What’s going on with my intern class?
I've been around for 3 intern classes and this one especially has been extremely bad. We are getting ready to hand out return offers and there's only a handful of kids that I'd see being successful as FT analysts. Mind you, I'm not delegating hard tasks or complaining about the quality of the work product; the expectations on that front are fairly low. It's more so the lack of responsiveness, care and drive. Not sure if it's entitlement or a false sense of confidence thinking they already made it. We've been busy with a few high-profile sellsides in the middle of a turbulent market and some of the interns just disappear over the weekend. I try to minimize weekend work for them as much as possible by handling things myself, and the couple of times that I've been swamped working until 4am on weekends they are nowhere to be found. I always let them know in advance that we'll have a busy weekend and it's almost as if they don't understand there's real urgency behind the deliverables. The entire junior team has communicated the same concerns to the staffer, but what do you even do at this point? Again, many of this kids are very sharp, went to the same school as me and did well, so it's certainly not a lack of talent.
I remember my mentality when I was an intern. It was a 2.5 month commitment that, if taken seriously, could potentially shape my future. I put my head down and worked like there was no tomorrow, then went back to college and spent my senior year partying and enjoying life. Kids these days can’t be this stupid, right? As an intern you are below the food chain, not even at the bottom. I can’t fathom how prospects don’t take this opportunity seriously. Truthfully, this job is not for everyone, but many of these kids spent the last two years of their lives obsessing over and preparing for this opportunity, just to blow it this close to the finish line. Of course, there’s always that intern that figures out halfway through the internship that banking is not for him or her, but there’s no way an entire class came to this conclusion.
Social media - and instant gratification. Over exaggerating here but Why would an intern work hard when they get their validation from their LinkedIn announcement post that got 500 reactions?
I’m as anti toxic bs, f banking, and pro creating boundaries as they come in IB. But this sounds ridiculous to me. They’re interns, I can’t imagine them logging off before the people they’re working with. That’s logical and expected even as a full-time when jamming on a live deal, how do they expect to get away with less?
My short answer is they don’t get return offers, but I guess only if you’re at a BB or EB that can fill the slots, otherwise that backfires. But it’s not going to get better, so what good is raw intelligence?
I’m sure we’d have no trouble filling in the empty spots, but man this is absolutely ridiculous. Over the past week I stopped giving them work or offering well thought out feedback. I do good enough work to the point where I can push back when I feel requests are unnecessary or not as urgent as my VP makes them seem, but this summer has been brutal. Double the workload because of some entitled kids that don’t have any dog in them. I’ve come to the conclusion that since my group is pretty fratty, they don’t understand that when shit needs to get done we all gotta buckle up and grind in the trenches together. I’m conflicted because I’d hate to get in the way of their careers, but at the same time, there’s no way in hell I want to be staffed with 90% of the interns in this class
Your last line says it all — don’t screw over future you or whoever else in your group at that point. And to be honest, if they don’t even want to work a weekend during their internship, then you’re probably doing them a favor by keeping them out.
Lmao we've observed that with our current interns too. What the fuck is wrong with them?
Spoke with a couple headhunters recently (I'm A2A). A much larger percentage of the analyst class would prefer to interview with CPPIB / asset managers than APO because of wlb. I think the post covid generation is just different in that they are not nearly as prestige / success driven. As an associate this some times makes my life harder because I do a lot more analyst work since I can't properly motivate juniors. On the balance though I think this trend is great for all juniors (VP and below) because they are forcing seniors to reconcile with many legacy work culture issues and ultimately making IB much more tolerable for all everyone - thus I don't mind picking up some slacks.
I think that’s good perspective to have. Agree with you that it’s probably a positive trend, I guess the problem for some of us is that we won’t be around to reap the benefits haha.
To be honest I think this type of sea change will spill over to PE (at least the well know mega shops most under public scrutiny) soon enough. So assuming you stay on the IB-PE track you too can reap the benefits hopefully.
This ^ also with many of their peers working in opportunities that have far better WLB, people are recognizing that it isn't normal to pull all-nighters for senior bankers who aren't great at their job and overcompensate by having juniors prepare double the necessary materials needed for a client. I understand the necessity of being prepared for clients but many senior bankers pull far too much and are always overpitching for deals that it's clear we'd never win.
What is APO?
Apollo
I think banking should take in a lot less juniors. Very high level, but I feel it would help the idea that they aren't just some cog in the machine, more money to pay due to less heads, and it would require them to work hard; emphasis on work hard and pay. Banking used to be The career field to get paid, however now you see all these tech jobs that pay the same working 1/3rd the hours. Of course, people will be dissatisfied and push back seeing their friends. There needs to be something additional to retain talent.
You get paid >$200k for putting logos on a slide, get real
We also align them too!! Crazy how supply demand works.
