Is Marriage Useless Today?

mod (Andy) note: "Blast from the past - Best of Eddie" - This one is originally from November 2010. If there's an old post from Eddie you'd like to see up again shoot me a message.

Has marriage become obsolete? According to a recent Time Magazine/Pew poll, 40% of Americans believe that marriage is obsolete today, and 44% of Americans under 30 believe the institution of marriage is soon to be extinct.

I can't think of a better topic to write about on my 8th anniversary.

You guys know how I feel about marriage from a practical standpoint: there's no percentage in it. Clearly, Prince William is not a WSO reader. All joking aside, though, is marriage dead? For someone in a lopsided income/asset relationship (where one partner earns or is worth far more than the other), how could it be to the advantage of the more financially successful partner to get married?

An entire cottage industry of lawyers dedicated to busting prenuptial agreements has sprung up over the past decade, so even that last line of defense is no longer impenetrable. And I never thought pre-nups were a good idea in the first place. Marriage is hard enough to keep together without an easy out hanging over its head.

The social stigma attached to being unmarried is now all but nonexistent (especially for men). Eight times as many children are born out of wedlock in America today than were in 1960. And only 26% of 20-somethings are married today, versus 66% of them 50 years ago.

This might come as a shock to many of you, but the divorce rate was much higher in 1978 than it is today. While this might appear to be good news on the surface, the reality of the statistic is that people just aren't bothering to get married any more. Co-habitation is way up, and jumped a full 13% from 2009-2010 (the recession no doubt played a large role in the increase).

In my view, the only reason to get married is if you want to have kids. My wife and I have been married 8 years today, and we've got two great kids and a fantastic family life. I have to admit that the stability is nice, and stability is something I abhorred for the majority of my adult life.

I'd like to hear what you guys think. Is marriage obsolete? Would you consider raising a family without being married? And should the government have anything whatsoever to do with marriage, straight or otherwise? I'll leave you with Doug Stanhope's thoughts on the matter, and you can leave me with yours:


Oh, and Happy Anniversary to my gorgeous bride. I know she reads my stuff about as often as Prince William but, just in case, now I'm covered.

 

First off, congratulations on your anniversary.

Edmundo Braverman:
I have to admit that the stability is nice.

However, how can you claim to enjoy stability when everything you own, and everything you will own, is on the line? When you married your wife you gave up everything. For what? So you can wear a fucking ring?

Marriage, from a male perspective, brings with it a horrific rick to reward ratio. There is minimal gain.

Marriage was a ploy developed by women. Men do not gain form marriage - everything they can get from it they can easily get without getting married. It's a poor rate of return.

My girlfriend has been in my ear constantly about whether or not I think I'll ever marry her. I told her no.

 
Clarkey:
However, how can you claim to enjoy stability when everything you own, and everything you will own, is on the line? When you married your wife you gave up everything. For what? So you can wear a fucking ring?

Marriage, from a male perspective, brings with it a horrific rick to reward ratio. There is minimal gain.

I can't disagree. The risk/reward ratio is horrific, which is why I can't recommend marriage to any but those whose sole focus in life is children.

That said, I'd lose a great deal more than material possessions if my wife ever left me. A guy like me has mastered wealth generation, so I could lose everything I have tomorrow and I'd have it all back in a couple years. I don't sweat that shit for a minute. My wife and family, on the other hand, are irreplaceable.

 
Edmundo Braverman:
Clarkey:
However, how can you claim to enjoy stability when everything you own, and everything you will own, is on the line? When you married your wife you gave up everything. For what? So you can wear a fucking ring?

Marriage, from a male perspective, brings with it a horrific rick to reward ratio. There is minimal gain.

I can't disagree. The risk/reward ratio is horrific, which is why I can't recommend marriage to any but those whose sole focus in life is children.

That said, I'd lose a great deal more than material possessions if my wife ever left me. A guy like me has mastered wealth generation, so I could lose everything I have tomorrow and I'd have it all back in a couple years. I don't sweat that shit for a minute. My wife and family, on the other hand, are irreplaceable.

How would you have it all back in a couple years? Do you still invest/trade?

I know this is missing the point but just curious. Congrats again.

 
Edmundo Braverman][quote=Clarkey:
.

That said, I'd lose a great deal more than material possessions if my wife ever left me. A guy like me has mastered wealth generation, so I could lose everything I have tomorrow and I'd have it all back in a couple years. I don't sweat that shit for a minute. My wife and family, on the other hand, are irreplaceable.

Very good point, that's often underrated because people focus on financials or are just to egoistic.

Do what you want not what you can!
 
Clarkey:
First off, congratulations on your anniversary.
Edmundo Braverman:
I have to admit that the stability is nice.

However, how can you claim to enjoy stability when everything you own, and everything you will own, is on the line? When you married your wife you gave up everything. For what? So you can wear a fucking ring?

Marriage, from a male perspective, brings with it a horrific rick to reward ratio. There is minimal gain.

Marriage was a ploy developed by women. Men do not gain form marriage - everything they can get from it they can easily get without getting married. It's a poor rate of return.

My girlfriend has been in my ear constantly about whether or not I think I'll ever marry her. I told her no.

You realize that not everything is based on monetary values, right? If you view every woman out there as trying to get their paws on whatever assets you have or think you're going to have one day, you're looking forward to a pretty lonely life.

I was in the anti-marriage camp for a long time, and if I didn't want to have kids I don't know that I would get married. In the end it came down to a) wanting to have kids and b) knowing that getting married would make my girlfriend immensely more happy than any feeling of self-justification I might gain from trying to remain unmarried and in a long-term relationship.

 
rjroberts1:
Clarkey:
First off, congratulations on your anniversary.
Edmundo Braverman:
I have to admit that the stability is nice.

However, how can you claim to enjoy stability when everything you own, and everything you will own, is on the line? When you married your wife you gave up everything. For what? So you can wear a fucking ring?

Marriage, from a male perspective, brings with it a horrific rick to reward ratio. There is minimal gain.

Marriage was a ploy developed by women. Men do not gain form marriage - everything they can get from it they can easily get without getting married. It's a poor rate of return.

My girlfriend has been in my ear constantly about whether or not I think I'll ever marry her. I told her no.

You realize that not everything is based on monetary values, right? If you view every woman out there as trying to get their paws on whatever assets you have or think you're going to have one day, you're looking forward to a pretty lonely life.

I was in the anti-marriage camp for a long time, and if I didn't want to have kids I don't know that I would get married. In the end it came down to a) wanting to have kids and b) knowing that getting married would make my girlfriend immensely more happy than any feeling of self-justification I might gain from trying to remain unmarried and in a long-term relationship.

No. I can have all of these things without getting married. It's possible to have the best of both worlds. Marriage is neither a provider nor an enabler; it's simply tradition. Not getting married does not impose any barriers to having a family, it only seems to make things socially acceptable. I don't see why it is an either/or deal?

 
Clarkey:
First off, congratulations on your anniversary.
Edmundo Braverman:
I have to admit that the stability is nice.

However, how can you claim to enjoy stability when everything you own, and everything you will own, is on the line? When you married your wife you gave up everything. For what? So you can wear a fucking ring?

Marriage, from a male perspective, brings with it a horrific rick to reward ratio. There is minimal gain.

Marriage was a ploy developed by women. Men do not gain form marriage - everything they can get from it they can easily get without getting married. It's a poor rate of return.

My girlfriend has been in my ear constantly about whether or not I think I'll ever marry her. I told her no.

From what I understand, Edmundo married 8 years ago, that means his wife stuck with him from before he started making money, and didn't leave him in 2008 (if he got affected). right now it wouldn't make any sense for him to marry, had he found himself single, but it looks like he made the right decision 8 years ago. More importantly a united home front probably enabled him to have his cake and eat it to - go out and make money, come back to a kept house, have children, not go nuts, among other things.

And you are full of shit. If your girlfriend was indeed hearing wedding bells to the point of her bringing it up, after hearing "No", she would have just dumped you and moved on.

