Middle Market IB Exit Ops: Is WSO wrong?
Is the WSO consensus that you have to be in a bulge bracket / prestigious analyst program to exit to a good private equity shop correct? After going through the FT recruiting process as a senior, and talking to a number of small MM banking groups, it seems that great exit ops into PE are available at pretty much any of these firms - Oppenheimer, Lincoln, Edgeview, etc. Not just the "better" ones like William Blair, HLHZ, and Harris Williams. For example, even Raymond James' Boston office had analysts go to Summit Partners and Flexpoint Ford this summer. Has anyone even heard of this group? The caveat of course is that you probably have to be a top performing analyst at these MMs, but it seems like you'd have to perform to the same standard at a top bank anyways.
Summit is cold calling and no one has heard of flexpoint ford. a good pe firm is like GTCR, Leonard Green, Madison Dearborn, etc.
even so, at cold calling stations like Summit the BB's outnumber the middle markets, also i'm calling u out, where do u see raymond james on this site:
http://www.summitpartners.com/team/by-title.aspx
check again
They may not be mega funds, but they're still very respectable pe shops. The vast majority of other hires are from bbs.
My point is just that you don't necessarily need to go to a bb to get to a solid pe shop. Most people on here will say that if you got to a random mm investment bank, it's extremely tough to get into pe, based on non existent brand. But this doesn't seem to be the case in reality. Top performing analysts at mm ib groups still have plenty of opportunities.
no one mentioned megafunds bro. i'm talking shops with 0 cold calling and over 1-2bn per fund.
also ur proven a liar. there's no one from raymond james on summit's website.
solid pe shop is arguable. what the hell is flexpoint ford. that's not a solid pe shop.
but i agree anyone can go to anywhere from any place. i know a kid at kkr who is a managing director and never even did ibanking. he was ceo or something,
anyways. stop being insecure and go get what u want. this thread is worthless.
Ignore this kid. Although the part about going after what you want is true. The aum of a PE fund does not indicate whether they are "solid" or not. I work at a boutique (and no not a prestigious one, a completely no name one) but my experience has been great and I love it. As I'm networking with headhunters and alumni for a possible switch to pe in a year or two, I have found them both to be very receptive to my experience because I was given so much responsibility and I really understand the deal process as opposed to the much more limited experience you get at larger banks. The megafunds will be out of the question but who cares. As for the banks that you mentioned specifically, I know of several mm PE funds who have those firms at the top of their list and shy away from interviewing bb kids because the skillset they possess is different. Either way, the key is of course to do well in interviews and network your ass off to get said interviews.
Cool it bro. Just to play devil's advocate, the associate the OP is referencing was:
http://www.summitpartners.com/team/Steven-Twomey.aspx
You didn't do a particularly thorough search I see. I'm not in IB and I couldn't care less about the arguments presented but there's no reason to go loco on some poor kid.
N.B. A really quick google search of Flexpoint Ford says it's a 1B AUM firm. I've never heard of it but obviously someone has.
Kobrick, just stick to raping women please, it's the only thing you know how to do.
ROFL ARE YOU SERIOUS
Prior to Summit, Steve worked for Raymond James & Associates and Goldman, Sachs & Co. He holds a BS in management, magna cum laude, from Boston College.
You sure proved me wrong. Sure if you do a stint at goldman ibanking i'm sure u can work at any firm and get an interview at cold call centers at summit. definitely not what the OP is looking for.
also ur reading comprehension is PISS POOR. I said 1bn minimum PER FUND not TOTAL ASSETS UNDER MANAGEMENT.
oh look at that 225mm fund, it sucks bro.
http://www.flexpointford.com/news_06_10_2005.html
ROFL ARE YOU SERIOUS
Prior to Summit, Steve worked for Raymond James & Associates and Goldman, Sachs & Co. He holds a BS in management, magna cum laude, from Boston College.
You sure proved me wrong. Sure if you do a stint at goldman ibanking i'm sure u can work at any firm and get an interview at cold call centers at summit. definitely not what the OP is looking for.
also ur reading comprehension is PISS POOR. I said 1bn minimum PER FUND not TOTAL ASSETS UNDER MANAGEMENT.
oh look at that 225mm fund, it sucks bro.
http://www.flexpointford.com/news_06_10_2005.html
An article from 2005? Relax Chach. Fund III was $950mm.
WSO isn't wrong about anything. The high-school seniors and college freshman, however, are almost always incorrect.
