Advice for a 2-and-Out Associate…
Seeking Career Advice…
Currently at a MM Fund (most recent fund size $2-$4bn) and was told mid-Q1 that I wasn’t getting the Senior Associate promotion which came as a surprise (historically they almost always promote but the model has changed with the latest fund raise). Was given a 6-month grace period to figure out my next step.
My time with my current firm is running out and I haven’t locked down anything as of yet (have finished in the final group in 3x processes now) for an experienced Associate or Senior Associate position. There doesn’t seem to be a ton of opportunities in the market for established funds (I’m open to LMM) at the moment. The only roles I’ve seen lately are funds with either: poor returns, unproven track records, or are on the other side of the country, which would significantly strain my relationship.
Which brings me to my question, what would you recommend I do? Should I take whatever I can get and recruit again in 2 years as a VP, or do I have any room to wait for an opportunity I actually want, even if that means recruiting without a job (seems like a stretch that someone would hire me without a job)?
Other ideas I’ve thought of are applying to b-school for 2024, or taking a Corp Dev job for a year or two and then re-recruiting for PE.
Appreciate any advice.
From friends who are on the buyside, think your situation is increasingly the case. Have heard firms that have typically reserved sr assoc / vp for top performers now telling entire class to start looking
Just my .02 as a 2y associate you’re what, 27? You’re old enough that dating now kind of sucks, but young enough you have your options open. Figure out how important your s/o is. If you see a future, solve around that, because no job is worth love as a price. If not, maybe look out for yourself first and get flexible on geo. Shit happens.
from there I’d just kick all tires. If you have to do LMM, do it. You’re clearly getting traction so just put some fuel on the fire and keep going. Worst case scenario you’re in a few processes when your time runs out and you tell your firm you’d like to stay employed while you finish these out. They’ll understand if you’re doing ok enough work.
if it doesn’t work out then, you should probably just take whatever Corp dev job looks attractive which I’m sure you’ll have no trouble getting
my .02 only. Godspeed
Dating sucks at 27?
.
That's just not true on like every level
Same situation here and worry that if people will figure out I am kind of pushed out and take a compromised role
One of the biggest downsides to PE is that 2 and out dynamic. Just started at a fund and am already feeling the pressure of a 2 year timeline. I realize in any industry promotions aren’t necessarily just handed out and need to be earned but the difficulty of getting over the hurdle to VP is daunting and nerve racking.
Keep doing what you’re doing, you’ve made the final round three times so clearly you’re good at interviewing.
Only you know if the girl is worth more than the job. I would say since you have not proposed she’s expendable, but of course we know nothing of your relationship dynamic. But if your dream job is across the country, I would take it and bring her with you.
Don’t go to b school man, worst 215k I ever spent. Just keep working. It’s only helpful if you were a loser in high school and went to a crappy undergrad or want to break into finance from a lower paying field. It would be totally useless for someone like you who already made it to PE. Unless you get into Stanford or Harvard, don’t do it.
What about Wharton?
Sure, my main point is that I feel like each year, the value of business school goes down and the world favors job experience more. So unless it’s some super elite place that everyone has heard of and plugs you into a sick alumni network, I would just bank the 200k.
I'm sure you have as many if not more contacts in your network in PE that I do, but just as an additional data point for your reference, amongst the brightest folks who were in 2 or 3 year associate roles in PE almost all of them took a VP role at a significantly downsized LMM firm, went to business school and went the corporate route, or went to a smaller hedge fund. The folks that went to the LMM route seemed the less pleased as their role stayed similar, quality of the firm went down, or their fulfillment just wasn't there.
One other route that I saw people take was going to a single family office to do private investments work. Depending on the family, CIO, culture, it can be very exciting and fulfilling. My friend went to a single family office where the founder was very involved in the day to day, and he felt like he was in a C-suite level role: flying private to meetings, staying at the best hotels, eating at the best restaurants, etc.
Is he at a place similar to MSD?
much lower AUM than Michael Dell, but yes similar to that. Working with a billionaire who manages his wealth as a business, has fun doing it, and doesn't have to worry about cutting costs or reporting to stakeholders.
Lots of misc advice here, let me consolidate and give my thoughts:
I think as some have said, keep applying, keep your options open, look at a variety of things, and see what sticks in the next 6 months or so. Corp Dev, Co-Invest, Pensions/Endowments, etc. Lots of good areas to land and it sounds like you're open to all of those. Also, nothing wrong with a LMM fund, lifestyle can be good, you might be able to get a bump up given your experience, there's still a lot of opportunity with smaller funds if you find the right people to work with.
As far as dating, your SO. That's on your to figure out how real the relationship is. I disagree that dating at 27 sucks, I'd actually say you're entering into a great period where you have some money, have some poise/confidence, and kind of know what you want in a partner. If you're in a good major city (so basically everywhere except SF) you should be able to get on the apps and go on some good dates. With that said, if you've been going steady with your partner for a while now, late 20s isn't unreasonable to put the relationship on equal if not greater footing than a job. Going across the country for a comparable MM fund, vs getting a LMM offer but being able to stay with your SO isn't that clear cut of a decision and if the relationship is strong, I'd lean towards the latter.