More is good, all is better
 
Argonaut:
From what I understand, Edmundo married 8 years ago, that means his wife stuck with him from before he started making money, and didn't leave him in 2008 (if he got affected). right now it wouldn't make any sense for him to marry, had he found himself single, but it looks like he made the right decision 8 years ago. More importantly a united home front probably enabled him to have his cake and eat it to - go out and make money, come back to a kept house, have children, not go nuts, among other things.

That's actually not accurate. This is my third (and final) marriage, and I met my wife in 2001 after I retired from trading in 1999. I was leaving the U.S. for good when I met her, to head to the Caribbean in search of hot and cold running natives for the rest of my life.

 
Clarkey:
First off, congratulations on your anniversary.
Edmundo Braverman:
I have to admit that the stability is nice.

However, how can you claim to enjoy stability when everything you own, and everything you will own, is on the line? When you married your wife you gave up everything. For what? So you can wear a fucking ring?

Marriage, from a male perspective, brings with it a horrific rick to reward ratio. There is minimal gain.

Marriage was a ploy developed by women. Men do not gain form marriage - everything they can get from it they can easily get without getting married. It's a poor rate of return.

My girlfriend has been in my ear constantly about whether or not I think I'll ever marry her. I told her no.

If this is how you view marriage, you're clearly doing it wrong. If money matters to you so much, as your post makes very clear, and you can tolerate the thought of people viewing you as a massive gold-digger, then marry a girl who has a lot of money. This is not that hard to do at all, and will save you from having to work extremely hard your entire life. There are lots of daughters of billionaires running around. Assuming you went to a good school/come from a good family/are well-mannered and presentable/whatever else, this is completely doable. I know people who have done it, and the guys that are with them often aren't even that impressive.

This is especially true if you are in New York City/London. If you can't find them, then clearly you're not trying that hard...

Hi, Eric Stratton, rush chairman, damn glad to meet you.
 
Otter.:
Clarkey:
First off, congratulations on your anniversary.
Edmundo Braverman:
I have to admit that the stability is nice.

However, how can you claim to enjoy stability when everything you own, and everything you will own, is on the line? When you married your wife you gave up everything. For what? So you can wear a fucking ring?

Marriage, from a male perspective, brings with it a horrific rick to reward ratio. There is minimal gain.

Marriage was a ploy developed by women. Men do not gain form marriage - everything they can get from it they can easily get without getting married. It's a poor rate of return.

My girlfriend has been in my ear constantly about whether or not I think I'll ever marry her. I told her no.

If this is how you view marriage, you're clearly doing it wrong. If money matters to you so much, as your post makes very clear, and you can tolerate the thought of people viewing you as a massive gold-digger, then marry a girl who has a lot of money. This is not that hard to do at all, and will save you from having to work extremely hard your entire life. There are lots of daughters of billionaires running around. Assuming you went to a good school/come from a good family/are well-mannered and presentable/whatever else, this is completely doable. I know people who have done it, and the guys that are with them often aren't even that impressive.

This is especially true if you are in New York City/London. If you can't find them, then clearly you're not trying that hard...

How did you infer this from what I have said? You are trying to provide a solution when there isn't even a problem. I've said that it is perfectly feasible to live a long and happy life with someone and to have all the advantages of marriage without actually getting married and taking on the associated risks.

How do you make the link between wanting to protect my own assets and taking those of others? I despise this sort of thing.

My point is that it is perfectly feasible, albeit practically difficult, for a guy to have the best of both worlds. He doesn't need to get married to have all the benefits of marriage.

 

Congratulations on 8 years, seems like you're able to keep together a successful career and a family, which I think is the hardest part, so that's awesome. I don't think marriage is useless, it does add some stability, the feeling that you're in it for better or for worse, you'll definitely try to work things out and deal with issue together before just simply breaking up. Yes, there's always divorce, but that's a long, nasty course of action. That being said, I'm 26 and have not dated a girl, that at 6 months out, I'd consider spending the rest of my life with, and I think my dating pool is shrinking yearly as people are getting married and all the good ones are being taken, not that I'd like to be married before 30, but it just makes things harder. Who knows, maybe someone will come around and blow me away, but it hasn't happened yet. I think the later years are when marriage means happiness. Someone to vacation with, travel with in retirement, etc. Facing 50 alone would be tough.

 

For those of you who are marriage-averse (myself included), never underestimate the value of a quality escort service.

Props to Eddie and anyone else who tied the knot and after 8 years can still say they are happy; you have clearly found a real gem in your partner.

In 1976, James Hunt broke the sound barrier through Eau Rouge only to retire before the event finished... following the race he had sex with three Belgian nurses at the clubhouse near La Source.
 

For those who worried that their wives are after their wealth, you should choose a wife after some time together not as a spurt of the moment because she's a great f**k. Why do you think so many marriages that start in early 20s actually survive? because at that age you are still a nobody and the person you choose is for reasons like good character, loyalty, good cook, etc, and vise versa. If you rich as hell and still work like crazy and want to have a hot wife, don't be surprised when you find out in few months/years that she is in it for the wrong reasons.

Marriage actually sucks if you look purely from legal/financial standpoint. It's an institution and all institutions are somehow, somewhere flawed. However, look at it from the perspective of a family. In my view, there is nothing more rewarding than building a family. In a family, you know that no matter what happens to you someone will care for you no matter how rich you are.

I am not crazy about marriage just cause i'm a guy and want my freedom, but looking at my parents I think it's great. I think family can be a reason you wake up each morning.

Do what you want not what you can!
 

I don't really know how I feel about the subject. What I do know is that some day I want to start a family, probably in my late late 20s. There's really no rush; I mean people live longer now, on average, then they used to 50 years ago, so if you factor that in, you have to live with your significant other longer than before, so make sure she's the right person for you. My other thoughts on marriage is that it provides that stability that Eddie mentioned, which is really nice and comforting. At the same time, who says you couldn't have a life partner without "putting a ring on it"?

From a psychological perspective, I've read that people that are married (happily rather than not) live longer than people that go through life without a life partner. Another factor to consider in today's uber competitive society is that both partners will have invested just as much in their education, career, self development etc., so that when it comes down to starting a family, one of them will have to ease on the accelerator, and take care of the kids, the household etc. Even though you share all those responsibilities, someone will have to pick up a slightly heavier part of that load, who's going to do it? Would you? Is she going to do it?

Here's one last thought I have on the matter, that I've come to by discussing it with close friends, who've shared stories of their friends with me, similar to those posted above: people getting married right out of college and way to early in my opinion. I found myself judging these people for all the wrong reasons. I think that if and when you know, you just know! Everyone is different, and has developed different thoughts on life and relationships. I too have a friend who just got married in June and he's 23 years old. Just make sure that she's the right person for you, and that you have a whole lot of things in common. Why? Because when shit hits the fan, and it probably will.... many times, you will always have that common ground to come back to from your arguments and reconcile. Logically, the more common ground you have, the easier it will be to smooth things out. By common ground I mean anything from: life attitudes, career aspirations, likes/dislikes, background, family relationships, family values etc. I'm sure you get the picture and can think of even more of these examples.

Great post Eddie, spurred some real discussion on here, Congratulations on the 8 Years!

 

From what people tell me, marriage is one of the scariest, riskiest things you'll ever do. Yes, you could end up losing a lot, but you could also gain a lot. It isn't really the kind of thing you can quantify, just like you can't really quantify the "goodwill" section of a balance sheet. That being said, people need to be very careful, not casual, about whom they choose to marry.

By the way, just as a disclaimer: the Catholic Church does not teach that marriage is exclusively for making babies. If you think about it, that's another opportunity for the couple to bond even closer--having kids does that to people. You have to give up your old, selfish self and step up to the plate. It takes real cojones.

Metal. Music. Life. www.headofmetal.com
 

Marriage is dead because men are not men anymore, bunch of fucking pussified males with a blackberry, skinny jeans, non-fat latte, getting manicure and shit.

