Dealing with an incompetent boss
Since starting in the investment banking realm, upon completion of grad school, I have worked at a total of three firms (two FT one internship). Since I've started my new job, there is one jack ass who does not see the benefit of changing old ways, incorporating new ideas, in order to make work flow more efficient.
I am not a mean person, and I have tried every way to negotiate with him. At this point it seems he is so hard headed that he is acting irrational. Everyone else within the firm has warned me that he is the old school grouch that listens to no one, and I have tried every rational logical way to try and connect with him.
Any thoughts? Any suggestions?
Backstory: Every firm I have worked for, I have found flaws that are easily fixable, and everyone from the analyst all the way to the MD's have had great gratitude for me streamlining the process and make the work more efficient, except for this guy.
He is also one of the kind of people that say "I have been in this business for 20+ years, so I know what I'm doing." I hate people like this.
You are not the boss and changing your attitude to a more positive one will help your big ego.
How to Deal With Dumb-as* Boss (Originally Posted: 11/04/2014)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0zv03jCrRg Some people can't be changed, but maybe this can spark an idea
Shit on his desk. Do drugs. Pass out in a sewer. Find a giant fish. Fuck its brains out.
Follow the shit your fellow monkeys say @shitWSOsays
Life is hard, it's even harder when you're stupid - John Wayne
do you work for a good company? if not, start looking.
you shouldn't be trying to outsmart your boss, he's a colleague, not a rival. you shouldn't judge people based on their college, plenty of non targets are way smarter than you. if you're confident in your product, your boss shouldn't care about the method, only the result. so when he asks you to analyze something, do it your way and see if he gets it. if it's the desired result, it shouldn't matter.
but yeah, first thing's first, lose that attitude, it sounds like you're the jerk in the office, starting arguments in the office because you went to a higher tier school than him. I know it's a rant, but you sound like a total douche.
Ha, this is not a debate about target versus none - target, CFA versus none CFA. It's about a guy who is clearly not capable of doing his job but pretends he is and let others clean his shit.
It's been several times that he insisted on completing something in his way, and wasted 90% of the budgeted time. If his boss found the deliverables subpar, this guy would dump the work to me - 9 out of 10 times I needed to redo the whole thing at the last minute.
I never openly complained, but it's clearly very frustrating.
This company is just a stepping stone.
it sounds like you're a perennial complainer, fail to look for alternatives, and are destined to be miserable. I award you no points, and may god have mercy on your soul.
either that or you just need a good boning, in which case download tinder.
That's a lot of attitude for someone low on the totem pole to have. Respect the hierarchy/chain of command, not doing so is only going to set you back, which makes you the fool. If your boss tells you to do something a certain way, do it that way. There are ways to bring up your ideas and "win" someone to your way of thinking without being confrontational or holier than thou about it. For now, you need to focus on putting on your big-boy pants and growing up.
Thanks, I am a girl.
You mention "no name college" twice in your rant and you say you are working towards a MBA. That comparison alone leads me to believe you have a very pompous attitude.
Can you elaborate on why it is laughable when he asks you to do some financial analysis? Also, how are you contributing to your company? Any results?
Good question. I have worked on more than 8 multi-million investment deals for the company so far, when the guys have never directly involved in any deals - before he was magically promoted to this role 2 months ago he was the head of back office operations.
He used to ask me to teach him a simple excel function (think goal - seek, pivot table) 7 times so he could understand. No exaggeration.
I think he should stay back office. This job is too much for him.
At the end of the day you can have all the professional acronyms you want, but your boss's stay-so will still mean more. Get off of your high horse and play the game, or leave. Simple.
Unfortunately I have budgeted another 8 months to work for this company. I need to find a way to deal with my boss before I lose my sanity.
Lol this thread is such Clown shoe. OP needs to learn humility.
I am SHOCKED by the tinder suggestion. I wouldn't say I am a 10, but surely enough to be called attractive.
I'm sorry this post and the attitude it illustrates is a pet peeve. Let me spell it out for you OP. He went from back office to some form of management in the front office. Which means he was doing something right, either the company values him or someone high up the food chain (or both) does. Going against that is stupid, plain and simple.
As @"Dingdong08" pointed out, learning some of the finer points of the ropes doesn't make him a moron or you superior. It does highlight that you missed a perfect opportunity to ingratiate yourself to a superior, as in, approach the situation with a "no problem, I'm here to help and get shit done" attitude. That attitude can only open doors and lead to upside.
