With all the chaos over the past day (I guess technically over the past decade) regarding police brutality, my Instagram/Facebook feeds are inundated by posts speaking out against the police. A few are helpful with at least some general ideas, but the majority are echo-chamber type posts that are, frankly, just counterproductive given how much they antagonize the other side...
With that said, I've come to WSO where I hope discussions can be more fact-based and level-headed.
I'm curious if any of you have views on what CONCRETE things can actually be done to reform the police system.
I admit I haven't done much research, and frankly don't have much time to do so given I am well...an IB analyst. However, from what I observe, it feels that there are 2 major issues to start. (1) Police departments seem to have a self-selection bias, as the people/activists most likely to change the system probably are not applying to be cops, and (2) Incidents are often investigated by police themselves, which seems wrong right off the bat.
Anyways, I don't have many great ideas yet. I do want to be involved...but I want to be involved in something concrete...not just attend riots or post on social media. If anyone knows of any legit activist groups or ways to contribute, would love any recommendations also.
Lots of bail funds out there if you want to support. I've tuned out mostly. Vote I guess is the best you can do.
Police unions are a huge issue. I totally get that police work is dangerous and difficult, and that cops deserve to be treated well, but the amount of corruption in the unions is absurd. They protect the cops that abuse their authority and ensure that they're let off with no/little punishment and any misconduct is swept under the rug. The vast majority of police are decent, honorable people trying to do the right thing but the unions make them complicit with the bad apples.
I've seen people try to bring this up several times and they're often shouted down by leftists accusing them of "taking advantage of the situation to push an anti-union agenda" which is incredibly reflexive and uninformed.
You hit the nail on the head here. The unions amplify the actions and voice of the bad apples to speak for the whole group. Such a toxic phenomenon. As someone with a public service background myself, I could not agree more with this.
"Here’s the thing. I know being a cop is hard. I know that shit’s dangerous. I know it is, okay? But some jobs can’t have bad apples. Some jobs, everybody gotta be good. Like … pilots. Ya know, American Airlines can’t be like, 'Most of our pilots like to land. We just got a few bad apples that like to crash into mountains. Please bear with us.'"" - Chris Rock, 2018
This is the exact reasoning behind ACAB. The phrase is, after all, a bad apple spoils the bunch. Covering for pieces of shit makes you a piece of shit. Thin blue line my ass.
Voting for the Libertarian Party could be a good bet or a group that opposes the Police Union that supports bad cops.
Republicans claim to support freedom but worship muh thin blue line and still want strict laws regarding drugs like marijuana.
Democrats scream Police Brutality and Racist but want to ban "Assault Weapons" and increase taxes which involves them using the Police to help them enforce these laws. Also gun confiscation leads to Dems using Police to brutally kick down the doors of poorer neighborhoods (usually populated by minorities) to find and seize weapons.
Lol. Liberals call it the "conservative paradox". Conservatives call it the "liberal paradox".
I just call it the "political paradox and why I hate politicians".
Yeah, except it’s nearly all of the American people, not just politicians. No middle ground these days
80% of America will be too stuck in an us vs them mentality without realizing they use the same line of thinking and commit the same poor thinking as the people they put down
short term solution: Trump orders that all of the officers involved in the murder of George Floyd are arrested and charged with murder (1st degree for the guy kneeling, 3rd degree for the others). That would end the current riots.
Longer term solution: 1. Establish a legal precedent that cops can be charged with murder/assault when they use excess force. Essentially, if they use excessive force they are tried as a civilian. No 1/2/3 strikes BS either.
Establish a legal precedent that other cops that are present (and capable) of stopping a cop from using excessive force, but chose not to do so, face assault/manslaughter charges as well. Will create more accountability amongst officers.
Establish a legal precedent that if a suspect is in handcuffs, the definition of “excessive force” is reduced to all force other than guiding the suspect on where to go. A person with their arms locked behind their back is hardly a threat.
Allow peaceful protestors to block roads without police force ordering them to disperse. Send a DA/Mayor to ask them to disperse but also listen and understand why they are protesting. Not allowing peaceful protests is a horrible standard to set, and frankly, un-American.
