The American way of living vs europe
I came to the US for school however I was born and raised in Italy and France. I had a vague idea of the idea of the hustle and bustle culture in the US, not like you don't find it in London, Paris, maybe Milan. But the value system here is so distinctly different than that we have back home. I appreciate how much I learn working these hours but it is still surprising to me that people are bragging about 80 hour work weeks 10+ years in to their careers. Buying their kids flashy cars or telling us about their vacation including how much it cost, how big their bonus was etc. I think it is interesting to see but even the generational families we know back home show their values thru knowing multiple languages, reading, dressing tastefully often without brand logos and so on. I think another key difference I notice is in Western Europe at least it seems like having the ability to take weeks off and weekends to really dine with friends and family is seen as a sign of success where as in the US always working is considered more prestigious. Curious to see what you all prefer?
It's personal preference. US is hands down better to generate wealth as an individual. However I prefer living in EU. I take like 3 holidays a year, alongside numerous long weekend city trips. It's basically impossible to get burnt out. I also think that if you've made it in EU, the lifestyle is better. Chalet in Swiss alps? Villa in Tuscany? Weekend trip to Portugal? I think that's better than chalet in Colorado, villa in Miami, weekend trip to Vegas. But to each their own. EU you can still make good money, especially in finance, and you actually get to enjoy life.
People absolutely do brag about spending money here! Especially in finance circles.
The US is full of a bunch of loser wagecucks. Most sane people would prefer the European lifestyle in my opinion.
That being said in terms of economic mobility the US wins hands down. The rags to riches stories here are more plentiful than anywhere else in the world.
I agree especially now that you need to make so much money in the US to really have a good life. I just got EU citizenship, I was born in the US but I am considering trying to make the move to EU for a couple years, its just tough to be that far from my family. But the EU life is just so much more enjoyable and honeslty you do not even need that much money to be happy in EU which is why I think people in the EU do not care as much about money.
It's not "better'. It is so much superior that you would have to be dropped on the head to think the American version was in any way equal, and I'm not originally from either region, so this is without bias.
I will NEVER understand people with generational leisure wealth who base their personal lives in the US or Canada (I don't mean professional lives) unless they're super american or have a dying family member, and even, only for the latter.
Quality of Life doesn't compare at the elite level. America is a striver hustler nation, good for that, and once you have what that life arc gives you, not good for much else.
One way of living creates persistent economic and societal outperformance over time; ie. a durable competitive advantage. The other way of living results in economic stagnation and ensures your grandchildren a standard of living equivalent to that of future LATAM/Asia. Gee, which would I choose?
You are coming off as cynical but you make a great point.
The window for people to sell their labor for a price that allows investment is closing, and you'd be right to setup your lineage with passive income. Imagine the price of your labor in 15 years once we have all this AI; this trend was already moving forward due to the concolidation of assets into the wealthy's hands. Look at real estate.....
How do you measure societal outperformance?
For me, economic and societal outperformance are slightly inversely correlated unless your measures of societal outperformance are also economic.
Any capitalist economy with a strong competitive advantage will result in widening wealth inequality unchecked. This, broadly, is bad for society. The generally accepted happiest/"best living" societies are less unequal and more human-oriented than the US .
I never have to really talk to our Europe team within our organization but sometimes my leadership reaches out to them and more often than not this summer, one of them was always away for ~1-2 weeks for summer holiday. On the other hand, very few of my coworkers took beyond a week off this summer (I didn't take any time off due to saving PTO days for a few long trips planned later this year).
One of my seniors' parents had a medical emergency overseas and he had to take time off for that. It was last minute and I still remember doing a call with him while he was in the plane before they backed out of the gate. He sounded so grateful that our firm gave him time off in this medical emergency... I thought the way he worded it was weird. I woudl imagine most companies would give time off for this. I'm still new here but that shocked me and made me realize how WLB unfriendly client type of work is (I'm new to consulting and client work in general) in the US vs. foreign teams I've familiar with in other parts of the world (Europe - UK, Germany etc).
I totally get that—success definitely feels different here. I personally value a balance and quality time with family and friends over the nonstop hustle.
As someone who has lived in the US for a long time and then moved to the UK, it's crazy how chill the UK university courses are as well. Lots of time allocated for "independent studying", but everyone I know just ends up taking a quick trip on Ryanair to the cheapest city in Europe.
