Q&A: Former ER Associate now FAANG Engineer

Hey all, this community has given back to me tremendously in the early days of my career. I thought it would be helpful if I started a Q&A for those in ER looking for alternative exit opps, and I give some insights/experiences in both careers. More info on myself: Worked in 2 well-known banks for 3 years as an ER associate covering financial stocks -> quit and learned to code for 18 months -> worked as SWE in well-known IB and HFT firm for 2+ years and now chilling in garden leave -> incoming SWE in FAANG. I Will answer anything to the extent I won't give away my anonymity.

 
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I learned and refined my networking strategy through WallStreetOasis believe it or not.

I broke into ER by attending the WSO-sponsored NYC happy hours back in 2012-13. I befriended someone there who was interviewing for the bank that I eventually worked in. He told me in a drunken stupor that he fucked up and had to withdraw all his job applications because he realized he was 1 credit short from graduating. I asked if he can give me the email addresses of everyone he spoke to at the bank. That timed well with me passing CFA Level 1, so my technicals were really polished and I got some newfound confidence. I cold emailed every single person in that list on a Sunday afternoon, and 2 weeks later I received my offer.

That networking strategy hasn't really changed even after I left ER. All I do is just cold message folks through LinkedIn. The goal is to bypass the inhouse recruiters and go straight to the hiring managers. From there I can handle myself well.

 

I would start off at the very beginning and read Security Analysis and understand the concepts of margin of safety and intrinsic value. I would follow it up with "The Intelligent Investor", "A Random Walk Down Wall Street", "Fooling Some of the People All of the Time", and "The Little Book that Beats the Market".

After the GME fiasco last month, I have lost faith in the credibility of business news and I find them to be overly editorialized and make clear attempts to tell a story that benefits the "establishment". That said, in my free time I still read earnings transcripts of comapnies that I invest in my PA and ones that I am interesting in investing in. I also highly recommend at the very least to read the MD&A section of company's 10-k. Once you formed your own personal opinion, and depending on your conviction, compare it to what you believe the market is pricing in, and form a position based on your confidence.

Investing is a combination of diligence and instinct. It is hard to make money, but I believe it is possible to refine your investing acumen over time and make it easier for you.

 

There were 2 themes related to why I decided to quit: regulation and automation.

With respect to regulation, MIFID 2 regulation has made it difficult for ER to make money. Specifically in MIFID 2, asset managers (aka our clients) have to disclose explicitly how much they are paying for investment research. Because of that, the conversations typically go like this.

Asset Manager: "Hey investment bank, how much is equity research part of the trading & execution services that we are paying for?"

Investment Bank: "X%"

Asset Manager: "Cool, can we get that to $0? I'll just only pay for corporate access from hereon because I only really read the titles of your research reports anyways."

With respect to automation, Black Monday in 2015 revealed to me how little equity research mattered. For some reason, high-cap stocks sank much more that day on market open compared to riskier, low-cap stocks. It made no sense to me. I had a hunch that the markets were proliferated by algo trading much more than I had originally thought, and it further explains why the wallet share of equity research is shrinking. I remember vaguely in the back of my head that in 2000, 50% of all US daily trading volume is automated through computers, and as of 2015 it was almost 85% of US daily trading volume. I didn't want to wait when it becomes 99%.

Eventually, I realized that even IF I wanted to continue my career in finance, I had to learn how to code.

 

What are your tips for getting an interview at FAANG? And how did you prepare to do well in the interview?

 

FAANG companies are pretty clockwork in their recruiting. I have an impression that they scrape LinkedIn and saw that I was hitting my 1/2/3 year mark in my SWE career. I had already expected the email from the recruiter before they even spoke to me.

To prepare, I did 75 problems on AlgoExpert, and 176 Easy/Medium problems on leetcode over the course of 8 months on and off. I learned all my Data Structures and Algorithms through youtube videos.

 

Do you think you spending 18 months to learn coding (via other methods I presume) vs spending 3 months at a coding bootcamp put you at an advantage when you were looking for a programming job? What was your pay for the very first SWE job you got? How was the interviewing process? Thanks.