Marriage is dead because some wimps somehow bought the idea that man = woman. It is not. Man's a man and woman's a woman. its apples and oranges. Sure, both are a variety of fruit, still diff as it gets. When you're acting/behaving/living like her, shes confused.

 

its a wrong question on wrong forum.

most of the people here are 20-21, jacked up with student debt, no self-honor / respect, will get on their knees and blow a partner @ goldman for a chance to intern there. fuck do they know about marriage?

 
Don Corleone:
its a wrong question on wrong forum.

most of the people here are 20-21, jacked up with student debt, no self-honor / respect, will get on their knees and blow a partner @ goldman for a chance to intern there. fuck do they know about marriage?

Well done. However, this chain of commentary has been a nice break from the usual "rank the banks" and "which internship should i take" or "how will i ever break into IB" etc.

 
Edmundo Braverman:
In my view, the only reason to get married is if you want to have kids. My wife and I have been married 8 years today, and we've got two great kids and a fantastic family life. I have to admit that the stability is nice, and stability is something I abhorred for the majority of my adult life.

What if you never want kids though? It still seems like it makes sense to settle down at some point, and spend the rest of your life with one person. And, as that comedy clip points out, if you're gonna spend the rest of your life with one person, you pretty much have to get married because otherwise you're an asshole. Put differently, if you do want to spend the rest of your life with one person, you feel forced to get married precisely because the institution of marriage is strong enough in the minds of most people (or maybe just women).

 
econ:
Edmundo Braverman:
In my view, the only reason to get married is if you want to have kids. My wife and I have been married 8 years today, and we've got two great kids and a fantastic family life. I have to admit that the stability is nice, and stability is something I abhorred for the majority of my adult life.

What if you never want kids though? It still seems like it makes sense to settle down at some point, and spend the rest of your life with one person. And, as that comedy clip points out, if you're gonna spend the rest of your life with one person, you pretty much have to get married because otherwise you're an asshole. Put differently, if you do want to spend the rest of your life with one person, you feel forced to get married precisely because the institution of marriage is strong enough in the minds of most people (or maybe just women).

You can simply choose not to, though. Who cares what anyone thinks? If you don't want kids, I can't think of a single reason to get married (unless she's 85, loaded, and on chemotherapy).

 
Edmundo Braverman:
You can simply choose not to, though. Who cares what anyone thinks? If you don't want kids, I can't think of a single reason to get married (unless she's 85, loaded, and on chemotherapy).

I just think it might be hard to spend the rest of your life with a chick without getting married, since marriage has such a hold on girls' minds. So, I'm not so much worried about what society thinks, but rather the constraint of trying to find a women who doesn't want kids, and is open to spending the rest of her life with me without ever tying the knot.

 
Trade4Life:
Yes. Marriage is useless. Worse than useless.

Long term committed relationship > long term commitment relationship with baggage and legal complications to separation.

Anything that you can do with marriage, you can do without being married. It's vestigial.

Agreed. Told my current gf there's no way in hell I'm ever getting married. She's not too pleased. I don't care.
 

I think marriage is extremely important, that is why I am totally against people marrying too young. Especially when kids are involved, marrying young is selfish and irresponsible.

I am the son of parents who married at 20 and divorced after two years. I love them to death, but living life split between two families sucks.

In today's society, the smartest thing a couple can do is wait after at least 5 years of dating, and marry at least after the age of 30. Anything sooner is too risky.

 

From many a girl's perspective, marriage is about security. As surprising as it may be to all you males, its not purely about money, but rather a commitment on both ends. I'm sure you are well aware that as men get older, they become more established in their careers, they age better, thus are more desirable. The exact reverse happens for women. We start peaking in college, and end peaking at 25-27, which is why so many of us want to settle down at that point. Marriage allows us to settle down with a better peace of mind. Its much easier to break up if a couple isn't married, and pretty difficult if the couple is married with kids.

Imho, I don't think marriage is useless at all, and most females would probably say the same.

MrFuture:

In today's society, the smartest thing a couple can do is wait after at least 5 years of dating, and marry at least after the age of 30. Anything sooner is too risky.

I disagree about waiting five years though. Seems a bit long. If a girl started dating a guy at 26, dating for five years is kind of risky -- what if he doesn't end up proposing after five years? Then you're 31, and your prospects become increasingly narrower...

Just my two cents.

 
aspiringbankerchick:
From many a girl's perspective, marriage is about security. As surprising as it may be to all you males, its not purely about money, but rather a commitment on both ends. I'm sure you are well aware that as men get older, they become more established in their careers, they age better, thus are more desirable. The exact reverse happens for women. We start peaking in college, and end peaking at 25-27, which is why so many of us want to settle down at that point. Marriage allows us to settle down with a better peace of mind. Its much easier to break up if a couple isn't married, and pretty difficult if the couple is married with kids.

Imho, I don't think marriage is useless at all, and most females would probably say the same.

MrFuture:

In today's society, the smartest thing a couple can do is wait after at least 5 years of dating, and marry at least after the age of 30. Anything sooner is too risky.

I disagree about waiting five years though. Seems a bit long. If a girl started dating a guy at 26, dating for five years is kind of risky -- what if he doesn't end up proposing after five years? Then you're 31, and your prospects become increasingly narrower...

Just my two cents.

agreed. I think marriage provides more an emotional security than money. Most of my friends (girls) make either equal or more money than the guys.

 
aspiringbankerchick:
From many a girl's perspective, marriage is about security. As surprising as it may be to all you males, its not purely about money, but rather a commitment on both ends. I'm sure you are well aware that as men get older, they become more established in their careers, they age better, thus are more desirable. The exact reverse happens for women. We start peaking in college, and end peaking at 25-27, which is why so many of us want to settle down at that point. Marriage allows us to settle down with a better peace of mind. Its much easier to break up if a couple isn't married, and pretty difficult if the couple is married with kids.

Imho, I don't think marriage is useless at all, and most females would probably say the same.

MrFuture:

In today's society, the smartest thing a couple can do is wait after at least 5 years of dating, and marry at least after the age of 30. Anything sooner is too risky.

I disagree about waiting five years though. Seems a bit long. If a girl started dating a guy at 26, dating for five years is kind of risky -- what if he doesn't end up proposing after five years? Then you're 31, and your prospects become increasingly narrower...

Just my two cents.

agree 100%

if you want to get laid and pick up ton of women..hit the 27-31 crowd....30 is a weird number for women.. they have to settle by x kids by y.... there friends do so they will be losers if they dont... its dumb but tons of women live by it..

5 years is way too long.. you should have a very good idea in 2 years...

 
aspiringbankerchick:
I'm sure you are well aware that as men get older, they become more established in their careers, they age better, thus are more desirable. The exact reverse happens for women. We start peaking in college, and end peaking at 25-27, which is why so many of us want to settle down at that point. Marriage allows us to settle down with a better peace of mind. Its much easier to break up if a couple isn't married, and pretty difficult if the couple is married with kids.

This is exactly why a long term relationship is so much better than marriage for a man.

If a relationship isn't intrinsically worth it (i.e. you are no longer attracted to your partner, or you no longer enjoy their company) then the relationship should end rather than being held together by complicating factors (children, marriage).

Life's too short to settle for a loveless marriage.

 

Anyone who thinks escort services are satisfying...

.... or that an eternal bachelorhood spent chasing pretty young things is going to last...

that person is a child, mentally and emotionally.

When people stop getting married, they stop raising healthy children... a society that fails to give life to the next generation is a society on its death bed...

********************************* “The American father is never seen in London. He passes his life entirely in Wall Street and communicates with his family once a month by means of a telegram in cipher.” - Oscar Wilde
 
veritas14:
Anyone who thinks escort services are satisfying...

.... or that an eternal bachelorhood spent chasing pretty young things is going to last...

that person is a child, mentally and emotionally.

When people stop getting married, they stop raising healthy children... a society that fails to give life to the next generation is a society on its death bed...

True. Two words: Charlie Sheen

 
veritas14:
Anyone who thinks escort services are satisfying...