I do believe looting and rioting is bad. But ya know what’s objectively worse? killing innocent people.
You dont HAVE to apply ordinal numbers to morality. Nobody is asking on a scale of good to bad rate these 10 crimes, and let's only prosecute murder because it is worse than tax evasion.
yeah servants of the law have a higher moral and legal, stricter standard and it should be enforced properly
+1 SB for you. I really like all of these points. Those who are to enforce the law should be held to a much higher standard of accountability. What I was going to mention, which I think your points essentially encompass, was federally mandated reform of police work & tactics. Your points are great as they would force police to be extremely mindful of how they deal with civilians under arrest, how they question and detain people along with what constitutes probable cause. There needs to be a line for what constitutes excessive force, and there needs to be serious consequences for those cross that line.
What I think would be beneficial, which I find a bit hard to describe, but something along the lines of social training and improving EQ. Police need to spend time, off the clock/patrol, in the communities they are policing to better understand the communities they are to serve and have a fundamental understanding of where the people feel they are most at risk. They should re-learn how to properly de-escalate situations and not incite reactions. (as a person of color who's grown up in NYC, you would be surprised at the amount of times both plain clothes NYPD and patrolling NYPD would look to incite a reaction out of you to make probable cause to detain you, search you or your car... can be the hardest feeling to be submissive but you adapt.)
I also think that certain restraining tactics need to be removed and new ones implemented (choke hold, knee on neck, which I don't think was actually part of their training), etc. Im no expert here, but there have to be restraining tactics that don't deliberately put the persons life at risk..
Personally not sure on what extent background checks go for police officers, but there needs to be reform on how they are vetted on all levels. Both academically and mentally. Im really talking about psychologically here and figuring out if their mental state makes them a risk to others. (talking about those officers with short tempers, inferiority complexes, anything that makes them more prone to be excessively violent and target minority demographics). Lastly It also starts at the top. what kind of culture do the police in a certain city follow and who is it that is setting the tone. Those people should be vetted even more.
Unfortunately, the current rhetoric out of Washington is one that doesn't look like it will prioritize this type of reform any time soon. No shade, but the past few tweets from the president and militarization of the police do not seem like a step in the right direction.
You should do a ride along sometime in one of these high crime areas and see what it is actually like. It might open your eyes as to why all of these “very obvious” and “easy” solutions haven’t been successfully implemented.
Having cops be known off-duty in their local community is not a good idea in high crime areas. At best, it's inviting the cop to look the other way more often and engage in corruption. At worst it provides criminals with the ability to threaten cops more directly/
Surely nothing bad will come from allowing protestors to block roads and highways at Will anytime they want.
go work for a think tank instead of PE
or said another way: i love all of these ideas
Wholeheartedly disagree about #3.
I have seen numerous instances and know cops who witnessed suspects in custody do magical shit behind their backs while handcuffed, rush an officer and try to take his/her gun.
I’m gonna call bullshit
These are great. Would also add that weaponry needs to be something earned through training and experience - you get a taser on day 1 instead of a firearm. I’d like to live in a world where none of the police have deadly force but that’s unrealistic so this is a nice start.
Also racial sensitivity training should be mandated, ongoing and difficult (unlike how we all click through our compliance training while scrolling Twitter)
Do you mind PM'ing me. I think these ideas are solid and would appreciate 5 mins to chat about bringing some of these ideas to people who can make a real legislative difference. Thanks.
sent it.
I agree with the first two points, but we should not encourage blocking roads. In addition to delaying the lives of potentially thousands of people, it creates a public safety issue with emergency vehicles unable to pass through.
