First, let's be clear - this is nothing new. Since the beginning of time, WSO has seen a slow but steady stream of IB/PE analysts who wake up one day and decide they can't take it anymore, and that there is more to life than pounding pavement / shoveling shit / doing mind-numbing grunt work 18 hours a day for the entirety of your 20's. But recently there seems to be a proliferation of these kinds of posts. As to why, I don't know. Some blame the soft new generation that lacks work ethic; some point to the fact that alternatives like tech offer similarly lucrative careers at a fraction of the sacrifice; others point to the fact that students at elite colleges receive a liberal education, which effectively serves as an "antidote" to blind careerism (which is why, I personally believe that non-targets make for far more effective investment bankers than HYP liberal arts majors). And for those who occupy a somewhat more cynical position on the issue of the liberal education, their views could be summed up by the elite overproduction hypothesis (https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/the-elite-overprodu…).
Anyways, I figured I might as well throw in my 2c and try my hand at explaining what might be happening here. For context, though I've never personally experienced the joys of the IB/PE meat grinder, I've gained some vicarious insight by being a chronic lurker on WSO and speaking to ample friends/colleagues (from my time in MM HF and SM HF and LO AM, I got to know many people from IB/PE backgrounds). Throughout all of these conversations, I've collected observations that I've strung together into rough theories. And so while I am no banker, I consider myself a thinker and analyst, and I've been sitting on some of this stuff for a while. I think we all can gain from having this discussion.
At the crux of this issue lies the fact that most college students do not understand that, to succeed in IB / MF PE, you need to be one of three types of people:
1) You are "wired for the job". You're exceptionally pain tolerant, a work machine who naturally doesn't need family / hobbies for fulfillment, someone who is a doer rather than a thinker, ie, not intellectually oriented. (In fact, the smarter you are, the more difficult it is to tolerate mind-numbing grunt work. Put a Rhodes Scholar in a IB job, and I bet they'd burn out more quickly than an NYU Stern hardo who has known nothing but excel their entire life). Additionally, another way in which you can be "wired for the job" is that you have intense competitive desire and are addicted to winning. Your desire to win is so strong that you'll do whatever it takes and little else matters to you.
2) You are a prestige/money chaser who chugs the corporate kool aid; you love wealth and status enough to be able to make large sacrifices in other areas of your life. "IB is not a job where fresh college grads are exploited as cheap labor. It's a job where you can be 25 years old and sit in the same room as CEOs, you can participate in industry defining deals." Importantly, you do not just endorse the kool aid. You truly buy in, and that's what keeps you motivated enough to slog through the intense tedium. Additionally, while you love prestige/money, you do not want to take risk in achieving it, and would rather endure pain for a guaranteed return than subject yourself to uncertainty. Your extreme risk-aversion pushes you to choose the punishing but guaranteed path to wealth.
3) You are born into poverty or experience some type of financial trauma in early childhood that sears work ethic into your brain / places a massive chip on your shoulder. I find the poverty motivator especially compelling... imagine if you grew up experiencing hunger every day as a child and lived in constant fear of financial destitution. You never forget what it felt like to grow up in this backdrop of uncertainty. One of my friends would describe how it was always the issue of money that caused his parents to get into the most vicious fights, and that he would do anything to make sure that his kids never had to experience that. These memories are seared into his mind and give him fuel every single day. He has a fire under his ass that few others have; to him, IB is not a job where you waste away doing tedious and boring things. Instead, it is a mechanism for radical financial change. It is the American dream, the opportunity to improve one's station in life, the opportunity to spare generations of future progeny from experiencing the same pain. And so every day, he wakes up in his nice house with a nice roof over his head and a nice meal on the table and he's profoundly thankful for it, even if it comes at great costs.
In my experience, of those who outperform widely in IB/PE, many fall into the first bucket. The thing is, though, that most people are not truly "wired" this way. It's somewhat inhuman, there is something unnatural with you, something has gone wrong with your mind. It reminds me of how a previous CEO of Y-Combinator would describe all the brilliantly successful entrepreneurs he knew: "you have to be seriously fucked in the head". And so the percentage of people who are truly "wired" for IB/PE is actually quite small, and perhaps, this for the better. I respect these types of people and fear them at the same time.