 

I did go to a bootcamp. Bootcamp curates important concepts and gives you an immersive environment so students can be ready for junior developer jobs after the program. I personally did not have the willpower to do it alone.

I spent 4 of those 18 months traveling, 1 month of self studying, 3 months in bootcamp, 8 months teaching part time at said bootcamp while doing job search, and last 2 months chilling until my start date.

The pay was a TC of $140k. Interview process was a couple of coderpad interviews, followed by an onsite of 5 rounds of 1-hr interviews on DS&A. Tech interviews are much more structured and it should be obvious even for you whether or not you've done well that day.

 

I'm considering doing the same thing as you (albeit from S&T and a couple more years of finance under my belt), and this is immensely helpful, thanks. So you were able to go from 140k to 250k in about 2 years after starting off in the new industry? Nice.

 

Thanks for doing this!

  1. How did you get into coding? What are some traits you usually find in people who don’t know yet to code, but may have a great passion for it (I assume it’s your case)?

  2. What resources would you recommend to someone who would be interested in learning to code from zero? What approach would you suggest to someone who is planning to learn this while working a full time job?

  3. What are the main differences between your ER and SWE jobs? Main things you like / dislike about both?

 

1. I hate repetition. I do whatever it takes to maximize reward/effort ratio across my entire life. When I was in ER, I inherited some spreadsheets from a rock star that left the firm. He had macros that literally did things that would take a good 1 hour to do in 30 seconds: on startup, if the spreadsheet is opened in a bloomberg terminal, columns will populate until it reaches the most recent qtr, the new columns will then update some quarterly data, then updates the charts, and finally saves the file. I was so sick and tired of the day-to-day monkey work that I used that spreadsheet as a reference to do even more automations. I eventually got to a point for the first looks of the earnings releases, I made automations that wrote 80% of the words for me, and all I needed to think about was the catchy title and scan for actual incremental material information that could move the stock.

%Full name of company% (%Symbol%) reported an %Q%Q%YY% EPS of $X.XX, $X.XX %below/above/in-line% with our estimates and $X.XX %below/above/in-line% with Street estimates.

I have gone to bootcamp with theater majors and people who drove trucks for 10+ years, and they've all been successful as engineers. The most common traits are perseverance, attention to detail, and independence.

2. I would start learning JavaScript. You can teach yourself 3 hours a day after work and there are plenty of 3-8 hour youtube tutorials on that. Bootcamps also provide a prep program (oftentimes for free) to prepare you for the bootcamps, that is a good first step as well.

3. ER and SWE is totally different.

In ER, the day-to-day changes all the time. I can be working diligently on a research report on CCAR and its potential impact on my coverage universe, and then Brexit happens and then no one gives a shit about my work. Russia invaded Crimea? Fuck me, my research on mortgage rates has gone to shit. Who really gives a fuck on how oil prices affect the manufacturing cost of Lululemon leggings? The deadlines in ER are measured by minutes, hours, and days. I disliked how useless my research was.

In SWE, the main job is to build/maintain/design an application that is expected to last for several years. The deadlines are measured typically in 1-2 weeks, and the overal project deadline, depending on the size of the company, can be 1 month to 2 years. I enjoy coding and being a SWE, but I do dislike being a SWE in finance, as there is still a seniority social hierarchy in place. Because of that, boomer managers are much more of an obstructionist as they politically try to keep ownership of their legacy technologies in order to keep their seats.

Ultimately, the output I produced in ER was an ephemeral product. But the programs that I wrote in my last 2 roles are still being used daily, and that feels good.

 

In your opinion, what's the most efficient way to automate some of these mindless repetitive tasks? I can think of a few ways to "automate" data entry into word documents from excel workbooks (writing formulas/ sentences that I copy/ paste into Word); aggregating necessary data into an excel template, and then mail merging into a word doc; learning my own macros; or finding pre-built macros online (ideally for free).  I'm assuming you'd recommend learning Macros, but any pointers on how/where to start are helpful.  

