

      I'm not made to work in large companies, i don't like doing the same thing over and over again. I'd rather spend 2 hours staring at my wall to figure out what analysis i can put together or what inefficiency i can leverage to bring in a new client. Insurance brokering gives me this opportunity.

      I can't speak to the pay at the big brokers because they now have structured programs where younger professionals start as the technical analysts on the files (not the correct term) and then transition to client facing roles once they have much more experience. I'm a partner at a boutique.

      In a warped way, i see my business as similar to valuing equity. I have to read a ton and make adjustments and forecasts, and then come to a conclusion which i leverage to win an account or a new relationship. If i win a client, i just created >100% return on my investment + most of variables are under my control.

      If i make the right call on a stock, even with a tremendous amount of work, i can never make 100% and most variables are outside my control. I think that even the younger technical account handlers can provide this value to their senior brokers and it will make them shine. Simplistic example i know, but I'm trying to show the difference in value created.

      Anyways, I'm a bit of a weird guy who goes against the grain so don't take what i'm saying without a grain of salt...

      My only tangible advice is, If you make a real go at insurance brokering, get your CFA charter and concentrate on industries such as finance, natural resources, D&O, ect. It'll even be easy to get your middle market clients to feed you group benefits business if you have a department in your firm. More cross selling, more power to you.

      I'm weak in reinsurance so no comment.

      Jun 19, 2012

      There's nothing wrong with working in insurance. A good friend of mine is currently employed at one of the biggest insurance companies as an actuarial analyst. He has passed 3 of the exams, makes about 85k a year with significant raises every year and for every exam passed, works 37.5 hours a week, has tremendous job security, and has a ton of perks and vacation time. Long term he'll probably become a consultant, and it's safe to say he'll pull in 400k+ in another 10-15 years.

      In his spare time he works on his own computer programming projects (focused on data analytics), and if any of them pan out he'll strike it BIG.

      I don't get the banking or bust mentality. The job sucks, the competition is fierce, the industry is contracting, and you really don't make THAT much money.

      Jun 20, 2012
      Babyj18777:

      There's nothing wrong with working in insurance. A good friend of mine is currently employed at one of the biggest insurance companies as an actuarial analyst. He has passed 3 of the exams, makes about 85k a year with significant raises every year and for every exam passed, works 37.5 hours a week, has tremendous job security, and has a ton of perks and vacation time. Long term he'll probably become a consultant, and it's safe to say he'll pull in 400k+ in another 10-15 years.

      In his spare time he works on his own computer programming projects (focused on data analytics), and if any of them pan out he'll strike it BIG.

      I don't get the banking or bust mentality. The job sucks, the competition is fierce, the industry is contracting, and you really don't make THAT much money.

      Agreed, actuarial careers = stable hours (relatively, quarter close for FRD teams can be bad) and reasonable compensation. But there are a few caveats to being successful actuary:

    • You need have either an innate or learned aptitude for advanced mathematics, this is an absolute must to even get hired and segues into the second caveat
    • you absolutely have to keep passing exams for career advancement. These require at least 300 hours per exam, a phenomenal math aptitude and serious persistance (most people fail at least 1 or 2 and have to retake
    • 400+ would require the FCAS designation. Which is 10 exams and at least 12-15 years of experience. It's a tough road till you get there. Check out this link on actuarial comp DW Simpson Actuarial Salary Survey
    • Perhaps "banking or bust" sounds too dire. For me personally, it's just a goal I want to get to and I have allotted myself a timeframe in which to do it. And as with any goal I want to give it my all in that time fram. After that, se la vis - I tried and I can settle back down to enjoying life and my current career. But you have to admit, $120 vs $65 (entry level, 2 exams) is a pretty big difference at our age. And your options down the road are pretty impressive as well. As far as actuaries go, you have much less flexibility into what fields you can transition, not to mention you've invested all that time and effort into passing exams. I'm not knocking the profession, just pointing out that there are pros and cons, as with anything else.

      Jun 20, 2012

      Great thread.

      Does anyone have more information on the AM part in insurance. I'm interested in more the analytical aspect in the insurance industry and would therefore prefer a career in AM. Are the requirements the same as any other AM firm?

      Jun 20, 2012
      Walkerr:

      Great thread.

      Does anyone have more information on the AM part in insurance. I'm interested in more the analytical aspect in the insurance industry and would therefore prefer a career in AM. Are the requirements the same as any other AM firm?