Regarding the second and third group: though they aren't "wired" for the job to be able to outcompete the natural monsters and truly crush it, they're still often able to achieve moderate to considerable success. Their core advantage is that they have a strong work ethic that derives from either an intense desire for prestige or childhood financial trauma.
Now, what happens if you don't fall into one of these three buckets? Perhaps you're a smart and capable student at a good university, you've never really felt intensely passionate about any particular thing, you enjoy prestige and status but perhaps not extraordinarily so, and everyone around you is stampeding towards finance because it's the option that's prestigious. You've always been the successful and ambitious student so there's tremendous pressure on you to maintain this image with your friends and family. Plus, going into banking will allow you to "build a strong core financial skillset" and "keep the most doors open" so that you can "kick the can down the road" without sacrificing career optionality. Sounds great no? And so you say, screw it, might as well. You're a smart and capable person so you manage to successfully recruit, and before you know it, you're on the job. These people, I think, are the type who eventually "wake up" in their late 20's to 30's with a crushing midlife crisis, rant about it with a "IB/PE is misery" post on WSO, and end up repositioning into a corporate or MM PE job.
Why is it helpful to have this discussion? Well, if you're a college student struggling to figure out what to do with your life, and you feel that you don't fall neatly into any of these three buckets, then this is a great time to sound the alarm. It's time to seriously introspect and do work to figure out who you are, and make career decisions accordingly, or else you may find yourself in the very same shoes. Just look at all these anti-IB and PE posts, look at all the people in the comments of these posts, look at how they suffer. This could very well be you one day, but know that there are things you can do to avoid it. I've been keeping a massive personal repository of all of these posts because the WSO search function is fairly unreliable and rudimentary, from now on I'll publish and update them at this link (https://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forum/private-equ…). You won't have to read through many to get the idea that IB is truly spirit-breaking. It's not for the feint of heart, and if you're not built a certain way / possess certain motivators, you might suffer in the way described by all of these users. A final note – though I've dispensed this advice to many people, I've found that it's difficult to understand the true nature of a job without experiencing it firsthand. As such, it might still make sense to seek an internship in the field, if not simply for the fact that it will help you gain clarity on how much you can actually tolerate the job, and whether you fall into one of the three buckets.
As to more specific advice on how one may go about gaining self-knowledge... I'll try to do that write-up if my schedule allows. It's an issue I've contemplated ceaselessly and debated with some of the sharpest minds I've met. There simply exists so much content here that it warrants a separate long and rambling post.
I've built up this worldview over years of close observation and would therefore back with fairly high conviction, yet, I'll admit that the categorical distinctions I've sketched out are based on somewhat limited anecdotal evidence. Extracting theory from shoddy empiricism is always perilous, so the epistemological skeptic in me desires to collect as much data as possible. That is to say, I'm welcoming disagreement here. What I value most is getting down to the truth and gaining a richer understanding of the world... so, come one, come all.
This was awesome and very well done
You need to make this more concise.
Just another reason to do tech over finance. you can achieve points 1-3 without having to sacrifice anything by going into tech. Just structurally different
agreed. good points but OP could cut this in half three times.
noted, will incl a tldr next time
And how exactly is tech "structurally different" such that one can "achieve points 1-3 without having to sacrifice anything"? You fault OP for being verbose, yet you fall into the opposite trap. Without any explanation, your comment is lofty, platitudinous, and unhelpful for most people here.
1 word: scalability
Nice meme
With all deep and due respect, this is a safe space for OP to share his reflections and feelings, and whichever way they do it should be honored. Not everything has to be done the way it's done at work.
Context is everything. Most analysts are going through the 6 month rookie wall, not to mention high cost of living, being away from family and friends for Thanksgiving, the effects we are still feeling from a pandemic where we lacked connection at formative junctures of our youth and saw family members suffer, wider adoption of social media, etc. What OP is speaking to is a huge shift in the way we as a society, as a collective, work -- and how we see inherent value within ourselves.
It may be too direct, but I stand by it. If you aren't going to be additive, please comment privately.
Isn’t the golden age of tech over?
you think rhodes scholars are intellectuals?
At least he doesn’t think Stern hardos are
What’s your advice for those of us who don’t mind grinding but want something intellectually stimulating too?
My guess would literally be anything else…? Working hard is a celebrated trait everywhere you go.
It might be worth looking into public equities. The level of intellectual engagement can vary based on investment strategy, but by and large, one’s edge in publics derives from both intellect and work ethic, as opposed to IB/PE, where the best analyst is (to my understanding) mostly differentiated based on their ability to outwork the people next to them.