You said you inherited some advanced macros, and then built more automations; I have no experience using macros (other than watching a few youtube videos), but I would gladly spend nights and weekends learning new tools that could improve my workflow (especially on earnings nights, also for building models into a template so I don't have to spend as much time data wrangling/ formatting).  I'm 8 months in as a a first yr associate in ER, and I'm already tired of the monkey work. 

Also, in the example you gave, are the % signs (%Full name of company%) a syntax for some program/ language? 

 

I majored in maths but decided to ty and break into ER because I suck at problem solving. I do however, possess perseverance in abundance, and it is the main reason I got a good GPA. You seem to suggest in your post that if someone is hard working enough they can break into tech, even if like me they feel problem solving is not their biggest strength. 

Is this your take on it, or am I misreading? Thanks

 

I'm a bit confused on your self evaluation? There are plently of problems to solve in ER even though the solutions are not always black and white. I always found financial modeling to be very analogous to coding and the traits to be good at the day-to-day in ER is translatable to SWE. Yes, I do believe anyone hard working enough can break into tech. Frankly, its easier to break into tech than it is into finance.

 

Great job OP, and thanks for starting this thread. Just a few questions from reading your post:

1. Coding languages: I know you mentioned JavaScript as a starting point. How do you feel about Python? Just thinking that learning coding with a full-time job is challenging enough, and perhaps starting with a syntax-friendly language might be a better option? Also, a number of the finance-related job ads I've looked at in my country (Singapore) seem to want Python or SQL proficiency. 

2. 18-months off: Were you worried that you might not land a job after the hiatus/recruiters might question the gap? Or did you feel like the first few years of ER + the part-time work at the bootcamp gave you a decent enough safety net employment-wise?

3. Job satisfaction: Do you enjoy your role in tech? What're the biggest upsides v finance in your opinion?

 

1. Python is definitely fine as well as a starting point. Very friendly for beginners and even valuable for many fintech roles with its data science and ML libraries. Frankly, it is a matter of opinion that Python is more syntax-friendly than JS, but I do understand where you're coming from. SQL is a query language, and I don't advise learning that to start out.

2. Yes. I was worried. But I had no other direction to go so I had to make it work. That said, having job gaps in tech is much less frowned upon compared to finance. I was concerned more about my pedigree and how my job search experience would be different; on paper it looks as if I came from a very pedigreed background, and I was frequently rejected because startups would be skeptical I would even accept their job offer even if they would hand me one. I was fortunate enough to live rent-free in my parent's basement, and I barely had the time to spend my salary during my ER days. I took all my savings and invested intelligently, only withdrawing from my brokerage to keep my checking account balance at $1000. The part-time job paid for my daily meals + commuter pass. I budgeted for 3 years of unemployment.

3. I really enjoy being in tech. The biggest upsides is probably the reward/effort ratio compared to finance. In tech, your first job could be at a startup like Affirm or Asana with a $160k TC, do 2-3 years and get RSUs from that. On your 4th year, you work at a FAANG company pulling in $220-270k TC, a substantial amount of that is also in RSUs; or you can decide to jump into HFT, which they are willing to pay $350-500k TC if you are a C++ engineer. The startup that you worked for early on in your career actually went through an IPO, and overnight your equity options become liquid, and you can sell it off for $500k. In ER, depending on the shop, your salary could be as low as $80k TC to as high as $200k TC in your first year, and you might make $300k once you make VP. A part of your TC is always a cash bonus. While you have more of a certainty of that bonus, you have no upside if your organization does well. Furthermore, depending on your bank, you could be restricted in purchasing individual stocks due to compliance, and that could also hamper your wealth generation.

Keep in mind that hours in tech is 40-60hrs a week compared to 60-80hrs a week in ER. In ER, you HAVE to show up 2 hours before market open, and you stay until at least 2 hours after market close. In tech, people can show up to work at 11am for meetings and leave at 3pm and finish up work in the evening at home.

I have much more control over my career and destiny in tech. There is a big lack of engineers here in the United States, and that power dynamic is better than being 1 out of the 200+ applications for every ER seat out there.

 

Got it, a few quick follow-ups.