      Interested as well. At my company, it's a small team. All with stellar and deep trading experience from BBs. On an unrelated note, 3 of them are former Rhodes scholars - although I'm sure that's not a prerequisite for the role!

      Jun 20, 2012
      Jun 20, 2012

      To specify the rotational program was at an insurance company...

      Jun 21, 2012

      I'm a qualified actuary who works in the AM arm of an inusrance company. My experience might not be that relevant as I work in an EM country and the rules of the game are different here.

      I'm in equities so nothing to do with my actuarial experience/qualification. Here the experience is pretty good, we deal with all the BB's that operate here and I've had multiple job offers to do ER on the sell side. The pay is good too espechially at senior levels (our PM's make $1M+ with minimal hours, which is a lot more after adjusting for cost of living than $1M in NYC for example). We have a sizable AUM so most management teams of major companies in our market will meet with us whenever we want. At 25 this can make you feel much more important than you really are.

      What I can also say is that getting an entry level actuarial gig at some of the well known consultancies (Towers Watson etc.) can also lead that some really good career paths. Pay is not IB level but they sponsor exams, fewer hours etc. and if you know what you are doing can lead to some pretty good roles in IB/AM and even management consulting. There are a lot of roles in IB/AM that require knowledge of liabilities as well as the needs of pension funds and insurance companies and the right actuarial experience can translate pretty well. If you are in Investment Consulting you can even parlay the experience into a role at an HF (although more capital raising type work not investment except at an HF FoF).

      IMO one really excellent thing here is you always have the option of going back to that work if IB does not work out. In the current environment this is pretty valuable. In any case these jobs I am referring to in IB/AM tend to be less commoditized than typical roles so job security is often quite good unless its in a niche market that is going anywhere.

      Jun 22, 2012
      safricactury:

      I'm a qualified actuary who works in the AM arm of an inusrance company. My experience might not be that relevant as I work in an EM country and the rules of the game are different here.

      I'm in equities so nothing to do with my actuarial experience/qualification. Here the experience is pretty good, we deal with all the BB's that operate here and I've had multiple job offers to do ER on the sell side. The pay is good too espechially at senior levels (our PM's make $1M+ with minimal hours, which is a lot more after adjusting for cost of living than $1M in NYC for example). We have a sizable AUM so most management teams of major companies in our market will meet with us whenever we want. At 25 this can make you feel much more important than you really are.

      What I can also say is that getting an entry level actuarial gig at some of the well known consultancies (Towers Watson etc.) can also lead that some really good career paths. Pay is not IB level but they sponsor exams, fewer hours etc. and if you know what you are doing can lead to some pretty good roles in IB/AM and even management consulting. There are a lot of roles in IB/AM that require knowledge of liabilities as well as the needs of pension funds and insurance companies and the right actuarial experience can translate pretty well. If you are in Investment Consulting you can even parlay the experience into a role at an HF (although more capital raising type work not investment except at an HF FoF).

      IMO one really excellent thing here is you always have the option of going back to that work if IB does not work out. In the current environment this is pretty valuable. In any case these jobs I am referring to in IB/AM tend to be less commoditized than typical roles so job security is often quite good unless its in a niche market that is going anywhere.

      Thanks safricactury. One question: what are the prerequisites for the IM/AM path you outlined. Actuarial exams? CFA (or the equivalent in your EM country)? And by way of consulting, do you mean specialists like Milliman or across the board MC? And I also imagine, even on the investing side -exams are necessary for advancement?

      Thanks again.

      Jun 22, 2012

      OP - PM me, I have some relevant experience but don't want to post publicly.

      Jun 22, 2012

      I happen to have done CFA too. It will help with advancement and establishes me as more of an investment guy than an actuary. It really depends on the shop you are at and where you want to go. In ER CFA is obviously a nice addition but don't think it is essential.

      I followed the UK exam system for actuaries. It is 15 exams and signifcantly more difficult than FCAS and FSA. To follow and IM/AM path I think it is more important to seek experience that translates well into something useful in IM than to pass the exams. Once you are in a less actuarial area it will only help marginally if you have passed exams or not. However, if you want to qualify you better do it before you move out of an actuarial place as you need the study leave and hours in any bank (and even AM) will make this impossible.

