Ok, so this is going to read like a bit of a story but I genuinely have an interest in what your story is and why you are grinding it out in finance.
Recently, i've become more and more disillusioned with banking. In my goal to break into banking, i've ended up networking, meeting and staying in touch with a lot of people, ranging from analysts to C-level execs. One thing seems consistent with the majority of them though, they are all purely there for the pay check and have no real love for their job (If you do, it's a whole different story).
At the C-level, this really surprised me as you would expect someone wouldn't spend so long in a field they disliked and the fact that they don't do much of the grunt work.
With so much disdain for the field, why are you grinding it out?
The answer on WSO of many intern/analyst level users seems to be so they can transition into the buy-side but then M&I and more experienced users of WSO seem to state the work is not all that much more enjoyable and the hours are marginally better.
The obvious answer here would be you get a bigger pay check and therefore, can retire younger.
However, you are probably more likely to launch a fairly successful business as an entrepreneur then do TMT at somewhere like GS, go to a leading PE firm and then spin off your own PE house. Therefore, more then likely, you're going to spend a substantial amount of years in finance and then you won't want to leave as you living expectations and long term liabilities (family) have grown (This is exactly the case with a global head i know. Guy lives in a $5m house and told me he only got in so he could make money and then live reasonably comfortably).
The odds are if you go into finance, you're more likely then any optional outcome to stay in finance, something you don't enjoy. Life ife is all about maximising your happiness and utility so it just doesn't sense to me to spend a large portion of my life in finance.
So, why are you in finance?
I honestly believe a good percentage of people on this board who have the ability to go into the likes of IB could also do other things well too. So, what's stopping you?
Personally, I've always wanted to do something where I can make a substantial impact. With a few good ideas and funding possibilities showing up, it's becoming increasingly difficult to motivate myself to stay on that IB>PE>God track and not do entrepreneurship or work on a project where i feel i make an impact.
I honestly have no idea why I' here or what I'm doing with my life, but I'm having a pretty good time.
Often, people don't LOVE finance but enjoy it enough to justify doing it (because the money + the finance job level of enjoyment > more enjoyment + less money elsewhere). Some, as you said, genuinely like it.
I live outside the US where IB is more of a long-term career and most of the people I have met really enjoy their jobs in IB - not all want to be MDs, but most want to stay to/past associate/VP level.
Also, what you're talking about isn't only prevalent in finance...it's pretty much everywhere.
You're right, but the issue compared to other careers, a greater % of people in finance hate their job. A larger % f lawyers, academics teachers etc like their job.
I personally do enjoy ER but entrepreneurship seems far interesting. What made me sway towards ER in the first place is that i feel you are able to make a directly impact from soon after you join (buy-side anyway). For the money thing, entrepreneurship can pay better.
When did entrepreneurship become so big? I mean, everyone's been talking about it for the past like 8 years. Is it because of the whole app thing?
It sounds cool to run a company, but you need an idea first. And some money. I have neither. I'll work for someone until I have at least one.
Entrepreneurship can also ruin you financially....it's nowhere near as easy or romantic as people make it out to be, as many articles/personal stories by entrepreneurs point out. At the end of the day, you're also just trying to sell something as an entrepreneur to make money - there's no escaping it.
I also think that what you're saying about fewer people hating their jobs in other industries is a huge generalization...
Also a direct impact in what way? As a banking analyst making a pitchbook, for example, you're still making an impact...
SARAH ROBERTSON: And what is your background? PETER: Background? SARAH ROBERTSON:Your CV. PETER: I have been with the firm for two years working with Eric that whole time... But I hold a doctorate in engineering, specialist in propulsion, from MIT, with a Bachelors from Penn. JARED COHEN: What’s a specialty in propulsion? PETER: Well... in laymen terms my thesis was a study in the way that friction ratios effect steering outcomes in aeronautical use under reduced gravity loads.
Long silence
JARED COHEN: So you are a rocket scientist? PETER: Um... I was... yes. JARED COHEN: How did you end up here? PETER: Well it’s all just numbers really, you’re just changing what you’re adding up... and if I may speak freely the money is considerably more attractive here.
Big problem with that movie... how does a BA from Penn, MS from ...?..., and Doctorate from MIT lead to back office risk management? Just about everyone on here would crucify a guy dumb enough to do that. They overstate their comp by like 5x somehow as well.
