On The 9s

I try pretty hard not to write about politics. Since 2008, I have a harder and harder time seeing where Wall Street ends and Washington begins. With that said, once in a while a politician comes along that makes me feel like he is not a politician at all. In the case of Herman Cain, it is not a feeling. It is a reality.

Let me be clear, I don't want to turn this into a thread recapping last night's debate or debating party policy. I would instead like to focus on Cain's 9-9-9 tax plan. It has taken a lot of heat in the media and could turn into one of those subjects where a lie told often enough, becomes the truth. So, before we get to that point I would like to know how you guys look at it.

Is Cain's tax plan a viable alternative to our current set up? Here is the man in his own words. You be the judge.

Comments (69)

Oct 12, 2011

I think this plan is workable, and vastly preferable to the labyrinthine mess we have now. At the very least, the corporate income tax change would make the USA more attractive to foreign businesses, while eliminating the "tax lawyer / offshore holding" game.

I prefer the Fairtax though. I agree with the reporter that having two rates is asking for future manipulation. While employment is normally higher, some unemployment is unavoidable; those people should not be paying 9%. Likewise, the working poor do exist (albeit in somewhat smaller numbers than the media claims), and this would represent a tax hike. Fairtax is a flat consumption tax that, through rebates, ensures 0 liability up through $25,000 (I think) in income.

But, overall, I like the idea of a national sales tax or VAT. Consumption is far too attractive in our country, so spurring higher savings might be a smart long term plan.

The 2/3 vote in the senate to change rates is a little scary; it reminds me of CA's 2/3 vote to pass a budget. Under this plan, I would like to see a balanced budget amendment that automatically adjusts the rate. Perhaps such a plan would deter hawkish foreign policy.

Oct 12, 2011

I love Cain. I think Romney will get the nod and I am fine with it, but I find the attacks from the left wing black community to be disgusting. Cain is an educated and successful black person and regardless of political affiliation, all blacks should be proud of Cain and what he represents.

Oct 12, 2011
ANT:

I love Cain. I think Romney will get the nod and I am fine with it, but I find the attacks from the left wing black community to be disgusting. Cain is an educated and successful black person and regardless of political affiliation, all blacks should be proud of Cain and what he represents.

But the attacks on Obama from the white right wing community are not disgusting? Stick to talking about the fucking tax policy.

Oct 12, 2011
coach.captain:
ANT:

I love Cain. I think Romney will get the nod and I am fine with it, but I find the attacks from the left wing black community to be disgusting. Cain is an educated and successful black person and regardless of political affiliation, all blacks should be proud of Cain and what he represents.

But the attacks on Obama from the white right wing community are not disgusting? Stick to talking about the fucking tax policy.

I'm pretty sure people criticize Obama because he's incompetent, not because he's black.

I think 9-9-9 is a good first step (a gigantic leap for liberal American mankind). If you need any tax revenue, the VAT is efficient, which is one reason why it is so insidious to Europeans. As Becker writes on the Becker-Posner blog:

The downside of a value added tax to anyone concerned about growing government spending and taxing is very much related to its upside; namely, that a VAT is a more efficient and relatively painless tax.

http://www.becker-posner-blog.com/2010/04/should-t...

Oct 13, 2011
coach.captain:
ANT:

I love Cain. I think Romney will get the nod and I am fine with it, but I find the attacks from the left wing black community to be disgusting. Cain is an educated and successful black person and regardless of political affiliation, all blacks should be proud of Cain and what he represents.

But the attacks on Obama from the white right wing community are not disgusting? Stick to talking about the fucking tax policy.

I think the 'attacks' you are referring to are more generally known as criticism of his failing policies.

Oh, you see what I did there...I used the word 'failing'...score one for the 'attack' column.

Regards

Oct 12, 2011
Midas Mulligan Magoo:

I would instead like to focus on Cain's 9-9-9 tax plan.

