Does anyone have insight into the tiering of multi-manager hedge fund (MMHF) long/short platforms?
I’m assuming Citadel, Point72, Balyasny, and Millennium are generally considered Tier 1—but how are other L/S platforms typically viewed?
| +38 | How much modeling do experienced HF analysts/PMs actually do? | 15 | 2h |
| +22 | Buy Side Credit - Seats / Guide | 8 | 21h |
| +18 | London buy side | 3 | 7h |
| +18 | Hedge Fund Pivot | 6 | 4h |
| +11 | Mid-career shift to buy side with niche background | 3 | 4d |
| +9 | Wfh / work remotely at MMs or SMs? | 5 | 3d |
| +3 | Atlantic Wolf Capital Closing? | 5 | 13h |
| +3 | How old is too old? | 3 | 1d |
| 0 | Walleye Capital | 1 | 2d |
| 0 | Hedge funds | 1 | 4d |
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lol, I’m sure this will go well
Point72 Academ
This guy finds every opportunity to comment about point 🤣🤣
Point72 Academ
Guys, I have an existential question
Is it completely dumb to leave a T1 LO junior role to go to a T2 pod?
This would effectively double my total comp year 1
Are you okay with potentially having a close to $0 comp in year 2?
Yes, with 0 bonus I would still earn multiple of what my parents currently make
But when speaking with people of the industry, they imply it’s very stupid to leave a large LO if it’s not a big pod at C/MLP.
I’m pretty unhappy in my role but the common sense is that those seats are valuable
LO and Tier 1 cannotbein the same sentence. you can ignore my title. i left finance as a whole but LO is so fking regarded
Why do you say that?
where do i start? its basically beta hugging strategy and is purely stupid. Think about it: anyone can do unit economics math, think about what a good business model is, strategy ideas, and why the business will outperform, etc.... None of the top LOs can outperform but tbf, their AUM sizes have bcecome too big to even be efficient enough nor provide real value proposition vs. putting money in QQQ. At least in MM LS world, your value proposition is beta neutral "alpha scraping" product but LO is literally just less diversification with lower returns than the market LOL. how stupid is this? They love compounders but any nitwit with a half brain cell can see what good compounders look like and it doesnt take a special skillset to identify one.
I interviewed with a few "tier 1" LOs in the past and the PMs there were absolute idiots. They just dont know what the drivers of the stocks are and are talking about something that doesnt even matter. Nonetheless, all the stocks I pitched ripped when they were trying to point out irrelevant matters. And these stocks were all 80bn market cap+ so they werent even some SMIDs that were volatile.
In short, LO is scam strategy and no wonder why you see traditional LO managers also venturing into other asset classes like venture, credit, even LS (LOL look at wellington trying to build this out) since the inflow into LO is basically dead. Lastly, the LO analysts are very subpar quality typically coming from smooth brain PE people who try to take "PE approach" to public markets investing mindset which is the dumbest shit ive seen. happy to talk more but hope this helps.
i think you're right to an extent that the $1tn+ AUM funds cant possibly beat the market by preferring one mega cap narrative over another but you're wrong to think that there is no potential alpha / differentiation to discerning good business models / strategy. It's about a) knowing the difference between great and good, b) being super meticulous about handicapping market expectations on wedge issues and doing a shit ton of primary research to be the smartest person in the world on that issue, (not just buying "good businesses at a reasonable prices) and c) looking where others aint (i.e. SMIDs and internationals). Supermarket mutual fund companies can't do that because they're marketing businesses focused on accumulating assets whereas $1-5bn concentrated long onlys can make money that way.
You get paid by LPs because no one is getting fired if CAP/wel/d&c loses money in publics. Just like how you probably won’t be fired allocating to TB with how amazing their fundraising is given their lack lustre record. I think it’s worth a minute to think about incentives and how these partners which r absolutely dumb” have somehow crafted/played into an ecosystem with insanely favourable econs and setup
You should be grateful that firms like this exist to extract alpha from
agree
Del
I think that's the outside in view. The inside view is more pm/team dependent as opposed to firm. But yeah no beating around the bush that C is considered the best. My interaction with them from a sellside perspective is varied. Some are burned out and just want to know where buyside sits. Others are elite EPS modellers.
Any colour on how to break into C as an international, post MBA (H/W/C), with BB IB and M&A buyside (non-PE) background? (I’m just starting the mba)
Thanks!!
lmao at H/W/C. Congrats on Columbia! I'm not making fun of you, I went there. Do the VI program, do a good internship ($1bn+ long short, they're not hard to come by), and put your resume in front of the bus dev people at Citadel / Millenium / P72 towards the end of your second year and you'll at least get interviews.
fully based on your PM. dont just chase the company name (although important yes)
Setting the tiers aside, does anyone have any insights on how it is working at the other MMs? I know its very PM dependent but would be helpful
Just started at one of the big shops so not first hand data, but someone that used to be at EP mentioned the positioning data what p shitty vs what we have here
How do people view Walleye these days?
Pro: AUM growth from $4-5B to $10-12B (depending on the source) in 3-4 years. Performance similar to Citadel last year (as per BBG).
Con: Sudden strategy shifts (massive macro hiring in 2023-24, then fired everyone again less than a year later). Also quite some churn on the L/S side it seems. Makes me wonder to what extent the performance might be due to lower diversification?
Walleye has shut the London LS equity strategy completely
When?
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