Your chosen, holier than thou attitude on the other hand can ONLY lead to downside. For a few tasks you ended up having to do anyways and passing on some excel knowledge etc, that was the "cost" of earning that goodwill, I view that as pennies on the dollar. It's pretty clear to me who is the "dumb-as*" in this situation. I only wish that all my superiors/bosses/managers had made it so easy to earn points.
Next time, throw a saddle on the gift horse.
Thanks. This guy's EQ is certainly high enough to make the MD here like him.
Yep, I will change my attitude, maybe some good boning helps.
Have to ask yourself what is more important to you: being right, smarter, superior, etc. OR more money, better reviews, a superior who goes to bat for you, and maybe even a letter of rec for that MBA. Being "better" than your coworkers or your boss counts for surprisingly little, gotta play the game. Even if you don't care about seeing this guy fall on his face, you should see the selfish benefits of helping him out.
Monday Therapy - Bosses Being Stupid (Originally Posted: 08/19/2013)
My boss is worse than a jealous girlfriend.
On Friday, on the way to work, my radiator blew. Engine overheated, car got towed to a garage, etc. $500 later everything was good, but I had to call work and let them know I would have to work from home as there was no way for me to get into the city. I went home, logged into the network from my laptop, cold called from my phone, and had a decently productive day.
Today, after my group's conference call, the same principal that has been giving me shit lately ( http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/blog/miserable-day-in-the-life-commercial-real-estate-broker ) told me to hang around after. He asked me how my weekend went, so I told him I did nothing on Friday, hung out with some friends on Saturday, got dinner with my mom Saturday night (Thursday was my birthday), and watched TV while prepping for work on Sunday. All of this is true.
He asked how my car situation was going and I told him exactly what happened. He then commented on how it was convenient that my car broke down on Friday, the day after my birthday. I told him that it wasn't really convenient at all considering I had to bum rides like a 15 year old, including one off my mom, and missed out on some fun I would have otherwise enjoyed until it got fixed. He then insinuated that I was out interviewing.
I literally took my phone out and showed him the picture I took of my car, raised up, in the garage that I had sent to some friends along the lines of a "Happy birthday to me…" text. He then goes "I'm just kidding around man, you don't have to be so serious."
He was not kidding around.
So, I figured I'd ask and see if anyone else had some dumbass or annoying stories they wanted to share about their boss being paranoid, petty, or a jackass.
Commercial Real Estate Developer
One time I came in on the weekend both days; then my boss tells me he can't go in - as I'm covering for everyone, I call him and he's out on the beach. True story - but w/e, that's banking dawg.
Whenever I wear a full suit, my boss/MD asks what I have to do that I have to dress all fancy. Mind you I work in middle office at a BB so business casual is the norm. Truth is it is because I'm usually interviewing somewhere else, even though she is paranoid, she is also right. :)
edit: That your actual car?
Yea man, that's why he is the boss. Standard.
Hah, I wish. I drive an Acura
Commercial Real Estate Developer
If a boss is concerned that their direct reports are interviewing around....they're probably not a very good boss to begin with.
I knew a VP that was an absolute terror when it came to sleuthing around to find out what his analysts were up to. He would stare over your shoulder and look at the tabbed browser windows and ask to see what was in the "Gmail - Job" tab. Anytime you had a doctors appointment he would grill you on where you had been. Thankfully I never worked for him as the guy was a total joke. All of his analysts did leave eventually..
I hate when people follow up with "Just kidding". Don't be a bitch. Say what you mean and when you're kidding make me laugh funny man.
If this is your direct boss you need a new job. The guy sounds like a prick, people like that are not going to help you obtain more responsibility in the future. That is for sure.
hah, yep. Taking the GMAT and applying around as well.
Don't want this to just be about me though. I want to hear stories up there with those horrible interview questions.
Commercial Real Estate Developer
This is what's considered a bad boss in IB? I thought you guys got shat on all day, every day.
I don't think WSP is in IB. I know I'm not.
I wouldn't mind catching heat if I performed poorly or slowly or something. That's life. But catching heat for nonsense is the worst.
Commercial Real Estate Developer
It seems like your bosses are making you miserable every day. They sound like dicks.
Oh, my bad. I thought the people from WSP were in IB or PE.
How many people run that site anyway? Is it just friends who all work in finance or do they work together? Or in the same industry, at least.
Hah, lately he definitely has been. Ah well, this shit happens I guess
Commercial Real Estate Developer
A few months ago an associate told me to adjust my numbers and assumptions (I didn't agree but had no choice but to obey). The VP takes a look at it days later and starts lecturing me on how I can't be making up stuff and should ask questions instead if I'm having trouble. I wanted to kill both the associate and VP that day. No worst feeling than getting blamed for someone else's incompetence..