.... or that an eternal bachelorhood spent chasing pretty young things is going to last...

that person is a child, mentally and emotionally.

When people stop getting married, they stop raising healthy children... a society that fails to give life to the next generation is a society on its death bed...

+1 SB

 

Social evolution of marriage – this may get kind of long, just warning you.

The actual social construct of marriage is not a creation of women but rather a compromise. The objective function of a human female from an evolutionary perspective is to produce offspring that have the highest chance to pass on their genes. They do this primarily by:

  1. Have offspring with the most desired traits (quality)
  2. Monopolize resources for themselves and their offspring and not share it with another female (quantity)

Men on the other hand are attempting to maximize the number of offspring they have that will pass on their genes. Slightly different but it produces the following behavior to optimize on their objective function:

  1. Procreate with as many different women as possible (quantity)
  2. Ensure their offspring have sufficient resources to survive, but not necessarily their own resources and ensure resources are not spent on children that are not their offspring (quality, kind of)

The problem is both groups ideal situation are mutually exclusive. In an ideal female scenario they have a child with that takes the desired traits they want (size, strength, eye-color whatever) and pair it with a mate that has a lot of resources and this doesn’t have to be the same guy. A male on the other hand wants to part with only the resources required to ensure his children’s survival (could be no resources) and move on.

Marriage is essentially a Pareto optimal compromise between a single man and women to remain monogamous so the women doesn’t have to worry that she isn’t getting all the guys resources and the guy doesn’t have to worry that he isn’t raising someone elses kids.

So even in a world where we have paternity tests and child support, we still have thousands of years of history with the institution of marriage. I’ve been in a relationship for a few years now and we cohabit. I still get shit routinely about how I need to marry my girlfriend from her parents, her friends, my parents and her. I’ve even survived a few ultimatums thus far but I have no real hope that I can last indefinitely without getting in the line to lose half my shit. Oh well.

 

Would love to see the demographics of the posts here, I think it'd be very telling. Bottom line is that there are intangible benefits and considerations with marriage. Like Chris Rock said, you don't want to be the old dude at the club. And bouncing around from girl to girl is fine for a while, but it gets old and at some point (assuming you're not completely shallow and soulless) you're going to want something more meaningful. Whether it sounds like the cool thing to do or not, most women grew up dreaming of their wedding day. Eventually you'll realize there's more to life than being a self-absorbed prick and you'll want to make someone else happy.

 

I feel as though I must chime in to this interesting conversation, given my unique situation...

I'm 23 years old, engaged now for 5 months, wedding in August (at which point I'll be 24). We've been dating for almost 7 years now (w/ no breakups), went through college doing the whole long-distance thing (midwest / east coast)...and we couldn't be happier. I think unless you're actually in love with someone, it's very tough for you to truly understand the purpose of marriage and all the benefits it has to offer.

Risks? That concept is ridiculous to me. If you know in your heart that you're making the right decision, there should be no risks, only rewards. You shouldn't have to worry about the fact that she's in it for your money or what happens if you get a divorce. In my mind, divorce should never even be a thought. If you have each other's back throughout every step, there should never be a divergence of feelings towards each other.

I realize most of us have that “alpha male” mentality (we’re bankers, private equity professionals, etc…I get it), but applying that to marriage is just foolish and selfish. What is the point of marriage, you ask? Companionship. Companionship through life. Sure, you have your guy friends who’ll always be there for you, but I find it hard for anyone to refute the fact that female companionship is VERY different than male companionship.

Think about life from a synergy perspective. You can live life single, banging girls here and there but not dedicating yourself to any one person – in this case, your purpose in life is satisfying yourself and no one else. But when you’re married to that special someone, every experience in life is heightened because you’re sharing it with someone else. In this case, you’re not only satisfying yourself, but you’re satisfying your partner and your family.

So what’s the point of “marriage”? If you agree with all the above, why not commit yourself to someone, but just not marry them? Well, marriage solidifies your commitment and your bond with your partner in the eyes of society. As someone pointed out earlier, it’s tradition. Whether you believe in religion or not, marriage is a life event that pre-dates recorded history. When you find that special someone to share life with, you understand and appreciate the concept of being bound by law. If you prefer to have your cake and eat it too…well, you’re probably an immature douchebag who doesn’t deserve to be with that person in the first place.

 
BabyBeluga:
I feel as though I must chime in to this interesting conversation, given my unique situation...

I'm 23 years old, engaged now for 5 months, wedding in August (at which point I'll be 24). We've been dating for almost 7 years now (w/ no breakups), went through college doing the whole long-distance thing (midwest / east coast)...and we couldn't be happier. I think unless you're actually in love with someone, it's very tough for you to truly understand the purpose of marriage and all the benefits it has to offer.

Risks? That concept is ridiculous to me. If you know in your heart that you're making the right decision, there should be no risks, only rewards. You shouldn't have to worry about the fact that she's in it for your money or what happens if you get a divorce. In my mind, divorce should never even be a thought. If you have each other's back throughout every step, there should never be a divergence of feelings towards each other.

I realize most of us have that “alpha male” mentality (we’re bankers, private equity professionals, etc…I get it), but applying that to marriage is just foolish and selfish. What is the point of marriage, you ask? Companionship. Companionship through life. Sure, you have your guy friends who’ll always be there for you, but I find it hard for anyone to refute the fact that female companionship is VERY different than male companionship.

Think about life from a synergy perspective. You can live life single, banging girls here and there but not dedicating yourself to any one person – in this case, your purpose in life is satisfying yourself and no one else. But when you’re married to that special someone, every experience in life is heightened because you’re sharing it with someone else. In this case, you’re not only satisfying yourself, but you’re satisfying your partner and your family.

So what’s the point of “marriage”? If you agree with all the above, why not commit yourself to someone, but just not marry them? Well, marriage solidifies your commitment and your bond with your partner in the eyes of society. As someone pointed out earlier, it’s tradition. Whether you believe in religion or not, marriage is a life event that pre-dates recorded history. When you find that special someone to share life with, you understand and appreciate the concept of being bound by law. If you prefer to have your cake and eat it too…well, you’re probably an immature douchebag who doesn’t deserve to be with that person in the first place.

Your story sets my expectation of love/marriage really high which is not good...

 

We find our greatest selves when we commit outside our selfish ego.

Marriage has many wonderful secondary "benefits" or goods... but its core is the gift of oneself to another, becoming one flesh, creating life....

********************************* “The American father is never seen in London. He passes his life entirely in Wall Street and communicates with his family once a month by means of a telegram in cipher.” - Oscar Wilde
 

This thread has exploded with opinions, so I'll keep mine simple. Marriage can work, and I think it's a good thing. There is one huge caveat - get a FUCKING prenump. Allow me to tell you a story about one of my best friends from college.

My friend (let's call him Scott) had dated the same girl since freshman year of college. She went to a different school, but came around often enough that we all felt as though we knew and were friends with her. They were a great couple, and she seemed like a good catch. After dating for 6 years, they finally married 2 years after college graduation and bought a house together. We all attended their wedding, toasted the bride, and it looked like they were set for a great life together. Scott was working in banking and had just been promoted to associate, and his wife worked as a teacher. 6 months after their wedding, Scott's wife leaves on a family vacation. When she returns, she has a confession to make. She met "a guy" during the trip, and they had sex. Scott is obviously incensed, but eventually decides he wants to work it out. They enroll in couples therapy. After one session, she tells Scott she is not in love any more, and wants a divorce. Scott wants to work it out, but it's not up to him. They separate - she continues living in the house that Scott bought (with his money), while he is in a 1br apartment.

One day, a process server arrives on his doorstep. Scott's wife has accused him of battery and assault, and has filed a restraining order against him. Scott and I are extremely close - he swears the accusations have no merit, and everyone else that knows him agrees. Still, he is barred from even entering his own house if his wife is there. He stops by one day to pick some things up while she is out, only to find a copy of "Men Who Hate Women, and the Women Who Love Them" sitting on the nightstand. Turns out that she's recently been diagnosed with bipolar disorder, and truly believes the whole thing is Scott's fault.

