What makes people believe they don't need to network?
Even to make friends - you need to talk / get to know new people.
Why would getting a job be any different?
Discuss.
Even to make friends - you need to talk / get to know new people.
Why would getting a job be any different?
Discuss.
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+30 | Being Christian in investment banking | 14 | 3d | |
How do I become Sigma | 15 | 1d | ||
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I just let my swag attract the bishes.
I have to network just to get a first round interview...
I have to network just so i can receive an email saying
"Your application expressing interest in the [insert bank name] - Summer Internship - MA position has been successfully received. A member of our Staffing department will review your qualifications"
Anyone who thinks that in this environment is delusional.
BUT. A lot of us just really hate networking, and believe that ideally our credentials should speak for themselves. The fact that I managed to kiss a bunch of ass at a firm doesn't mean I'll do a better job if I'm hired. But the reality is, the more ass you kiss the better your odds are.
Networking is horrible and awkward to some of us. We're the type that has two or three friends close friends and not much else. We're the type that doesn't have a Facebook. We're the type that finished undergrad not being able to name 90% of the people in our classes. But a lot of us are really goddamned smart and will do an excellent job at whatever we're hired for.
Honestly, hearing about networking was the most shocking thing I learned from WSO. If before finding this site you had asked me "If you had your dream job, and a student at from your alma mater e-mailed you asking to talk to you about your job, what would you say?" I would have answered "Go to hell, I'm busy." Finding out that people actually do things like this blew my mind. And some of the more "aggressive" networking techniques people talk about here ("I've cold called 200 boutiques", "What's the e-mail format for X bank Y branch?") kind of disgust me. I just can't imagine that these busy people really want to talk to random students looking to do the same job as them. Give them a break.
In the words of Harvey Specter: you "don't get it."
Phenomenal Suits reference and I completely agree. None of these people will have any type of high level success without the ability to network at a certain level. Fact.
This is the exact problem that many people have, stats are only half or even less than that of the picture. There is more to life than the fact that you understand what your teacher tests for and you do well on exams. You have to be able to work in a social setting. Being able to work as an individual shouldn't be allowed because in the real world when does that even happen. So the smart kids that are essentially anti-social shouldn't get jobs just because of their stats. In the same breath, I don't think that frat stars who can schmooze their way out of any situation should be getting jobs solely on that either.
networking = demonstrating 'soft skills'
Very good point. Networking has its benefits but is a very poor substitute for ability. One of the things I love about Europe & Asia is their greater emphasis on ability (grades, papers, experience).
I personally dont understand people who call/msg me thinking that they have boosted their chances of employment simply because I've rewarded them with some of my scant free time. The analysts we hired have a minimum of a CFA or postgrad or good target. Nobody in our HR dept can get away with scheduling an interview simply because the candidate spammed their inboxes. Yet on WSO, the concensus is that networking > CFA. Mindnumbing. How does cold calling make you any good at digesting myriads of company financials and comps?
You guys are missing the point of networking I believe.
We are not advocating for people to spam potential employers' inboxes (that would tactless) nor are we saying no credentials + networking = offer. All networking does is simply increase your chances. Furthermore, at the very least, it's a great way to meet people and learn about what they do.
Networking can also be beneficial from the employer's perspective, as it eliminates the need for employers to proactively look for potential employees. This is why qualified non-target candidates are hired. Rather than spend money and resources for on-campus recruiting, a simple referral can give a candidate what he wants, and the firm what they want -- a qualified analyst.
I don't think anyone is really saying networking trumps credentials in all cases. A balance of both is certainly needed, however. How can anyone know that you are qualified if you don't put yourself out there? Similarly, how can you expect an offer without being qualified? So for all you prospectives out there, just do both to the best of your abilities. They are not mutually exclusive.
I think the best part of networking is getting the random messages on WSO from people in India looking for a job
hahha got one last month
I've spent too much time networking and have to build up my stats.
peace
There's no greater feeling than seeing the fruits of your networking labor payoff in the form of an interview or job offer.