      Specialist consulting at some firms can help you get relevant experience for IM/IB. eg. Modelling pension fund liabilities can translate well into running an LDI fund for example. There are lot's of other possibilities. PM me if you want details.

      In the UK MC's like Mck take actuaries.However, you will need to be a Fellow and demonstrated the usual desired qualities. In the US might be more of a stretch but I would imagine they have top performing actuaries that focus on insurance/fin services.

      Jun 22, 2012
      safricactury:

      I happen to have done CFA too. It will help with advancement and establishes me as more of an investment guy than an actuary. It really depends on the shop you are at and where you want to go. In ER CFA is obviously a nice addition but don't think it is essential.

      I followed the UK exam system for actuaries. It is 15 exams and signifcantly more difficult than FCAS and FSA. To follow and IM/AM path I think it is more important to seek experience that translates well into something useful in IM than to pass the exams. Once you are in a less actuarial area it will only help marginally if you have passed exams or not. However, if you want to qualify you better do it before you move out of an actuarial place as you need the study leave and hours in any bank (and even AM) will make this impossible.

      Specialist consulting at some firms can help you get relevant experience for IM/IB. eg. Modelling pension fund liabilities can translate well into running an LDI fund for example. There are lot's of other possibilities. PM me if you want details.

      In the UK MC's like Mck take actuaries.However, you will need to be a Fellow and demonstrated the usual desired qualities. In the US might be more of a stretch but I would imagine they have top performing actuaries that focus on insurance/fin services.

      You passed all 15 CFA exams? Good work.

      The answer to your question is 1) network 2) get involved 3) beef up your resume 4) repeat -happypantsmcgee

      WSO is not your personal search function.

      Jun 22, 2012
      safricactury:

      I happen to have done CFA too. It will help with advancement and establishes me as more of an investment guy than an actuary. It really depends on the shop you are at and where you want to go. In ER CFA is obviously a nice addition but don't think it is essential.

      I followed the UK exam system for actuaries. It is 15 exams and signifcantly more difficult than FCAS and FSA. To follow and IM/AM path I think it is more important to seek experience that translates well into something useful in IM than to pass the exams. Once you are in a less actuarial area it will only help marginally if you have passed exams or not. However, if you want to qualify you better do it before you move out of an actuarial place as you need the study leave and hours in any bank (and even AM) will make this impossible.

      Specialist consulting at some firms can help you get relevant experience for IM/IB. eg. Modelling pension fund liabilities can translate well into running an LDI fund for example. There are lot's of other possibilities. PM me if you want details.

      In the UK MC's like Mck take actuaries.However, you will need to be a Fellow and demonstrated the usual desired qualities. In the US might be more of a stretch but I would imagine they have top performing actuaries that focus on insurance/fin services.

      You passed all 15 CFA exams? Good work.

      The answer to your question is 1) network 2) get involved 3) beef up your resume 4) repeat -happypantsmcgee

      WSO is not your personal search function.

      Jun 22, 2012

      Thanks bfin. I some ways it was pretty stupid considering I could have channelled that energy into getting better oppurtunities :). Also I wrote papers during my degree so only had a couple left when I started work. I must be a sucker for punishment considering I went and learned all the crap about grandma's 10k in the CFA too!

      Jun 22, 2012
      safricactury:

      Thanks bfin. I some ways it was pretty stupid considering I could have channelled that energy into getting better oppurtunities :). Also I wrote papers during my degree so only had a couple left when I started work. I must be a sucker for punishment considering I went and learned all the crap about grandma's 10k in the CFA too!

      But 15 exams..you are at least doing pretty well and still have a life outside of work

      The answer to your question is 1) network 2) get involved 3) beef up your resume 4) repeat -happypantsmcgee

      WSO is not your personal search function.

      Jun 22, 2012

      I know of a few IB Associates from major insurers whom made a jump to their Associate role in a BB FIG group.

      Many of them were on the corporate/business development side of major insurance deals (think MetLife-ALICO) and because of their proximity to the bankers underwriting and advising, they were provided with a deep contact base.

      Sure it's a special case, but if you align yourself with those in your company who handle the bus dev of insurance companies, you'll be in prime position to receive the best set of contacts and references necessary to make a jump.

      Jun 24, 2012
      sabian:

      I know of a few IB Associates from major insurers whom made a jump to their Associate role in a BB FIG group.

      Many of them were on the corporate/business development side of major insurance deals (think MetLife-ALICO) and because of their proximity to the bankers underwriting and advising, they were provided with a deep contact base.