How does it end? Scott is now divorced at 26, and his wife took the house, half his money, and half of everything he owned. Half of everything he earned slaving away in banking, while she continues to work as a part time teacher and live in the house that he bought. Every single one of us knew her for 6 years, and nobody saw it coming.

Moral of the story - no matter how long you've dated or how well you think you know her - shit happens. GET A FUCKING PRENUMP. I hope to get married one day as well, but you'd better believe I'll be telling Scott's story to my wife, no matter how uncomfortable the conversation.

- Capt K - "Prestige is like a powerful magnet that warps even your beliefs about what you enjoy. If you want to make ambitious people waste their time on errands, bait the hook with prestige." - Paul Graham
 
CaptK:
This thread has exploded with opinions, so I'll keep mine simple. Marriage can work, and I think it's a good thing. There is one huge caveat - get a FUCKING prenump. Allow me to tell you a story about one of my best friends from college.

That story is just fucking awful, but I can't help laughing my ass off.

My feeling is that, if you feel like you must have a pre-nup, don't even think about getting married. Even if you have the best of intentions and live the life of a saint, the person you marry is a complete wild card. If you've got too much skin in the game, it just isn't worth the risk.

 
Edmundo Braverman:
My feeling is that, if you feel like you must have a pre-nup, don't even think about getting married. Even if you have the best of intentions and live the life of a saint, the person you marry is a complete wild card. If you've got too much skin in the game, it just isn't worth the risk.

If this is too personal, you (obviously) don't have to answer it. But, it sounds like you didn't get the pre-nup? If so, I imagine you must of considered it, so why exactly did you decide not to? I'm honestly not trying to pry, just figure some of us young guys could learn from the experience/thought-process.

 

I would reserve judgement on that one. For 6 years you thought she was a great person and a catch, yet now she is nut. Does that mean she went crazy, or does that mean your judgement was off? Either of those could apply to Scott as well. BTK killer's wife lived in the same house with him for years, and never had even an inkling of what her husband was up to. I'm not saying that Scott is like BTK, but if he is a sociopath and abused his wife, even as a close friend you wouldn't necessarily know. Don't make far-reaching conclusions based on your interpretation of the limited information you've been given about someone else's situation, and definitely don't apply those conclusions to your life. If you are worried about the financial aspect, 1) marry in a state that has equitable distribution rather than community property (NYC is equitable distribution for example), 2) marry your equal: socioeconomically and in looks department. Obviously, procreating with someone with superior genes is not your top concern, and you are not willing to balance the scale with something you are superior in

CaptK:
This thread has exploded with opinions, so I'll keep mine simple. Marriage can work, and I think it's a good thing. There is one huge caveat - get a FUCKING prenump. Allow me to tell you a story about one of my best friends from college.

My friend (let's call him Scott) had dated the same girl since freshman year of college. She went to a different school, but came around often enough that we all felt as though we knew and were friends with her. They were a great couple, and she seemed like a good catch. After dating for 6 years, they finally married 2 years after college graduation and bought a house together. We all attended their wedding, toasted the bride, and it looked like they were set for a great life together. Scott was working in banking and had just been promoted to associate, and his wife worked as a teacher. 6 months after their wedding, Scott's wife leaves on a family vacation. When she returns, she has a confession to make. She met "a guy" during the trip, and they had sex. Scott is obviously incensed, but eventually decides he wants to work it out. They enroll in couples therapy. After one session, she tells Scott she is not in love any more, and wants a divorce. Scott wants to work it out, but it's not up to him. They separate - she continues living in the house that Scott bought (with his money), while he is in a 1br apartment.

One day, a process server arrives on his doorstep. Scott's wife has accused him of battery and assault, and has filed a restraining order against him. Scott and I are extremely close - he swears the accusations have no merit, and everyone else that knows him agrees. Still, he is barred from even entering his own house if his wife is there. He stops by one day to pick some things up while she is out, only to find a copy of "Men Who Hate Women, and the Women Who Love Them" sitting on the nightstand. Turns out that she's recently been diagnosed with bipolar disorder, and truly believes the whole thing is Scott's fault.

How does it end? Scott is now divorced at 26, and his wife took the house, half his money, and half of everything he owned. Half of everything he earned slaving away in banking, while she continues to work as a part time teacher and live in the house that he bought. Every single one of us knew her for 6 years, and nobody saw it coming.

Moral of the story - no matter how long you've dated or how well you think you know her - shit happens. GET A FUCKING PRENUMP. I hope to get married one day as well, but you'd better believe I'll be telling Scott's story to my wife, no matter how uncomfortable the conversation.

More is good, all is better
 
Best Response
Argonaut:
I would reserve judgement on that one. For 6 years you thought she was a great person and a catch, yet now she is nut. Does that mean she went crazy, or does that mean your judgement was off? Either of those could apply to Scott as well. BTK killer's wife lived in the same house with him for years, and never had even an inkling of what her husband was up to. I'm not saying that Scott is like BTK, but if he is a sociopath and abused his wife, even as a close friend you wouldn't necessarily know. Don't make far-reaching conclusions based on your interpretation of the limited information you've been given about someone else's situation, and definitely don't apply those conclusions to your life. If you are worried about the financial aspect, 1) marry in a state that has equitable distribution rather than community property (NYC is equitable distribution for example), 2) marry your equal: socioeconomically and in looks department. Obviously, procreating with someone with superior genes is not your top concern, and you are not willing to balance the scale with something you are superior in
CaptK:
This thread has exploded with opinions, so I'll keep mine simple. Marriage can work, and I think it's a good thing. There is one huge caveat - get a FUCKING prenump. Allow me to tell you a story about one of my best friends from college.
So let me get this straight. In a single post you have accused me of being a poor judge of character and implied that I'm chasing ugly/undesirable women (without "superior genes"). I believe you also insinuated that my money is the only thing I have going for me. You've also accused one of my best friends of domestic violence.

Go fuck yourself.

- Capt K - "Prestige is like a powerful magnet that warps even your beliefs about what you enjoy. If you want to make ambitious people waste their time on errands, bait the hook with prestige." - Paul Graham
 

Here's a thought -- escort comments aside:

I can spend the rest of my life with someone and raise three kids and have a stable and happy family and the fact if I was married or not is completely irrelevant. It has more to do with compatibility, correct? Who's to say that an unmarried couple can not achieve the same level of happiness and family unity as married couple?

Good topic Eddie. I've very much enjoyed the responses thus far.

In 1976, James Hunt broke the sound barrier through Eau Rouge only to retire before the event finished... following the race he had sex with three Belgian nurses at the clubhouse near La Source.
 
James Hunt:
Here's a thought -- escort comments aside:

I can spend the rest of my life with someone and raise three kids and have a stable and happy family and the fact if I was married or not is completely irrelevant. It has more to do with compatibility, correct? Who's to say that an unmarried couple can not achieve the same level of happiness and family unity as married couple?

And you will do all of this without ever committing your life to that person?

If you never actually get married in this arrangement, will you ever discuss the level of commitment you and your wife will make?

Will you define the boundaries of the relationship? (marriage = fidelity/monogamy)

Don't you think your children would prefer their parents to be married?

When I see statements like yours, I understand the appeal. It seems easier to just have a relationship without marriage, it seems less complicated. But it is actually MORE complicated. There are so many ambiguities, so many things left unsaid.

Instead, marriage beautifully opens it, removing complication and ambiguity:

I, (name), take you, (name), to be my wife. I promise to be true to you in good times and in bad, in sickness and in health. I will love you and honor you all the days of my life.

With this ring I thee wed; this gold and silver I thee give; with my body I thee worship; and with all my worldly goods I thee endow.