Generally, I think this is a good heuristic to use when vetting a job: what characteristic sets apart the best analyst from the median? The answer to this question gives you a hint as to what the job will revolve around / what type of work you can expect. In banking, the best analyst is the grittiest one - perhaps the one who can function on least sleep or has the highest willingness to put their work ahead of anything else. In MF PE, the answer changes slightly to include an intellectual aspect, but hard work still trumps (I once heard a PE partner, in a rare moment of unfiltered honesty, describe PE work as “pain tolerance investing”). In public equities, the intellectual edge takes center stage. I could go into painstaking detail here, but broadly, SM HF / LO AM values your ability to conduct thorough research and achieve a deep and differentiated understanding of a company. There recently has, for good reason, been disagreement as to whether these types of investment strategies are effective at all, and whether SM funds are any good at what they do, but nonetheless these are the skills that people within the space value. I think the narrative shifts slightly if we're talking about the MM pod workflow, and even more if we move into niche strategies like merger arb or away from fundamental equities entirely, so I'd suggest researching for yourself the different investment styles.
If your title is recent, it seems that you’re a PE associate, which should position you well to recruit into HF roles.
Largely accurate but you’re really overstating public market investing. From your post, would think that HF world does the most thoughtful and intellectual work, whereas it’s usually the opposite. If for not other reason, it’s because they get barely an info.
HF business is a lot like poker. It’s less about the cards on the table and it’s more about what everyone else on the table thinks is happening and how you can use that to your optimize your play. The “intellectual” aspect of HF investing is entirely focused on spotting a narrative shift.
Lot of people are told they are special and smart when they aren't - IB / PE has a funny way of slapping ppl in the face with this (myself very much included).
Being too smart is often a detriment to an outsized successful outcome. Plenty of examples of this
Great summation, the third point hits hard especially. Neither of my parents even finished high school, they probably would've been more proud if I had chosen to stay in my small hick town in fl and become a welder for all they care. Not being able to afford the bare necessities at times can really place a mental toll on a ten year old. I was never hungry but wasn't spoiled by any means. When I grew to have some sorts of agency and found out about finance, it definitely lit a fire under my ass.
Same background, but its almost making me almost go the other way. My family and hick town folks aren't impressed by or even know what IB and M&A are. Money problems drove me to IB and even An1 comp feels amazing to me, but the job is painful and I don't have the tastes and upbringing to feel like I need to make 1m+ a year to sustain my ideal life so what am I doing this for if easier finance jobs can easily put you into the upper middle class?
When did this site turn into wattpad
Youre missing a large % of successful IB folk — the people who genuinely enjoy doing deals. There’s some satisfaction in closing a deal, managing relationships, connecting buyers and sellers, etc etc. Thousands of MDs thrive on this. If you believe no one enjoys their work and fits into your three categories, you’re a fucking squid
You sound like a UBS recruitment commercial
It's kind of the back half of #1 (addicted to winning), but I'd argue you can't / won't know if you're this kind of archetype until you're more senior. As an analyst, and an associate to a lesser degree, you're such a cog that you won't feel the same sense of ownership over a process. As a VP I put myself in your bucket today, but was definitely a 1 with a bit of 3 thrown in a few years ago.
maybe unpopular but genuinely true - there are people (jokingly but not jokingly freaks imo) who unironically enjoy the work of ib/pe and that’s why they do it. full stop. crazy to comprehend for most people
Extremely accurate, especially third factor. +SB
After working at a top IB and now MF PE, I have noticed that nearly everyone I talk to in similar roles has the same sentiment: they don’t like what they do and don’t want to do this forever, but also have no idea what else to do with their life. It’s a real addict’s mindset. “I’ll stop one day, but not today”. The comp and prestige are so compelling, but you are truly killing yourself physically and emotionally to keep going.
This is truly a soul sucking industry, perpetuated by what OP talked about- in order to succeed in this space you have to be a bit deranged and psycho. Because you now have these personalities running groups, the culture is fucked and never improves.
