I've realized that the tech lifestyle is a little too slow for me, so I'm looking to make a switch to IB. Studied STEM in school so I don't have formal training in finance, but I learnt how to make DCFs and read SEC filings after going through Point72 Academy's interview process (dinged after case study, but made me interested in finance).
Is an MBA the only way for me to switch to IB? And should I even try for PE/HF roles without one?
I know how to code so startups could be another path, but median outcomes in finance are probably better. Open to changing my opinion here though.
How old are you?
MBA -> IB -> PE is doable, will likely be MM PE and not a MF unless you are a well-connected superstar. or MBA -> IB. IB/PE/HF are not doable without an MBA given lack of financial experience.
That said, and you can read other threads on this... grass is always greener. In IB and PE you'll be working 80+ hour weeks until you're in your 40s, and even as a senior the stress and hours are not that much lower. Yeah, comp is good, but the burnout rate is insanely high and most people switch to corporate-type jobs within a few years, which will be even slower than tech and likely make less money. Even if you make it to the senior level, you will miss your kids' soccer games and work through every weekend, evening, and vacation. Can't tell you how many threads there are around here of people in IB who hate their lives and want to switch to tech.
If you're making good money in tech, I'd try to optimize that as best you can - perhaps switch to a different path within tech... but I would reaaally think hard about dropping a great lifestyle six-figure job for MBA and IB.
Thanks for the details on an MBA. I'm making ~170k in PM roughly 2 years out of college, but a lot of it is in equity that will drop off in a little more than a year, which is when I'd ideally start an MBA.
Your comment makes me think about switching to SWE, since PM hours get relatively worse the higher up you go. I put in 30-35 hours right now, but my boss is almost always online on weekdays, even at 9 pm (granted, my boss is also more ambitious than some other PMs at the same level)
In my IB internship I would see my boss online at midnight. Why not look into starting your own business on the side while you have extra time?
Yeah in IB I regularly see VPs in their mid-late 30s pulling all nighters getting stuff done. 9pm would a pipe dream in IB, literally once a quarter I get off that early, except Fridays (which are still 7-8pm on a good night btw)
If hours are the concern in PM, run far far far away from IB
Could you speak to your experience in PM? Have considered the opposite switch a lot lately so may be helpful perspective.
Yeah I've been looking for people who have switched from PM to finance, yet to find someone.
As for my PM experience, I enjoy everything except the comp. Deciding what my product roadmap will be, talking to customers, and working with the engineers/designers on my team are all things I like doing. There's some parts I tolerate, like getting stakeholders to do something that's important for my product but not so much for their product, but I like most aspects of the job. Let me know if you have other questions.
Why are you considering a switch from IB to PM?
You like everything but the comp and are considering moving? And that is at $170k 2 years out of school? That seems awfully short sighted, especially to consider IB. In your first post you mention the pace of the work but now you are mentioning comp, just trying to make sure you have thought this through.
Finance jobs, and especially IB, are tough. You should really be prepared for what you are getting yourself into. If you are only doing it for the comp, there is a high chance you’ll fail as IB comp (at least at associate level and even VP) isn’t going to blow away the tech PM comp (in terms of meaningfully difference to your life).
Now, if you truly think you’ll enjoy the job, then go for it. But I worry that you are going to waste a lot of time here (an comp opportunity).
Experienced PMs can join unicorns for great salaries and equity packages. These roles will also be faster paced , but you will likely not have to sacrifice your entire life like you would in IB. Why not sharpen your PM skills set and change companies later down the line?
Thanks, that's a perspective I hadn't considered!
What you’re saying doesn’t make sense. The title of the post is “Maximize Income” and then you talk about “median income” in finance being higher. So which one is it? Is your goal to become a multi millionaire at any cost or are you solving for some sort of wlb/comp tradeoff?
yup I should have added that I want to maximize income while minimizing risk as much as possible. Not concerned about WLB. So to answer your question, my goal is to become a multi-millionaire at any cost. A startup is probably the way to go but the odds are pretty low, which is why I'm thinking about finance. What would you say?
Dude this is a really dumb idea. Speaking for myself, if I wasn't working in LO AM (Equities) then I wouldn't want to be in finance at all. IB / PE are brutal hours, HF is a step below brutal at SMs (and brutal at MMs) with high rates of turnover, VC is near impossible to get to at the senior levels unless you're a former operator (forget the IB associate going in and becoming a partner at Benchmark, this doesn't really happen anymore as the industry is now saturated). ER is dying & honestly only worth as a pathway to LO AM (where bottom 80% of shops are screwed moving forward and top 20% will see continued fee pressure). Corp dev is probably most similar in hours / comp to your role but the hours in corp dev are still much worse when deals are hot vs. tech
I think you're looking at this too NT / weighing the money too much. You can grind for a few years but at age 40 you're going to wish you had more free time. I'm almost wondering if LO AM will give me that, when I started at my shop the Analysts were working 50-55hrs. Feels like it's pushed to 55-60hrs these days (hopefully that reverts back post recession). I really do think 50-55hrs is probably the max hours in terms of maximizing comp & contentment outside of work (provided the work itself is also meaningful). All to say, stay in tech dude. If I had any coding talent at all, I'd probably shoot for tech as well. Ended up in a good seat so I can't regret much but if I'm ever out of this seat (i.e. not promoted), I don't have much idea what I'd want to do / be able to do. Tech gives you WAY more options (lifestyle, geography, etc) where supply of jobs is so large vs. finance where demand outstrips supply by a huge margin (there were 800 kids applying for my seat alone some years back when I interviewed)
Could you comment on why you think ER is dying? I'm an undergrad and want to go into ER. Thanks.
