Striking out on recruiting, feeling hopeless
I have been recruiting for a new job for about a year now. The main reason is because I want to leave the absolute shithole, toxic workplace I deal with everyday - my PM berates everyone almost everyday and working with him is like walking on egg shells. I have had 6 final rounds in the past few months but have struck out on all of them, and now I’m feeling pretty hopeless and dread going into work every single day because I haven’t also gotten a decent bonus 2 years in a row and get treated like shit
final round 1 at a large multi strat fund - was passed over and feedback was they picked the other candidate for a better prez despite my case being better.. that candidate got fired a few months later
final round 2 at a family office - was told I would get the offer and asked pay etc, only to be ghosted for a month and then being told it went to an internal candidate
final round 3 at a well known SM credit fund - my fault, social faux pas despite good case cost me an offer
final round 4 at a well known event driven fund - was told formatting on model could be better
final round 5 at a multi strat - went to someone with more exp
final round 6 at well regarded SM - told it was super close and honestly a coin toss between who would be a better fit
My background isn’t the best because I didn’t do banking and went straight to the buyside with a non finance (but stem) degree although from a good school so I don’t get too many bites on HH outbounds to begin with. Now I’m scratching my head and wondering what can be done to just get a new role. I’m struggling balancing striking out, some personal issues and dealing with a toxic PM
Based on the most helpful WSO content, here’s a structured approach to help you navigate this tough situation and improve your chances:
Analyze Feedback and Patterns:
Leverage Networking:
Refine Your Story:
Expand Your Search:
Mental Resilience:
Mock Interviews and Coaching:
Stay Strategic:
Remember, persistence and adaptability are key. Many professionals have faced similar struggles and eventually found success by staying focused and continuously improving. Keep pushing forward!
Sources: A non-target's failure, Resilience in the face of rejection, Navigating the Unemployment Terrain, Finding New Jobs, Navigating the Unemployment Terrain
For reference, how old are you?
Mid 20s
at least there's that! still plenty of time.
Seems like you're getting far, just a shots-on-goal / odds game
Sometimes that’s just how it goes man. There’s so much chance involved in every aspect of life. You can and will flip tails 6x in a row. Keep chugging
>social faux pas
Come on you gotta elaborate
interviews I did prior to that one were very small teams ~2-3 person teams.. so I didn't know the expectation was to stay behind and meet everyone at the firm, including for dinner, if the case went well.. not elaborating more at the risk of being doxxed if someone on that team sees this. Stupid, I know.. but I genuinely didn't know this and for whatever reason didn't think to ask anybody about it too..
if that was planned it is a bit weird they didn't give you a heads up ahead of time
Seems unlikely this was the reason you did not get the offer. If it was, you likely dodged a bullet anyway since this is 100% a disorganized workplace. It’s more likely you just struck out for random reasons and you’re just trying to make sense of it all
Finance recruiting is a pure numbers game. Getting to 6 finals means your background is good enough. Unfortunately, many firms interview people just to "see what's out there" rather than having real intent to hire. It's incredibly hard to gauge beforehand if you're walking into a real process or just a market check. Always worth asking directly about the seat (replacement hire? expanded coverage?) before investing time in deep prep.
Nothing here suggests a fundamental problem with your candidacy. That said, might be worth considering whether you need to make a faster move to a "good enough" next step just to get out of the toxic environment. Sometimes perfect is the enemy of good.
Fwiw, I've worked at places where I was really hyped up about the brand/prestige & really clicked with the seniors, and it ended up being a mediocre experience. Also joined a place I thought was "meh" on surface but it catapulted me in to the next level.
Thanks, this is a helpful tip. I think one of the final rounds I did this year was just a feeler for what's out there given the number of times they've reposted the job on bloomberg.
I agree, and I have been open to these types of roles, too - a couple of the final rounds included roles that weren't the best fit for me but good enough for the next step. Unfortunately, I did strike out on those too (final round #2 and #4).
Given your title, I assume you've done a fair share of hiring, so do you have any tips to stand out in the final rounds? Especially when it's a close decision between 2 candidates. What tips the scale in favor of the other?
Fundamentally, I screen for three things:
Don't try to be who you think they want to tip the scales - it really shows. The best candidates are authentic and self-aware. Skillset mean nothing if you can't mesh with the team. Also worth noting - great interviewers don't always make great analysts on the job, and vice versa. I try to look past the occasional interview anxiety if I sense real potential underneath.
Bottom line: It's mutual fit assessment. You should be evaluating them just as much as they're evaluating you. When it's right, both sides usually know.