I literally have no idea what I am even passionate about anymore. I never had the real chance to develop interests because I was so obsessed with “the path”. Right now I am just enduring with blind hope that things will get better.
great post
Insecure overachievers: base your entire identity on your job title
These people are slowly taking over the entirety of professional services, even stuff like audit
The dissemination of information about careers has been completely democratized and all these freaks are attracted to these places now
It's a virus that slowly transforms the culture of a firm over time as the people who survive are these atypical people and sooner than later you need to be more insecure than them in order to remain
You better get rich in this generation, because otherwise, your kids are going to live in a dramatically more ruthless time
Would probably agree that the digital age has brought information parity, which in turn might have helped create a prestige chasing culture. I think Daniel Markovits also offers a fairly compelling explanation in The Meritocracy Trap. College admissions has also now grown insanely competitive with acceptance rates at top universities being driven to new lows every year. Though now that the informational playing field has been leveled, I doubt this trend can continue for much longer. Interesting to think about though
It won’t. Figure it out now.
“When you are young, your potential is infinite. You might do anything, really. You might be Einstein. You might be DiMaggio. Then you get to an age where what you might be gives way to what you have been. You weren't Einstein. You weren't anything. That's a bad moment.”
You’re missing the elephant in the room: what all these people — and you — are passionate about is … drumrolllll …. Money.
If there was a track for making tens of millions of dollars driving a sewerage truck and pumping out clogs out of septic tank lines, it would be the same group of Wall St chumps in that game. Maybe vanity would weed some out.
The only difference is that under that scenario, the illusion of a pursuit of passion and smarts would be laughable, so at least everyone would be much more honest about why it is that they come home every day smelling like otheg people’s shit and piss.
Disagree- most college aged kids going into banking do not do it for money. They do it for prestige.
Agreed and thanks for sharing. As an intern, it's quite crazy how at the college level everybody (including me) has been chasing that prestige and brand, even though most of the people I know absolutely hate the work/industry. Am going to graduate soon, and after a few internships at name-brand shops across a variety of roles (I definitely am fortunate to have landed them in the first place), I am quite disillusioned - and my internship experiences definitely pale in comparison to the years of full-time IB/PE slog yall been through. Will still grind it out for the pay/prestige, but may truly re-evaluate my life when I start my career FT too.
I guess with banking there's always the optionality... though it's starting to seem like it's "optionality".
Even discounting all this bullshit, IB and PE money ain't shit for people in college rn. By the time you start stacking bread if cost inflation of everything keeps going at the rate it is or god forbid worse, adjusted I deadass think that any kind of regular 9-5 engineer or corp dev guy back in the late 80s through early 2010s would make more in terms of appreciating assets he could have purchased. So its like why gamble my life away when I'm not sure what I'll be able to buy.
what's good then lol? Becoming the one in a million unicorn founder? Sure lemme go do that rn.
Your chances are a lot higher than one in a million.
What are the odds of hitting MD? One in 100k?
probably work some chill job. what's the point of ruining your health permanently working 100h weeks for $300k if you can half-ass 20-40h weeks for like $150k in corp fin. at the end of the day you won't be rich but you will be able to pay your bills and live comfortable life under both scenarios. and if you live in LCOL location in the second scenario and save aggressively and invest, while in the first scenario you're spending $5k on rent to be close to your office in NYC and spend a bunch of money on clothes (to look presentable, which is a must in IB) and food and entertainment (cause everything is expensive in NYC), then you may end up even better financially while making less.
Hmm, it could be fun as well
I know this comment is satirical but I’ll actually take this chance to emphasize something: there are people out there who truly believe this. If you know yourself to actually be like this and are confident enough in that belief to bet your career and life satisfaction on it, then banking is the right job for you. I personally do know some people, albeit very few, who are wired this way. I would say these people are actually happier in banking than elsewhere.
Seems that "iB intern 36" edited his comment. It originally said something along the lines of, "This post is stupid, the only thing that matters in life is money" or something similarly inane
nice write up - your findings generally align with my opinion as well. i had a famous professor at wharton who cited research he conducted/presented in class (can’t remember the specifics but it seemed fairly rigorous) that there are generally 2 types of people who make it in high finance/ib/pe long term:
1.) people who are primarily, almost intrinsically, motivated by money
2.) people who unironically love and enjoy finance/dealmaking/m&a/advisory etc.
if you don’t fall into one of those two buckets you need to reevaluate why you want to do ib/get out of high finance ASAP. i fell into the trap and i don’t fall into one of the two buckets - i’m much happier and successful now that i’m out of ib. feel free to respond to my thread (not anonymous) and i’ll DM you if you ever want to chat
Dm me - tried to dm you but my app won’t let me
down to chat, replying here
HMU.