Think they're market risk. While not trading, I do believe they make a substantial amount more than typical "MO credit risk". Guys on our desk in risk are all engineers as well.
The younger guy does seem to glorify the trader though (Will?) and his salary.
I have a genuine passion for the stock market and goal is to break into ER, and eventually own my own HF.
Also am very competitive and enjoy the competitive nature of high finance.
Why did you go into IB/Finance (Originally Posted: 02/07/2012)
So semi-new to the forum and like many others, coming from total non target with dreams of breaking into IB. I have a passion for numbers and finance. I knew I wanted to go into it ever since I took my intro to finance course.
So before I put in the herculean effort, I want to make sure I'm going in for the right reasons. What are the reasons you went into Banking? Comp, prestige/achievement associated with job title, the hot gf/wife, or love of analysis/number crunching? If I am not particularly motivated by money, are chances of burning out after a few years likely?
Thanks for the input.
"If I am not particularly motivated by money, are chances of burning out after a few years likely?"
Yes.
"Not motivated by money"...... your human right?
If you have a personal "story" of why you are interested in finance, then that is an easy way to stand out from the rest of the competition. Around the time I was interviewing for SA positions, my dad sold his company to a bigger firm, and he was his own "financial advisor" so to speak, so it was pretty interesting to see him go through the motions of valuing his own company. I am aware not everybody has something like this, and that's okay too - it's just a good way to start setting yourself apart in an interview.
From experience, I'd stay away from money talk - unless directly asked about it. Sure, we are all motivated by the salary and bonuses, but I'd focus on things like working in a "challenging"/fast-paced environment, being analytical and enjoying analyzing companies, working with other smart and talented people in a team, etc.
PM me for personal questions...happy to answer but I think a lot of reasons:
1) I'm genuinely interested in the work 2) doing IB right out the gate gives you a solid foundation to move to many other areas if you want 3) the pay is good 4) location is good 5) competitive environment
Also, one of my goals is to become a millionaire and continue accruing wealth thereafter.
Why Banking? (from a banker) (Originally Posted: 09/18/2009)
Umm anyone tell me why the heck we chose to do banking?
Seems like the most boring and useless job in the world. Seriously, you're literally typing revisions from senior bankers into ppt and punching keys in excel all day. Very little reason/need/use for thought.
Very little value add. Hours are terrible and unpredictable.
When prospective monkey's tell banks they're doing it for the "challenge," they must have meant staying awake - seriously. Apart from the hours, this job could be fufilled by a computer proficient (excel shortcuts anyone?) OCD high school kid.
Oh right, it's because of the awesome exit ops. We hope to get into PE and do more of the same with the same hours and same entry-level monkeying.
rough night? get'er done boy!
we all have our ups and downs...
It's better than back office. At least being a banker is cool.
The potential to make a good deal of money at a relatively young age and prestige... both of which seem to be under attack at the moment.
As opposed to where? Everyone has to start somewhere bud, sometimes it involves putting up with some bullshit. Remember, your a piece of shit when you come out of school. And if thats the attitude you have you'll probably blow throughout the rest of your career. My senior engineering project won a grant from Ball Aerospace & published by the NIST and I've just finished a 90+ hour week triple checking sixth grade level math. Quit being a chick.
"Cowards die a thousand deaths, but the brave only one," Bill Shakespeare
Published by NIST? That's very impressive! NIST is very picky.
This question seems to come up repeatedly on WSO. "Why banking?" "This is a waste of time!" "XYZ is better!"
Even though I chose not to stay in the field, I'm very glad that I spent a few years doing it.
You're always going to make a trade-off with whatever career you choose, or however you spend your time. The basic variables are risk, enjoyment, hours/work, and pay.
In banking and other fields in finance you make sacrifices in hours/work and enjoyment so you can (arguably) reduce risk and increase your pay and advancement opportunities.
Going to a "standard" job after graduation would bore anyone ambitious enough to actually do banking in the first place.
Yes, you will do tons of stupid work and pointless things in banking, but that's true of anything at the entry-level... even if you start a company or do something else less "conventional," you'll be doing tons of grunt work at first.
So take your pick: which variables do you want to maximize and which do you want to minimize? Then, act accordingly.
For the elitism.
Seriously, you should be able to answer this question yourself.