The thing is that you don't need to network to succeed in life up until you are trying to find a job. You get into the best colleges because you have the best stats and write the best essays. That's why a lot of people have trouble networking, because they have to step out of their comfort zone to do it.
You can look at a million resumes but in the end I think there are a lot of people that are smart enough to do almost any job. Obviously you need to be smart enough to a degree, but if someone has the initiative to reach out they can show you how passionate they are about the job. Most of the time that's what is going to make them successful.
Degrees, excel, finance and writing skills are commodities. Your network is the differentiator.
Keep in mind, at the MD/VP level all that matters is your network... why would you think that developing that skill / asset wouldn't be important early in your career?
I'm reading through the replies in this topic and I'm a bit confused.
The question I have is: Do you guys network because you want to increase your chances of getting that interview/offer (rhetorical, I know) or do you do it because you're actually genuinely interested in learning about/getting to know others?
Both. And for the later that becomes more important once actually working.
Networking shouldn't mean being a pest, or that you are lacking in your resume. You should try to have the best resume, and then network to try and meet people and/or learn more about the job you want.
A lot of the people slamming network will prob never rise the ranks in whatever respective business they are in or be less successful than they could have been had they learned how to network and develop relationships. How do some of you guys think all the rainmakers and people at the top of your business get new business? By waiting for new clients to reach out to them? Doubtful. The best investment bankers are prob huge pests that harass clients into doing deals. I don't see why developing this skill set early on would be considered ridiculous. And it's clear a lot of you haven't figured out one basic principle: Business is about relationships.
Non sequitor. Best bankers are gregarious. Than doesn't mean that the most gregarious make the best bankers.
It's not really a non sequitor, it's a presumption / observation. He isn't saying that something doesn't follow after his observation. If he followed up his initial statement with "you have to harass clients to be a good banker," then he would be using a non sequitor. You inferred the second sentence, he didn't write it.
"Bill lives in a large building, so his apartment must be large." This is a non sequitor because it is trying fallaciously to prove that the apartment is large because the building is large.
It was simply an observation, all the highest producing MDs I worked with were the guys on the phone hammering clients to deals, and were also at conferences trying to meet new people and get new clients. I was simply stating that networking and learning how to develop and manage relationships is necessary if you hope to move into a revenue generating role in a client service business such as IB or consulting.
The problem I think is that most people think it's a one-way street. Just because you e-mailed someone does not give you the right to network with them and get the benefits of their time. YOU have to bring something to the table, whether that be your personality, your qualifications, or a special skill set.
The important part is getting the skills / qualifications to show that you should be listened to. Simply cold-calling and MD as a student from Middle of Nowhere Community College does not give you the right to a job.
For me it's not so much that i think that i don't need to network, i just feel awkward using people just to get a job. It's like I don't know you, don't really care to know you. You go to the presentations and afterward "show interest" in the person and the job, but in reality the only reason you're talking to them is so they give you a card and hopefully ability to forward your resume. it just seems so disingenuous.
Lately, tho, i have been trying to put that feeling behind me. I need a job.
THAT'S NOT FUCKING NETWORKING.... here is the issue right here guys...
"I just feel awkward USING PEOPLE just to GET A JOB" that proves right there that you have no clue what networking is.
As blackfinancier mentioned, your only focus in networking should be introducing yourself, finding common ground, and making sure that you offer to help them in any way that you can. I know a lot of you think you don't have anything to offer, but that's so bullshit. Networking is when you talk to an MD and in "small talk" you find out that his son loves to play guitar, and he's thinking about taking some lessons... "Oh that's really cool, I actually play guitar myself... you know what I found helpful when I was starting out was x, y, and z. I took lessons from this guy, and bought these videos. Your son should definitely check them out if he's looking to make some headway."