ANT, I think you missed this part.

Oct 12, 2011
duffmt6:
Midas Mulligan Magoo:

I would instead like to focus on Cain's 9-9-9 tax plan.

ANT, I think you missed this part.

If you are going to ask me out on a date, just do it already.

Yo, Midas, do you mind me going slightly off topic?

Oct 12, 2011
ANT:
duffmt6:
Midas Mulligan Magoo:

I would instead like to focus on Cain's 9-9-9 tax plan.

ANT, I think you missed this part.

If you are going to ask me out on a date, just do it already.

Yo, Midas, do you mind me going slightly off topic?

Just trolling the troll. Tired of reading your off topic rants.

Oct 12, 2011

Cain's 9-9-9 plan is only phase 2. Check out his website. He plans to use the 9-9-9 to later install a fair tax. I'm not all against this, I think it's great to remove the deductions and loopholes. This would completely change the asset management business though. The only reason people buy muni bonds is because there's no capital gains tax on them. Cain's 9-9-9 plan drops the capital gains tax to a fat ol' goose egg, which I'm sure would kill demand for them.

yellow t-shirt

Oct 12, 2011
LancelotLink:

Cain's 9-9-9 plan is only phase 2. Check out his website. He plans to use the 9-9-9 to later install a fair tax. I'm not all against this, I think it's great to remove the deductions and loopholes. This would completely change the asset management business though. The only reason people buy muni bonds is because there's no capital gains tax on them. Cain's 9-9-9 plan drops the capital gains tax to a fat ol' goose egg, which I'm sure would kill demand for them.

Interesting. I am liking Cain more, but I am a little concerned by his lack of foreign policy experience.

Also, I think he would have no shot versus Obama. Obama is an extremely polished politician, and an excellent orator. Cain would have to ride an enormous wave of populism into the white house, enough to overcome the "southerners talk weird, and are therefore dumb" stereotype. W did not help with that.

As for the muni bond issue, they are currently being subsidized by the state/federal government. States would either need to make greater distributions to municipalities to cover higher interest rates, or lend to them directly.

Oct 12, 2011

I'd like to see a little more analysis on the example he gave, but overall I think it would be a dramatic improvement over what we have now. I'd rather pay 9% than 35% any day. But I do think you have to be careful on the VAT, because it gets added in at each stage of production and has proved insidious to European consumers, who take the hit on increased prices on consumer goods.

Metal. Music. Life. www.headofmetal.com

Oct 12, 2011

I like the Fair Tax. I have said it on here a few times, Neil Boortz seems like a nice guy who isn't out to change the tax code just for monetary gain (when I met him at CPAC), and overall I love it. If corporate taxes = 0 then cap gains should equal the income tax, which in the Fair tax = 0. I think he could beat Obama simply because everyone thinks that Obama is gonna have a 2008 voting bloc. The enthusiasm surrounding him is far lower than in 2008, and remember, he only beat McCain by 4% riding that first wave.

Reality hits you hard, bro...

Oct 13, 2011

In a constitutionally limited government, the federal government wouldn't need to tax consumption or income. Tariffs and fees royalties from off-shore oil facilities would more than cover the defence of the USA, the department of justice and the FBI.

Cain has always struck me as a moron. When asked about America's foreign policy, he has said very foolish and childish things. 9 9 9 is unconstitutional. Where in the constitution is the federal government given the power to tax consumption? Also, why would any limited government minded person want to give the idiots in congress more power?

Whatever, people are sheep. 9 9 9!!!

I am not cocky, I am confident, and when you tell me I am the best it is a compliment.
-Styles P

Oct 13, 2011
eokpar02:

In a constitutionally limited government, the federal government wouldn't need to tax consumption or income. Tariffs and fees royalties from off-shore oil facilities would more than cover the defence of the USA, the department of justice and the FBI.