It's not... I made solid money my first year $120k+ and worked under 60 hours a week. There's a bunch of BS in the job but I still do BS on the buyside lol. At a LO and hours/pay are great (7:30-5:30). But I agree with Sequoia... if I wasn't LO i'd definitely be in tech somewhere
MBA not rly useful for public investing roles; Point72 Experienced Academy is probs best bet. Otherwise IB -> HF/PE via MBA is gonna be the best bet. Will be a bit rough recruiting as an assoc into buyside.
Would recommend VC here.
I work as a SWE and people that recommend this are INSANE. I am actually only here to gather stuff to add to my CV for an MBA so that I can make the switch, kinda like leveraging what I have.
Tech, even at FAANG, is VERY underpaid compared to the amount of knowledge and self-study required. It's like putting all these BB/PE/VC/HF people to go through the CFA, except that it's harder(though shorter) to get a chance at making what 200k a year(With stock) starting salary and maybe reaching 500-600k after 8-10 years while keeping in mind that like 1% of FAANG people make it to SWE3 level equivalent. And you can never know what tech company will be the next big unicorn, in fact, guys that study finance will have a much higher chance at knowing this.
Grinding in Finance/consulting/real estate/trying to have your own business >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> FAANG SWE.
What makes it so hard to get a job at FAANG? About what number of leetcode problems would it take to be fully prepared?
FAANG is still very leetcode centric with some sys design. I'd say around 40 hards and 180 mediums that you can reliably solve on your own within a timespan of 1 year is enough.
But many companies these days are moving to reduce leetcode rounds and increase system design and other stuff like super heavy implementation or debugging or general trivia or operating systems/networking/databases/distributed systems knowledge or any combination of the above. That is what top unicorns expect these days across all levels and I do think FAANG will eventually catch on too. The amount of stuff you have to know and retain every single time you interview is insane and I don't think its something people in finance can really fathom.
OP's cfa reference is very spot on except its even more than CFA. A lot of it is a matter of luck and maybe you can get through with jsut CFA level I knowledge but if you want to be truly prepared you basically need whatever is the equivalent is CFA level III + CPA and I don't think that is enough eitehr.
I was personally jobless when I applied, therefore, I was able to fully focus on doing algorithmic problems, system design etc..
As for the number of problems, it's all about patterns. I did NEETCODE 150 like 3 times and I was able to solve any problem in there in the most optimal way within 5 minutes when I applied.
It was more than enough for entry level positions.
Agree with a lot of things except a lot more than 1% of faang make it to swe3 (so L5/E5 equivalent). Its pretty easy and honestly if you can't make L5/E5 equivalent within 5 years its a pretty bad look. If you really wanted and are competent enough then staff (L6/E6) is very achievable too. Senior staff (7) is where it starts to stretch and this is where most ambitious people start to flatline. Principal (8) where I'd say you are in the top 1% but that is also the level you have to reach to break in 1mil mark. I think 600k tc is very achievable for anyone in tech with enough time and hard work. But anything more than that requires a good degree of luck + skill.
7 is senior? I'd wager that in-betweeen 5 and 6 is senior at most FAANG companies, this is what levels.fyi also says. Most peoplep won't make it to L6 amazon, in fact, it takes about 2-3 years on average to get to SDE2 and at least the same to get to SDE3 and make around ~300k. Anything beyond this is not guaranteed and most people do not make it.
Amazon: L6 344k
Microsoft 63 235k
FB: E5 to at the very most E6 385k
Apple: ICT4, aka the 3rd level. 317k
Come on, these are rookie numbers in finance. Every day I see people working in finance in WSO, at unknown companies and with a few years of experience pulling more.
I've seen so few principal SDE's and within 2 years very little changed and the pay is much lower. At Amazon is ~600k for principal(after the current tech stock drop, this may very well have dropped below 450k a year even...), it's VERY hard to break 1 mil at a FAANG, a thousand times easier in finance/ real estate/ consulting / big 4, provided that you have the very same brain that made you become a Principal SDE at a FAANG.
Already being in FAANG puts you well within the top 1% of devs, let alone making it so far.
Honestly man, I hate to be that guy, but if maximizing income is the only reason for the switch, don't come.
The largest chunk of people who (a) burn out, (b) bounce and/or (c) are absolutely miserable in banking every day are the ones who come in and stay for the wrong reasons - comp, prestige whatever the fuck.
As with every other career path, there has to be genuine interest unless you're just willing to slog out a year or two in absolute misery and move on.
To answer your question on the MBA, in my mind, yes. There isn't enough relevant experience as a PM to make the jump to associate, def more junior.
Thanks, this seems to be a theme from the replies here. Do you have any recs on how I can check my interest for the field? I enjoyed going thru the valuation exercise and learning more about economics and companies while prepping for Point72 Academy. Is that representative of the work people do in the long run?
When you say more junior, does that mean becoming an analyst is feasible by applying/networking without an MBA?
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