Currently a post MBA associate who joined this past fall. While the new analysts generally listen and take on a fair allocation of the work, most of the second year analysts give no shits and blow associates in the group off. I knew going in that buyside recruiting and 2022 offers would make some of the second year analysts "check out" to an extent, and I get they have more experience.
But I was taken aback by the amount that they push back, their level of cockiness towards peers, and flat-out unwillingness to do work. And I'm not talking about analysts being turned off by orders being barked to them by a clueless associate. There are instances where I simply ask them to split the work, and they are always "tied up" with something else. I thought the first time it was a one-off occurrence, but it's happened enough times to be a common thing.
Is this a common occurrence across all groups and all years, or is this unique to my group/bank/2021 (I'm at a highly regarded MM if that means anything)? How do you recommend I handle this? I want them to put in their fair share of the work but also don't want to come across as abrasive to the point that they don't help at all, and I get a reputation as a douche associate.
what if they're actually just tied up
What if you’re a useless post mba associate?
I’d consider myself a net negative at this point, but not for long. That doesn’t address the point though… I’m trying to find a way to get 2nd year analysts more engaged in order to most efficiently and equitably distribute the work. How exactly to achieve this is up for debate, but it’s certainly not by me cranking away for 10 hours on a Sunday while the analyst is hung over/does nothing. I’m asking if that’s par for the course at this point.
If you want to talk equitably, you probably have a few dozen weekends glued at the desk to catch up to the AN2s. Seriously though, you should not be distributing work to AN2s so that you can free up your weekend and not have to grind. You just started and they have more influence in and are more valuable to the group than you at this point.
If you're passing off work that you could do but for having to grind over the weekend, the only AN2s who are going to take those asks are either too much of a pussy to say no or not any good and feel that they can only add value by putting their hand up for everything.
Gonna second BBA18. IMO, you honestly never had the analyst experience and can't really relate to their workload/responsibility. You make this obvious in the thread here whining about a 10 hour Sunday. I bet you your 2nd years have had a few dozen more of those than you. You're also talking about equitability here. This is corporate America, and IB in particular. Nothing is equitable or fair in the least. And the fact that you're implying that your 2nd years are "hung over" or "doing nothing" while making you do 10 hours of work on a Sunday? How fucking delusional can you be, Jesus Christ. And you're talking about professionalism and respect? They're working 100 hours a week. What more respect do you want from them you fucker. I got out of IB as an analyst and will always stand up for my fellow analysts against post-MBA terrors and the like such as this one.
Gonna ask me, "who hurt you?" A couple of Post-MBA associates did. That's why I make posts like these so more analysts don't get hurt in the future like me.
Stop looking at it through a post mba viewpoint and start looking at it from their POV. They’ve been there a year and the rose color glasses are gone. They know they can lateral pretty easily. You’re a new guy that’s been on the desk what? 6-8 weeks?
If you were in their shoes, would you honestly be eager to do any additional work? The realistic answer for most people is no. The name of the game is to look busy and do as little as possible.
Hmm, yeah this is me (not at an MM though so not literally me). I've accepted an offer to leave the firm in 8 months, so I'm pretty checked out. I ate shit for my first year and grinded my ass off, so now I let the new joiners to do that. To be blunt, I'm not trying to find the most efficient and equitable way to distribute the work. I still do good work for people I like, just on my own time. It's the way she goes, 2nd year analysts who have jobs lined up tend to check out as there is no incentive for them not to.
Hard truths from the guy in the chair, boys.
Dude you just joined. They've been slaving away for over a year have probably accumulated thousands of hours online. You should be taking on more of the work so you can ramp up quicker. I'm not one to allow laziness to slide, but if they've been at the bank for just over a year now and all since this new COVID environment they've probably gone through hell and back. You think they haven't gone through the grueling weeks and 10 hour Sundays?
Right now, you are in the same boat as a new first year analysts straight out of school except you're currently costing the firm more. Once you ramp up and no longer a net negative for the firm then maybe you can look into if your analysts are really just blowing you off.
Lol a 10 hour Sunday. Does OP want a gold star?
Try grinding so hard that you open up your laptop on a Saturday afternoon only to look up and find that it’s now Sunday morning and that you haven’t had solid food in over 19 hours.
Career pivots after bschools should be illegal
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Maybe they're actually tied up? Senior analysts tend to be staffed on more live / active deals as opposed to people who just hit the desk. Or maybe they are just coasting bc this job gets really boring after a year. Either way, hope you're splitting up the work as well rather than just allocating..
also I'm currently a senior analyst with the exact opposite issue.. wondering how to deal with associates who refuse to work. pls fix.
Some of these associates with WFH have just completely given up on work.. dealing with two that solely send emails to big group chains and check in on work. Don’t even check deliverables because they trust second years. Maddening. Want to go to my MD and just tell them to get rid of the associate and plug me in with the salary bump and incremental responsibility
Bro you literally just joined. What are specific examples of what work you're trying to push off? For all intents and purposes you are at the bottom of the totem pole.