1 fundamental solution would be to just hire better cops and train them better. Too many wackos in law enforcement tarnishing the reputation of the otherwise good cops.
too many are needed and there are always people who aren’t smart get involved. there are even dummies in IB, at a smaller proportion but they exist.
same with the military. tons of people get involved not because they want to serve the country because they have no other option. it reforms them into doing better.
having higher standards outright isn’t the right solution, but improving the character and understanding of police officers into meeting the good standards through proper training is worth the cost. just have to make sure middle management and govmt. officials don’t stick the money up their ass
I don't see it happening lol. Anyone with a reasonable IQ or work ethic probably isn't trying to be a cop. The risk to reward just isn't there.
Compensate police officers better and raise the hiring standards.
Have independent groups review cases against cops.
more top down accountability. police chiefs and DA’s who prosecute lightly to resign if they let something slide or condone something obscene.
internal affairs and military like analysis and reporting of shootings to a separately aligned or incentivized group of people. e.g. state police analyzing local police, national police looking at state violence. FBI getting involved with continued or repeated cases etc.
basically better alignments within the system really. but there are ~1000 deaths by cops a year and statistically 10% are questionable at most. resources to track this and other heavy crimes should be an expense we are all willing to make. hopefully we have better reporting, requiring video footage of every police officer on ground duty when doing a call to a scene and punishing those who dont severely.
basically improved transparency.
First have it be acknowledged that calling out police brutality isn’t given the middle finger to all cops. It’s simply asking that cops who break they’re oath be held accountable. When this happens I think we could move forward with a solution.
We live in a world now where 2 men and 2 women can marry , adopt children & enjoy the most celebrated status with pride month and rainbows everywhere you look contrary to religious and moral beliefs or the laws of Mother Nature whilst black men and women have been fighting for the right to breathe for 400+ years. There is a lot that we clearly could do, should do but haven’t done because we seem to be far too comfortable being racist and worse still t is acceptable.
damn bro way to bring your vile homophobia into a thread on a completely different subject
For the past 50 years we have changed the landscape of society and institutions to cater for the never ending demands of LGBT , yet we still can’t seem to find a way to deal with police brutality, institutional racism and corruption? I think it is completely relevant and we need to have a discussion as to why black’s struggle continues for 400+ years. I would like to see IBs, retailers, schools, hospitals to put up the black lives matter fist logo on their branding and premises window in support of the current unrest, the way they do with rainbows. You know and I know - They won’t do it.
Legalize as many drugs as possible to end the drug war. So many problems are caused by violence resulting from the drug trade. Legalization is the biggest "silver bullet" there is to lower the amount of violent crime and demilitarize the police force who fight the drug war.
I would also add prostitution, sports gambling, basically any way gangs make money we should look at legalizing if possible.
Another low hanging fruit is to ban no knock warrants
Idk if this would work. If you’re a drug dealer and that drug becomes legal, are you going to become an accountant? No. You’re going to move to something else on the black market because that’s your skill and it pays much better than any legal skills you have.
You can’t get rid of laws so that people don’t break them. We live in a society with rules and if you can’t live by those rules, you go to jail.
What we can do is create policy to help these bad areas move out of poverty. Police shootings might partially be by race, but I think there’s a bigger correlation to crime rates in the area and to poverty.
Alcohol being illegal used to cause a huge amount of violence. This is the same idea.
Legalization of pot and essentialy decriminalization of practically all drugs has done nothing to reduce violent crime in the Bay and has significantly increased property crimes, so I am not sure why you think it would suddenly reduce crime elsewhere. Plenty of countries with insanely strict drug policies have next to zero violent crime. There is no logic to thinking that legalizing drugs is going to be a panacea for lowering violent crime.
I honestly don't see what activists bring to the table other than fomenting anger and spreading misinformation.
The problem at the root are the values of the community. Why doesn't Japan have such episodes so often? Or Norway?
One might argue that part of the problem are large urban conglomerates with high concentration of people, yet you don't have the same issue in Tokyo. Then the problem might be that the Western equivalents are hyper mobile and open societies which place little to no value in local communities and social trust.
There's also a strong tendency by media and activists to escalate every episode in racial warfare, often with the intent to dismantle institutions. I don't think it's solvable.
At this point I'm more interested in salvaging what's salvageable of society and let looters and agitators eat themselves out. We are going back to the age of castles.