Hey man. What are you up to now that you’re out of IB?
HMU
Hey could you dm me? I tried messaging you but it won’t work. I don’t fall in any of these buckets and have been thinking about what to do in the future
Hi I’d really love to speak of you ever have the chance! Cheers
also to add, MF PE chasers = driven by money/prestige + scared of poverty + not smart enough
If you truly love investing you wouldn't mind going to MM/LMM, and if you are super sharp + truly love investing you would start your own small gig sooner or later
plenty billionaires nowadays that started their funds after years (even decades) working in traditional finance roles. Shwarzmanm was a Partner in Lehman IB, Orlando Bravo did MS IB -> GSB MBA -> GTCR PE, and so many other examples. People on this site lack the maturity and wisdom to understand that careers are very long term.
Lol not so smart enough? OK
There are a lot of people who just do instead of think but I feel like in MF PE a lot of the people I worked with were too decile+++ smart
Maybe it’s just a better risk adjusted return to grind at MF PE
thats because you've only worked with top finance people, try working with top tech people top founders top PhDs you will see the big difference in the smarts. you can have a physics or chemistry PhD, or prototype engineer at Apple/Tesla do the work of an MF associate with like ~3 months of training, but try the other way around, good luck!
also in PE you are already working with what worked and don't have to build anything from scratch, nothing special as an industry.
Great write up. I think something that could be positive for the industry is some realism on paths outside of top M&A or MF PE. Your life is absolutely not over if you end up at a small fund or mid sized bank. You can have a great career that doesn’t require the same sacrifices as the highest echelon roles but still provides compensation far above most other industries.
As someone who's not really any of those 3 (maaaaybe a little bit of 1, but I feel like it's easier to identify oneself as 2 or 3 than 1, so I don't want to oversell myself) and is also primarily hoping to use IB to land a cushy corporate gig, is it even worth trying to go down the IB path? Or should I aim for some other way to end up in the same place?
I think this also misses the fact some people have a paradigm shifting event happen. They lose a family member or gain one and their priorities change. Some of these depressed post are probably triggered by some life changing event (death or newborn)
Thinking alone won’t give you the answers you’re looking for. You need real-life experiences to truly understand who you are and to determine which “bucket” you fit into—or if you belong in a different one altogether.
In difficult times, you’ll discover what truly matters to you and who you are at your core. You’ll often come face-to-face with your limitations and realize that you might not be the person you thought you were. This realization can lead to moments of frustration and reflection, often expressed through rant posts here. For some, this process takes weeks; for others, it takes months or even years.
Putting yourself under pressure can help reveal your true self. This is a principle the army emphasizes right from the start.
The longer people are pampered (especially the new generation), thus not knowing who they really are, the more challenging their personal confrontations could become (in IB or other demanding places).
But please; stay humble and put things into perspective (you probably have a roof and something to eat).
A double cheeseburger and a diet coke plz. Thx
Despite the moments of bs this community might have, it is truly bits of insight such as yours that keeps me here. Thank you - I really resonate with your advice. For background, I'm currently 2nd year analyst at an EB-- I viewed getting the internship and subsequent FT offer at my firm as my greatest life achievement; as naive and disillusioned it may sound, I grew up dirt poor in a trailer park in NH... to my 22 year old self, it was not only life changing money, I saw it as proof that on pure meritorious effort, I was able to change the trajectory of my life.
Fast-forward to today: I am physically and mentally at all time low. My interpersonal relationships are at an all time low. My nervous system is shot. I abhor the culture of my group/seniors, both for how they treat me and each other. Most importantly, and most frightening, I find no fulfillment whatsoever in the work. I've been, until recently, in denial of my current dilemma; or at least trying to convince myself the money is worth it - I've reached the point where I no longer can. I realize I'm in the wrong career...it's not only a tough confrontation, but terrifying as I'll have to really do some soul searching and self-examination of purpose in the coming months. I hope to take from this experience an opportunity to be closer in alignment to who I'm supposed to be; I will embrace this authenticity for it was there all along.
"Difficulties come when you don't pay attention to life's whisper. Life always whispers to you first, but if you ignore the whisper, sooner or later you'll get a scream"
All the best! Try to enjoy the process
Excellent post.