********************************* “The American father is never seen in London. He passes his life entirely in Wall Street and communicates with his family once a month by means of a telegram in cipher.” - Oscar Wilde
 
veritas14:
James Hunt:
Here's a thought -- escort comments aside:

I can spend the rest of my life with someone and raise three kids and have a stable and happy family and the fact if I was married or not is completely irrelevant. It has more to do with compatibility, correct? Who's to say that an unmarried couple can not achieve the same level of happiness and family unity as married couple?

And you will do all of this without ever committing your life to that person?

If you never actually get married in this arrangement, will you ever discuss the level of commitment you and your wife will make?

Will you define the boundaries of the relationship? (marriage = fidelity/monogamy)

Don't you think your children would prefer their parents to be married?

When I see statements like yours, I understand the appeal. It seems easier to just have a relationship without marriage, it seems less complicated. But it is actually MORE complicated. There are so many ambiguities, so many things left unsaid.

Instead, marriage beautifully opens it, removing complication and ambiguity:

I, (name), take you, (name), to be my wife. I promise to be true to you in good times and in bad, in sickness and in health. I will love you and honor you all the days of my life.

With this ring I thee wed; this gold and silver I thee give; with my body I thee worship; and with all my worldly goods I thee endow.

who the hell uses this shit ..every one knows it isn't official until you change your face book status

 
shorttheworld:
i have never seen so many moral police championing the idea of marriage otherwise our society will fall apart and collapse in an inferno

Former Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan would like to invite you to read his report.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Negro_Family:_The_Case_For_National_Ac…

********************************* “The American father is never seen in London. He passes his life entirely in Wall Street and communicates with his family once a month by means of a telegram in cipher.” - Oscar Wilde
 

Great post, have this argument with my girlfriend every so often. Sometimes I can see myself getting married other times not, obviously I'm still young and can't see that far ahead or if I even want kids (changes from day to day lol). I don't think that stigma of being unmarried has really gone away especially for women. Maybe it is because I come from a Latin American home and have only dated Latin women, but if you don't pop the question after X amount of years with someone, then your family and hers start getting in your business and make things worse.

I also agree with the idea of cohabitation before engagement and lengthier dating period (or at least waiting til you're older to get married, 30s???). Times have changed, A LOT, people do live longer and temptations are worse, get married because you want to not because you HAVE to or "she's walking out". Have a life with your partner before kids consume it, then you can build on your memories, start a family and enjoy your kids (not wait til they are 18 so they can move out).

I wanted to touch on engagement rings and all these damn wedding shows (wedding industry brings in more than $40BN/year http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedding_industry_in_the_United_States) that embeds this notion that if your not paying a few grand on an engagement ring and another 10 or 20k on the wedding then she will be devastated and is unappreciated. If you have the CF for that fine, spend $100k on a ring, otherwise you should think worse case scenario. If you spend X amount on ring and the wedding and you lost your job how long can you survive for?

And finally back to engagement rings, a while back my brother started talking about the idea of an engagement watch with his girlfriend, which basically states:

since marriage isn't that necessary for a man, and you can view it as we get the short end of the stick, if we are spending a few grand on a ring, plus giving up freedoms, is it not fair that we get an engagement watch of equal value.

I decided to run with this idea and I have not found any females that disagree lol. Just a thought, but I would prefer if the connection of karat size and love disband altogether (and the single friend that can't find a husband kept her opinions to herself). They only became standard in the 30s!!! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engagement_ring)

 
cfaboston28:
I haven't read all the comments and not sure if somene mentioned already about a recent research from Time Magazine on Marriages. It says Men want to marry more than women.

This is in the current issue. Just in case if anyone of you want to read, go to the store and get it.

Probably because laundry doesn't do itself...

If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses - Henry Ford
 

Funniest thing I've read in this thread is the idea of doing everything that you do in a marriage and having everything you have in a marriage without getting married. I don't really see the benefit of not being married at that point. Sort of a "looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it's a duck" situation. So, why not just get married. Plus, you get to have an awesome ceremony and party and get government benefits. Really a win-win situation.

 

You bring up good points and I'll address a few of them.

James Hunt:
Here's a thought -- escort comments aside:

I can spend the rest of my life with someone and raise three kids and have a stable and happy family and the fact if I was married or not is completely irrelevant. It has more to do with compatibility, correct? Who's to say that an unmarried couple can not achieve the same level of happiness and family unity as married couple?

veritas14:
And you will do all of this without ever committing your life to that person?

I'm confident that anyone can make a full commitment to someone without the title of marriage. I know plenty of couples (families) who have done this. I'd would even venture to say that those couples are even more happy together then some of my married friends (but that is subjective to my personal experience).

It might be unconventional in western society but that doesn't necessarily make it out of place in its entirety.

veritas14:
If you never actually get married in this arrangement, will you ever discuss the level of commitment you and your wife will make?

Will you define the boundaries of the relationship? (marriage = fidelity/monogamy)

Of course. For example, we all know certain states don't allow homosexual marriage but I wouldn't challenge the level of commitment a gay/lesbian couple is willing to make compared to an unmarried heterosexual couple.

My personal feeling is that commitment level is all what you make it to be. A marriage license or sacred ritual isn't going to prevent infidelity or abuse in a relationship. If I have committed to a respected and honest monogamous relationship then my word and loyalty is all that matters, married or not.

veritas14:
Don't you think your children would prefer their parents to be married?

I am sure my children would prefer that I respect and care for my significant other far more before the title of marriage comes into the equation. There are plenty of married families in America which are completely broken and the children of said families are the ones that suffer from it. Marriage doesn't guarantee stability (just look at the divorce numbers) and cohabitation doesn't guarantee instability.

--In no way am I knocking down on marriage, and I hope that wasn't the idea taken from my original post. My original intention was to just share a different view point. Marriage is excellent and important for those who desire it, but it cannot be expected that everyone should feel the same way about it. I, for one, interpret marriage differently for myself just as you and the rest of this board see it differently for your own individual person.

In 1976, James Hunt broke the sound barrier through Eau Rouge only to retire before the event finished... following the race he had sex with three Belgian nurses at the clubhouse near La Source.
 
James Hunt:
You bring up good points and I'll address a few of them.
James Hunt:
Here's a thought -- escort comments aside:

I can spend the rest of my life with someone and raise three kids and have a stable and happy family and the fact if I was married or not is completely irrelevant. It has more to do with compatibility, correct? Who's to say that an unmarried couple can not achieve the same level of happiness and family unity as married couple?

veritas14:
And you will do all of this without ever committing your life to that person?

I'm confident that anyone can make a full commitment to someone without the title of marriage. I know plenty of couples (families) who have done this. I'd would even venture to say that those couples are even more happy together then some of my married friends (but that is subjective to my personal experience).

It might be unconventional in western society but that doesn't necessarily make it out of place in its entirety.

veritas14:
If you never actually get married in this arrangement, will you ever discuss the level of commitment you and your wife will make?

Will you define the boundaries of the relationship? (marriage = fidelity/monogamy)

Of course. For example, we all know certain states don't allow homosexual marriage but I wouldn't challenge the level of commitment a gay/lesbian couple is willing to make compared to an unmarried heterosexual couple.

My personal feeling is that commitment level is all what you make it to be. A marriage license or sacred ritual isn't going to prevent infidelity or abuse in a relationship. If I have committed to a respected and honest monogamous relationship then my word and loyalty is all that matters, married or not.

veritas14:
Don't you think your children would prefer their parents to be married?

I am sure my children would prefer that I respect and care for my significant other far more before the title of marriage comes into the equation. There are plenty of married families in America which are completely broken and the children of said families are the ones that suffer from it. Marriage doesn't guarantee stability (just look at the divorce numbers) and cohabitation doesn't guarantee instability.

--In no way am I knocking down on marriage, and I hope that wasn't the idea taken from my original post. My original intention was to just share a different view point. Marriage is excellent and important for those who desire it, but it cannot be expected that everyone should feel the same way about it. I, for one, interpret marriage differently for myself just as you and the rest of this board see it differently for your own individual person.