Holy shit did the universe just implode? Nope. You were just a human being engaging in a conversation with another human being. See this MD that you little nerds with your perfect SAT scores worship as the almighty deity of our universe is a human being too. Did you ever stop and think, hey, he works a fuck ton of hours but his most important priority is likely his family. Hmm... you probably know the feeling you felt in the past when your dad took time out to engage in your interests... OMG... what if I mention some things that might help him connect with his son, given that you are roughly the same age and probably have a better pulse about what kids would be into than he would. You just provided him some tangible value.
You aren't asking for a job, you're just talking with them. But one of the most basic business principles is that all else being equal and assuming that people are competent, people would rather do business with people they like. BE LIKEABLE!!! If you are likeable and can hold a conversation, people are going to want to talk to you because people are curious and believe it or not, we are hardwired to try and find common ground with others, it makes us feel more comfortable. Don't over think things.
Networking isn't one of the most important skills you can possibly have in your life. Read "Never Eat Alone."
And how would that make me more qualified for the job and more deserving of an interview? Also, giving an MD advice on how his son can be a better guitar player is not on the same level as having an MD getting you a job. You're still taking a hell of a lot more than you're giving.
The above should say "is" one of the most important skills... Miss-typed and unable to edit.
i network so that i can bang their girlfriends.
I think what is missing from this post is networking is not just about getting an interview. To me the path to getting a job required two things: 1) learning the skill sets and 2) knowing the right people to advise/mentor/vouch for you. Networking is not just about getting a job because without the right experience, you are very unlikely to get hired. But networking correctly with the right people can help you to build the right skill sets to land a job. Networking can provide you with the knowledge and skill sets you need to build up your stat, especially at junior level.
Especially in Finance, there are a lot of things that you can’t learn looking online or through books. I have spoken to many people, and fortunate to meet a few very intelligent people who have explained to me in a single meeting about the industry that would have taken me days to look through it myself.
Only through networking with the right people you can learn what you need to do (making sample works such as pitch book on industry landscape for IBD, initiation report for Equity Research, sample models for both IBD and Equity Research).
Personally, making these work samples are extremely important to demonstrate that 1) you are interested in Finance, 2) you can do that job, 3) this is something that the employer can immediately use, especially for non target junior level candidates. This can greatly improve the chances of getting an interview and a job.
You will be meeting a lot of people and getting them to offer you a job is not the ultimate goal of networking. Some will give you leads/referrals. Some will tell you about their firm that you can’t find online. Some will tell you how a day at their job looks like. Some will teach you something along the way that you can use. Some will become good friends that you can depend on for other things in life. I think a good networker can make good use every situation and through every person that he meets in his life. In summary, to me, networking is not one dimensional as networking just to get a job.
I'm going to echo the statements above stating how ridiculous the whole networking concept is, at least for job-seeking college students. It just seems so superficial. Like what shep said before me, you pretend like you give a shit about some employee and fondle his cock all in the hopes of getting an interview. Why the hell should this give me priority in getting an interview?
People say that networking is not a one-way street, but college students don't have anything to offer. If I was a VP or MD and some random college kid contacted me, I wouldn't take time out of my busy schedule and put my ass on the line to help him because I expected anything in return, it'd be because I genuinely wanted to help him (the same reason people decide to be mentors).
I wish that getting a job/interview had more to do with your credentials rather than pretentious ass kissing, but it is what it is. If you go to a non-target, then you'll never get a job in high-finance without having to spend hours upon hours emailing and cold calling strangers to get them to vouch for you because apparently that makes you more deserving of a job/interview than simply filling out a job application. I'll make sure my kids go to targets so that they don't have to waste their time with all that bs just to get an interview.
False
Awesome thanks for the counter-argument.
^^^ I agree with the above post, I think people miss out this post, which explain even if you have nothing to offer, what you can do to network effectively: http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/how-to-break-into-ibd-from-a-non-…
Did someone mention cock fondling? Hi.
Rufiolove, thank you for articulating your thoughts on networking much more eloquently than my own. You're absolutely on point. SB +1.
Look, rather than argue every single minute detail with him, try to actually listen to what he has to say. The man is giving you some great advice that could really benefit you in your own career, and you're just brushing him to the side.