Will probably catch another down vote for this but the point is who is the person in charge?
There are a lot of guys who don't matter that will bcc you and try to throw you under the bus, check your web browser etc, but if the person doing this is responsible for your promotion (or exit) you're better off leaving.
You are an analyst up for associate promote... The Directors and MD's all like you but one VP hates you and does this to you... You should likely stay because politically you're better off and will likely move up (you have the majority on your side)
Second example: Same situation but the Head of the group is doing this or a director or a small group where the VP carries heavy weight... Then it is time to leave because they will get in your way of the promotion.
Hope that clears things up. If you have the majority you stay if you are going to be blocked politically forever, you more likely than not, have to leave.
Every firm you work for, yes you will work for a bunch of assholes at some point. The idea is if you have the majority to move up or not.
@fez if possible, try to get all changes in email. If he told you to change numbers randomly and is a poorly perceived associate you may have to simply ask the VP directly. Yes you are ruffling feathers at this point, but if you don't have things in writing it is much harder to make a case for yourself (of course do not do this as a summer intern)
Always better to say "I did exactly as I was told"
Either way that will happen at some point in your career.
My boss is awesome and he just gave me some tickets for 3 NFL games! What a bro!!! He did not even know my birthday was this weekend ;)
You're in banking and you're allowed weekends off? Hmm...
Commercial Real Estate Developer
I never said it was off! He was not in on Saturday, travelling for business so he did not know. Btw is that red Mercedes yours? Nice ride!
Be nicer if it were burgundy...
Sounds like a pretty toxic environment bruh bruh.
Maybe shit on Debra's desk and see where the night takes you?
Your bosses sound like complete idiots. I have friends in CBRE and HFF and they love their jobs. If I were you I would get him so angry that he punches you in the face. Then I would sue and take him for everything he has.
or you could hire me to do it...like I always say four arms are better than one.
"four arms are better than one"
Uh what? 4 eyes? Are you high?
@RustyFork : That was his thread
Advice wanted; Stupid CIO, bosses, investment officers and CFOs (Originally Posted: 11/28/2014)
I work in corporate planning, corporate development, investment function at a large multinational enterprise ("Company"). My boss is an idiot. I don't know if you guys know but most corporations have contacts with buy side of investment banks (for investment) and corporate side (for example cash management system). Usually both sides are served by similar banks. For example JPM can offer both through Chase and their AM unit. HSBC, for example, serves both sides for the same clients (its a conflict of interest, but things like this happen every single day).
We have a portfolio with a considerable amount and the majority of this is invested indirectly with PB/AM of Wall Street firms. My boss who is supposed to the head of dept, does not understand finance and investment at all and I have a feeling, a strong feeling that buy side of the Wall Street firms started to look down on us.
My boss's financial knowledge comes from the Financial Times and questions he asks are nothing short of complete stupidity. Worse, he is hierarchical, meaning that no one wants to correct him, hence his complete foolishness continues. What a buy side relationship manager does now is to take this idiot out for breakfast every now and then and explains that our money is fine with them. Basically we are paying a horrendous amount/fees for a series of breakfast. This guy wants to talk finance with the buy-side guys, but doesn't understand finance, so quotes articles/what he read on paper while talking to these Wall Street guys and, of course, Wall Street guys just humor this guy with some obvious answers. This guy doesn't even know what "exotic option" is.
Now this guy is a good ass kisser and good with the management and board of the Company. No one on the board understands how the dept is run, so they think this idiot is someone. This guy talks like a **** for hours and hours once he starts talking, no one (so analysts, associates, VPs) wants to talk to this guy. We do our jobs and we spend more than half of our time thinking how not to get into an argument with this guy when we have to report something (after all we need "ok" from this fool). So more than half of what goes on in the office, this guy has no ****ing idea.
Basically what I want is I want this idiot gone so that people who can actually get things done get on with their jobs. This man is ruining everything.
What would you do?
I mean corporations are unnecessarily complex now but this degree of stupidity shouldn't be allowed. Any opinions, much appreciated. Happy Thanksgiving!
some men aren't looking for anything logical. they can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. some men just want to watch the world burn.
I've gotta be honest with you guys. I don't know anything about tracking chickens I just did it for the free liquor.
This has to be a quote from somewhere? It feels like Archer, maybe?
This guy comes from investment banking, M&A background. A wrong man for the job. The man understands nothing about buy-side investment. Also this idiot has MBA from a leading university (that just proves how useless MBA is in terms of learning finance and investment). Stupid, stupid, stupid.
He says his job is to maintain a relationship with other firms and companies (means that the office runs without this man) and couldn't give a proper job description of his. A complete waste of money and space. What I hate most about this guy is he takes other people's time(who are actually doing the jobs).