Appreciate the thoughtful response. It's hard to shake the common sense reality that your well thought out articulations are simply impossible in reality. Traditions matter. Symbols matter. Labels and status matter. Society matters.

Also, it smacks of relativism...

********************************* “The American father is never seen in London. He passes his life entirely in Wall Street and communicates with his family once a month by means of a telegram in cipher.” - Oscar Wilde
 
veritas14:
James Hunt:
You bring up good points and I'll address a few of them.
James Hunt:
Here's a thought -- escort comments aside:

I can spend the rest of my life with someone and raise three kids and have a stable and happy family and the fact if I was married or not is completely irrelevant. It has more to do with compatibility, correct? Who's to say that an unmarried couple can not achieve the same level of happiness and family unity as married couple?

veritas14:
And you will do all of this without ever committing your life to that person?

I'm confident that anyone can make a full commitment to someone without the title of marriage. I know plenty of couples (families) who have done this. I'd would even venture to say that those couples are even more happy together then some of my married friends (but that is subjective to my personal experience).

It might be unconventional in western society but that doesn't necessarily make it out of place in its entirety.

veritas14:
If you never actually get married in this arrangement, will you ever discuss the level of commitment you and your wife will make?

Will you define the boundaries of the relationship? (marriage = fidelity/monogamy)

Of course. For example, we all know certain states don't allow homosexual marriage but I wouldn't challenge the level of commitment a gay/lesbian couple is willing to make compared to an unmarried heterosexual couple.

My personal feeling is that commitment level is all what you make it to be. A marriage license or sacred ritual isn't going to prevent infidelity or abuse in a relationship. If I have committed to a respected and honest monogamous relationship then my word and loyalty is all that matters, married or not.

veritas14:
Don't you think your children would prefer their parents to be married?

I am sure my children would prefer that I respect and care for my significant other far more before the title of marriage comes into the equation. There are plenty of married families in America which are completely broken and the children of said families are the ones that suffer from it. Marriage doesn't guarantee stability (just look at the divorce numbers) and cohabitation doesn't guarantee instability.

--In no way am I knocking down on marriage, and I hope that wasn't the idea taken from my original post. My original intention was to just share a different view point. Marriage is excellent and important for those who desire it, but it cannot be expected that everyone should feel the same way about it. I, for one, interpret marriage differently for myself just as you and the rest of this board see it differently for your own individual person.

Appreciate the thoughtful response. It's hard to shake the common sense reality that your well thought out articulations are simply impossible in reality. Traditions matter. Symbols matter. Labels and status matter. Society matters.

Also, it smacks of relativism...

Oh man. Does Society mean old boring married people to you?

If so ... http://www.amazon.com/Having-More-Fun-Than-You/dp/0061805211

 

My experience has been that men also go through a mild crisis when they hit 30. It seems to be the age where they re-evaluate where their life is heading. Many also seem to just decide that they might as well settle down now and have a family because that's what is expected. I can always tell the guys apart that seem to have made marriage their next goal because dates are more like an interview lol.

I'm not against marriage but have never really seen it as something I must do in life. I already have a failed relationship under my belt with a child that I am the sole provider and parent for. I cannot say that I have met anyone the past few years where I truly felt like I wanted to create a life with them. I'm also scared shitless of getting dragged thru the court systems for the custody and child support issues as I have seen way to many friends go through it. I watched one very successful woman get dragged through the courts for four years by her ex and went from making over six figures to living with her parents because she couldn't keep up with the legal costs. Then she lost her job because of all the ex parte hearings her ex filed that she had to show up to. Now her ex (who was at the time a very successful professional) refuses to find employment and is requesting child support modification so that SHE pays him! Worst part is this is probably going to happen since in the name of equality child support payments are solely based off formulas.

I would love to be able to trust someone enough to not want a pre-nup but the fact is people change over time... you can try to do your best and choose someone you think has good character and solid values but... just think about how different you now are than you were just five years ago. It really seems like a crapshoot in the end because it's not just about being with someone you love but finding the person you can grow with instead of apart in life. It takes major dedication and daily commitment to staying happily married. Not to say that it isn't worth it... but so so important to choose wisely who you are dedicating all that energy and commitment to. Personally the idea of it just makes me tired so I'm passing on it for now at least.

I think here in America that marriage is much more of a necessity than when compared to Scandinavian countries. Here it is very hard to make ends meet on your own unless you have an above average job. The social welfare systems of the Scandinavian countries make it much easier to be a single parent because of the paid healthcare, family leave, daycare subsidies, etc. I see a huge difference in attitude towards marriage between the cultures that I think stem largely from the fact that in one it's just not as necessary financially.

 

This thread got a lot more responses than I might have guessed. My two cents:

1.) Professionally, being married - even if you get divorced and remarry or something - is an asset. I can't tell you how many events I've been to with partner-level guys, and every single one of them (i mean guys age 40+) is there with his wife. Eventually, most people settle down, and even if that doesn't include kids, it does include getting married. And if you want to fit in with the senior people, you can't be a 50-year-old bachelor. People look at you funny if you pull that shit.

2.) When you're 20-35, sure, being single is great, but when you're 60, it's generally an asset to have a significant other who's not going to ditch you. The assumption here seems the be that women will stick around forever even if you don't get married, but I think we all know that no girlfriend is going to be cool with that. So if you're looking for a long-term relationship, sorry, you have to tie the knot. If you're looking for a succession of semi-long-term relationships (i.e. you date someone for 3 years and then she moves on because you won't marry her), you're eventually going to end up old and fat and with only gold-diggers to choose from.

3.) Finally, if you're worried that your significant other is just after your money, dump her and find someone who's not. If you can't spot a gold-digger, I feel for you, but unless you're an idiot, you won't get into a long-term relationship with someone who only wants money.

One of those lights, slightly brighter than the rest, will be my wingtip passing over.
 
2x2Matrix:
Professionally, being married - even if you get divorced and remarry or something - is an asset. I can't tell you how many events I've been to with partner-level guys, and every single one of them (i mean guys age 40+) is there with his wife. Eventually, most people settle down, and even if that doesn't include kids, it does include getting married. And if you want to fit in with the senior people, you can't be a 50-year-old bachelor. People look at you funny if you pull that shit.

Furthermore, in my limited experience, being in a relationship actually improves your focus/productivity. For one thing, you don't spend so much time thinking about and trying to get laid. Similarly, you don't spend as much time going out and drinking, which means you're spending more time relaxing/recouping, which allows you to be more productive during working hours. Also, you have somebody who can calm you down, and help you forget about the stresses of work. So I echo the words of wisdom above, namely that relationships can be a serious asset, at least in my personal experience. By the way, I'm only 25, so take it with a grain of salt.

 
2x2Matrix:
This thread got a lot more responses than I might have guessed. My two cents:

1.) Professionally, being married - even if you get divorced and remarry or something - is an asset. I can't tell you how many events I've been to with partner-level guys, and every single one of them (i mean guys age 40+) is there with his wife. Eventually, most people settle down, and even if that doesn't include kids, it does include getting married. And if you want to fit in with the senior people, you can't be a 50-year-old bachelor. People look at you funny if you pull that shit.

2.) When you're 20-35, sure, being single is great, but when you're 60, it's generally an asset to have a significant other who's not going to ditch you. The assumption here seems the be that women will stick around forever even if you don't get married, but I think we all know that no girlfriend is going to be cool with that. So if you're looking for a long-term relationship, sorry, you have to tie the knot. If you're looking for a succession of semi-long-term relationships (i.e. you date someone for 3 years and then she moves on because you won't marry her), you're eventually going to end up old and fat and with only gold-diggers to choose from.

3.) Finally, if you're worried that your significant other is just after your money, dump her and find someone who's not. If you can't spot a gold-digger, I feel for you, but unless you're an idiot, you won't get into a long-term relationship with someone who only wants money.

1) I'd like to think that things will be different for my generation once we get there in 20 years. I don't see what's wrong with bringing your long-time girlfriend.