This Steven guy has no idea that there is a thread on him...lol
second, OP you're right. plenty of exit ops to PE. maybe not KKR TPG Carlyle Bain etc. from a MM without having a strong contact, BUT if you do well you can prob be placed well
dont listen to Illinoisprogrammerisajoke...talk to someone you know in the industry if this info is pertitent to you taking a FT offer or smthing
dont trust WSO...or me for that matter lol talk to people you actually know!!
i said u can go anywhere from anywhere. i'm at a boutique too, i'm just saying the op is insecure and classic case of a fellow coworker. i wouldn't be surprised if he was my coworker.
just work hard and show your results through actions, not through posting shit on WSO and looking for reassurance.
This thread definitely devolved into something absolutely meaningless. For someone who works at a MM, I hope I can shed some actual light on this. I'm an analyst at a top MM, and with regards to exit opps, this is what I've seen (with an analyst class ranging around 60-65):
Top PE/HF (Blackstone, Point 72, etc.): 2-4 Very Solid/Well Respected PE/HF (Audax, Magnetar): 6-8 Decent/Average PE: 10-20 Corp Dev at Mostly Mid-Cap/Some Large Cap: 15-20 Stay in Banking (at least for 3rd year analyst/associate level): 15
This is just a rough breakdown, obviously varies year to year. This is based on my experience from what I've seen one year, and from analysts/associates I've spoken to a year before I arrived, so all very recent data. Forewarned, this is a top MM that is increasingly doing BB level deals and has absolutely been crushing it the past 2 years. Now for a middle-of-the-line BB (BAML, Citi), you're doing to have a greater number going to to the top two categories, and less in the bottom three on a percentage basis. That's it. Ultimately, exit opps are what you make of them, and yes, if you are at a MM, you have to be more proactive and definitely distinguish yourself from the BB kids if you want to get the better opps. Realistically, whether you are at a BB or a MM the top PE/HF will always be a reach. It will be easier for the BB kid (unless maybe UBS/Deutsche), but a strong analyst at a MM who can distinguish himself should be able to make it. At the very least, I see no reason why you cannot make it to a very solid/well respected PE/HF from a strong MM if you take initiative and work for it. Hopefully you guys can take something away from this.
Very well put.
Also, people need to start realizing PE is a lot different than IB as far as "prestige" goes. Yes, the MFs will always be MFs as far as name recognition. But many are struggling with their large buyout funds and moving down market. There are plenty of middle market, lower middle market, distressed, etc etc PE funds that kill it on a returns basis - and that's all LPs care about, and theoretically what you should care about since you will ultimately be comped based on performance (assuming you make it far enough to get carry). It's also far easier to move up at a non-MF (and by far easier I really mean still really really hard). There are also significant lifestyle considerations (hours, having to get an MBA, location, etc) to why you wouldn't choose MF.
While true, some of the same problems plaguing MFs are creeping into the MM. Too much demand and too little supply.
Interested in other people's thoughts in respect to top MM banks
"in respect to top MM bank exit opps" I should say
Middle Market IBD marketability (Originally Posted: 04/25/2013)
How good are the middle market exit opportunities really? I've heard that having investment banking on your resume early is a strong path to getting into PE/HF later on. Does this only apply to the Bulge brackets? How much would I differentiate myself by having MM IBD while applying to other jobs later?
you would have a tough time getting into the very big Megafunds, but you'd have a solid shot (depending at the MM fund) at very strong MM PE shops and for HFs, there are no set paths really its not easy no matter where you are coming from (at least from what i've been told)
Any more good ideas?
Would be interested as well
for top MM firms like Harris Williams, William Blair, Baird, Houlihan Lokey etc. they place very well into MM PE because they deal with the PE groups all the time and want you to be a future client
megafunds is a totally different story and you probably will be fighting an uphill battle
MM IBD is a good segue to MM PE and Corp Dev (even at F500).
PE Exit Opps for MM IB analysts (Originally Posted: 03/16/2007)
Do significant PE exit opps exist for MM IB analysts ? Just to clarify, when I say MM, I'm thinking of firms like: DB, BofA, Bear, Jeffries etc.
Do top-tier analysts from these firms have a good shot at being placed at PE shops ? Not necessarily thinking of just Carlyle/KKR/BS but also MM PE shops, do they tend to hire analysts from MM IB ? Because it seems like there's no incentive for them to branch out the BB's, especially considering that the work isn't as manpower intensive as IB, and they can easily satisfy their recruiting needs at the BB's.