1. Do you think it's too late for working professionals to take up coding? Just that it feels like it'd take a good year or two to get up to speed on Python/JavaScript, etc. By which time, the jobs in the industry could've been taken up (at least in my country, small market and all) and new skill sets could be in demand.

2. Why not move out to an asset management firm e.g. Fidelity, Wellington, etc. Wouldn't your experience have been transferable?

3. Is it safe to assume that you started the transition to tech in your mid-20s (I know you don't wanna compromise your anonymity)? 

4. Do you feel like your work is interesting? I've come across/heard of software engineers who are bored with what they do. 

 

Thanks for doing this! My short background story is I started off as a CPA in audit, transitioned to  transactions/M&A and hated the culture/lifestyle. I'm in a more "operational" finance role, but am finding this not quite be my speed either because of the politics. On a related note, I've worked in quite a few different areas within finance and have the potentially controversial opinion that it's not that meritocratic of an industry, at least on the corp fin side. I can see how investments is because people can tie back directly to who pitched what, but I've seen so many mediocre people move up ahead of people who either work harder than I am/are more intelligent just because they have the right "perception" in the office. As such, my questions are the following:

1. My sense is that tech is slightly more meritocratic in the same way the investment side of finance is. You can't get by purely by "managing" people, etc. in tech because the product/solution you're offering either works or it doesn't. Additionally, the work is more complex/technical, compared to corp fin, so it's not something that most people can theoretically do like it is in finance. Is that correct or am I fooling myself by thinking that?

2. Are there areas in software that can still leverage my background as a CPA? For example, I've done some work in Python writing scripts automating year-end processes or generating reports for clients. I still love business and finance, so I'd ideally like to be in a role that combines my business knowledge with a technical skillset. 

3. Is the fastest way, if I ever wanted to full on transition, to going from finance --> software to do a coding bootcamp or a masters? Like I said, I have some tangible work experience writing code and know the basics of Python at least. I just need to convince reputable companies the same and to give me a chance. 

Thanks again!

 

1. Yes, tech is much more meritocratic akin to buy-side finance. I would say that there is some unmeritocratic behavior at times at my first job where the company was aggressively promoting females/POC, but it's not one that I would completely disagree with and it doesn't step on my toes when it comes to promotion. I find the work in tech challenging enough to get me uncomfortable, but comfortable enough that continuous iterations on the problem will get me to a solution, if that makes sense.

I can't comment much on corp fin vs. engineering, but I can say that there are engineers out there that are worth 10 engineers (we call them 10X'ers). That skill difference is irrespective of YOE. My managers told me in my first SWE job that I did more work in my year at the bank more than some did their 10 year careers there. These characteristics in engineering makes it easy for the high-performers to stand out naturally. However, if your engineering manager has no idea of the technology that you work on, or if the culture is not set in place like what I experienced in HFT, there are times where your office "perception" matters.

2. Yes. I am sure you can identify a ton of repetition in the day-to-day tasks that you do, and that is where accounting software comes in. A simple CS grad would have a hard time coding up the logic without understanding the domain knowledge, so having the requisite background does help. I know a handful of big 4 accountants who went through bootcamp with me.

3. I would do a coding bootcamp. The time commitment is 3 months and the price tag is ~$25k compared to a 1-2 year commitment dishing out ~$60k/yr learning from a syllabus that has little to do with real world applications. I frequently encounter CS students who have no idea how to code.

 

Perfect! Thanks a lot for the response. It seems like tech could be a decent pivot for me. I'm holding on for now while I'm still employed to see how things shake out, but unless I find my dream industry gig soon, I'm seriously thinking about making the change at this point. Corp fin's progression is just too slow for me and the choices at the mid-levels seem to either be to continue grinding out long hours + travel in consulting to get above market pay but have minimal work-life balance, or be underpaid with slow progression and politicking at the top end to make it in corp fin. Neither option seems desirable, quite frankly. If I stay on the finance track, the other option is IB, which has even worse work-life balance, so I feel like I'm pretty SOL & the sooner I make a decision either way, the better. 