      Sure it's a special case, but if you align yourself with those in your company who handle the bus dev of insurance companies, you'll be in prime position to receive the best set of contacts and references necessary to make a jump.

      Good to know. My firm is relatively young and poised for growth -so I imagine there be some very useful experiences to be had (especially in Bus Dev). And at the end, networking and leveraging those banker contacts, seems key. Thanks for the post.

      Jun 23, 2012

      Reinsurance = the Special Olympics of Finance

      Rules for Success in Reinsurance:

      1) Never believe a single thing a Broker from Aon, Guy Carp or Willis tells you

      2) Ignore the analytics, the old back of the envelope methods worked better.

      3) Actuaries will kill your deals, find ways to bypass them

      4) Learn to drink

      5) If you REALLY want to succeed: write all the business you can, ignoring quality, and leverage your huge book of business for a new job elsewhere before it blows up

      "The American father is never seen in London. He passes his life entirely in Wall Street and communicates with his family once a month by means of a telegram in cipher." - Oscar Wilde

        • 1
      Jun 23, 2012

      Unless you're with Prem Watsa or David Einhorn, you're not doing anything interesting on the investment side either.

      Too many insurers and reinsurers outsource the bulk of their AM to BlackRock

      "The American father is never seen in London. He passes his life entirely in Wall Street and communicates with his family once a month by means of a telegram in cipher." - Oscar Wilde

      Jun 23, 2012
      Primeape:

      Plus, I dodged the double whammy of having to go home to my BRIC country. Being an international student, I would have had to return home if my current firm hadn't sponsored my Visa. So all-in-all, things are going well.

      Fellow international here. Is it common for insurance companies to sponsor work visas? Can you explain more about getting a Visa-sponsoring finance job (be it insurance or something else you've looked into before graduating college) from a non-target? Thanks.

      Jun 24, 2012
      Model Student:
      Primeape:

      Plus, I dodged the double whammy of having to go home to my BRIC country. Being an international student, I would have had to return home if my current firm hadn't sponsored my Visa. So all-in-all, things are going well.

      Fellow international here. Is it common for insurance companies to sponsor work visas? Can you explain more about getting a Visa-sponsoring finance job (be it insurance or something else you've looked into before graduating college) from a non-target? Thanks.

      Like finance, it is highly contingent on the size of the firm. Bigger companies tend to sponsor more visas. More importantly, it depends on the role your applying for. Most companies (including mine) are usually quite willing to hire someone into a quantitative role with specialized requirements - actuarial is a great example. You need try and differentiate yourself and show your potential employer that the money and hassle of you getting you a Visa is absolutely necessary and adds value to the firm. For smaller firms/firms that don't offer sponsorship - a lot of it comes down to networking. Most major companies (insurers included) can sponsor visas if they choose to. You need to make sure you network with the people who have enough authority to sign off on sponsoring you.For me personally, I interviewed with COO and it was his decision to sponsor my Visa. This was a unique case, but the point I am making is that an AVP at a firm that doesn't usually sponsor visas, probably can't do the same for you. At the end off it your best bets are working for big MNCs that are known for sponsoring visas (do your research here) and networking extensively, to cover all your bases. Hope this helps.

      Jun 24, 2012

      I actually started my career in insurance. I worked for a large commercial broker full time when I was 18 and did it for 4.5 years during college (and a little bit after). (physics/finance major at non-target school). I started out as an intern doing actuarial modeling which turned into a full time gig after 6months managing captive insurance companies and handling my employer's investments in those companies. I made a name for myself within the company and ended up with an 'office of the chairman' position where I continued my old job of managing captives but also helped out with m&a etc. I then left to go work for a hedge fund covering insurance companies and eventually tech companies. I always wanted to go into banking to be honest, but could not make it work at the time and decided to take the HF job. I later realized that I made the best choice. I left the hedge fund to go work for a very very early stage tech startup (current job) where I was the 2nd business guy at the company. I took the company through an IPO which was my first experience with bankers. I met with MD's and even Vice chairs at BBs on a regular basis and during every meeting I was thinking "these are the guys that wouldn't give me a shot?" I almost laughed at the intelligence (or lack thereof) of most of them and realized that there isn't much difference between a banker and a real estate broker. Neither know what they are talking about, but can be useful when you need a list of targets. If i were you I would be careful what you wish for. Insurance can be fun, but work for a broker not an underwriter. Become an industry expert and then look for a move into banking if that is truly what you want. People in finance like industry experts. If I were you, I would target all FIG groups. A mba might help with the switch.