What did you think you were getting into? Everyone knows IB analysts make PPTs all day long.
I regret leaving banking so early. Seriously, it was a mistake.
ExcelPPT must be UBS pitchbook monkey...
I'm siding with excelppt on this one.
This is perhaps the most OVERRATED job in the world. There is absolutely NOTHING that justifies the pay we make. We create no value. The only reason our firms make so much money is because we take advantage of the bigger fool theory.
Presitge? Give me a break. Given the hype I-Banking received on my campus before I started working, I am often embarrassed to tell my GF what I actually do all day when I come home at 2-3 am.
I used to hear people (and CNBC) brag about Wall Street only hiring the "best and the brightest." This is absolute bullshit. Any idiot can do this job.
The most sad part is that people who work in fields like quantum physics or chemical engineering hardly make half of what we make.
Bro,
Most jobs coming out of college are not exciting, entail boring tasks, can be done by a monkey, or can be learned within 6 months. Most people would give their right arm for two years to work on some of the biggest transaction in the market, rather then consolidating the books every 3 months on a boring staff accounting job, in hopes to get a 5-7% promotion/raise two years down the road. Do your job and get out if it sucks, and you'll already land a better job then your peers who are still entry level analysts making 55k a year.
why do ppl want to do banking? (Originally Posted: 10/02/2010)
why do ppl want to do banking? as those in the industry can attest, its not that great
Ultimately, whenever these threads come to the question of "But its much shit...why no put effort into other ventures that led to much happiness?" - obviously I love doge memes.
It all ultimately boils down to risk/return.
So you decide to make a new app and call it HiptserGram. It can revolutionise the life of millions of hipsters around the world and you could make bank. At the same time, there is a risk that hipsters are too edgy to let technology dictate what colour vans they wear so they don't download. You as a smart guy are not sitting in a rented space with a few programmers wondering wtf went wrong? You tried to help histpers in improving their lives but they're already at the peak of their self actualisation. They don't need to pay 99c for your app.
On the other hand, you decided that you really want some sort of stable income for at least two years. The networking might lead to a job working somewhere you like. It might however lead to a banking-esque job, cloaked under the veil of private equity but still, you can afford to eat where you want, without worrying if ad revenue from HispterGram would have covered your meal expenses for the week. In that respect, a few excel shortcut, lack of a F1 key and formatting actually doesn't seem too bad.
You work to make a living or you work to make a change. Consequently, working to make a change can actually leave you with little more than....change. Choice is yours.
Money. Prestige. Bitches.
Its not as if we're curing cancer here....HOWEVER....if someone wants $$ to do research to cure cancer, we can get him cash (we'll take a small % of whatever we get him, which i think is fair)
seems like the easiest way to make your first million without going to jail.
it sucks. But it pays the bill and "supposedly" get us the exp...
People in the finance industry look highly upon it, still not sure why that is even though i have been working in banking for a while.
It's pretty much the highest paying job out of undergrad unless your last name is Moelis or something..
.
Anyone who gets into banking "solely" for the money is an idiot. From my understanding, traders make more money than bankers and they work less hours. Salespeople may make slightly less (insignificantly) if not the same amount but they work much less than bankers do. If money was your sole reason, than there are more efficient methods to doing it.
In terms of prestige, I can guarantee you that "bitches" wont know the difference between a trader and a banker or a HF and an IB ... all they care about is the fact that you work on Wall Street ( or Midtown).
You go into banking because that is really what you want to do (i.e., your dad/uncle/neighbor does it) ... or you really want to get into PE (i.e., your dad/uncle/neighbor does it) ... or you were just following the hype without really thinking about "more efficient" ways to get to where you want to go ...
Good point.
Partially agree with your point, but no everyone has the fit and personality to become traders, let alone successful ones. Of course the argument can go vice versa; not every trader will make a good banker.
I think your confusing "more efficient" with "more potential". Sure traders, entrepreneurs, and drug dealers have the potential to make more, but they are also taking on larger amounts of risk. I chose IB cause I actually find the work (i.e. traditional IB, not spreadsheet dynamo) interesting, and it gives me the optimal amount of risk and money. It puts me in a position to make really good money and it also puts me in a position to go into more of a lifestyle career choice later on if I choose. I don't have the stomach to be a trader nor do I find it interesting.