The US academic model is geared more towards continuous learning and assessment, with course weightings less skewed towards a final exam. European universities generally prefer a much higher weighting to a final exam, hence lower grade boundaries necessary for top grades.
A US 4.0 GPA is roughly 90+% in all courses whereas in the UK a First Class (top grade) is 70%+ plus. The different assessment style breeds different demands and EU students have to engage in more independent study.
Sorry, but the grading point does not really work in that comparison.
Its about the curve applied.
I'll be honest - im not completely familiar with the specifics of the UK Grading.
But you have to differentiate between Points needed for a top score and average points scores in exams.
If a test is easier, you get more points.
I guess thats obvious.
But if the test is harder and the max score reached by the best performing student is 70 of 100, then 70% is your -
100.
Outside the UK, the grading is different by country. Same with the internship culture (in Germany for example far harder than in the US)
Landing on the moon vs. not having air conditioning. I’m picking red white & blue all day baby.
Then again look at the state of American airports, trains, cities, reporting systems against top Asian countries, Germany, etc.
Meh, that's because Asian infrastructure is newer. In 30 years, Asian airports, cities, etc. will be as crappy as America's.
There’s a reason why they’re called Europoors
why do so many haters come from philly
It’s in our blood coz the Man’s always been against us
As an American with many family members throughout Europe (France, Russia, Armenia, etc.), I have noticed in my time with them and in Europe more broadly, that, what makes America and Americans unique is the obsession with goals and achievement. This is not entirely unique to America as you mentioned, but it seems that abundance is embedded into the society and culture stateside. Not only with regard to work and pay, but simple things like the size of roads, portions, and houses/apartments. The American ethos is centered around freedom, as it has always been. Naturally, this leads to many Americans believing that there is a sort of obligation to take everything to the limit and leave no stone unturned in the pursuit of success, and not doing so would mean that you’re taking your freedom for granted. It’s not as common today, but for the longest time, one of the most common rebuttals you would hear in America in response the criticism of one’s actions was “it’s a free country”. I cannot speak to the European equivalent (which I’m sure varies widely across the continent), but this focus on freedom is what separates America, and when you see people bragging about how much they work or get paid, it’s because they are taking full advantage of their unique freedom.
How easy is it to move from US to Europe after doing two years as an analyst in IB? Assuming you have EU citizenship, speak multiple Western European languages with native fluency, etc.
Know several people who have, not super tough. American work experience and degrees are valued. But in cities that pays as much as a US city (really only Switzerland) the opps are limited literally because there are only so many seats opposed to NYC where there are thousands
Is it doable without a Master's? I.e. just a bachelor's from a well-known US university and two years in American IB?
american white people are trash.
Are the hours in banking/PE better than in the US? I assume you take some pay cut (also taxes) but can you advantage take the normal EU vacation and other wlb policies?
I lived in Sweden for a summer and everyone seemed to have way better wlb/prioritize their jobs less. Would be lit to get that with the finance comp lol.
Banking definitely is less intense in London compared to the US. I have worked on both sides of the ponds. The bank I work at is a certified sweatshop FWIW.
Europeans will claim that they are just as if not more sweaty. That is simply not true and the ppl that say that never worked in the US.
London might not be, but the German offices definitely are. For lower pay too.
I'm German and I always hear that Stockholm is definitely more chill regarding work hours.
In London they work a lot, but for many teams (except the sweaty ones ofc) it's still reasonable, i.e. until midnight.
Here in Frankfurt I feel like it's overall more sweaty, 2-3am is quite standard, with sweaty teams often even working beyond that (I.e. 4/5am).
I send my kids to school without being afraid of the school getting shot up by someone who bought an assault rifle at WalMart. Keep your extra money. I have my peace of mind with less money and more WLB and holiday time. Just came back from 3 weeks at my holiday home in the south of France. You couldn’t pay me enough to move to the US. 🇪🇺🇫🇷🇩🇪🇮🇹
So true, and honestly thank god the age of consent in most Europoor countries is 14
edit: why did WSO edit this comment? This is not what I originally wrote.
psychopath pedo lol say some shit like that when you're not on an anon profile.
Maybe Europe 20 years ago. Now, just rent a car or buy a knife, or bow and arrow, and Europe is now America. Open western borders has consequence both in America and Europe.
Incorrect. The most dangerous places in Europe would be considered safe for us standards
Totally get what you’re saying. In the US, “busy = successful” seems baked into the culture, while in Europe success is more about lifestyle balance and refinement. Personally, I think there’s a sweet spot—working hard when needed but also being able to enjoy life, family, and downtime without guilt.