Cain has always struck me as a moron. When asked about America's foreign policy, he has said very foolish and childish things. 9 9 9 is unconstitutional. Where in the constitution is the federal government given the power to tax consumption? Also, why would any limited government minded person want to give the idiots in congress more power? Also, 999 doesn't cut government spending, it just replaces it.

Whatever, people are sheep. 9 9 9!!!

I am not cocky, I am confident, and when you tell me I am the best it is a compliment.
-Styles P

Oct 12, 2011

Yeah dude, I am a troll. Keep wasting space.

Oct 12, 2011

http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/taxes/story/20...
To play devils advocate, there are a lot of vested interests, on both sides of the aisle, who support these tax credits. I agree that eliminating them would be great, but I think it will be hard to gain support, Rep and Dem, to do this.

Oct 12, 2011

Cain's tax plan was created by a Financial Advisor in backwoods Ohio. I'm not sure it's been properly vetted.

Oct 12, 2011
Aviator:

Cain's tax plan was created by a Financial Advisor in backwoods Ohio. I'm not sure it's been properly vetted.

Haha really? My accounting professor always jokes he could draft a better tax code in an afternoon.

Isn't Cain's 9-9-9 plan slightly modeled after the "Chile Model" or is that just SS?

Oct 12, 2011

The Wall Street Executive vs. Main Street Executive point was very politically savvy on his part.

Oct 12, 2011

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax_in_the_Uni...
When income tax was first implemented, it was about 1-2% for bottom bracket and 7% for top bracket. WWI brought top bracket up to 77%, and afterward brought it back down to 24%. See what they did; hugh jump during the war, big decline, but not back to the previous level. It doesn't ever have appeared to have been brought back to the 7% level.

To think Cain's plan wouldn't do the same over the long-term is assanine. Only, as MMM mentions, its with TWO rates; one for income, and one for VAT. Its a clever idea, but it would need an iron clad (ie constitutional ammendment) backing for me to be convinced that it wont eventually become 30-30-30.

Jan 5, 2014

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Oct 12, 2011

This concept that what you earn isn't really yours is like a cancer that has been growing for so long it has taken over the body. Cain's plan might need work, but anything that cleans up the tax code and reduces taxes is a good thing. IMO, if you don't pay taxes you really should shut the fuck up when people are discussion tax issues. Too many mooches worried about what other people are doing.

If you are going to be a leech, be one. Sit there, suck off hard working Americans and shut your mouth, like a good leach.

Oct 12, 2011

Off-topic but has everyone seen Huntsman's daughters ? Off the charts hot. For that reason alone, I hope he wins.

Oct 13, 2011
Aviator:

Off-topic but has everyone seen Huntsman's daughters ? Off the charts hot. For that reason alone, I hope he wins.

You sure they aren't his other wives? Just kidding. Of course the hot brunette is married...just my luck. LOL.

Regards

Oct 12, 2011
ANT:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2023266/Pl...

Jeez, that one in the middle is off the charts!!!!!!!!

Oct 13, 2011
txjustin:
ANT:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2023266/Pl...

Jeez, that one in the middle is off the charts!!!!!!!!

I second that.

Oct 12, 2011

The issue raised by LIBOR is a big one IMHO. Like I said, the end result of a Fair Tax is great, but in order for that to happen we'd need to stretch it out over multiple presidencies, multiple business cycles, etc. If not, why not just move to a Fair tax now? Right now, I can see how "9-9-9" seems like an opening for a VAT...since one of those 9s is a VAT. It would have to be structured well.

Also, anyone see how Cain would not say what economists helped him come up with the numbers? I realize he used to be the Chairman of the Kansas City Fed, but still. I would like some elaboration.

Reality hits you hard, bro...

Oct 13, 2011
MMBinNC:

The issue raised by LIBOR is a big one IMHO. Like I said, the end result of a Fair Tax is great, but in order for that to happen we'd need to stretch it out over multiple presidencies, multiple business cycles, etc. If not, why not just move to a Fair tax now? Right now, I can see how "9-9-9" seems like an opening for a VAT...since one of those 9s is a VAT. It would have to be structured well.