2) If you are really successful, there's no need to lock yourself in until you are 50 though. We just had a thread about a guy freaking out because his successful 51-year old father married a 20 year old. Much better to seal the deal at 50 to a 20, than at 20 to a 20, given that you have been successful.

3) In the US this isn't too big of an issue, there are tons of legal ways to protect yourself. But I think you underestimate how cunning some women can be. ALSO, you can NEVER be sure that a marriage won't end for some reason. Even if you marry someone who isn't a gold digger, if the marriage doesn't work out for some reason then it could still cost you half.

 

Wow there is a lot of immature bitching from arrogant early 20s types in here.

Marriage is not a trap invented by woman. That makes 0 sense given that men have been in charge for most of history.

Marriage (1-1 matchups) is good for societal harmony. In free for all (and even many polygamous) societies, what tends to happen is that the 'alpha-males' (probably not you) monopolize all the women, and a bunch of lonely, pissed off betas have no incentive not to engage in murderous, antisocial behavior (no stake in society).

Also, there is plenty of fighting and anti social behavior among the alphas (and even the women) because they're constantly competing for mates (instead of being more or less locked down by 1-1 relationships).

Even in modern society I think the vast majority of people will be happier married.

 

The problem with marriage is that young morons, who think love is fireworks, get married to someone they have nothing in common with. Wait until you are older and know who you are. Then get married.

Marriage is fine if you marry someone who has their own shit going on. Don't marry a loser and you will be fine.

Crushing bitches is a lot of fun, but after a while some people start wanting to do bigger things with their lives. This is not about judging people who want to be single all the time, but if you want to build a company, create a legacy, etc, it is much easier to have a partner through it.

The only think that the OP's article tells me is finally, dumb fucks are holding off on making a bad decision. Marriage is for big boys. No kids need apply.

 

I didn't bother reading all the comments because I know I'll have to reply to about 75% of them. On the point of marriage and kids. Yes I believe marriage and kids go hand in hand and if you don't plan to have kids then marriage might not make that much sense. I'm sure there are people that don't plan to have kids in their life time (that's ok), but are they the majority? I doubt that. Financial considerations should be secondary in marriage if they are primary then i believe it's starting from the wrong end. If you rich and your spouse is poor (just taking two extremes), I hope you are on the grounds where you know you enjoy each other the same if both were equal.

Pre-ups are very strange. They make sense on one hand, but have underlying flaws, so I'm still undecided on that one.

I believe the current trend is one where people are getting married way later than before early 30s through 40s. This has something to do with more people moving to urban areas (as people are still traditional in rural areas). The economic crises have contributed to people focusing on their careers to reach a level of financial stability where they can start families, which is pretty late nowadays. People are probably having less kids as well because of these factors (later marriages, less finances). Our society (again mostly urban) is becoming naturally more liberal and so traditional aspects of marriage go away and more philosophical and practical are considered. I don't think marriage is dead as marriage has underlying benefits just like having a family has underlying benefits. I don't measure these benefits in financial terms but in "units" of happiness. Maybe with urbanization, economics and so on marriage will change in some ways, but I don't believe it will die.

Do what you want not what you can!
 

Unless you're looking to tie up your assets and get a tax break, then marriage is very optional prior to having children.

But! Marriage is very important prior to having kids. It's important for a kid to have a stable family, and being married on paper is certainly a good way help keep things stable. There's a reason they call it wed-"lock". Once you have a kid, your happiness with your spouse is not the only important thing...

 

Saying marriage does or doesn't work, is pointless. It depends on who is getting married. Setting artificial age limits is pointless as well (within reason, I'm not saying 17 year olds should get married).

One friend of mine got married a couple of years ago at the age of 31 to someone who was an idiot, a compulsive liar, and habitual spender of money. She made a small fraction of what he made and was never appreciative for anything he provided...she basically wanted to live like a movie star. Of course, my friend was no saint either...he has anger and other issues that he needs to deal with.

Amazingly, it didn't work out.

My guess is that these two people should not have been married, not just to each other, but to anyone. They just aren't suited to be married to someone. It's not like this was a big surprise to those of us who knew them. The over/under for divorce was set at 2 years. The paperwork was filed within 2 years, but was finalized after 2 years, so I don't actually know who wins the bet.

Another friend of mine has been involved with someone for more than ten years. They have kids. Everything about them says they are married: they had a ceremony, wear rings, live together, have kids, etc. However, they never actually signed any marriage documents. Even though it seems stupid to me that they aren't married, given all of the legal benefits of marriage (there's a reason gay people are fighting for the right to marry), it works for them.

As for pre-nups, I don't think they work for first marriages. You usually don't have that much in assets anyway and it sets a really bad tone. Anything you accumulate while you are married gets split 50/50 most of the time and I don't believe a pre-nup will effect that much anyway. However, if you are both divorced, a pre-nup might make sense. You have proven that marriage may not be for you once already.

By the time you get to my age almost everyone you know is married. People eventually want to have kids and build a family with someone they love. As for me, I got married when I was 24 and have been married for more than 10 years. I think it's been great.

 

I'm probably somewhat unusual for a guy in his early 20s, but I want to get married. I also want a kid, ideally before 30. I grew up in a dysfunctional single parent household, and would not want my own kid to go through that. I feel somewhat compelled to build that traditional family unit, because it was something I never had.

But I think a prenup is only reasonable, especially for guys in finance. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that we have comparatively high earnings potential. I personally tend to date people on the lower end of the income scale - teachers, artists, nurses (actually not that bad), etc. I am unlikely to date, let alone marry, a corporate lawyer/banker - I do not want a girlfriend who has a nuanced opinion on the Sprint / Softbank deal.

If a girl is dead-set against a prenup, run. By the time you are talking about it, you will probably be in a fairly serious relationship. Make sure that she would be provided for, but also make sure she isn't living in luxury if you really succeed. Ask Charles Brandes: http://blogs.wsj.com/wealth/2011/01/25/when-6-million-a-year-isnt-enoug…

 

[quote=West Coast rainmaker]If a girl is dead-set against a prenup, run. By the time you are talking about it, you will probably be in a fairly serious relationship. Make sure that she would be provided for, but also make sure she isn't living in luxury if you really succeed. Ask Charles Brandes: http://blogs.wsj.com/wealth/2011/01/25/when-6-million-a-year-isnt-enoug…]

Lol that dude must be the most miserable fuck ever. He has to pay his wife 1/32 of his income and he fights her. Like, who cares? People have their priorities so out of whack it's ridiculous. Even if he paid her half, that would still leave him $8M a month! Hell, if you can't be happy with $8K a month, there's something wrong with you.

I believe that if you get married, you are entering into a contract and she deserves half (provided the marriage lasts a decently long period of time). You guys fail to consider just how important a marriage can be to your financial success. Having a hot chick to fuck you after a long day at work; go with you to meet clients, business colleagues, etc; help run the household and have kids with; and probably provide additional income as well; that stuff will help your career more than you can imagine. Guys who bitch about the financial risk of marriage are either idiots who fail to understand how qualitative factors have value; or they married worthless gold diggers because that was all they could get.

My dad pays my mom half. I don't think he'd be anywhere near as successful as he is today if it weren't for her. If you have kids, you will pay the mother of your children half, if for no other reason that the kids you love so much got half their genetic code from her.

I'm not saying everyone should get married or that prenups are worthless, but people who say "don't get married solely because it's a stupid financial decision" should be cognizant of the fact that, for some guys at least, it's a great financial decision. If you don't want to enter into a legal agreement, then fine. Two companies can do business together and not merge. But don't expect to have the same legal protections on your end either if one day the tables turn against you for whatever reason.

I will probably get a pre-nup when I get married. It will probably be just to protect myself in the event that I DON'T make a lot of money or end up in some situation where you have to pay out alimony on phantom income or something like that. Getting a prenup that says "if I make $100K a year, she gets half; but if I make $100M a year, she gets $1M"...like go fuck yourself if you think that makes any sense whatsoever, as that is exactly what the author of that article is implying.

 

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Array
 

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