Go somewhere else.
Quit bitching and get to work chief
Dealing with stupid superior (Originally Posted: 04/06/2012)
How do you deal with line managers who you know aren't right but because of their position in the company can fuck you if you show them (and everyone around) that they're wrong.
called passing the buck
You don't show everyone around that they're wrong. Ask to talk to them on the side and diplomatically express your reservations about their ideas calmly and coherently. Never tell them that they're "wrong". Do your homework and come up with a better suggestion and show them with facts why it might be a more logical alternative.
TL:DR: Use some common sense.
Ok, you can talk things out once, but let's assume situation is constant.
There's a person who is not very good at what he does and he has his ideas on what should be done.
And then let's assume you've worked on similar things many times before with much senior people and the work you did was very good. Now the person who is your immediate superior tries to talk you into some work which is actually not needed and give you some additional burden becuase you were trying to be smart..
Here I'm talking about "boss" who is a nitpicker..
knock him the fuck out
simple. time to grow up and play the corporate game. stay low and take it like a man. no whining or bitching. strategize and pick your fights. only go for the blow if you are certain you will win that battle.
this - though easier said than done.
Your job is to make your manager look good.
So, you ask him a lot of questions. Particularly when nobody else is watching. Your goal is to get them to realize on their own that they're wrong without saying it as such.
bingo...illini dead on.
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I wish i could apply your insight on how to do it calmly, but I just can't when I know someone is messing with me just because he is higher on the ladder..
And I can be right about my ideas but eventually I will get bad feedback for doing very good job just because of some stupid asshole. Damn. I hate politics.
go above his head or take and ed op out in the ny times
Had a manager like this before. With hard bodied people sometimes logical qualitative arguments won't hit home, so you have to resort to hard quantitative data to prove your point. If you can show some hard numbers that back your reasoning (whether it be money saved, time saved etc.), this can often help. Investment bankers are numbers oriented people and the numbers never lie.
Always try exhausting different avenues but if the boss demands that you to drop your argument. It is sometimes best to live and fight another day.
Would also recommend discussing this with another boss you've developed a relationship with on the floor, who can either reason with the individual in question or provide you some insight on how to deal with them. Developing relationships and getting people "in your bullpen" is a big factor for success at large firms, so you should be networking with the other bosses on the floor regardless.
Son, can you get off of WSO and call up the elevator operator to make sure he is at his post? Been waiting 20 minutes here in the lobby.
Also can you order some new mechanical adding machines? Going to be a busy weekend recalculating some IRRs and we need all of the capacity we can get.
Dealing with an incompetent boss: welcome to banking.
I had one of these back in the day (at my pwm firm). Everyone who worked for him before me hated the guy and most junior staff were terrified of him. One analyst that reported to him directly actually asked him once for mentorship and to help understand how to improve performance as a junior employee and the guy literally told him to get the fuck out of his office.
He and I actually developed a good working rapport. In my other roles, I've really pushed the boundaries of the box to help improve procedures and ways of getting work done. This guy just wanted someone to come in and get his shit done for him the same way it had been done for thirty years. I did a good job, put my head down, and fit into the mold he had built for himself (he was, after all, an important part of my performance review). Rather than pushing out of his little box, I pushed into it, took his criticisms and did it all his way. He loved it, because knowing I was getting shit done his way meant he could take more martini lunches and not worry about shit hitting the fan. That meant I had time for other pursuits in the office.
At the same time, I found the extra projects and opportunities to go above in beyond in different areas - through some lateral work with other managers, and in some national level procedural work that helped pushed policies from the top down.
This also meant that after a year, I had proven that I could work with one of the toughest managers in the firm, which opened the door for two rapid promotions into a fast growing part of the business.
I get that your situation might not allow for this, if these inefficiencies of yours mean that you're pumping out work at 3am every night. I was also at a more junior level then than you likely are now. But some food for thought.
How far into his box did you push?
Alllll the way up inside there.
Why are people on this forum so defensive of MDs?
You need to leave the firm. You're going to be viewed as a dissenter and that boss isn't going to advocate for your for promotion. I mean you could stay if others who can give you a year end review have a lot of clout with this superior but otherwise it's a sinking ship career for you.
Not sure what percentage of "efficiency" ideas I've heard that would make junior bankers' lives easier by compromising the quality of a pitch, cutting a corner on execution, or otherwise making senior bankers' lives more difficult, but it's a lot of them. I'm also curious what kind of improvements to your workflow need to be approved or even mentioned to the MD. If your work is correct and done on time, what do they care?
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