Did 6 years total in BB IBD and EB restructuring (did the A2A gig). What can I say. This industry is super toxic and honestly not worth the physical/mental damage over a career. The pressure of the job never stops even when you become MD. I quit because I couldn’t picture myself in my bosses’ shoes.
Yes you’ll learn a lot. I went the ‘global pay in a tax haven city’ route, which means I was actually able to make life-changing money out of school. This financial security has allowed me to venture into higher risk entrepreneurial ventures. Don’t regret that.
The ones that survive and thrive in this environment all have very similar traits (not going to repeat what is said above). I think it’s just a matter of time before you start acquiring those traits if you stay in this industry long enough. Couldn’t be me.
Banking certainly saps all the creativity out of you. Unnecessary perfectionism, inability to go against the grain and innovate, regurgitating the same mindless ideas over and over again will do a number. For a while after leaving banking, I had gotten so accustomed to following instructions that I felt lost at times without clear guidance and frameworks. Not a good mindset especially when going into entrepreneurship, which I did.
The one thing I will say is that if you carry the work ethic cultivated in banking to other walks if life, you will certainly achieve great things. The sheer ability to just grind things out helps out in corporate/entrepreneurship, even family settings.
Excellent post.
Did 6 years total in BB IBD and EB restructuring (did the A2A gig). What can I say. This industry is super toxic and honestly not worth the physical/mental damage over a career. The pressure of the job never stops even when you become MD. I quit because I couldn’t picture myself in my bosses’ shoes.
Yes you’ll learn a lot. I went the ‘global pay in a tax haven city’ route, which means I was actually able to make life-changing money out of school. This financial security has allowed me to venture into higher risk entrepreneurial ventures. Don’t regret that.
The ones that survive and thrive in this environment all have very similar traits (not going to repeat what is said above). I think it’s just a matter of time before you start acquiring those traits if you stay in this industry long enough. Couldn’t be me.
Banking certainly saps all the creativity out of you. Unnecessary perfectionism, inability to go against the grain and innovate, regurgitating the same mindless ideas over and over again will do a number. For a while after leaving banking, I had gotten so accustomed to following instructions that I felt lost at times without clear guidance and frameworks. Not a good mindset especially when going into entrepreneurship, which I did.
The one thing I will say is that if you carry the work ethic cultivated in banking to other walks if life, you will certainly achieve great things. The sheer ability to just grind things out helps out in corporate/entrepreneurship, even family settings.
Excellent post.
Did 6 years total in BB IBD and EB restructuring (did the A2A gig). What can I say. This industry is super toxic and honestly not worth the physical/mental damage over a career. The pressure of the job never stops even when you become MD. I quit because I couldn’t picture myself in my bosses’ shoes.
Yes you’ll learn a lot. I went the ‘global pay in a tax haven city’ route, which means I was actually able to make life-changing money out of school. This financial security has allowed me to venture into higher risk entrepreneurial ventures. Don’t regret that.
The ones that survive and thrive in this environment all have very similar traits (not going to repeat what is said above). I think it’s just a matter of time before you start acquiring those traits if you stay in this industry long enough. Couldn’t be me.
Banking certainly saps all the creativity out of you. Unnecessary perfectionism, inability to go against the grain and innovate, regurgitating the same mindless ideas over and over again will do a number. For a while after leaving banking, I had gotten so accustomed to following instructions that I felt lost at times without clear guidance and frameworks. Not a good mindset especially when going into entrepreneurship, which I did.
The one thing I will say is that if you carry the work ethic cultivated in banking to other walks if life, you will certainly achieve great things. The sheer ability to just grind things out helps out in corporate/entrepreneurship, even family settings.
What does life changing 6-years out mean to you?
Was able to accumulate $1m in that timeframe.
Excellent post.
Did 6 years total in BB IBD and EB restructuring (did the A2A gig). What can I say. This industry is super toxic and honestly not worth the physical/mental damage over a career. The pressure of the job never stops even when you become MD. I quit because I couldn’t picture myself in my bosses’ shoes.
Yes you’ll learn a lot. I went the ‘global pay in a tax haven city’ route, which means I was actually able to make life-changing money out of school. This financial security has allowed me to venture into higher risk entrepreneurial ventures. Don’t regret that.
The ones that survive and thrive in this environment all have very similar traits (not going to repeat what is said above). I think it’s just a matter of time before you start acquiring those traits if you stay in this industry long enough. Couldn’t be me.