My question then is if I pursue the bootcamp, what does that process look like (i.e. when do they usually have "classes", how the application process works, etc.) and what are the ones that are worthwhile? Further, do you know what the approximate packages are for people who don't make it to FAANG from them? I'm not necessarily looking to get into FAANG, honestly. I think my ideal would moreso be something data-oriented that draws on my business knowledge and a remote job that lets me work internationally after a few years. I just want to make sure that I'm not chasing pipedreams since I am making a decent living right now and need to consider the downside of quitting and pursuing the bootcamp.

Thanks again!

 

How difficult was the job search process? I know you mentioned a big lack of engineers in the US so I assume it would be easy to find a mediocre, not as well paying job, but for those jobs that are above average in terms of brand, pay, quality of projects, etc., how easy/difficult was the process especially as a person who career-changed and was fresh out of a bootcamp without any prior SWE experience?

 

I tracked my job search process. I applied to ~1020 jobs during the 8 months. I had about ~20 phone screens and 4 onsite interviews. I would say that I was a hard case and was a bit unlucky during my job search. Statistically, ~50% of my cohort were employed within 3 months after bootcamp and they averaged around ~300 job applications. From my personal sources, during the pandemic about ~25% of a cohort received jobs after 8 months out of bootcamp. I expect the statistic should return to pre-pandemic levels by end of this year. The interview process is not hard in the sense that there are no surprises, and each tech interview is more or less the same regardless of industry.

 

How in-demand was your skillset on the buyside? I'm hearing anecdotally that hedge funds are hiring sell side people and teaching them how to code from scratch because they can't find quality people with both skillsets. Does this comport with your experience? If you wanted to, could you have landed a good hedge fund job

I ask because I'm incoming equity research associate who majored in computer science. Interested to hear how much this combo increases my value...

 

Very high in demand. The younger cohort of traders there that I've met know Python and know their way around a linux operating system.

From my anecdotal experience, there are some pods in Millenium/Balyasny/etc. that run quant strategies and its mandatory to know how to code in order to execute their strategy. It is also based on the hiring manager's philosophy whether or not someone from the sell-side can be trainable, but I never heard of anyone giving someone a shot in the dark without any coding predisposition. I do know of a friend who graduated from a target, worked at a FoF and passed all 3 levels of CFA there, quit to do a bootcamp, became a data analyst at a startup, recruited to work in a pod at a megafund, and is now a quant PM.

I have connections that I made back in my ER days to leverage if I do want to work in a team utilizing quant strategies. I do think I could have, and I do know of FAANG engineers with no background in trading/investing to have done that. I just personally think the buyside is too nasty of an environment to justify the compensation. That said, my career options are still open to go that buyside route if I choose to do so.

 

Very interesting, thank you. What are your thoughts on doing an MBA in business and also doing a coding boot camp to get a career in buyside? I currently live outside the US and majored in mathematics, so MBA would be a good transition to get finance exposure while bootcamp would be a good complementary skill set. I see there is a trend towards "quantamentals" and spending 4-6 months in a bootcamp along with MBA might not be a bad idea. If I want to stay in finance longer term, would you recommende this from a financial point of view? 

 

Thank you for sharing your experience. 
With this transition, do you see SWE as a long term career path or do you have something different that you would like to pursue down the road? 
From some of the posts in this forum, my understanding is that the learning curve in SWE can get fairly flat after a few years with a ceiling on comp.

Is that your expectation as well? 

 

For now, I am keeping it as a long term career path all the way to CTO. I realized my communication and management skills is relatively better compared to other engineers just because I had exposure in ER to clients and had to pitch ideas/theses with conviction. Eventually, I see myself pivoting out of being an individual contributor to eventually management. A pivot into becoming a product manager is also possible. Running a small startup business is also part of my consideration as its much more tangible now that I can rely on myself to get a domain + website running in a matter of weeks.

The learning curve I can guarantee is not flat. But there are career SWEs that are okay with staying as an individual contributor and the ceiling on comp is frequently a lifestyle decision.