So no money is not the only reason why I'm choosing IB, but let's be honest, I wouldn't do it for the usual 50k, 60k, 70k.
to help companies get capital and to raise market value of companies :) :) :) : ) stfu money duuuhhhh
I'd do it for just 70k. I enjoy it.
Thats pretty much $13.50/hr (assuming 100hr/week). I didn't go to college to make what I made at a job I worked at in college.
Except you have greater exit opps, skill set, and contacts working in IB than working as a sales rep for j.crew buddy. Your total comp may be greater at j.crew for the first 3 years but over time your bank account and dreams will look like a dried up raisin in the sun. (hughes metaphor :)
someone once told me i said "Models and Bottles Were Good"
Turns out they were right.
IB is the most risk-averse way to make a lot of money.
I've made $100,000.00 deals and would like to know what it feels like to make a hundred million dollar deal. I get off on sales and success.
Banking is most definitely not fun.
so I can cum on my MD's face
youngblood said it right
i ask myself that every night but then when i remember that im actually going gods work, i feel good
Why do you honestly want to work in investment banking? (Originally Posted: 03/10/2014)
Is your only goal to make a good living for yourself and make the money to ball out? Are you actually passionate about finance? Are you doing it for the exit opps for greater ambitions?
Being an entrepreneur sounds the balls but I think people underestimate the risks and work hours and overestimate the pay. When you have a family, monthly bills and a couple of unsuccessful and expensive ideas I'm sure the stress and job satisfaction is far worse than finance.
That's just for me though. I don't care about the hours and all, and the risk is something i'm willing to accept in achieving something i greatly enjoy. However, I didn't want to make this a banking vs entrepreneurship thread. There are plenty of other things you surely must want to do, of which, some (if not most) will have a lower risk level then entrepreneurship.
To add to this last point, I have plenty of other interests that I pursue as hobbies rather than as a way to earn a living...and so do many of the people you talk about. An MD may not LOVE banking, and may not love the extensive travel etc, but may think reviewing work, traveling, going to meetings and dinners at the bank's expense, playing golf with contacts etc is a pretty sweet way to earn 7 figures, for example.
It boils down to the fact that yes, people may like other things better than their job, but for a large number of reasons the utility they get from (enjoyment they get from their work + the compensation) is just > utility of (enjoyment + compensation) from a different job they enjoy more that pays less.
Keep in mind at the higher levels in finance (banking or not) the lifestyle is much closer to 9-5 (or better) and the pay is usually high 6 figures or 7 figures - plenty of time (and money) to enjoy a great life outside work.
Because I just want to fit in!
My soul? That's not for sale, but I'll rent you my life for the next two years.
I'm going to answer your question substituting "finance" for banking, but I think the answer applies to banking specifically, as well (at least for the first part of my answer).
I think I speak for a fair number of people when I say I'm doing it for the following reasons: credentialing & risk aversion, a lack of direction, and money (not necessarily in that order).
1.) Lack of direction - I think this is what led me to finance in the first place. It's such a broad field, with so many different types of jobs and functions, that I figured there'd be something in there to interest me. I'd never had any experience with finance before I was an upperclassmen (even in classes). I'm a pretty smart person, but I don't really have any academic interests. This is not to say that I'm not interested by a lot of different subjects, but rather, that I don't have any one field of study that really captivates me/motivates me. I go to a target school and tons of other kids from my school end up in finance for no reason other than they don't particularly like any of the other traditional options (engineering, tech, med/law school). So I figured if other kids were doing it (year after year), I might as well give it a shot. This leads me to my next point...
2.) Credentialing - the 2+2+2 path is a well established, risk averse formula for those of us who want to build up a strong resume with known entities. Yeah, I won't have a ton of awesome, technical skills by the time I'm out of grad school, but the combination of GS/KKR/HBS or the like, along with my grades, signals to future employers that I have pretty decent brainpower and a good work ethic. Does this thinking make sense? Meh, depends on your point of view. To some people, this path is overly hyped and a waste of time, especially if you want to end up in a different field from the beginning, say at a hedge fund or other asset manager. To me, it's a good option because it builds my credentials and I honestly am too much of a pussy to try anything else. It gives me a way to postpone my decisions in terms of what I actually want to do for the duration of my career, and the fact that I get to (hopefully) work at well known shops and go to an excellent business school is a big plus.