You do have a chance, but you probably need to have superior interview skills..odds are slightly stacked against you but by no means is it impossible.
I am no wonder boy...3.6, one of the top liberal arts schools, did 2 yrs at a MM iBank (not even close to bulge here in states and I got a PE job. (not at a mega fund) I would say I have above average interview skills and I got in good with a few recruiters. It definitely was not easy, however.
I know someone at Bear going to KKR in NY next year. He also had offers from Apollo and Ares and alot of final rounds lined up prior to making his decision.
admo: do you know which group he was in at Bear and what school he came out of? Im curious to see what it takes to get into these funds from the MM.
Yeah, they go into PE, mainly in the MM.
From what I hear, HLHZ and Jefferies send a lot of people to MM PE firms. I think HLHZ has a better rep overall with PE, but I can't be sure. I dunno about the rest of the middle market.
HLHZ places pretty well from their top groups. The guy from Bear was a special situation that I don't care to elaborate on.
You'll get interviews at some top shops from a really good MM (Bear for example) if you play the recruiters right; but its an uphill battle.
Also know an analyst from Bear this year who got into Soros Fund Management. I think he had some sort of connections though.. Definitely not a regular thing.
How does one actually get a job with legends like Soros and Icahn?
I met someone last summer who worked for Michael Dell's investment vehicle, he had previously worked for a Swedish Billionaire (can't recall his name) and started off his career as an analyst with Blackstone. Once you're in those circles, it happens through referrals, depending on how good you are of course.
Soros's PE shop is called Towerbrook Investment Partners I think.
Soros's shop split to Towerbrook 2 years ago, and some people left.
I wouldn't call DB or Bear true Middle Market.
I know guys from Bear going to KKR, Soros, BainCap, and TH Lee. DB kids can place the same.
Places like Jeffries, etc.. have significant trouble getting into the Big PE shops.
Seanc, I think the kids going to Soros and KKR were from either TMT or LevFin.
What groups at DB/Bear were these kids mainly from ?
are Lev. Fin at DB (top-notch) or TMT at the other bank.
I know a Bear person going to KKR was in Industrials
the kid going to Soros was in FIG i think
What if 90% of your MM (think HLHZ, Jefco, Harris Williams) group's deal flow comes from PE. Do you have a better chance by proximity?
The Jefferies and the Harris Williams usually don't work with tier 1 or 2 sponsors, so they on the most part don't have relationships there.
The kid going to KKR is from their "GIG" group (Industrials, Consumer, Retail, Chemicals, etc...) and he went to Princeton.
I also know a guy who was from the GIG group that is now in Apollo LA, he is 2 years above the KKR guy
Seanc,
I think the Towerbrook guys broke off from the Soros Fund...but I could be wrong
Westcoasting,
Why was the guy at Bear a special situation?
I know for a fact that Bear placed into THLee and BainCap, not sure which groups they were from though
This is good news, but still an uphill battle, I'd settle for any well-regarded PE though i.e. Madison Dearborn, Warburg Pincus, so let's see how it works out.
what about CS FSG placement?
Being from a group like industrials or FSG puts you in a much better position to do PE as well... something like tech. is not so great unless you've managed to work on a lot of debt/LBO deals somehow. People do get PE jobs at my MM but no one gets into Blackstone, KKR etc.
What MM dosk17?
I know Harris Williams makes a regular practice of sending their analysts out to private equity, as do many firms--it makes strategic sense for them to do so. Granted, you're not going to be going out to big shops like KKR, but the people I know that worked there are now at very nice shops. In fact, now that I think about it, most of the people I know from undergrad who worked with MM firms are now with PEs, with the odd one or two in corporate development.
What kind of shops?
The guy from Bear going to Soros' place is from TMT, which is one of their better groups from what I hear. Funny cause he interviewed me and said he's going to the Soros place, unless there are multiple guys going there from Bear.
soros in SF - guy was from FIG
Southeast MM IB exits (Originally Posted: 04/16/2010)
What would exits be from a smaller MM firm in the Southeast? Does region really matter anyway?
A friend of mine summered at a Southeastern regional boutique last summer and got FT with Moelis. I don't think that's typical but it's definitely a possibility if you have a good experience and network a ton. As for exits after 2 yrs working FT i dunno...I think most often is B-school or lateraling to work with one of the regional's clients you've worked with. Local regional MM PE shops may also be an option.