 

Thanks for doing this OP, your answers have been super helpful. I didn't study CS but currently work in prod support (e.g. sql, linux and other sysadmin stuff) and want to transition into SWE sometime next year. basically teaching myself web dev stuff on FreeCodeCamp currently

so I've done a couple react/node toy projects and will have like 10 when I'm done with FCC. edit: They are simple things functionality wise like a calculator, API fetcher for quotes, URL shortener, etc. Thinking of then building a full stack web app as my "main" project for the resume, even with user auth, Stripe integration, deployed on Firebase etc.. that should take a couple months. Problem is I have not started leetcode at all.

A couple questions:

  • 1. how many // what kind of projects did you have on your resume when you applied?
  • 2. do you think the projects I mentioned would be enough to get interviews at FAANG? 
  • 3. How much time do you think I should spend doing lc/ds&a before starting to apply for jobs?
  • 4. Is it realistic to shoot for a job in Spring/Summer 2022?
  • 5. any other learning areas/projects that you would recommend? system design?

thanks in advance!!

 

1. I have 3 projects, they have been stale for 3 years now but they're still up and running. I have a fullstack app that is a mvp clone of AirBnb, a data viz using google maps on real estate prices in NYC, and a python webscraper that scrapes bestbuy.com for product rankings. Your "main" project sounds good, but I would reduce the scope of it a bit. Do user auth, deploy it somehow, but dont worry about Stripe integration. Reduce the scope to less than 1 month if possible. Leetcode for FAANG is more important

2. You just need at least 1 project imo as interviewers may ask you what cool thing have you made personally. At your stage, you have to network your way into an interview best through an employee referral.

3. Do LC until you feel comfortable with all common data structures + algos. The majority SWE jobs will only quiz you on string/object/array manipulation. Only the competitive places quiz you on ADTs.

4. Very realistic.

5. System Design is only necessary for FB. Amazon + Google will not ask you that at the junior level. Most places will also not ask. But it doesn't hurt to spend a week reading/drilling through some as it is helpful for the job + make you sound more knowledgable during the informal/behavioral parts of the interview.

 

Would you say there are any transferable (hard or soft) skills when transitioning from ER to SWE? 

How's the culture different from finance to tech? I imagine you work harder but for lesser hours?

Any difference in pay-scale?

Im in ER, looking to make a similar jump, but only 8 months in. (Kind of bored already)

 

You are paid to be knowledgable in a particular industry in ER. That soft skill of coming across as a knowledgable person carried me well in SWE. For hard skills, I would simply say spreadsheet modeling (IF statements, etc.) in Excel gave me a transferable skill base when I started to learn code.

I can't say I've worked harder in tech. I can't say I've worked more hours in tech. Simply put, I get paid more to do less in SWE, but I work much smarter compared to when I was in finance. Less in SWE is still an order of magnitude more than in finance if measured by the number of end-users that are touched by my work.

You can read my previous comments with respect to pay. But it pays more than ER at all levels unless you are an II ranked analyst.

 

I'm a fresh graduate who majored in Finance with the goal of doing IB but wasn't able to land a Summer Analyst role. In my last semester, I took an introductory web development course and really enjoyed it. I built a website for my final project (no major functionalities but friends who did CS in college or currently in the industry were really impressed, mainly by the design aspects) Faced with the reality that I have very slim to no chance of landing an FT role now, I'm considering doing a boot camp and switching to SWE. What advice do you have for me? Thanks! 

 

Thanks for the Q&A. I have some questions.

  1. At the beginning I was thinking to do the same move and transition from finance to DS but after a brief experience in tech I am worried about career progression. I think it is ok to reach a technical level to land entry / mid levels roles but after that you have to compete with very smart guys with quantitative bachelors and masters, this is what stop me to go more into data science / swe.
  1. I was thinking about the opposite move. I have a bachelor in finance and I am finishing my masters in statistics, working as a FT BA at Amazon in London. Do you think I have a shot to land an internship / graduate role in ER ?
 

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  • Associates (86) $261
  • 3rd+ Year Analyst (13) $181
  • Intern/Summer Associate (33) $170
  • 2nd Year Analyst (66) $168
  • 1st Year Analyst (202) $159
  • Intern/Summer Analyst (144) $101
notes
16 IB Interviews Notes

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