Also, anyone see how Cain would not say what economists helped him come up with the numbers? I realize he used to be the Chairman of the Kansas City Fed, but still. I would like some elaboration.

I think his motive for not elaborating on his helper is that they would then be (potentially) targeted by the media as the next Chairman of the Fed, which could jeopardize that person's current career. Just a thought.

Regards

Oct 12, 2011

Too bad he will NEVER get the nomination from that party.

Oct 12, 2011

double post

Oct 12, 2011

I didn't realize we were talking about Obama. I thought this was a post about Cain? Please show me where I made racially disparaging remarks about Obama.

I reiterate. It is disgusting how the black community makes plantation and slavery remarks related to Cain. Sickening.

Oct 13, 2011
ANT:

I didn't realize we were talking about Obama. I thought this was a post about Cain? Please show me where I made racially disparaging remarks about Obama.

I reiterate. It is disgusting how the black community makes plantation and slavery remarks related to Cain. Sickening.

ANT, don't you know we are always talking about Obama? Well, unless of course you are talking about Obama...in which case we switch to talking about Bush.

Actually, I'm not sure how this game works.

Regards

Oct 13, 2011
ANT:

I reiterate. It is disgusting how the black community makes plantation and slavery remarks related to Cain. Sickening.

Which individual of repute has said anything nefarious about Mr. Cain?

I am not cocky, I am confident, and when you tell me I am the best it is a compliment.
-Styles P

Oct 13, 2011
eokpar02:
ANT:

I reiterate. It is disgusting how the black community makes plantation and slavery remarks related to Cain. Sickening.

Which individual of repute has said anything nefarious about Mr. Cain?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fxjQ5h6Ri4
and

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2011/10/10/...
Regards

Oct 12, 2011

Liberals are concerned with control. Not helping, not saving the poor, nothing of the sort. The poor, as they are always, are the pawns of the liberal elite.

Freedom and capitalism is the only thing that provides an opportunity for someone to raise themselves up. The larger the government, the less you can keep and invest for yourself.

How many millionaires were created in Communist Russia? How many in China before the economic reforms? How many in Cuba, North Korea?

Smaller government, less taxation and more freedoms are the ONLY way to an improved life.

Oct 12, 2011
ANT:

How many millionaires were created in Communist Russia?

lol there were a shit ton of billionaires created in the fall of communist russia though

Oct 13, 2011
Simple As...:
ANT:

How many millionaires were created in Communist Russia?

lol there were a shit ton of billionaires created in the fall of communist russia though

Good point. Maybe, if we are smart enough, we can all support Communism for a short period of time...then rig the whole system to get a comrade elected high ruler, or whatever the title will be, then he can dismantle the government and redistribute a shit ton of land and natural resources to his friends (of which, I'd be one) and then we can all have mega yacht competitions to pass the time. I'm shooting for a 1,000 foot, nuclear powered yacht

...or will it be 1,005 feet and powered by abnormally large gerbils?!?!? You won't know and that's why it's fun! LOL.

Regards

Oct 12, 2011

How about this.

I will 100% support an expansion of the Federal government. I will support government control of all businesses and everything else.

We cool Occupy Wall Street?

As soon as all this is passed I want a Republican to take control and just go correct wing on everything.

Oct 13, 2011
ANT:

How about this.

I will 100% support an expansion of the Federal government. I will support government control of all businesses and everything else.

We cool Occupy Wall Street?

As soon as all this is passed I want a Republican to take control and just go correct wing on everything.

I saw some signs on the news yesterday from the OWS crowd that read, "Tax the rich until they are poor". Haha. There. Is the problem solved now?!? LOL.