MM Exits (Originally Posted: 10/16/2013)
Does anyone have any idea on the likelihood of exiting to AM or HF from a solid MM firm (Baird, Lincoln, Jefferies, Harris Williams, Houlihan)?
I've heard PE exits from these firms can be pretty good, but given that I don't really have any interest in PE and would much rather be focused on public markets long-term, what would be my odds if I signed on with one of the above firms? From what I understand, HF recruiting is much more of a crapshoot than PE so it may be hard to tell, but just generally how would this experience be viewed?
Much easier to break into AM than HF, particularly because some of those groups have AM units. HFs generally don't dip down to MM banks b/c they don't need to.
You could potentially land at a fund that operates as a hybrid PE/HF (i.e. Cargill spin-outs). They have trading arms and also make direct investments.
Exit Ops from MM IBD (Originally Posted: 11/08/2010)
Firstly, I'd like to thank WSO as a whole for providing me with the best information that I wasn't able to find anywhere else throughout this entire process. Without the advice I was given, I would not be where I am today.
That being said, now I'm trying to think ahead. During interviews, when they asked where I was going to be in 5 years, I said, "Honestly, I'm going with the flow." Now that I have a good idea what my next two-three years look like, I'm trying to figure out how to best position myself with the next step.
I'm with a solid MM as a generalist (for now). What exit opportunities are there? This is more towards things like private equity, hedge funds, and venture capital. I'm also considering corp dev, but I'd like to know so I come in with a game plan.
One of my favorite things about finance: you can never stop. Thanks in advance!
Do a search man. Have you never read these boards before?
I've done the searches. Lots of great stuff, so this is just sort of the catch-all post.
You just listed most of the traditional exit opportunities, with the exception of business school and maybe joining a start-up (though that seems less "traditional").
It seems like you are just shooting in the dark for people's suggestions on what to do, but it's probably more prudent to search on your own, develop some more specific questions and then come back and post them.
If I was you, I would just do searches for the different types of exit opps on Indeed.com or something of that nature. That should give you a good idea of what they will expect experience wise and what your responsibilities will be and possibly give you a better idea of whether or not you would be interested in pursuing an opportunity in that field.
Also, if you are enjoying where you are at, there might be associate promote opportunities. Outside of that, private equity (MM) will likely be your best match.
Regards
Exit ops for MM analysts (Originally Posted: 01/06/2007)
For those in the know--what are the exit ops for mm m&a analysts. I'm especially interested in private equity (lower mid market?). Would it be best to attempt a bb lateral one year on--or is that frowned upon. What about grad school...does a stint at a fairly decent bank have much pull? Anecdotes appreciated.
anyone have experience?
Depends on the shop. Harris Williams for example focuses on sell-side M&A. They place a few into MM PE shops which they have relationships with.
A lateral move would obviously benefit you in a number of ways (not sure how this would be "frowned" on) -
As far as grad school goes, it depends on the school. Chances are probably good at say W or Chi. HBS for example doesn't have a single piper analyst (from either class)....but one or two from goldsmith agio, Harris Williams, etc...yet Stanford has admitted folks from RBC in the past. It depends. My understanding is that it's becoming intensely competitive for folks in the white bread IB/PE set of applicants..and I doubt having a weak bank helps that.
Experience trumps all, both with a buyout shop and an MBA program. Bulge bracket experience helps to the extent that you're doing real deals, and complex ones. If you're doing cookie cutter sellsides for a middle-market shop or simple stock-for-stock tech deals, then it's a hard sell.
On the other hand, having real experience doing midsize 13E-3s trumps being the monkey running 10-year historical multiples off Thompson for SunGard, hands down.
I've sat on the adcom for a top b-school and still help as a NY interviewer and advisor. We look for "wow" factors. The wow factor for working at Morgan Stanley versus a small bank is limited and doesn't get you much. Tell us what you did, and we'll be a lot more impressed. I hate to say it, but there are a lot of analysts and associate consultants out there. What makes you different?
Tell that story and you'll be a lot better off than trying to leverage your firm's brand. A lateral move tends to hurt rather than help - "why did this guy jump ship?" That question looms a lot larger than brand.
Great advise. Thanks.
I have found that as an analyst at a BB I was doing more cookie cutter client presentations than working on live transactions. I got more experience in the middle market where almost everything that I did was for a live engagement.