Would you mind elaborating on what looked like”meh” from the outside but ended up being great ? You don’t have to name specific firms, more so the characteristics of what that looked like
I had an experience where I joined what people on here seem to define as a prestigious shop with pedigreed investors who on paper had the track record of developing talent. Didn't learn as much nor enjoy it day-to-day. Switched to working for a first-time PM at a less prestigious fund who became a star MM PM.
The "prestigious" seat had all the boxes checked from the outside. The "riskier" move with the up-and-coming PM taught me proper risk management & process, and his multi-year success and rep created massive opportunities through association.
Hence why I feel like a lot of the conversations on here around "top SMs" / "Pods" and listing them are a bit of a useless exercise, as it has, in my own experience, limited correlation to your own success factors.
Sorry to hear that man. I've done 3 final rounds in the past year, I have let's say somewhere betw 5-7yrs of experience.
1st final round: Went to a candidate with 15+yrs experience. Was told I did a good job in the final round
2nd final round: Went to a candidate with 25+yrs experience (this was just ridiculous). All of the team members liked me better but the CIO of the fund wanted the other candidate so end of story. Was told I did a great job in the final round and everyone was impressed with me
3rd final round: Not sure who this one went to yet, I'll see on the page soon enough. Was told all the feedback was positive
It just sucks given in a normal market I could've landed this. But there's so much senior talent recruiting for roles that it's brutal. You are in a better seat than me because I'm pretty sure I'm in an up-or-out scenario this year and up is not happening given my fund is sucking wind with a bloated cost structure right now. Hoping for the best man
25+ years of experience is wild for #2. What title was it?
Sr. analyst -- they were out of work for 1+yr and I guess was desperate enough to try for lower level positions which I understand but it completely screwed me
The #2 final round on the list was a similar experience to you... I was told they wanted junior talent (I have just about 5 years total exp), but it went to someone with 10+. I thought that was ridiculous although to be fair even the HH didn't know there was an internal candidate which I thought was crazy too
That's interesting man cus I have slightly over 10 years experience, but fund#1 I'm interested in want someone with up to 3 years exp, fund #2 want someone with 2 years exp...
Anyone can explain why they prefer junior analysts? cost concern? is there any point engaging in the future if there is a strong mismatch in terms of years of exp or from your interview experiences, what % of HF do you find openminded and flexible in terms of exp levels?
The threshold is somewhere around 5-8 years. Beyond that the HR/BD will usually filter you out if you did not run risk directly. The cost is not an issue, in quant they often pay juniors more than existing seniors, because there is much more demand for juniors and it's easier for them to get competing offers. Most PMs think younger people will work harder and are more moldable to their own process. Seniors will only be considered if they cannot get enough juniors relative to demand, like in 2021.
Hey man, sorry for your experience.
I'm not in the position to give advice, so sorry about that.
I wanted to just ask about your STEM background, since I plan to get a business or engineering degree. I personally really find engineering to be very intelligent profession, but was unsure about the buyside/sellside opportunities afterwards. What do you think about that?
Tbh nobody really questioned this for me during my internship search in school except maybe a couple people. I also did study a pure science subject vs engineering. I have come across some engineering grads at these funds I interviewed at though, so pursue what you will truly like to study but have a good reason as to why not finance/econ in case someone asks.
This too shall pass
Was in a similar boat, but on the PE side. Took me 13 processes over the better part of a year including one processes where I was the only candidate left and they decided to cancel the process altogether. Ended up securing a solid role after all that - these things take time.
Regarding this: Final round 1 at a large multi strat fund - was passed over and feedback was they picked the other candidate for a better prez despite my case being better.. that candidate got fired a few months later
Did you try reaching out to them again to see if there was any opportunity again? Although don't pitch it as saying that you know the other candidate left/got fired. Sometimes if they remember you enough, they might consider you rather than going through a whole new recruitment process again.
Yes, although I’m not 100% sure why that candidate isn’t at the fund anymore (fired it just my guess).. reached out and PM asked to get on a call later this week.
All the best for your upcoming chat!
I am absolutely feeling the same. It feels so hopeless. I've been recruiting for almost a year as well. My firm shut down 3Q of last year. I've gotten to a few very late stage rounds, and I got similar responses - the position went to someone with more experience. I am hoping things open up around bonus season with the normal churn. Fingers crossed for both of us.