3.) Money - this is the least important factor for me personally, but I can't deny that it has some power over my thinking. My parents are pretty well off, and finance seemed the best and quickest way to attain the standard of living they enjoy. To be fair, they haven't always been well off - they both went to years and years of school and training before they earned good money (one is a surgeon, one is lawyer). But I think I've gotten used to a standard of living at home and finance allows me to continue that standard of living immediately after graduating from undergrad, rather than having to wait years to earn the same amount of money via the med/law school path. Basically: I like nice things, and banking/finance allows me to have those nice things immediately without having to live off my parents.
I think a lot of these points were initially brought up by 10xleverage a few years back. Still ring true, at least for me.
I don't. P/E, Asset Management, etc, I would do (and what Im looking for right now). Ibanking is just too crazy for me. Although if I was offered a job I wouldn't refuse it :)
I just think you can apply your finance skills elsewhere with a more "regular" lifestyle.
ER isn't actually banking, which adds to your point...however, I think you're still underestimating the degree of dissatisfaction in other industries, because your frame of reference is probably relatively limited to the people you've met in finance. For example, I've heard that PLENTY of lawyers are disillusioned and do not like their jobs, and dentists are (or at least were) the profession with the highest suicide rate. Even lots of doctors (a profession which is known for its desire to help people) are becoming more and more frustrated with their jobs because of changing regulation, the proliferation of malpractice suits and associated increase in insurance costs etc. I definitely agree that a lot of people in finance are dispassionate about their jobs (as you state), but I think you are seriously underestimating the level of angst in other industries.
I also think you're over-simplifying the entrepreneurship experience. I know more than one personally, and based on what they've told me and what I've heard/read, while they are usually interested in what they do, they are stressed and worried about their businesses and competition PERMANENTLY (literally 24/7, to the point they often can't sleep at night) and eventually realize/accept that like every other large, "evil" corporation out there, they are selling a product/service, that is often making much less of a difference to lives than you'd imagine. Additionally (and correct me if I'm wrong) you have this romantic notion of entrepreneurship in your head, in which you change the world with your revolutionary product etc. Truth is, not everyone is Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos, and the majority of entrepreneurs are small business owners, who will always remain largely nameless/faceless to you, and who in many, many cases (if not most cases) will not make a HUGE difference in any lives and will earn less money than something like a career in finance will pay.....at least for now, a career in finance is the easy decision for many (including me).
As an aside, did you know that just a few decades ago, entrepreneurship was looked down upon and shunned? No one is saying you need to go into finance if you don't want to....
Oh, and while I agree not all pitchbooks get looked at, I have, for example, personally been in a meeting as early as the first week of my internship in which the head of a business unit for a huge global company based the entire discussion on a book I created, which felt awesome as an intern....I agree with you that many people in finance dislike their jobs (and that IB is often largely commoditized, but that's a whole different discussion) but I (and other people I know) really enjoy our jobs in finance and are entering IB hoping to become long-term trusted financial advisors - so not everyone is in it just for money at the expense of getting to create the next big app or whatever else it will be that changes lives the way you hope to.
Here, I get paid for Omegle trolling.
I'm in my industry (wirehouse pwm) because of the meritocratic nature and pay scale, love of capital markets, but most of all the autonomy. As long as i do well by my clients and have a clean compliance record, I'm not beholden to a boss, which I love. It's very entrepreneurial in that regard.
I'm here because of American Psycho + Boiler Room + Wolf of Wall Street.
Paul Allen saves the manatees with the help of Quaaludes
.
Yeah lawyers are generally not happy people. As someone who spent 5 years working with a variety of lawyers from associates to high-profile partners, it seemed the more senior the attorney, the less happy they were.
I think finance is a decent balance. All high paying roles are going to come with some combination of elevated stress, longer hours, strong personalities, or ethically dubious positions. In medicine it's all about hours and crazy amounts of stress. In law more questionable ethical practices and strong personalities. In finance we get a little of each of these, but none of them are unbearable... well, maybe hours in IB. At least on the buyside it seems like the dosage of each category is quite manageable relative to comp levels.
Finance is also good for people who need instant/objective feedback on performance. You can literally track every day exactly how you're doing relative to your peers. Most industries do not feature this.
If professional poker playing doesn't pan out, I'll end up in finance because there's nothing else that interests me and there's good money in it relative to other fields.
Is English your first language, timpson?
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