How were S&T intern return rates at GS/MS/JPM?
Anyone know? Curious, since it was such a good year for capital markets, and wondering if return rates where higher than they have been in the past.
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You asking specifically for those 3 or any bank across the street?
"were" higher.
~50% for GS
Really? That's almost shocking. They had unbelievable spring. Can't believe disparity between IB offers at BBs and S&T.
yea s&t is a bit different as we dont have so many headcounts as IB, cuz IB ppl will move after two yrs...This yr was great but it just appeared in the ft's bonus...if no one left, then return rate still low
50% is not unusual for GS S&T.
Source: friend who summered there in 2018.
Interested in any and all. But just mentioned big three because I've heard they handle bulk of cap. markets activity. But I know bunch of other banks get plenty of action, so yes, interested in all.
S&T rates I think across the street were lower than year's past despite having a good year
CS was around 55%
BMO 25%
Wow, thanks. That's cold. I know return rates are forward looking, and there will be reversion to mean regarding activity. Still, at 50%, I imagine there were bunch of impressive students who thought they did well who feel like they got ripped off.
yea its brutal in other BBs as well, along with other global banks like BNP
What were return rates for other banks besides those 3 OP mentioned? if you know?
Any insight on DB offer rate for S&T?
Sounds like all the info is from US? How about London this year?
UBS S&T in London around 50%
You have to remember that S&T's were by far the most disadvantaged interns due to the virtual format. In IB, you can still get people to do modelling/powerpoints etc., but you simply need to be interacting with someone day to day to know if you want them on your trading desk. S&T interns do almost no useful work anyway - the whole point of the internship is to get to know them and see if they are the kind of people who would function well on a dynamic trading floor.
Then in addition to that: - Few people were leaving due to slow job market - It was proven that they can handle higher trading volumes with the same level of staff - It showed their electronic trading systems could handle volatile periods / crises which accelerates the push towards automation. - They know this boom in revenue from Corona volatility won't last forever
The above all makes sense. But I wonder if some interns feel misled, like they were confident based on feedback they were coming back, which discouraged them from applying to other places during the summer for FT positions. And now they're kind of screwed.
Fair but that’s on them. If you’re not sharp enough to hedge your bets wrt recruiting, probably don’t have a place in the business...When interns ask me in private how they should recruit for FT and tell me they are worried about not getting a return I directly tell them to apply to everywhere else and line other interviews/offers up...interns are effectively contract workers
Yes, but I think some interns are concerned that -- if word gets out to their SA firm that they're recruiting FT elsewhere during the summer -- that might torpedo their chances with their SA firm.
Do the return offer rates mentioned in previous comments apply to interns with international background (such as Asian)? I would imagine the rate would be much lower for international students? And do you think the HR at BBs would rather hire a domestic intern than an intern with international background (even if he/she did better in the summer) in current circumstances (no offense intended)?
UBS was 85-90% for S&T
Wow. Why UBS so high, but Goldman, JPM and Credit Suisse so low? Seems like it would be the opposite.
How do you know JPM is 50-60%? I was s and t and everyone i knew got offers
Are you talking about NY or London?
NY
I know a guy who didn't for NY
I doubt that I know alot who didn't
Oh.. I guess I only talked to 3 people so I made an assumption
It depends on team. My team's rate is 50%.
Any surprise no-returns? Interns you thought would make it but didn't?
Can chime in for Asia
BAML/Citi- 100% return rates except candidates w/ obvious red flags
GS- 70-75%
Thanks, any idea about Nomura Asia ?
wow GS is pretty high this year...last yr was 30%...any idea abt GS HK IBD?
BAML was 13/16 Im pretty sure, close friend just interned and got the return...good number tho
What was BAML's usual numbers in the years past?
Also, do you think a massive proportion of this cohort might be fired within a year or so? If so, would they be better off looking for something safer? (Asking for a friend)
Also, in general, why would these companies have 100% return rates if they have no intention to retain a majority of them? I am thoroughly confused.
Has been on average 75% in the past. And no, my personal take is that they'll just make the sa 21 class smaller. Remember - this isn't IB where the churning in/out of analysts is predictable every year.
Anyone heard back from JPM apac or know the timeline for the return offer?
bump
They came out today for Asia
Did your recruiter schedule the meeting beforehand? Do they call all interns or do they simply ghost those with no offer?