        • 1
      Jun 24, 2012
      techguy24:

      I actually started my career in insurance. I worked for a large commercial broker full time when I was 18 and did it for 4.5 years during college (and a little bit after). (physics/finance major at non-target school). I started out as an intern doing actuarial modeling which turned into a full time gig after 6months managing captive insurance companies and handling my employer's investments in those companies. I made a name for myself within the company and ended up with an 'office of the chairman' position where I continued my old job of managing captives but also helped out with m&a etc. I then left to go work for a hedge fund covering insurance companies and eventually tech companies. I always wanted to go into banking to be honest, but could not make it work at the time and decided to take the HF job. I later realized that I made the best choice. I left the hedge fund to go work for a very very early stage tech startup (current job) where I was the 2nd business guy at the company. I took the company through an IPO which was my first experience with bankers. I met with MD's and even Vice chairs at BBs on a regular basis and during every meeting I was thinking "these are the guys that wouldn't give me a shot?" I almost laughed at the intelligence (or lack thereof) of most of them and realized that there isn't much difference between a banker and a real estate broker. Neither know what they are talking about, but can be useful when you need a list of targets. If i were you I would be careful what you wish for. Insurance can be fun, but work for a broker not an underwriter. Become an industry expert and then look for a move into banking if that is truly what you want. People in finance like industry experts. If I were you, I would target all FIG groups. A mba might help with the switch.

      This is a great post. You seem to have had a very interesting and unconventional route to the buy-side. I eventually (pipe dreams know no bounds) hope to work on the buy side, in PE. Hence the impetus to break into banking first. And I really want to do it BEFORE I venture out to get my MBA, as the options available would diminish considerably ( the all-important pre-MBA PE associate gig). It seems like you grew from strength to strength and really leveraged the role you were in. To me the key take-away seems to be (as you pointed out_ - Industry Expertise. Definitely serves to remind one that there is great experience and knowledge to be had in any role and one should really assimilate as much of it as possible before trying to make the jump to something else. I am definitely trying to focus on FIG groups as well certain specialty banking roles such as ILS structuring. Do you think at this point though, given the time-frame I have projected and the requisite amount of development one should have in every role - that there is any sense in me trying to make the jump to a broker and then try and break into banking? I mean if I wanted to do brokerage for a while that would be a solid plan, but I am not sure if it's worth it, as a stop-gap measure. It would be great if you could weigh in on this.

      Thanks for the awesome post - hope there's more to come.

      Jun 24, 2012
      Primeape:

      This is a great post. You seem to have had a very interesting and unconventional route to the buy-side. I eventually (pipe dreams know no bounds) hope to work on the buy side, in PE. Hence the impetus to break into banking first. And I really want to do it BEFORE I venture out to get my MBA, as the options available would diminish considerably ( the all-important pre-MBA PE associate gig). It seems like you grew from strength to strength and really leveraged the role you were in. To me the key take-away seems to be (as you pointed out_ - Industry Expertise. Definitely serves to remind one that there is great experience and knowledge to be had in any role and one should really assimilate as much of it as possible before trying to make the jump to something else. I am definitely trying to focus on FIG groups as well certain specialty banking roles such as ILS structuring. Do you think at this point though, given the time-frame I have projected and the requisite amount of development one should have in every role - that there is any sense in me trying to make the jump to a broker and then try and break into banking? I mean if I wanted to do brokerage for a while that would be a solid plan, but I am not sure if it's worth it, as a stop-gap measure. It would be great if you could weigh in on this.

      Thanks for the awesome post - hope there's more to come.

      If your end goal is to get into PE then you might be able to skip banking altogether. I would suggest trying as hard as you can to get into a corp dev role at your company or a peer. Just cold call/email every corp dev guy in the industry. Get your mba part time while staying in that role and then get a post mba PE position at an insurance focused PE shop. I'm not an IB/PE career expert however. I know the investment management industry much better. Investment management tends to value industry expertise over modeling abilities.

      Jan 31, 2013

      Your first mistake was sticking around for a MS from a non-target. Your second mistake was taking a job just to stay in the country. And your third mistake is spending this much time and effort trying to break into banking. For you, it will never happen. Why doesn't anyone have the heart to say this?