This was the situation in early 2021 and the banks were in a seriously bad spot. Banks were understaffed because of slow hiring during covid + people leaving, meaning juniors got PAID but they also worked like dogs - you can only make so much money and be satisfied with important deal work before the hours are completely not worth it. My group had directors trying to cover analyst work because there was so much of it.
IMO the amount of interns / Gen Zs in general not interested in the lack of WLB is a long term positive. Banking will eventually be forced to change the WLB aspect to keep on top of the pyramid in recruiting. This happened a few years ago and that's where protected Saturdays were introduced, which might not be perfect every time but are a net positive for juniors
Partially my bank underpaying us, but part of the problem was even getting paid record-high bonuses wasn’t nearly proportional to the extra effort (especially when you consider the 18th or 19th marginal hours are the toughest). 10-15k extra at the end of the year doesn’t make up for picking up the slack for the two other analysts and one associate that quit on your deals. And dealing with the new micromanager from XYZ Shit Bank whose comments are to align your footnotes and change the font size, because lateral talent was so bleak. Idk what kind of bonus would’ve made it worth it — everything does still have a price — but I know my cost to go through that experience again is far beyond what any bank will ever be willing to pay.
If your group is really working until 4am on a weekend no less, in a down market, your group is so horribly mismanaged that the intern class should be the least of your worries.
If I was an intern in that class, you can bet id prioritize getting an offer in a group that wasn’t a complete shit-show over pleasing the demands of burnt out analysts who are so jaded that they don’t realize how terrible their group is, even by banking standards.
That said, if you took Friday night off, started the day at noon and then are complaining you have to work late on Saturday, that’s really on you and I’m not sure why you’re surprised an intern would rather manage their schedule so that they’re not up at 4.
Or his group still sources live deals and they had a tight turnaround stfu
Couple billion in sellsides as strategics are still buying in my space. How I manage my time is irrelevant from an intern's point of view, same way you have to stay up if your MD decides to turn comments at 11pm (especially when he gives you a heads up that comments are coming in late). I don't really see your point here. Shielding interns from late nights, which I have done multiple times is not helping them either. That's the job. As I mentioned in one of my previous comments, this is a widespread issue with the entire intern class. If they decide they can't handle the hours, good riddance. I'm not defending the culture of my group whatsoever, I'm simply saying it is what it is. Either get with it or get out. Not sure my MDs are going to delay deal execution in a down market because the junior team is getting their weekends blown. That's both unrealistic and naive.
"How I manage my time is irrelevant from an intern's point of view, same way you have to stay up if your MD decides to turn comments at 11pm (especially when he gives you a heads up that comments are coming in late)."
This gets to the heart of the problem directly. Put yourself in the shoes of a smart, talented individual who could work predictable hours-knowing with certainty they will end work at 8pm or 10pm each day- with the trade off that they make slightly less money. I think a lot of them are weighing the trade-offs and choosing the alternative. The explosion of tech has lowered the barriers of entry to high paying career fields. You could work in Consulting/Tech/CorpDev/CorpStrat/BizOps and have a better WLB and, generally, a better work culture.
A lot of people are starting to see that they could earn 300-500k/yr in a variety of roles outside of high finance because of these other options that exist. Thus, banking moves down the pecking order in terms of recruitment and the highest quality candidates are going straight to the buy-side (if still finance inclined) or going to other roles (consulting/tech/corpdev) that can still place into PE/VC without having their time disrespected in the way that banking does.
This is not to say that the hours won't also get crazy at these other places but, as a percentage of total hours worked, it is far more predictable than IB and at the end of the day you are still making a large sum of money with a career trajectory to earn even more.
I think banks should stop being beta about managing people out…if people don’t meet the standard-whatever you think that is-then fire them. The banks don’t take this authoritarian approach, why? Is it because it’s hard to be on your “A game” 20 hours a day, 6 (or more) days a week? Is it because the job description doesn’t explicitly say that “you must be willing to stay awake and logged in for 80-100 hours a week”? Why does the job description not say it? Because it is absolutely unreasonable and widely untenable for $110k per year and a discretionary bonus-exits aside since they are not guaranteed either.
And I’m totally okay with that. I personally don’t care what others do until it starts affecting me. It all comes down to this. You wanted the job, now do it. It’s as simple as that. At the end of the day, that’s what a summer internship it’s supposed to test. (a) can this person do the the work? and (b) if so, does this person like the job? If the answer to either question is no, then there’s no reason to discuss. The problem is that people can’t or don’t want to put in the work and expect to be invited back. Banking is a zero excuses, zero bs job. College kids convince themselves for years that this is what they want. Cool, you are up on the big stage now all you gotta do is perform
We have a summer associate that logs on at like 11am consistently and has blown through deadlines repeatedly. And lies about doing work for other team members to avoid it. Genuinely dislike him.