Just know you're not alone. I've been recruiting for 6 months and have not even come close to getting a late round despite no negative feedback. It seems like HHs just spam resumes everywhere and there is a ton of talent looking. I'm hopeful we'll see some spots open up after bonuses hit, but the market seems tough.
How do you guys find so many opportunity to interview for? I have been trying to position myself as a sector specialist in L/S cross capital structure investing and I’m having a hard time finding the right opportunities.
Are you guys generalists or just interview for all the headhunters reach outs?
Of the final rounds I listed, 2 though job postings, others through HHs. I’ve done far more 1st/2nd rounds and most were through HHs. I’ve had more luck at SMs as a generalist, but it didn’t help with the pod shops.
Keep going bro, you will find something eventually. Just stay focused and take time / breaks to clear your mind.
What if it actually is hopeless though? How would you even decide whether this is true? Like in theory some industries do get smaller over time.
What's your hesitation on going into a corporate role perhaps? If corp dev isn't up your alley, IR is more markets-based and plenty of ex-ER/HF folks
I've applied to a bunch of corp dev roles but haven't gotten traction with them because of a lack of IB experience. I've even applied for IB roles but had no luck.
I've received 5 different interviews since this post, and all are at funds related to my current role, so I'm hoping one of them works out.
Gotcha, yeah Corp dev is typically more so for IB/PE backgrounds given the transaction-driven nature. That’s why I was suggesting perhaps looking into IR instead since lots of former HF folks take up roles in that. Best of luck!
#1- don’t get down on your luck, as others have said, it’s a numbers game and it takes time. Keep your chin up.
#2- make sure you’re refining / learning from every process. Sure it sounds like there’s an idiosyncratic issue at each process, but they also presumably hired somebody. Make sure you’re continuing to improve your candidacy. Aim to be the “must have”. The candidate where even if the process gets pulled and they lose headcount permission, they want to make a way to hire you and find a way.
#3- would not speak to toxic culture as a reason for departure. It’s a small world, if your founder/PM sucks, everyone in the industry already knows it. If someone in the interview brings it up themselves, dont feed into it. Just say yeah not the easiest place to work, but honestly there’s all sorts of characters in this business. If it was just that maybe would be fine, but I’m looking for something that is … x, y, x.
#4- pedigree doesn’t really matter much anymore. Now that you’re already working, it’s presumed that youre a real guy. It’s all about skill, training, drive, and grit. Make sure you have very sharp pitches and know your stuff cold.
#5- be a killer. Everyone wants a killer. Don’t go pussy footing around. It’s really hard hiring junior folks because generationally you all just seem much softer. If you’re a junior talent that have a killer mentality, that is highly employable
That’s life man. It is mathematically impossible for everyone to have their dream job at any given point in time. Everyone wants to be Warren Buffett but there can only be one.
Just keep your head down and keep on going. It took me 5 years to break into the industry. You need to be fully prepared and when luck comes your way, you’ve got to turn it into an opportunity.
Are you in a HF? Wondering what you mean by industry…whether HF or just broadly
LO shop
It's all a numbers game buddy, gotta keep grinding. I submitted >200 applications as a senior and interviewed at ~40 places. Only made it past 1st round at like half of those and final rounds at maybe a third of those. Your performance so far indicates you're a smart candidate, it's just finding the right fit. You'll get there!
Thanks everyone! OP here. I'm still trying to tough it out in the rough culture... I have been fortunate to receive 6 interviews since the post, so I'm hoping one of them works out! Have analyzed past mistakes and improved on them subsequently. I will update the post hopefully soon with something new. Very helpful advice and encouragement here, and grateful for the community.
Keep your head up king. All you need is one.
DM me
I am in a very similar boat. I’ve been in SS research for almost 4 years working for a toxic senior analyst that drives me absolutely insane and getting horrible bonuses because my bank is cheap. I started doing buyside interview processes about 2 years ago and have gotten really really close in 5 of them. I know I am capable given I’ve gotten so close multiple times but I’m not sure what to do at this point because I want to just quit to get away from this job. I’m controlling everything I can control in terms of self study and preparation for interviews but the industry is just so hard to break into.
DM me.
For anyone that went through final rounds, how often do you get ghosted vs. got a reply (either yes or no)?
Is it normal to assume if you've made it to the final rounds, they should at least give you a firm conclusion?
Yes, they should. I’ve had one experience where I did not hear back after a final round, and I followed up multiple times in the weeks (once per week) afterwards until they finally got back to me. I knew it was a no after not hearing back for two weeks, but I was still determined to get a response out of principle.
OP here with an update. Two more final rounds later finally received an offer!
congrats man
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