      This is WSO bro, not RIMS. Give up the wet dream and move on.

        • 1
      Feb 12, 2013

      Bump

      Apr 17, 2014

      @Primeape,

      I too am trying to break into investment banking. I currently do not have any experience in the investment banking field and I wanted to know...
      As college undergrad from a non-target would you recommend that I try to land an insurance internship,network, learn the necessary skills that will help me in break into the banking world and go from there? Is there another path you would suggest someone who fits my profile should take?

      Any advise would be greatly appreciated.

      Jul 20, 2014

      Primeape, I made an account just to pick your brain, if that's okay. Thanks for starting this brilliant thread! I am about to start a client facing cat modelling job with a leading vendor in London in September with the aim of transitioning into a Lloyd's syndicate or reinsurance broker in a couple of years time. However, I would say that as well as having the analytical mindset needed in this area, I am significantly more of an A-type personality than a lot of the people I've met in this profession so far and wouldn't want those strengths to be wasted. I have heard quite a lot about underwriting and it seems like it would be quite a good fit for me somewhere down the line. Have you ever heard of any cat modellers transitioning into underwriting? I would assume the analytical and pricing experience gained in cat modelling, especially with the added insight of working for a vendor, would be very useful...you tell me.

      Also, 2 year down the line, how has your banking or bust program worked out for you? Have you managed to make the transition? If I ever felt like transitioning into banking, do you think it would be possible? Keeping in mind that my background is in the physical sciences rather than economics/finance etc.

      Aug 16, 2015

      Hi MacChuff - how has your cat modelling experience been thus far? For what its worth, I think there are 3 options for a budding cat analyst within the insurance space :

      1. Generalist - natural transition into other areas of insurance such as property cat UW, or heading up a cat team.
      2. Specialist - Model developer (software) or take on a phd/ masters (if you have not already done so) as a peril expert.
      3. BAU - just continue 'turning the wheel' - until your process oriented job gets outsourced to India :P

      I am keen to hear from Primeape and others to see if other cat analysts have been able to transition into other areas outside insurance i.e risk management in finance/ IB / management consulting. I believe that a solid cat analyst would possess an attractive repertoire of transferable technical skills such as data analysis and good understanding of statistics/risk and pricing? In addition, he/she would have also gained experience in client -facing situations when presenting results to underwriters, actuaries ...

      Happy to hear other thoughts on the employ-ability of cat risk analyst beyond their traditional domain..

      Sep 1, 2015

      An alternative to cat modeling would be to learn capital modeling and move to the enterprise risk side. There's currently a shortage of skilled capital modelers in the North American market currently, as Solvency II hasn't made its way over to the US / Bermuda yet.

      Sep 1, 2015

      You could try an internal move. I would only do so, though, if your firm's culture would be accepting of this. My advice would be to try lateraling to a FIG boutique that focuses on insurance. Other than that, you may try looking at MBA programs. Unfortunately, lateraling from outside IB into IB is very difficult at best. Good luck.

        • 1
      Sep 1, 2015

      What do you do now for the insurance company?

      Sep 1, 2015
      mbaer2012:

      What do you do now for the insurance company?

      This

      "It is better to have a friendship based on business, than a business based on friendship." - Rockefeller.

      "Live fast, die hard. Leave a good looking body." - Navy SEAL

      Sep 1, 2015

      asap

      Sep 1, 2015

      How do b-schools view credit risk?

      Sep 1, 2015

      .

      Sep 1, 2015

      Network your ass off, and jump into a possible BB or MM associate role, associate is the post MBA entry point. Really there isnt anything much else to add, you work experience will be similar to IBD as far as the actual work goes, obviously the information analyzed will be very different.

      Follow the shit your fellow monkeys say @shitWSOsays

      Life is hard, it's even harder when you're stupid - John Wayne

      Sep 1, 2015

      Very possible. Don't be surprised if banks try to put you in a FIG role though

      Sep 1, 2015

      Thanks heister. Guess it all really comes down to who ya know..

      Sep 1, 2015

      I wouldn't know, but I imagine working in FIG would be pretty sweet. At a BB what could I potentially expect in a FIG role - I mean is kinda s&t, or structuring and issuing bonds for an offering? Not really sure what the role comprises-interested to learn more.

      Sep 1, 2015
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