I have been to Japan, it is a very different society. Foreigners are not part of actual Japanese life. Especially if they don't speak the language, don't look Japanese, etc.
Also, there are entirely different values put on skin color in Asian countries, without blaming anyone or pointing fingers. If you are black/dark/brown or anything else than the "standard" person in some nations over there, your life will be impacted significantly.
Those Asians might be polite but they're super racist I gotta say.
Because of their collectivist, traditional society with a focus on respect and hierarchy the Japanese are more likely to internalise their grievances than protest and riot and that may shed some light on their high suicides rates. plus they have their host of their own unique issues such as hikimori phenomenon and businessmen with school girl fetishes buying their underwear. I mean wtf
The US has incels and a growing market of cuckolds. No reason to lecture anyone about anything. They also have very low crime, no ghettos, no political polarization, no riots, no terrorism. Maybe they are doing something right.
Wow, I actually agree with you on this.
Media just can't stand away from that social unrest $$$. Talk about self-discipline here.
Civility in the US and other Western countries have dropped so much that the places the West used to consider boorish and uncivilized now consider the West to be uncivilized.
In a way, the 21st century is already the Asian century. It's not just China. But also countries with huge economic potential in South East Asia like Indonesia and Vietnam + Korea, which is at now at an inflection point from a regional power to becoming a world power.
I suspect that by 2050, the US will become the new British Empire, still kinda relevant but it's hegemony and former glories long gone.
Sadly, I think the same. I really hate having to live through the decline.
We can’t measure the size of the problem based on how fucked up an individual incident is.
1,000 people a year are killed by cops in the US. Presumably a small fraction of those are innocent . . probably smaller than the 164 cops killed in the line of duty last year.
We have a cop on life support in Vegas after being shot in the head last night in connection with a protest.
Someone above said you can fight police brutality while still respecting cops. True. You can also say this problem is too small compared to others, without being a callous jerk who doesn’t care.
I'm sorry,...what the actual fuck? "A small fraction are innocent?"
It's not about innocent vs. guilty, it's about getting killed.
The penalty for robbing a store is not death, the penalty for speeding is not death. This is not about cop deaths vs. citizen deaths, it is about cops taking the life of a citizen they have no right to take. Cops sign up to be put in the line of duty. You can take the uniform off if you don't want to be put in a dangerous position.
Citizens are dead and they should not be. It is a common tactic on the right wing to demonize the person who was killed (Michael Brown anyone?), without considering that, whatever they did, they did not deserve to DIE.
Please re-read my last sentence, thanks.
“Dr. Ram A Dick In My Ass” is not a serious person. I would not expect a serious thought from him.
You know what other problem you thought was too small to worry about? The total deaths from Covid in the U.S.
This isn't just about black people killed by cops. It's black people getting followed around stores, stopped by police for no reason, over-sentenced, kids tried as adults, red-lining, and other forms of discrimination. If you can't see that, then yes, you are a callous jerk.
Just because I don’t break the problem down to every last thing that happens, doesn’t mean I’m blind to what happens. Was trying to be brief. My only point was, don’t measure the size of the problem based on how fucked up the George Floyd situation was. Probably the worst thing I’ve ever seen, but as one incident it doesn’t tell me the size of the problem.
Why man... why do you always have such bad takes on everything? It's like it's almost on purpose
I’m just participating like every commenter above me. If you’re asking why I get such angry responses, I think it’s because my opinions (we all have them) tend to disagree with a loud and dramatic few.
But those who engage respectfully get treated the same. Good luck finding a post where I attack someone.
Cops evading the justice system and being the executioner is a HUGE FUCKING PROBLEM and if you don't see that, then yes you are indeed a callous jerk. To put it lightly.
Huge in terms of being really fucked up, yes. I was talking more about how often it happens, Cancer takes 600k per year, suicides 50k etc etc. You get the point I’m making, not saying I expect everyone to agree.
For people on this site - largely people fortunate enough to never have had an unwarranted negative interaction with the police - maybe the first thing you could do is reflect on how you reacted to Colin Kaepernick taking a knee.