Regards

Oct 13, 2011

Being a Canadian I am with Bachman introducing a national sales tax is rather dangerous thing. Unless you expect Cain to be in power for the rest of time. Once you introduce it, the government will find a way to spend that extra form of income and it won't go away ever again. Then in 12 years from now the next Obama or someone like him could raise other taxes (Income tax from 9% to 20% on 200k+ earners) and keep the sales tax in place. Then the plan turns into the democratic 9-20-9 plan.

Oct 13, 2011

OWS is not about helping the poor, it is about taking wealth from the rich. Once that new tax revenue is injected into the blob we call the Federal government, it will get sucked up into new government jobs, new pensions, new benefits. Maybe, by the time the needy see the money, they will get 3 cents on the dollar.

Manipulating and using the poor and ignorant. A time tested and proven tactic.

Oct 13, 2011

Did you just quote yourself? lol

Oct 13, 2011

The income tax is unconstitutional- that is why we needed the 16th Amendment to have it today. No doubt a constitutional amendment would be needed for a VAT- which is prob why Comrade Obama has not instituted one yet. That is why I am skeptical about the "9-9-9" plan. It would probably be just as easy to pass an amendment that repealed the 16th Amendment and created a 30% VAT than 9-9-9 where the last 9 would be overturned almost immediately.

Reality hits you hard, bro...

Oct 13, 2011

Who cares about Cornell West? Does he work in the white house or do anything that affects anyone?

I am not cocky, I am confident, and when you tell me I am the best it is a compliment.
-Styles P

Oct 14, 2011
eokpar02:

Who cares about Cornell West? Does he work in the white house or do anything that affects anyone?

So before you wanted proof that someone of some legitimacy actually made deragatory claims about Cain. I provdided that and now you say that the person has to work at the White House in order to matter? I realize you're a liberal at heart, so maybe you can't help it, but could you stop moving the target?

Here's what Wikipedia has to say about West...

Wikipedia:

West also makes frequent appearances on the political talk show Real Time with Bill Maher.

West remains a widely cited scholar in the popular press in African-American Studies and Studies of Black Theology.

The recipient of more than 20 honorary degrees and an American Book Award, he is a long-time member of the Democratic Socialists of America, for which he now serves as Honorary Chair. He is also a co-chair of the Tikkun Community and the Network of Spiritual Progressives. West is on the Board of Directors of the International Bridges to Justice, among others. West is also much sought-after as a speaker, blurb-writer, and Honorary Chair.

...employed as a Professor at Princeton University

It would appear at least a few people care about him and what he has to say. And yes, as you can see from the text above, he impacts many people.

Thanks for playing.

Regards

Oct 15, 2011
cphbravo96:

So before you wanted proof that someone of some legitimacy actually made deragatory claims about Cain. I provdided that and now you say that the person has to work at the White House in order to matter? I realize you're a liberal at heart, so maybe you can't help it, but could you stop moving the target?

Here's what Wikipedia has to say about West...

Cornell West isn't a legitimate authority on anything. If Eric Holder, Obama, etc were to say something despicable about Cain, that would be news since they are in positions of power. Cornell West saying someting, and what he said was Cain should get off the symbolic crack-pipe, he didn't say Cain smoked crack, isn't particularly surprising or important.

Also, I have actually met Mr. West at Princeton. Not exactly a powerful person.

I am not cocky, I am confident, and when you tell me I am the best it is a compliment.
-Styles P

Oct 13, 2011

i would love the 9-9-9 plan, however.. i would be scared to death to give the government the power of national sales tax.
Besides, it's all highly theoretic, tax breaks is the biggest tool that the government has to bride the special interest groups. You take it away, what all those assholes are going to do?

Oct 15, 2011

he is a long-time member of the Democratic Socialists of America

yep.. that says it all.

Oct 15, 2011
moshennik:

he is a long-time member of the Democratic Socialists of America

yep.. that says it all.