To those bringing up cultural differences in networking between London and New York, yes these do absolutely exist. That having been said, it baffles me that anyone would look down on someone who was hustling hard to improve their situation.
Networking is not to kiss asses or use other people, if that is your mentality going into it then you are not networking. You make friends as you grow up and networking is really no different, you are now making professional friends in a field you want to be in or already working in.
Jobs in finance are highly coveted and a lot of times aren't accessible to the public so you will need to know people from the inside to give you a leg up. Most of the job openings I come across nowadays are through my professional network and often are not publicly posted on job boards.
Networking is the first opportunity for people to know you on the personal side if you are a douche or not. If you are fucking crazy or not. The chance of you landing a job is significantly higher if someone from your network referred or recommended you to the hiring manager. The anti-social attitude will not get you anywhere in finance, you can definitely get by with that on tech and engineering.
Your credentials tell people that you have demonstrated a certain capability to follow rules and do well in structured environment. I have no doubt most of us here on WSO can crank out excel sheets and create models after X amount of training as that is a hard skill that can be mastered. At the end of the day, we are on the sell side and one must not forget that relationship building and management skills will take you farther up the ladder than what's on your diploma.
+1 SB (Gave). Pure Gold.
lol 10 monkey shits in a single thread, new record for me. it'd be especially hilarious if it was rufilove who meticulously went through each of my 7 or so posts to toss monkey shit at every single one.
I understand what you guys are saying. I just think it's stupid. Agree to disagree I guess. I guess that some undergrad college students tell themselves that they're "making professional friends" when they approach an employee at a company info session, but we all know that the ulterior motive is to get a job (aka you're using someone). But I guess it's a fair deal because in exchange for getting a job, I can offer some amateur guitar playing tips and restaurant recommendations!
Moar monkey shit plz
Networking is helpful from the recruiting side because any job that is posted online will receive a millions applications.A lot of the resumes will be very similar, and you don't have time/resources to go through all of them. A referral from someone generally implies some level of confidence, or at least that the person who is recommending them thinks they might do a job. So it helps you filter through people, and even with an intensive interview process, the people who get offers don't always work out.
If you're forwarding on a resume to a friend or coworker, you obviously wouldn't want to recommend someone who can't do the job or is a bad candidate. So if someone reaches out to you, you don't always help them. If the person isn't qualified for a job, you don't refer them because you don't want your name attached. some person you may be able to give some good advice, and other people you just don't help. On the flip side, sometimes someone great contacts you, and that person you definitely want to help or you want them to work with you.The idea you seem to have is that networking will cover up lack of ability, when really it just gives you more opportunities for other people to know about you.
Such a wonderful attitude...
I also agree networking can be annoying,but it's also helpful just for the information you can gain. A lot of layoffs have happened, and the positions that do come open are usually filled before word gets out, especially at the junior levels and everyone has a friend who can do the work.
It may not even be layoffs, you may just want to leave your firm later on and knowing people at other firms can be Extremely helpful in finding a good fit for you. You may even want to completely change industries, and networking will be the best way to figure out where you really want to be. You can learn a lot in short conversation from someone about their job/firm/environment.
Again, I agree it can be annoying, and most people don't feel like doing it all the time, but its really beneficial for both parties.
Thread seems to have exploded since last post. I'm with JDawg. And I seriously dont know where all this monkey shit is coming from. Use the shit for trollish unproductive posts, not simply because you disagree with someone's (well-articulated) opinion!
I'm no finance guru. But I have been involved in the recruitment process twice now. From my own personal observation: networking has gone overboard. We see too many CVs & referrals to candidates with zilch skills/intellect.
A good banker requires intellignece and social aptitude. The former is by far, harder to find. The latter, however, is in abundance and can be taught.
Low/mid GPA & non-target (on their own), signify a mediocre intellectual capacity ("signify" being the operative word). I don't care how socially gifted you are. Send that CV to me & it goes straight to my shredder.