Heard a lot of stuff in the news lately about “war for talent” and “labor now has more wage power than capital,” and “wages will inevitably rise.”
I think this might be banking’s version. Talented kids opting for less demanding jobs with similar pay. At the end of the day the number of 30 hour tech seats paying 200k is not unlimited. Those seats will get crowded, stock comp is drying up, and some level of market efficiency will either require those seats to work harder or make them way harder to get. Imagine those seats have almost zero turnover.
OP said the talent is similar to what it was when he recruited which is interesting. Means it is the same talent level and it’s not like state school big 4 kids are overwhelming the analyst ranks. Has this been everyone’s experience? That the talent pool is the same kids just less motivated? Or are we seeing the most talented labor in our space leave at an accelerated pace (faster than normal) and now banks have to hire candidates not as relatively qualified. I’ve personally been surprised as at the amount of legit not smart people coming in at the post mba level. This might be no surprise to analysts lol, but I am shocked at how unimpressive some of these candidates are.
How are they unimpressive? Or do you just mean lazy and zero work ethic?
oh those talented people are still there, just not in banking :p
BioTech and general software tech has seduced them. These kids are smart and motivated but found an alternative to the pyramid scheme of IB. Don't get me wrong, I like IB as a topic and skillset--it's interesting work--but their outdated ways has hurt them. Kids now, want companies that are highly receptive and value everyone's opinions/skills. Not to mention everyone knows of IB's hours with social media showing "day in the life" of IB hours and culture, there are no surprises, so kids are finding alternatives to IB before they even get interested/try to recruit.
Do you mind sharing examples?
I think COVID fucked over everyone’s work ethic. The last two years of college were a literal joke in comparison to years before.
My thoughts exactly. I started FT right before COVID and got absolutely crushed, just like everybody else. Online classes don’t really teach you the discipline that’s required or expected once you enter the workforce.
Pre-COVID normality kept people a lot more honest in general. Having to be in the office everyday where you have all your superiors looking over shoulder with decades+ of unbroken habits and expectations meant everyone was a lot more disciplined. COVID and wfh really destroyed this for the vast majority of people except for the superhuman type As who are intrinsically motivated to grind just as hard regardless of the circumstances. The reality is most people are not built like this and need the external motivators. Your MD isn’t checking to see what time in the morning your Teams indicator turns green. But when everyone is expected to be in office everyday, you know they can glance across the bullpen and see who’s walking in late, not at their desk, etc. Similarly, if working from home it’s incredibly easy to tell people you’re “tied up” and harder to gauge capacity and how much work people are actually doing. With Facetime gone, since a lot of people end up going home after 7pm to work from home, it’s also much easier for productivity to trail off earlier in the night.
I did 3+ years of IB pre-Covid in a tough group with consistent 4am days. I was able to handle this, but I think it was due in large part to the sacred routines/expectations and greater external motivators. I can’t deny that I’d probably struggle a lot to do the same in a post-Covid hybrid environment. It also doesn’t help that everyone knows at least someone who’s making great money in tech sales or something, working 45 hours a week fully wfh where they can travel all the time. Makes it much easier to question wtf you’re doing with your life.
Has something to do with buyside firms opening up their analyst/intern pipelines... more and more PE firms starting to take interns / build out an analyst class like BX so kids with the most work ethic / ambition are going to these places rather than banks
That's bullshit, the number of MFPE and top GE analyst spots must be at best around 20 across the country, way too small to have any impact on banking.
BX alone hires 20+ interns a year now, Ares + KKR + Bain Cap + Oaktree hire interns too, PIMCO also just started to hire analysts directly from undergrad into PM roles, just a few names that come to mind. This + banks growing their intern classes + overemphasis on diversity candidates in superdays = dilution in talent
The value proposition for IB just isn’t worth it any more when you can get similar pay working at Panda Express.
Op, sorry to break it to you, but normal adjusted people don't think this is acceptable. There isn't anything WRONG with them per say, in fact, an outside observer would say there is something wrong with YOU.
These interns were born after 9/11, were little kids during the financial crisis, and became of age during COVID (lol). They have generally been skeptical about everything told to them (for good reason). There was no "golden age" for them growing up. To sum it up, they are not true believers.
Working at 4am on a weekend is not rational and they don't see the payoff. Worst case scenario for them is they don't get an offer to join a bank that makes them work at 4am on the weekend (big deal!)
Your bank probably is having a hard time recruiting talent, so they will be forced to give them offers. These up and coming post covid gen zers are not cucks and they will not sacrifice themselves for some boomer bank board of directors.
I personally respect them for ghosting you all weekend(no offense).