All this brutality was the exact thing he was trying to highlight, but many allowed themselves to miss the point in a fit of miss-directed anger.
You don't need to tell anyone you're doing this or feel guilt about the past, just try to empathize going forward.
The real way this changes is when people vote. Vote, having considered how your chosen candidate will appoint Police Commissioners and DAs. Spread the conversation and raise awareness.
exactly. I remember in 2017 all the backlash and witch hunt of Colin & other NFL being hailed disrespectful to theUS flag and military and other bs. Now the police are being photographed taking a knee for good publicity?!
I am guessing you think the solution is more DAs like Krassner and Boudin? Men that have seen crime go up in their cities and violent felons walk all in the name of social justice? Because that is what you are saying when you talk about "real change" that is being called for.
I feel like the answer to this is pretty easy. Stop telling cops that they're the domestic equivalent of a special forces team. Stop arming them and training them in a way that makes them think their job is to actively stop crime. The role of the police is to act as a deterrent to crime, not stop it.
As others have commented on other threads, the fact that cops refer to suspects as "targets" is a great example of a way in which police mentality is fundamentally warped. I suspect most of this originated with the War on Drugs, which should sound self-evidently ridiculous. And that's without addressing the systemic racism that pervades the system (I mean, the War on Drugs existed to arrest black people for selling/smoking weed, but the moment you see poor white folks start doing illegal drugs like opioids, all of a sudden we need to help them and treat them with respect and dignity).
Once the police understand that the presumption of "innocent until proven guilty" applies to them as well as the court system, a lot of these problems will fade. Even the person you're arresting is a citizen and therefore is part of the constituency you are sworn to protect.
I don't know that there is an easy way to address institutionalized racism, unfortunately, but you'll cut down on the most egregious offenses if you convince cops that they're not the protagonist of their own personal version of Die Hard, and that the world isn't full of gang members out to kill them. De-escalation is always preferable to violence, for the police.
Police brutality is such a complicated issue. You're talking about inherent biases acquired through centuries of evolution and social engineering. Evolutionary stress, when cops need to make split decisions in a millisecond, elevates the fight or flight response, leading to less processing power.
Guns on the street certainly can't help. If I'm a cop and I know there's a chance I can encounter someone with a gun, well I know the risk of me instantly being in danger of losing my life is high, which would make me think the logical thing to do is to try to secure all potential guns, seen and unseen.
I think the number of potential life threatening situations plus the heightened difficulty it is to calculate all the scenarios in a split second, make pay for this job not high enough. This leads me to think that being a cop is a very shitty job.
But someone has to do it. There just may need to be more alternative means available to make the job much more manageable, so that the suspects who are being engaged can be protected, and cops are safe too.
In the current landscape, you can retrain arrest methods. You can better vet for good cops who do not have any mental or psychological issues, who deal with stress well. But, these practices are far off, and it seems likely we will have more flare ups against police brutality in the near future.
Additionally, a president better equipped to respond could help. There are so many ways the current president could handle the situation to calm tensions, that he's not doing.
I see your perspective, but I really dont think its that complicated in many cases. I fully agree with your analysis of how it can be difficult making split second decisions as a result of less processing power... but I have witnessed both anecdotally on my feed of wayyy too many occasions of outright excessive force.. this absolutely cannot be tolerated. there is no amount of "evolutionary stress" that can lead to a middle age white officer on top of a black woman on the side of the high way after dragging her out of her car and absolutely socking her on in the face multiple times... or the 14yo black girl getting body slammed at a birthday party, or the 5 cops on one going in on a guy infant of the elevator, or the TWELVE police offers that bruttally attacked an early 20's black kid in Brooklyn after a plain clothes officer thought he was someone else.... dont think any of that can be warranted. YES I agree that those heightend situations can lead to mis judgement but there are TOO many non-heightened scenarios where police officer have physically done too much.