Moreover, few people can hire someone with below-par or average credentials & get away with it. It's called office politics. The only way I was able to worm my way into a good ER/consulting gig was by spamming credentials. The targets in my office would've thrown a bitchfest had I come in on the primary strength of networking.
Exactly. I troll all the time, but I was actually trying to have an intelligent debate this time. Lost a lot of respect for the WSO community. Watch, I'm going to get monkey shit for this post too.
Networking should be used to supplement a candidate who is already strong on paper. It should be used as something to stand out from the rest of the crowd, learn about the person/alumni, and to show that you can interact with people in addition to excelling in school and previous internships.
I get maybe 2-3 cold emails a month from the kids at my school and I have responded, had phone conversations, and even met with a couple of them. Some of them were pretty easy going and personable and I was all about it until they sent me their resumes. There is no way I will suggest that we hire a 3.1 GPA psych/econ double major from a non-target state school (with no experience). I don't even want to be associated with that. On second thought, I would even be a little concerned recommending ANYONE from my school, just because I have very little respect for that institution. So...I wish they stopped calling/emailing me.
can i informational interview you
Relationships are king and that applies to just about everything in life
I believe networking is extremely vital in any industry. Although you can get away without networking, it never hurts to know some people who can help you out.
"I wish that getting a job/interview had more to do with your credentials rather than pretentious ass kissing, but it is what it is."
I get the sense that you see networking as something you need to obtain the interview or job and that's it. But it's how you are going to get clients, source deals, build partnerships, whatever, for the rest of your career. That's why a more 'meritocratic' system doesn't necessarily make sense for these types of jobs. Really. Wishing that it were different logically entails wishing that the whole entire nature of the career were different. It's not though, so rationally it makes sense to adapt or choose a different, more introverted path such as being a software developer.
Credentials signal your ability to do your job well. Beyond the entry level, building relationships with people is crucial in a client-oriented business. Building relationships entails: getting along with people, finding some colleagues to be friends with, figuring out which people you respect/like enough to refer to your network, hire, buy from or go into business with,etc. The ability to do this well is a necessary skill. Thus, your credentials alone do not ensure you are worth interviewing.
Even interviews don't assess this as well. Networking is a more dynamic, real-world assessment of your ability to build relationships over time. Think about some steps you might take while networking:
-Create a list of target institutions -Identify people in relevant roles -Obtain contact information -Make first contact. Be professional/normal enough to persuade someone to respond to a relative stranger -Present yourself well in an informal meeting that might include small talk (the ability to make a connection with a stranger). Make a case for yourself -Follow-up appropriately. Stay in touch appropriately
This all requires more initiative and finesse than an interview. In scheduling and follow-up, scenarios arise that test your ability to respond to different situations tactfully.
Finally, don't worry about 'adding value' in every meeting. Part of networking is getting to know people when you are not sure how they might fit into your life. Some people like to mentor. Others see these meetings as recruiting efforts or even growing their future network. Just be personable and prepared so your contact leaves with a good impression.
double post
http://xkcd.com/1032/
Sometimes more senior people actually enjoy talking to younger people and helping them in their careers. So in some cases you are providing them value by networking and they will take enjoyment from helping.
I networked - but it didn't get me a job. It got me loads of first rounds that I essentially fucked up. Then I got offers through career center job postings. However, I've always believed that networking opens up potential opportunities.
Do you guys find personality types at a hedge fund, say event-driven for instance, versus IB to be different? From what I've read the HF types tend to be more intense but then again half of them are former IB. Does this difference exist in general or is it too hard to make this blanket assumption?
I guess there are more ex-traders than ex-bankers in hedge funds? I agree there's a personality difference between IB and S&T. Personally, in general I get along with traders a lot easier - and like you said, we are more intense compared to investment bankers. However, if you're genuine and cool, I don't see why anyone wouldn't like you.