Manny07, if you are truly interested in middle market private equity going to a BB, in my opinion, does not help at all. Middle market banks will often help in placement and the good ones (Houlihan, Harris Williams, Edgeview, Piper) put everyone, not just a few, in private equity.
No, the MM firms do not place "everybody" in PE. Differences between HW and say Piper is HUGE. Most banks HATE losing their top guys to PE, what makes the MM any different?
Lets be honest here, IT DEPENDS.
This is actually the truth. I know that Edgeview placed has placed every analyst that's wanted it into PE for the past few years. They pride themselves on this.
Middle market banks do not hate to lose their analysts to private equity. And that's the honest truth.
MM IB to better IB (Originally Posted: 10/14/2010)
Hi
I am a recent grad just got into a regional MM IB. They do about 20 deals a year, mostly co-manager deals. I will be placed under ECM.
Is there any chance to leverage this ECM exp to lateral into better IB (top 20).
I don't understand your post. Lateraling would be better because 20 co managed deals in ecm sounds horrible.
If this is bad, will it hinder my chance to get in better IB?
No, it will depend on your overall resume. That sounds like not such a bad place in reality. Is it JMP Securities by chance? I have heard they do such deals and little M&A.
It's not. its identical JMP. Their IB side is smaller but had done $30+ billion deals (mostly equity just like JMP) over 10 years period compare to JMP's $50 billion. But this MM IB has principle investment and assessment management arms which makes the firm identical by size.
ECM is small in terms of ppl employed. So I will be able to touch all the equity deals for sure, i guess a good overall resume means decent deal exp right?
Yep
MM IB experience (Originally Posted: 08/16/2011)
I will most likely not be able to get into a BB IBD, but I do have opportunities to work for MM IBs. Of these three positions available (corporate finance, Restructuring, Advisory Services), which would I be able to gain the most valuable experience?
Also, what are the chances of being able to land a job at a BB IBD from a MM IB?
Sounds like recruiting with HL; their Corp. Fin is IBD, Restructuring is... Restructuring, and FAS is Accounting type Fairness of Opinion etc. I would say that you either want Corp. Fin or Restructuring.
However, Restructuring might and I'm using the word might as in this is mostly 'hearsay' 'pigeonhole' you into distress or turnaround exit opportunities, again just word I heard, but cannot confirm of course. I think Restructuring is an interesting place to be anyway and I like the segment.
It's been communicated first hand to me from a variety of sources that this B/S on WSO about prestige and laterals and mega-fund crap is overblown and stupid. Once you're at a firm and you are performing well as long as you aren't jumping ship early i.e. moving before 1.5-2 years it is an 'fairly easy' move to a BB position if you're really gunning for it. Of course be prepared to start over as an analyst, but at you get a shot to work at a megafund I guess vs. only MM PE, but pay at junior levels prior to MBA seems like a wash to me (pick some here, lose some there...). Anyway, long story short if you're at a reputable MM firm the chances are high and its not really an issue of non-target, target, etc.
Thanks for the reply BedBep12. Great guess - HL is the the bank. It is considered "reputable"?
After you broke down each area, I feel that Corporate Finance is where I want to be.
So I would have to start as a first year Analyst again if I were to try to break into a BB IBD? That sucks. I guess my best bet would be to get into an elite MBA program and get in through campus recruitment. Do the MBA business schools">M7 MBA schools even consider candidates from MM IBs? I know they have so many applicants coming from the BB firms.
Yes, MBA business schools">M7 programs consider candidates from MM IBs. I know people at Booth and Kellogg from small MM firms that have never even been discussed on this forum.
You should know that their restructuring group is one of the most highly regarded (especially on the creditor side). However, if corp fin is really a better fit, be sure to get into one of their top groups. A few of them are middle-market leaders.
Yes, I know their Restructuring group is very highly regarded. However, like BepBep12 alluded to; I may end up pigeon holded in a particular area of finance. Where can I find resources that will show me what their top groups in Corporate Finance are?
One of the guys I work for went to a top-7 MBA after working at HLHZ restructuring. Houlihan is definitely one of the better-known and better-regarded MM banks, at least for their top groups. One thing to be cautious of is their valuation group, which does more financial reporting/fairness opinion work and is not as well regarded (though still decent and better than a "non-bank" valuation firm like Big 4 IMO).
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