I 100% agree. There are too many incidents for this to be swept under the rug. I was just pointing out that policing needs to change in general, because the pressure to be a bad actor is too high, in general. I think there are times where there are no excuses, but I'd like to go a step forward where an excuse like stress is not even part of the equation.
I think one of the opportunities to solve policing is the same approach we have for many challenges: technology. Both on the enforcement side, but also for crime prevention, analytics and within the retail sector. This post is hypothetical and is not aiming to blame existing stakeholders, society as a whole or try to sell a solution that is without any problems. Humans are complex and this journey we are on is long and difficult.
1) AI Law enforcement and patrols should have technology that enables them to understand what they are dealing with. This may include facial recognition (and verification of all parties) inside the retail store, AI tech combined with body cams, or simply a comparable system that takes out the human element. Policing should still be a human interaction wherever possible, but humans also make mistakes and have errors in judgement.
2) Robots What do you think would have happened if the suspect was arrested by a robot? I know we don't have LEO robots (yet), but robots can't die, make fewer mistakes (most likely), do not have emotions and are less likely to discriminate. I know there are studies telling that even complex AI systems DO discriminate against minorities, but we can improve these system.
3) Technology in general I have lived in many countries before and the first thought I had was: If a consumer had paid for a retail purchase in another country (i.e. the UK), they would most likely have used a contactless payment option. Not trying to blame consumers who want to pay cash, and everyone has the right to do whatever they please. I don't know what happened in this store and whether the used bank note was real or not. But there is a reason why technology is developed - it is to make human lives easier and make processes more efficient. If only 1 life could've been saved by using cashless checkouts in retail, then we should all consider using it.
nb: this is not a post blaming the victim, society, or anyone. Just a few ideas how the future could look like at one point to avoid losing other lives.
You're trust in tech is worrying.
Face recognition is actually going to make it worse. It makes sense in theory to boost security and surveillance but can be highly oppressive when it is used as an excuse to invade privacy.
AI is going to eliminate many blue collar and white jobs and robo cops can be programmed to have bias based on stats. Simply the racist BS stat "Despite making up 13% " can be easily programmed into them and lead them to actively distrust minorities while trusting whites, worse yet they can get trigger happy if a simple malfunction occurs.
Tech is going to create new problems, as a society we're not ready to even deal with the massive unemployment that will occur when AI becomes standard. Tough sell to have your job eliminated by a robot or AI and then be patrolled by a robot, a double middle finger.
My post was promoting technology to get posts/replies like yours! I am not saying it would work or the solution would be easy.
Thanks for your comment, great insight regarding the pitfalls of tech based policing.
London is an example where facial recognition is already in use, I didn't feel oppressed at all.
How is the stat racist or BS? How can a fact be racist? I am perplexed.
AI doesn't need anything programmed into it. AI is based upon pattern recognition.
The main way you correct police brutality is by changing Use of Force policies within the police force.
But wait, you ask. Don't these things keep police safer?
No.
One of several key things is the complete abolishment of an internal review system for police offenses in favor of a completely independent and community-led effort. Its clear that cops policing other cops for their wrong actions is not working.
Outside of the inherent political/legal/social complexities that come with police work the simple nature of most workplaces is that we see people scared to speak on behalf of others in fear of being reprimanded or coerced into swaying a decision for personal or career gain. This cannot exist in a an agency where the consequences of folk's actions are literally life and death.
I'd recommend checking out Campaign Zero's website for a much more comprehensive list of proposals, tons of solid research, and information on how to donate. Ultimately it's going to be up to our industry's leaders and folks like them (who are wealthy and have political ties) to lobby hard for the policy changes that make this happen.
1) All misconduct is investigated by an independent review board.
2) All police wear body cameras.
3) Any settlement for police brutality is paid out of the police pension fund. Right now, it is paid for by the city, essentially taking money from tax payers. If done through the pension fund, it would convince good cops to step in when "bad apples" act up. Pretty simple and would create a major shift in the response and culture of the police department.
I'll say I think the majority of cops join for the right reason and want to help people. The problem is a culture of protection and unchecked power the institution has been given. There needs to be more restrictions.
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