I guess there are more ex-traders than ex-bankers in hedge funds? I agree there's a personality difference between IB and S&T. Personally, in general I get along with traders a lot easier - and like you said, we are more intense compared to investment bankers. However, if you're genuine and cool, I don't see why anyone wouldn't like you.
I get what some of you are saying, but I've never seen anyone get a good FO role solely through networking without having to interview as well. What I have seen are kids who normally wouldn't get an interview in a pile of 200 resumes who come up to employees of my firm and show a passion for the job and a willingness to do whatever it takes to prove themselves. If someone talks to a kid like that and the resume isn't great, they usually get a first round anyway and with that, another opportunity to prove themselves. From there on their networking ability/connections don't matter, the credentials go out the window, and it's all about the interviews. If they can beat out the kid with the 3.9/good experience from there then they 100% deserve the job. It's funny to find that these kinds of success stories turn into some of the best traders/analysts/PMs too.
Why don't more people network (Originally Posted: 05/24/2014)
I was wondering why do not more people network? I assume that networking is more prevalent in the USA on the basis of what I have read on here and compared it to my situation. Is networking more prevalent in US than UK? Why is this?
? People network plenty. That said, networking only gets you so far - most of the best jobs are done through formalized recruiting, and for experienced hires, it's based on deep relationships, not having a coffee chat with someone.
But is networking interchangeable with coffee chat? It seems to me that a lot of people think 'networking' is just exchanging business cards, or having informational interviews, etc.
I always thought that networking is sort of like developing a 'professional friendship' (this might sound too rigid), and in some cases, an actual friendship... If this is the definition, I would agree that people don't network too much, at least my peers. Why? Because a lot of young people are very socially awkward -- they can talk to their friends and people they know, but meeting someone new throws them off, or they just end up talking entirely about themselves.
I'm glad someone else said this.... My questions to WSO: - how does someone break into banking in the UK if they fall through the formalised recruiting cracks and do not have a 'daddy banker' to bat for them? - what do you do when you want to follow up/chat to someone to build a relationship but they reply months later (because they have been busy)?
Networking is essential and everything in this life of business. I'd say it is more than making friends, but it usually takes a while before you can reciprocate value.
Always, always be networking and meeting people. It's one of the most important professional skill you can have.
In my experience, Americans have a much thicker layer of superficiality than most British or Australians and that helps them deal with the superficial interactions of initial networking with strangers much better.
Australians, and most likely Brits, do network - perhaps as much - but use different approach vectors and different existing networks to tap on.
Brits (and Aussies but I've only dealt with them in the UK) are less formal about networking because it's just so natural to go to a pub at nearly anytime of the day and have a pint. In the US asking to see if someone in the office or that you're doing business with wants to grab a drink is like asking them out. In London it's just what you do. And it's much more acceptable to get pretty loaded and my favorite form of networking is getting loaded-it's instant bonding. Here you may drink too much with collagues at your own level but it would be odd to do it as an analyst with a VP, maybe after you've worked together for years but not at first. I've done business for a while and lived in london for a few years and I remember a senior banker far older than I (I was vp level, this guy was a City rock star) the first time we met said let's grab lunch with one of his employees and another guy that worked under me and it turned into 4 bottles of wine, cognac at lunch and I eventually got home at 1 am, from lunch.
I think one of the reasons not everyone networks is because they don't know the benefits of it. I only know about networking because I'm in a business school, and they heavily stress networking. My peers who are in the arts and sciences school don't have a "career class", so nobody told them about networking and the benefits of it. They therefore just rely on on campus recruitment and family/friends connections instead of going out there to meet people.
Hopes and Dreams: What do you define as a top target and top GPA? People need to realize there's a big difference between Harvard and let's say Duke, even though they are both "Top Targets."
I'm in the UK so 'targets' are Oxbridge, LSE, Imperial and UCL. BB's and EB ask for a minimum of a 2:1. I'm not sure what this grade translates to in the USA in terms of GPA but I assume its 3.5+ as this is the minimum required by BBs/EBs there right? I'm at one of the targets above and have attained a minimum of a 2:1.
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