There is a lot of information being thrown around how S&T hiring and advancement works and I thought it would be helpful to explain how it really works. I have worked at 3 BBs in 15yr in S&T so I have seen this a couple of places.
Interns- This is where firms really differ, some firms try to hire a lot of interns to create some competition for getting full time hires others elect to shoot for higher offer rates by only hiring enough based on where they think analyst needs will be when that class starts full time. Also interns that you don't offer full time are a great way to get people in your database and get experience with them should there be a need for a lateral hire. In terms of desk rotations most firms try to push kids to the desks they think will need an analyst. All of this is a pretty in-exact since and things change fast so you really never know what is going to happen from one year to the next.
Analysts- For firms that are non-rotational desks will get people more based on either the growth of a business, (A business is doing really well and has a good analyst, that analyst will take on some workload (smaller trading book or smaller account client coverage) from everyone on the desk which creates the need for a new analyst to the grunt work the new associate no longer has time to do). The other thing that generates need for analysts is layoffs/turnover on a desk. If a desk decides to lay-off a couple of more senior people the junior people on the desk get bumped up and they need to hire a new analyst. There will also be turnover at the analyst level as kids realize they don't like the job and want something different which will create a need for analysts but it is not going to be the huge driver of turnover like in banking.
Associate and beyond- At the end of an analyst contract kids fall into one of 3 buckets.
1. Don't like the job and will be moving on/people who don't perform. These people generally figure that out well before the contract is up so they usually have something lined up or will leave before the end of the contract.
2. People who have performed well and want to stay but there is nowhere to put them- Different firms have different views on this, sometimes a firm will promote someone to associate but they still have no direct P&L responsibility or client coverage. In essence getting paid more to do the same job. Some firms are ok with this to keep continuity on a desk that is doing well but not growing enough to actually need a new analyst. Other firms will tell these people to move on or stick them somewhere else in the firm, this can be good thing as sometimes moving to another area/desk as a new associate can really jump start a career. If you are good they will generally find a place for you has been my experience, but sometimes good people get let go and have to figure out what is next.
3. People who perform well and their is a natural need on the desk- Congrats you are now an associate with a trading book or client coverage in a product you already know and have some relationships in.
VP+- This is where it becomes a crapshoot/political b/c titles mean very little in S&T in terms of the day to day, either you have a trading book/direct client coverage or you do not. So what an associate/VP/Director/MD is pretty much the same when it comes to the day to day the only thing that varies can be the size of the clients and the amount of risk you can take. A newly minted associate in S&T is doing the same basic job as an MD just on a different scale. Once you make associate if you perform and the business does well you get promoted to the next level and don't really have to be worried about losing your job b/c their is "not room" for you at the next level. You can get laid off as part of cost cutting, but that applies to everybody. You will also see people leave at the associate level as that 5-7 years of work experience is when people start to go to business school and its an easy exit for people who take a little longer to realize that they are not interested in the work or want to try something different.
What this means for anyone in S&T- You are ALWAYS networking and talking with headhunters. You never know when you will need to be looking for your next job and maintaining relationships and knowing what different firms are doing is going to key to having a long career in S&T.
Thank you for that insight, would be great to hear your thoughts on a few additional points:
1. What roles are you usually speaking with headhunters about - other Trading roles or buy-side investment roles?
2. Once you get your own book, since you get paid in part of your PnL, does a VP, ED, or MD next to your name affect your comp - If so can you share how?
1. Other trading roles or if you are sales other sales roles. Headhunters are lazy, they pretty much only recruit laterally. If you want to move to the buyside you are going to have to find that on your own. If a buyside firm is using a headhunter that headhunter is only going to reach out to people already on the buyside. From talking to our junior guys they seem to get a lot of headhunters reaching out at the 1.5-2yr area offering early promotion to associate and more responsibility but most likely the same pay. I think some of lesser firms (Mostly larger foreign based banks with smaller US operations) are trying to pick off the younger talent that might be getting frustrated about not getting promoted or feel like there is no path for them to move up.
2. Title matters for both base and bonus, as your title improves both will get better. Also as your title improves you get to take more risk so you should be making more P&L and are paid accordingly. Nobody pays a hard percentage of P&L and there is a lot of factors that go into final bonus numbers some of which are totally out of your control. All the being said sometimes you get tossed into a seat where you can take a lot of risk at a more junior title and your bonus will usually be outsized relative to peers if you perform and you will get moved up to a new title to reflect your added responsibility.
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