I mean speaking as one, 2nd year analysts are not gods greatest gift on earth, yeah we all likely got our shit rocked thru covid last year but this associate seems to have pretty reasonable requests, esp. after big raises, big bonuses, and for the most part a better respect/acknowledgement of WLB, contributing to the team shouldn't be that big on an ask.
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Lol shut up intern
Honest advice(been in same shoes)
If you really put in the work (stay up late, take as much work as possible), a generally decent 2nd year will feel bad letting you pull all nighters solo and will pitch in.
They are burned out, but most are generally good teammates and they will want you to not die if they see you getting crushed willingly.
Breezy, you ask a reasonable question and seem to be making a reasonable request -- that the analysts at least contribute a reasonable amount of their time and do (a portion) of the work that they're being paid handsomely for. I find some of the vitriol against you quite strange, and it's surprising that many analysts don't morally feel compelled to contribute their fair share.
I am going to assume that you are a Prospect (since your title says so). The question you propose is more or less "What is moral in the world of Banking?". This question I find trivial. Is it moral for a director to keep an analyst up all night? Is it moral for the VPs and Associates to ping Analyst during vacations for menial task to the point of ruining their lives? At what point is moral to steal time from protected Saturdays for wild pitches that will probably not stick?
Do you get what I am saying? The question of internal morality gets swayed into the gray so often when you get wronged by others. After your first few times of having to cancel weekend plans for a Friday night ask at 7pm when your VP was sitting on the email for 2 days, you will then understand that many analyst will try and hold on to what little life they have in the WLB.
Personally, my sympathies, and Im sorry you are put in this situation. That said, here’s really the logic of most second years:
Unfortunately as a 2nd year with a job lined up—I’m basically going to tell you to f**k off if you ask me to do something as a new hire. I get you think you are supposed to be managing me, but I know more than you about this industry, so I’m not going to listen to anything you say really. I also know you have no political capital and even if you have political capital, you aren’t going to change my bucket because my rep has been built already. The firm has treated me like crap and I’m trying to do the bare minimum until I go. It’s not personal, it’s business. The firm used me and I am using them for the last several months. Ultimately I know I’m still very valuable because when a crisis comes up I’m way better than a new hire, but I’m done with the bullshit. I also know where my comp will be and little will change my bucket because everyone knows I am solid even if I dodge work. Also, let’s be very clear, even with me dodging work, I’m a way better employee than you are as a new hire. I understand this is frustrating, but it’s the business model of banking. They know the second years will check out and that’s why they have eager new hires to carry the grunt tasks. We went through it and sadly it’s how the job is as a first year—analyst or MBA associate.
If someone I respect asks me to do something or a crisis comes up I always step up and deliver, that’s my professional curtesy. I also never am unresponsive. Unfortunately, “dividing work” like creating bs presentations is going to be something I will consistently dodge from here on out because I just don’t care. I’m not going to take initiative because I don’t care about the transaction and know most the deliverables aren’t as urgent as they seem or can be phoned in because a poor work product isn’t going to actually matter for many tasks (even though people act like it does) and those that I have worked with all know I can perform when it matters, I just respect myself too much to do tasks that take up time without teaching me anything or really being value add to the transaction.
If this is a recurring theme with a single analyst, you can explicitly call them out and ask them to do something, but if they say they are busy, they either might be busy, or they are dodging work and you can’t really prove one or the other.
This thread is a good example of why banking is broken.
juniors are abused so hard an employee with only ONE YEAR experience is essentially just coasting and burned the fuck out because the previous first year was like hell.
then all the new shit tasks then get passed on to the new first years....while the second years are counting the days they get peace out. cycle continues.
in ANY other industry - a second year employee isnt some tenured wise contributor that can start coasting. they are still learning, participating and being mentored. there isnt some adversarial relationship between another employee that has 1 less year experience.
its ridiculous when you really think about it
make a list, tell the staffer VP the situation, and make the point "this analyst just refuses to work...they are 100% checked out as far as i can tell, and should either be fired immediately, or removed from my list of potential recourses. They may be capable of doing the work, but they have chosen not to, and are effectively dead weight as far as i can tell. If they have another job lined up, then fine, let them be unemployed for the next xx months until that new job starts, but this is untenable."
The staffer would literally laugh in your face if you said this. I've seen a handful of fresh MBAs try to muscle 2nd years or complain and it starts them off on the wrong foot, to say the least.
You can nudge the analysts a bit, but a 2 month old associate complaining about senior analysts is not going to go over well. The senior analysts have other projects, likely live deals, that the staffer will say they are working on. It's not like they are sitting around, they just don't want to do BS work like comps or profiles.
If they are unresponsive, fine - but a brand new associate should be doing the majority of the work at this stage, not tattling on coworkers.