As far as B-School goes, I went with PE experience and had an amazing experience, made life long friends, really better understood what types of jobs/roles made me happy, lived in a new place, etc. From a career perspective, it's not nearly as additive as someone who was a teacher and wants to become a banker, but I'd argue that if you have the money, and value social experiences, that it's not a bad ideal to ride out a tougher job market and come out the other side as a VP at a decent firm. HSW are the best, but with good prior PE experience, you'll get looks from most of the M7 schools, especially if you're flexible in the types of funds you'd be open to. Not a bad idea to prep some applications in the background if you have time. I don't think B-School is the be all end all and I can see why folks balk at the significant opportunity cost, but if it's something you've been curious about, I wouldn't close yourself off to it, sometimes the timing works out and it's a good place to hide out for a couple of years. Despite the high costs, it was worth it to me from an experience/branding standpoint if nothing else.
All-in-all you'll be fine, you've got a good base, you just need to apply yourself and see what opportunities come up. Good luck with everything.
Super helpful perspective as always, thank you!
Curious to hear more about your perspective on recruiting for PE from B-School. I've been increasingly hearing that it's quite a difficult endeavor to land a buyside role out of most MBA programs that aren't H/S, but your comment above would indicate that might be a mistaken takeaway. Care to comment a bit more on what you've seen or heard anecdotally? From what I've read on these forums, I've started to think that it's best to assume I wouldn't end up back in a PE shop if I went to B-School and just be happy if something works out.
Not OP but working through a similar inflection point in my career and have always found your perspective a valuable one to consider. PM'd you on my particular situation as well if easier to chat directly on it
I'll give you a more personalized response via PM, but for the general good of the community on WSO, my thoughts on post-MBA PE recruiting are:
In general there are a couple of buckets of PE professionals that go to B-School and where they end up after largely depends on the experience they go in with. You've got
Strong Prior PE Experience: Folks that have strong PE experience prior to B-School, so 2+ years at a decent fund, good deal experience, etc almost always end up back in PE if they want to. This is purely anecdotal, btu I'd say that most folks can end up at similar-ish types of funds, a couple move upmarket, although that's rare, and a small group move downmarket. The ones that move down either just get unlucky or have a specific set of criteria as in, they only want to be in New York, or they were at a sector specific fund and are trying to change sectors.
Mid Prior PE Experience: This is a wide bucket. So this would be folks with mid-tier PE experience, so maybe less known funds, not great deal experience, co-invest/FoF/Endowment trying to make the leap. I'd say that some succeed in breaking into PE from here, others don't. Comes down to a bit of luck, good networking, and again, willingness to take whatever role is needed to get a foot in the door. MBA brand helps here a little bit, but it also comes down to how well you can sell the story that co-invest is basically PE. Good internships also contribute and can give you a bit of a boost.
No Prior PE Experience: This group really struggles, even at HSW. If you don't have PE experience prior to B-School, I would not expect that B-School, even at H/S is going to help you get a spot. If you do end up somewhere, I would fully expect that you're starting a regional fund or a LMM fund and that you're going to have to build from there. I've even seen folks take Associate roles post-MBA. If you hustle it's possible to land a spot, but you need to be very flexible on geo/size of fund and likely network and really even work during the year to build up some experience while at school. Up to you whether it's worth the struggle/challenge.
So for you, assuming you're going to an M7 school, you'll most likely end up back in PE if that's what you choose to do. Will it be in a major city? Will it be at a similar if not larger size fund? I wouldn't count on either of those. If you're ok with a LMM/MM fund based out of...Atlanta/Chicago etc that has $1B in AUM and has been around for a decade or so, you'd probably have a pretty solid shot at that type of a place. Again, timing is important, if we're at a good point in the economic cycle it's easier, now, it's probably tougher, and it comes down to hustle as well. Networking hard, taking on in-semester internships, picking your summer internship wisely, all contribute. As long as you're prepared for that, I think you'll be fine. Where people go astray is they expect that because they got into Harvard, that they'll be in line for a VP role at H&F or that because they were an Associate at a $500M JAMMBF(Just another MM buyout fund) in Dallas that they can go to Stanford and re-recruit for KKR post-MBA. You need to generally expect that you move down a tier at the worst case and if you're ok with that and still think that B-School is worth the time/cost, then it's worth considering.
I was in a pretty similar situation a few years ago - didn't get the partner track nod after my associate stint and was given <6mo. to figure out another role, which happened right after COVID hit and basically all of the lateral PE recruiting processes were put on hold. I also was in a serious relationship and moving would have meant either long distance or her coming along.
Regarding job search, I would cast a wide net and take the best opportunity you can, even if it's not a blue-chip sr. associate role / exactly down the fairway. Lateral market is pretty tough right now and you would be surprised at how many interesting jobs exist outside of the WSO echo chamber. Your career is a marathon and there will be plenty of paths back to the buyside (although maybe not at KRR, Blackstone, etc.).
I would also have a frank discussion with your SO - getting another job may require moving and if so, would she come with? Do you guys see yourselves tying the knot eventually?
Remember, you've made it this far, which means you have some combination of brains and hard work. You'll be fine, even if you're not a senior associate at an established +$2bn fund.
Are most PE associates on a 2-year program? I thought there were more career track opportunities now without getting an MBA especially at the MM-UMM level.
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