There must be zero deal flow in whatever group you are in. While not normal, late nights happen every now and then. This is a CLIENT facing business and we are at their disposal. Creating materials to aid in the process is in the job description. This is the expectation. Emergencies happen and you have to deal with them when they come along, regardless of whether that happens at 4am Saturday or 1pm. First things first, if they had done their job and had been available early Saturday maybe it wouldn't have turned into a 4am endeavor.
EDIT: They won’t be getting offers. The main quality to look for in an AN&A is reliability, and they have shown none. There’s no excuse for an intern ghosting analysts or logging off when there’s still ton of work left, that is if they want to come back. If not, fine. But this is IB at a top EB, there’s no lack of people who would do anything to be in their shoes. Don’t get me wrong, this is only a job after all. One that I do for the pay and the pay only, but I want to work with people who want to be here and show it by working hard when needed.
perhaps you're at a tier 3 bank and the interns know it and don't want to work there?
or you're at a tier 3 bank which recruits tier 3 interns who have no interest in the job?
No need to be condescending. I'm not OP and I have observed similar shifts in my group (and firm at large). FWIW I'm am with a top group in a top BB and all our analysts who exited exited to New Mountain+ shops in the past 5 years.
Tier 3 banks closing billion dollar deals? If you want to get technical, I’m at a top 3 shop since dummy rankings change everyday. I’m fairly convinced that brand name appeal has nothing to do with with the root problem
Where are you? I’m gonna take a wild guess and say Macquarie. Although infra is fairly decent, please let me know how your bank’s reputation helps attract better talent?
I was trying to provoke some introspection as the OP could have been talking about DB for all I know.
Whatever OP is complaining about I attribute: i) to early buy-side/sell-side recruting taking the good candidiates who know what they want and ii) students realising earlier on that IB is just another rat race job
I went from infra mezz fund to infra pe and never did IB
I think everyone in this thread is overestimating how many smart/hardworking people want to do IB. Every college kid has heard the horror stories. Everyone knows how many other opportunities are out there. Thus, a lot of students are taking other jobs instead of IB because the pay is only a slight haircut relative to the significantly better lifestyle. The remaining top prospects who would have traditionally flourished in IB are now able to go to the buy side more easily and thus groups from top to bottom are forced to move downstream and hire worse candidates than they have historically. Banks will have to either start paying way more or be more progressive with their lifestyle demands if they want to convince students with limitless opportunities to join them over other roles.
I remember these same complaints about quality about my analyst / intern class at the height of the dot com boom and again in 2007. Recessions and layoffs tend to fix most problems of quality.
Interesting perspective
Maybe that says something about how talent is shifting away from banking.
Or something about the work culture as a whole.
I think you see the same thing in tech nowadays, people doing the bare minimum.
I must say, being someone who would love to be in that same position as those interns, this is somewhat disheartening, to say the least. I have been trying my best to land one of these positions in IB and have put in the hours to best position myself for them, and hearing that someone who has landed the position that I am striving to acquire is just "taking it easy" is unacceptable IMO. There are motivated and Intelligent individuals like myself who are chomping at the bit and know what is required of them to be an asset to not only the firm they will be recruited at but most importantly their team! This is something that I am seeing in the whole work culture, this new generation (I am at the very beginning of it, late 90s baby) doesn't know the value of having grit nor do they give a damn. I guess thats what happens when an already lazier generation goes through a "pandemic" that forced them to stay home and collect money...
I'm telling youuuuu, it's social media. I truly think that's the root of it. Too much to type, but kids see all the possibilities out there + what they're missing out on by working in corporate. Although relatively recent, gen Z has a huge anti-corporate sentiment and expressed more creativity... a practice that wouldn't go over too well in IB (or any Finance/Acct. role). Could just be me, but I feel like consulting is getting more popular? At least what I've seen amongst my class.
And I feel you^^, slacking away at spots some people kill for is nearly insulting. It's just a few months??? Like if you clearly see IB isn't for you, good. Now you know. But put in all of your remaining energy and finish strong knowing you got what you wanted, having learned about an industry and decided if you wanted to pursue a career in it.
Perhaps you are the one getting walked all over and your interns actually have a set of NUTS on them. We are getting into the generations of college grads that will change the work week eventually. They care about having a life outside of work and banking must change to adapt. Fuck your client they can wait a few more hours
They are ballsy for sure. Not sure it will have the expected outcome for them
1
The job market was*** to good. Tech companies and bank alike are slowing down hiring. If interns want to fuck around ahead of ab impending recession, that says a lot about their judgement
Maybe y'all should give non target students the same shot, I guarantee they're equally as talented and willing to stay up even longer.
Moelis figured this one out just go thru LinkedIn way more non targets than other firms
I wish that was up to me. While I can, and often try go get their foot in the door, I’m not the one ultimately making the decisions. I couldn’t give a shit where people went to school as long as they put in the work tbh, but sadly not everyone share those views
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