When I became the more senior analyst in my IB group, this became a problem as well with my peers when I would ask for help or needed to defer staffings to other non-busy analysts. Especially with WFH, it was so easy for people to appear busy and say they're always jammed up even when they weren't and avoid taking on work. I literally had these people on social media and they would be travelling/partying/socializing during regular working hours (not even banking working hours) while I was grinding away for 80+ hours / week, and saying they were "tied up". It's not fun, it's not fair, but come time for reviews and bonuses, you can usually make your voice heard. Between now and then, you just have to make up for the work that others won't do. If it becomes an ongoing problem with a select analyst or two, I would elevate the issue to the appropriate person in the appropriate manner just so that it's made known and people can keep tabs on it between now and bonus time. It got so bad in my group at one point that we literally had an analyst go on a month-long mountain-climbing and ski-trip excursion in Pakistan without taking any PTO, without giving any notice to anybody at all, and without doing any work. Couldn't even get a hold of him. Off the grid. Getting paid as a 3rd/4th year. Incredibly frustrating. Nothing to do.
Also lol @ everyone defending lazy-ass, entitled, bad attitude analysts in here. Just because you've been in the "trenches" for one whole year (wow, so impressive) does not mean you can blow off work you deem is beneath you to a first-year analyst or new MBA associate. You're still getting fucking paid to do your job, so do it. I don't care how many times you've spread comps; you're collecting checks so spread them. I grinded through three years as an analyst and did what the fuck I was told to do. Were some tasks more annoying and rote than others? Yes. But if you're already fully checked out and unwilling to do them, just quit and sit at home until your new start date at job B. You're literally stealing if you collect checks and don't do reasonable quality work. This type of shit entitled attitude (and the associates that are defending it) is endemic to Gen Z imo.
“You’re literally stealing if you’re not doing reasonable quality work”
As someone who has sucked the cock of capitalism my entire life, I pray to god I never reach this extreme. Just sad mate.
Most analysts are pretty professional - they contribute their fair share of work even after securing a PE offer. However, some are indeed entitled and unmotivated. There was this particular kid who was constantly avoiding work and I decide to speak to his staffer and MDs and my Senior MD told him upfront that he can easily call the PE firm to get them to withdraw the offer if he continues in this way and that pretty much shook him up. It is pretty hard as a new associate, and some cases I had to work across multiple deal with no VPs so I was ultimately responsible for the whole deck (planning , creating, and checking the content). I trust my analysts but you still have to check their work regardless because if anything goes wrong it is on you not them and they don’t realize that it could take up quite some time to create content and check their work especially if dealing with modeling stuff. Some analysts think that just because they have grind through for a year (and that New Asso haven’t), the associates should be doing most of the work to ‘learn’. Thank god most of them I have worked with are pretty professional so I guess it highly dependent on your team.
READ THIS you stupid 23 year old immature kids. Do your stupid needy grindy work until you leave that firm otherwise no fucking PRivaTe eQuity for you.
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Haven't seen anyone give a very reasonable managerial response besides "do the work yourself".
Pull the analyst aside for a 15-30 minute meeting. Tell them you've been tasked with managing XYZ project and as a result you need more support. Your intention was to come to them since you've heard good things and were referred by staffer, but after doing so it became clear that they are very busy and unavailable, which therefore is putting significant pressure on the team.... now here is where you make an impact, ask them "how can I help you? what support do you need? is there anything I can fight to get you which would make your job better and free up time for other projects."
Guarantee they will give you some pieces to work with. Take a few of them seriously, do whatever you can to support them. You've now got that analyst in your pocket becuase you've shown that you "care" about them. That analyst will suddenly find free time for you on the next project.
Wow! You’re getting a lot of heat. I’m in the same shoes.
I think it’s similar to what you said (paraphrasing) “10% of the time you can’t get them to do anything”. And by the way, this isn’t unique to banking. Every job will have people that “play the game” and avoid work. Also keep in mind they probably feel like they’re working really hard. That doesn’t help you get them to work more but it may help you understand why they’re not working and at least give you some piece of mind.
I’ve had situations where juniors had been at the firm a long time so they had political capital and therefore knew they didn’t have to take sht from new people.
I’ve also what juniors that will eventually give you respect. But like you’d expect you have to earn it.
You can do that by doing simple things.
- If you’re done your work and they’re still there offer to help them. Especially if you’re willing to help do something menial. If you feel menial tasks are beneath you then that’s part of the problem.
- Similar to the last point. Help take things off their desk. This gives them support. But also puts pressure on that work needs to be done.
- This is harder, but earn their respect by finding errors in their work. This shows you know your sht. I’ve found it’s helpful if you are polite about the errors. Instead of throwing it in their face - like they’re supposed to produce perfect work.
- Again, harder, but show you know your stuff. If there’s a debate and you are right (and are gracious about it) that obviously builds respect. And shows why you are more senior to them.
- Lastly, don’t be afraid to praise them publicly. At my old shop we’d often email someone senior, praising a junior and copy the junior. This helps make them feel supported and will make them more likely to help you/ like you. This is also a sneaky way to highlight your own success because if they did something good you’re their boss so you did a good job managing them and positioning them to succeed.
Hopefully this is helpful. Best way is to show you know more than them but that may be hard. But there are other things, work hard. Help them. Things will get better.