I'm sure not many of you caught The O'Reilly Factor the other day but Bill interviewed Dr. West and Tavis Smiley. Bill ran a segment which showed one of his reporters chasing Stanley O'Neal, whom Bill considers the poster child for the WS fat cat turmoil, down the street asking him how he felt about walking away with $160mm as the company shit the bed, etc. O'Neal never said a word.

A minute later, Dr. West and Mr. Smiley accused Bill of shielding these WS fat cats and not holding them accountable. Bill responded with, "Did you just see that video? I've got a guy chasing Stanley O'Neal down the street trying to get answers!"

The response of the two interviewers were something along the lines of "I noticed you picked a black CEO and not a white one."

I agree that these guys are loony, but that doesn't mean they aren't respected by large swaths of people. Some people want to function in a world based on race because it provides them the only excuse they need to justify bad behavior and lack of success. In my mind there are too many minorities that have made it in society to lay a false claim of outright racism. Does racism still exist? Yeah, sure it does, but not on a large scale like Dr. West and Mr. Smiley would have you believe.

Eric Hoffer:

"There are many who find a good alibi far more attractive than an achievement. For an achievement does not settle anything permanently. We still have to prove our worth anew each day: we have to prove that we are as good today as we were yesterday. But when we have a valid alibi for not achieving anything we are fixed, so to speak, for life."

Regards

Oct 15, 2011

I would be more in favor of a 15-15 code. Do not add a sales tax on the national level, it will only go up over time. The US income tax started out at 7% for the highest earners and look where it is now.

15% corporate and 15% income, period. The tax burden would be evenly shared amongst corporations and individuals. An even split of the tax burden is as fair as you can get in my opinion.

I think the overall support to this plan is based on the fact that 9-9-9 is a simplified tax code to what we have now. Decades of new tax laws piled onto old tax laws has made our tax code one of the most complicated in the world. I agree, it needs to start over.

Oct 15, 2011

Didn't someone in the presidential debate say that the 999 plan sounded more like the price of a pizza than a actual plan for the country?

Oct 15, 2011
FutureTrader21:

Didn't someone in the presidential debate say that the 999 plan sounded more like the price of a pizza than a actual plan for the country?

Huntsman said that. Bachmann said "flip it upside down" and EA Games noted that 9-9-9 is the tax plan in SimCity 3. lol

Reality hits you hard, bro...

Oct 15, 2011

Cain really needs more info on this program. I went to his site hoping to find a white paper or something with the details, but nothing.

Oct 15, 2011

As compared to Bush, Obama has been rather unfriendly to Israel. Also, look at what happened with that Democratic seat open in NY. Dems controlled it forever and just lost it, in part because of growing disillusion from the Jewish community.

Why should Obama do something to help the blacks? I don't know, maybe because he campaigned on it and received near 100% voter support from blacks (and still maintains an abnormally high approval rating).

Oct 16, 2011
ANT:

...Why should Obama do something to help the blacks? I don't know, maybe because he campaigned on it and received near 100% voter support from blacks (and still maintains an abnormally high approval rating).

Isn't that ironic. He is being flamed for not doing enough but his support among potential black voters is still incredibly high. Crazy.

Regards

Oct 16, 2011

If I remember correctly Turkey wouldn't allow us a northern invasion front during the Iraq war.

Oct 16, 2011

Ant, I would suggest using google. Turkey leased the US land on which the US built bases integral for our stupid war. Where do you think our bases were? Israel?

Its funny how if I were to say we should redistribute wealth in America so poorer people could pay for a year of junior college, I would be called a socialist, but if I say we should redistribute our wealth to give to a developed country 6000 miles away I am considered a patriot.

I am not cocky, I am confident, and when you tell me I am the best it is a compliment.
-Styles P

Oct 17, 2011
Comment
Oct 16, 2011
Comment

I am not cocky, I am confident, and when you tell me I am the best it is a compliment.
-Styles P