Banking certainly saps all the creativity out of you. Unnecessary perfectionism, inability to go against the grain and innovate, regurgitating the same mindless ideas over and over again will do a number. For a while after leaving banking, I had gotten so accustomed to following instructions that I felt lost at times without clear guidance and frameworks. Not a good mindset especially when going into entrepreneurship, which I did.
The one thing I will say is that if you carry the work ethic cultivated in banking to other walks if life, you will certainly achieve great things. The sheer ability to just grind things out helps out in corporate/entrepreneurship, even family settings.
As someone who started my career in bucket 2 and fell out after IB / COVID / whatever reason... this is spot on. Nicely done!
Think it is a bit more of a spectrum than a black and white issue, as your values change over time. I was always focused on doing my two years in IB and two years in PE, but those second two years in PE really felt hard when I realized I didn't want to stay longer. It's ok if your values change, that might be what sparks the 'crises' you mention.
I still think it is worth the grind of 2 years of IB if you are a high achiever just to jump start your career, just maybe don't immediately sign up for PE (as I did) if you are viewing IB in this regard.
Delete
Many yrs ago, a VERY senior person told me (when discussing IB as a career path for someone close to me) , "It takes a certain type of person. A rare person. It's not even that it isn't for everyone. More like it's only for a very few. Be careful what you wish for."
He's that type of person. I see why he did well. But I agree, most could never live like that. Not about smarts, but ability to be a laser and stay that way for many years. He's also worth 9 figures. The spoils are there for those that are the right fit. For the rest of you, it's agony and you're wasting your time. Lots of ways to make great money!
Thanks - I like this a lot
LLMs and AI are going to completely destroy this business as well as law
This holds true across all professional services and capital allocation domains
Ironically blue-collar will be the last to be disrupted by this wave of tech adoption
what about humanoid robots? tesla optimus, figure AI, 1X, and many other legit companies are working on creating humanoid robots to replace redundant physical white collar jobs. It is not as simple as you point it out to be
It's true that hardware is lagging significantly but the accelerationists aren't worried. The idea is that you want to solve intelligence first, because once you solve intelligence, it solves all else. Personally I think intelligence is nowhere near where it needs to be. This is a whole different discussion though
Your descriptions of the “buckets” are pretty hyperbolic. There’s another, very sizable group of people, at least in PE, who think the work is pretty interesting/cool and also are driven and want a job with good comp progression and risk visibility. I fall into this bucket. I’m not a “psycho” and definitely don’t have any sort of impoverished background. I’m not “wired” for this either; I just have a high work ethic and set expectations for myself before starting that this was going to be an absolute grind. Honestly I think a lot of the “normal” people you meet in PE fall into my bucket. There are lots of these people in the industry in my experience
Totally agree. Also worth mentioning the people who do really well over the long term are great at working smarter and delegating. While they’re for sure all in on their careers, it’s not nearly as taxing.
They’re generally very well rounded and are good enough in most areas, but where they really stand out is as a manager of people. They smart enough but not the smartest, they’re hard working enough but not the hardest worker in the room. Where they really stand out is their commercial ability to just get things done and know where and how to spend their time.
The more senior you get, the less you have people telling you what to do next and how to do it and the more you are that person. That’s super difficult to do no amount of hours in the office or on the road will get you there. Actually quite the opposite.
I also think success and lifestyle in banking / PE (and associated personality types) are hugely dependent on where you are in the ladder. The lifestyle / work situation of analyst in IB or PE compared to a successful MD or Partner is like comparing a medical student to an established doctor.
Success once you’re past the analyst grind is very much about being efficient with your time, the time of your clients and the time of your team. The hardest grinders are not the ones that succeed. And the period of the grind is not that long; if you’re an A2A you’re a VP at 28 and a Director at 31. If you’re killing your self at that level that’s a real problem.
As for my personality type, I’m definitely not a grinder and always looking for shortcuts / efficiencies for the benefit of myself and my team. You could consider me a bit lazy. I do love the chase, love winning deals, enjoy advising clients and am very commercial. If I was less lazy, I’d have been very happy as a principal but banking came easy to me so I stuck with it.
See https://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forum/off-topic/how-is-it-remotely-poss…
Sir this is a wendy's
Entrepreneurship is a lot more prestigious than IB/PE IMO
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