I fully agree, you should live both if possible and make an educated decision about which one suits your lifestyle and ambition better
Great point chatgpt
Surprised not to see the american hardos yapping about how anyone shouldn't have any opinion about murica unless they are born here and you should immediately get tf out of this country.
Clearly none of you have met Andrea Orcel
Or worked in a Milan, Paris or Frankfurt office of an investment bank which is truly brutal
I guess being Tom Montag's right hand will do that to a person...
orcel was a legend long before rando Montag came into the picture. He also was paid a lot more than Montag… of course Montag got the last laugh in that fight
How is Madrid?
Heard Milan is as brutal as US but wanted to get more info on Spain
Yes most Spanish senior bankers are brutal
Despite the general perception about work ethic, all the southern European offices are brutal…
Milan/Madrid offices make US Moelis look like a 9-5
Europe has won zero Super bowls or college football championships so USA auto better
I think both sides really come down to what someone values more. In the US, the opportunities for career growth and wealth building are definitely stronger, but the trade-off is often long hours and fewer breaks. In Europe, you might not see the same upside in terms of earnings, but the lifestyle feels more balanced—you actually get to enjoy the rewards of your work with more time off, better work-life balance, and easy access to travel between countries. For someone who wants to maximize income, the US might be the obvious choice, but for someone who values quality of life and long-term balance, Europe can be hard to beat.
Parents from a developing country, were diplomats, was lucky enough to live in both.
America for wealth generation, and general networking. If you run a manufacturing business however (a global one not american) I'd see this point conceded to China as well.
Absolutely everything living wise, Europe. Not even a question. Great vacations, great conversations, great friends, great food, great times. Life is far more whole, and fulfilling, and I enjoy interacting with educated europeans to a higher degree. The Manhattan Iron jungle is just a phase, and one I won't miss once I leave it.
I really do hope the US keeps some level of a growing economy in the future. It's all it has going for it. Loose that to China and it will resemble one of the shittiest countries ever conceived. A neo-post USSR collapse de-industrialized shitftless and aimless Russia but worse.
I'll care about Europoor's opinions when they can afford central AC and stop importing thousands of r*pists from the 3rd world. Till then they can enjoy irrelevance in human innovation, watch their culture bleed out like a tourist shivved in Southwark by a future doctor/lawyer/engineer, and wallow in their mediocrity while sipping tea during their siestas gabbing about how awful it is to actually work.
Yeah, it's been interesting to observe how different Western European values American and values are when I go to Europe or meet Europeans here, considering that American culture is in large part an offshoot of Western Europe's.
Even in the most work-oriented European countries like Germany, there is a very clear idea in most people's minds that work should not encroach on personal life, and most people don't tend think of their job as anything but a job. They spend a certain amount of time working for money, then they go home and do the stuff they like to do. There's no "passionate" or "dream job" talk. They often just get the highest paying job that they're suited for and work as much as they have to. They retire as soon as they're able (as long as they want to), and live out their remaining years without working for money.
In my experience, many Europeans look at the way Americans approach work as completely absurd, and I can't say I blame them. Why work more without getting paid more for it? Why work for money at all if you have enough money to support yourself and do what you like to do? If Americans love work so much like they say they do, why do they retire, or take weekends? European culture in many places allows people to have this more casual attitude towards work. They don't treat lack of ambition when it comes to a career as some kind of personal failure, so just working a job (or choosing not to when possible) is perfectly acceptable for most people.
It does seem, though, that this seems to breed a culture that lacks initiative. Things are fine, why change anything? Sometimes this is a good attitude to have, more is not always better, but especially in southern Europe it's clear that this is a source of some problems, like ineffective governments and rotting infrastructure. When things really need to get done and quickly, it seems like they have a much harder time getting it together.
This is a solved question. If you want to build wealth you’re in the us. If you want to spend wealth then in Europe. If you’re senior / mobile enough to do both then more power to you
Past a certain net worth money doesn't as matter so the whole "build wealth = US" is a bad argument because it won't do anything to you. Better have this balanced life where you take 2 holidays per year + go back to office recharged and repeat it for 20-30 years to then retire maybe 5 years later than your US counterparts while also having accumulated memorable experiences in a balanced way.
NYC finance culture doesn't really define the United States--80 hour work weeks are highly unusual outside of that industry. Probably more definining features of America are America's large suburban houses, extensive use of air conditioning, and big cars driven on generally well maintained and extensive roads. Middle class Americans routinely have 2,500+ square foot homes and giant, luxury vehicles. This is a manifestation of the United States being a much, much wealthier nation than every Euopean country, as measured by Actual Individual Consumption per capita (one of the best statistics as GDP per capita is distorted in nation's like Ireland, Switzerland, and Norway, for various reasons). In this statistic, the USA is by far the #1 nation on Earth. We may work more, but on average we have much cushier lives.
How is consumption a better metric than earnings? Think about that for a second. You're overweight lifted trucks and la bubus and underweight people who actually are good with money.
GDP is the best measure of a nation's productive output, but it can be misleading, particularly for smaller countries that have material distortions from, for example, enormous oil reserves (e.g., Norway), multinational accounting structures (e.g., Ireland), disproportionately high number of cross border workers (e.g., Luxembourg), or an enormous financial sector serving foreigners (e.g., Switzerland). These kinds of things can distort rankings and don't necessarily predict living standards. Switzerland, for example, has strong GDP and GNP, but its *average citizen* has a materially lower living standard (objectively, not subjectively) than the average American. Europe is replete with these small countries with bizarre distorted productive outputs. Luxembourg, for example, is simply not a more productive nation than the U.S., despite what its GDP figure shows. Also, GDP can go up while wages stagnate, so consumption figures can find this distortion that production statistics can't.
And, the OP is talking about living in America vs. living in Europe, so what you're really trying to get to the heart of is living standards across countries, objectively (not some subjective "I prefer European culture" statement). AIC gets to the heart of this because it looks at household consumption, regardless of who pays for it--this adjusts for the fact that healthcare, for example, is paid for by the state in much of Europe, something that would be missed using simply disposable income figures alone. In that same vein, consumption includes state welfare, public transit/transportation, education, childcare, etc., all things commonly paid for by the state in Europe (and often by the state in the U.S., too). What these figures show is that the U.S. is by far the #1 consumer of products/services in the world, and it's not really even close. We simply have much, much more national wealth and objectively higher living standards than Europe, let alone the rest of the world. So one can make all the subjective arguments in the world about vacation time, architecture, etc., but objectively, the U.S. has a much higher standard of living.
You know, having parents that were diplomats from a 3rd developing country (meaning I actually know what a disaster of a nation looks like) a lot of european criticism comes from a feeling, that gets translated to what they believe is a rational argument, but isn't the crux of their frustration.
My opinion (take it or leave it) is that the lack of community/society present in a lot (not all though) of America is really what bothers most people, regardless of nation of origin, religion, etc....It's easy to live an isolated, automized, un connected, work-workout-netflix/wine/thc gummy evening at home life loop. You have to go out of your way to have a social life here, which is the case anywhere frankly, but in most other places, in your homeland if you came from somewhere else, that's already a given. You already have those networks assuming your above the 50% median in western europe (and therfore don't suffer from lack of resources) or 90% in up and coming developing nations.
Take a look at how Latinos who own General Contracting firms, or how Gujrati Indians who own half the hotels live. Intimately tied in with their extended family, and friend circle. Now that lifestyle. Asset owner (15m+) with a big yard, a big pool, a lot of money, and consequently the ability to travel and live well.....That isn't being beaten anywhere else on earth outside of you being hyper elite already.
Yeah, that critiques not wrong, but it's a manifestation of the fact that Americans necessarily don't have 30 generations of ties to a region and we aren't all the same race or religion. You can't have a multi-racial, pluralistic society with lots of imigrants and movement, both geographically and economically, without having looser social ties.
Diversity dilutes culture. It is true. The only thing America has left is wealth (or achievement) as a measuring stick.
Not the worst thing ever - it does create many good outcomes (and a few bad ones).
i mean the whole individualism, american dream, free markets thing was the whole point. china exists today as the stark antithesis; it being a growing power with proper infrastructure and nominally greater standard of living (at least what westerners get exposed to via social media) whilst still maintaining conservative traditionalism, which is what everyone desires, is as you pointed to the greatest unspoken consternation among those held in the west, and we will likely see this wedge grow deeper into the future as china continues to surpass the west
Very intriguing perspective I agree that success in the US is frequently determined by work and money, whereas in Europe it feels more about balance and lifestyle.
In the US, work is often tied directly to identity, so long hours and material signs of success get celebrated. It’s definitely not for everyone, but it explains why many brag about 80+ hour weeks.
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