Approaching Mid-Life Early.. Input Needed
34 Year old Considering an MBA
I have an unusual background. I went to Columbia for Undergrad, graduated in 99' with a degree in English then went on to become an Airline Pilot. The road to the Major Airlines is a very difficult one. Now that im there, flying widebody aircraft around the planet and earning a couple hundred grand a year, im bored.. Dont get me wrong, I love the job but Finance seems more exciting, atleast from the outside. I have family in Banking but I really cant get their honest input because they think I have the coolest job in the world..Atleast thats whats in their minds.These are MD's at top BB firms..
I am posting here because I wanted to know if in views of outsiders, it is a bad move to leave my Airline Career for IBanking ofcourse via BSchool...
Some Facts;
Currently a First Officer(co-pilot)
salary around 200k.
salary in 3 years as Captain around 300k
salary as a Flight Ops manager/ Chief Pilot 400-500k(7 years from now)
executive in the airline 1mm plus but no guarantee of anything beyond becoming a Captain although this is what the CEO of the Airline told me my career would look like if I stay long-term..(the job is overseas-not here in the U.S) although I have flown for 2 Major Airlines here in the U.S but the salary here for pilots is very bad.
Again, I am content with what I have but want am bored so please let me know if its a huge mistake to leave all this to attend say a school like Stern or Columbia GSB for a 'possible' shot at IBanking or Trading...
I have been reading WSO for years, I find people here are very opinionated and thats what im looking for so have at it...but keep it informational no nonsense please...
Well I suppose you could go to B school and maybe either go into banking or go back to flying/transition into a leadership role at the airline.
Honestly, the opportunity cost is going to be a bitch. IMO I dont think it will be worth it.
Do you have a family? What are your hours like?
If the answer is yes and the hours are decent, stay there.
Thanks Anthony, I have a problem, the problem is the opportunity cost.. The other problem is that if I stick with it, then I dont want to look back and say what if this or that... I am not greedy but feel like I can earn so much more and sit in first class for once as the execs do instead of flying hem around like a glorified bus driver, also the job is in Dubai, im from Queens, NYC and miss the life I had there as well...
12010... I was married till recently(9.5 years) Now divorced with no kids so im pretty much single, its the perfect job for a single guy but a horrible one if your married because you will work ever holiday,etc..as a junior since its all seniority based...Very high divorce rate in this industry but a job shouldnt have anything to do with justifying a divorce..There are other factors
If you get bored, take some of that money you're saving and buy an old carefully-vetted MIG for $150K- assuming Dubai/UAE would allow it. (I think the US will.)
In the meantime, keep stuffing money under the proverbial mattress. Since you work in the airline business, it might be wise to be a little overweight on energy just as a hedge against high fuel prices. You're making good money; you should be retired in ten-fifteen years. An MBA and working in finance would set that retirement date back by 2-3.
I think Business school is a good idea as it'll give you exposure to Finance (academically, of course). From this, you can network and give IB a shot. Do you think your contacts in IB could help you get interviews, etc...?
Walk.. I would assume my contacts(cousins) would be very helpful but the problem I have is that they are ALL telling me to stay away from Banking and keep on my Airline Track...
Not Bragging at all but these guys are MD's at MS, CS,etc.. I know how much they make they know my lifestyle and earnings and yet they tell me what I have is 'better' which I have a very difficult time believing..I mean yea I will never see huge salaries in my job as in finance but it definately affords a great lifestyle, atleast for now but living in NYC or Dubai one feels like a poor basta@d cause you cant even afford a nice house on these numbers, I know, its unreal
You make about 200K, fly all over, work 80 hours a month and you want to give it up to drop 100K on school, lose out on 400K of salary (plus benefits) all to start as an associate (maybe) making less than you currently make and you will be slightly better than the excel jockeys underneath you? I say pass.
If you said you were unfulfilled and wanted to be a school teacher I could understand. Going into banking isn't exactly the most exciting and thrilling career. You fly a multi million dollar piece of machinery with hundreds of lives in your hands while seeing the world working very reasonable hours. I would think very long and hard about giving it up.
Repeated for emphasis.
lets repeat this agian... if you wanna save starving kids in africa, fine, not for stupid banking
The above post sums it up quite well.
First of all, you're a highly qualified pilot. Not that many qualified individuals in your profession right? And you want to drop your current salary/lifestyle to be amongst the thousands of business professionals for a crack at it? And that is assuming someone in management gives you a low paying entry level job to start. (regardless of your extra schooling via business school, odds are, you'll still have an entry level job to start, whether junior sales, etc.). And then, you want to produce high enough numbers to impress and move up the ladder (and become mgmt) in a relatively quick pace? It doesn't happen often...
If you wanted to join the military, I'd understand. Do humanitarian/social work, I understand. But to join the rat race...
I understand the need for fulfillment in your career. Absolutely. And I think it is also the social aspect of a business career versus your pilot career that you find attractive.
But I also think that you need to do some self reflection w/ what you have and also...the different avenues w/ how you can obtain fulfillment yet still maintain your lifestyle and happiness.
You make a very good living. And you can easily benefit others through charitable causes for example. This'll allow you to socialize and hopefully find happiness. (Just one example).
*And just so we're clear, money isn't everything. Personal happiness is. But you have more than one path to choose to find that happiness.
Don't know a whole lot about becoming a pilot but from what I understand it's a very difficult career path to make it to where you are. Not sure that giving up your job and the money to go back to school and then pay your dues in banking would be worth it. You sure that you're interested in the job itself, not in the lifestyle that years of banking can potentially get you? The 500k b-school degree hardly seems worth it.
Then again, it's your life. Do what will make you happy.
No offense but it sounds like you're doing this on a lark. Do you really want to quit your high-paying job to attempt to enter a field that is rapidly contracting in size ?? Financial services will continue to contract in the US for the forseeable future so unless you're ok with working in EM countries or Dubai, don't count on easily obtaining a position with just an MBA. I know MBAs from Columbia, Harvard, Wharton etc with prior finance experience who were unable to find positions on Wall Street this year...what makes you think you can just waltz in ? If you're just going through a ml crisis, just take a sabbatical from work and go lounge on some beach in Mexico or Bali for a while....
From the info you gave, I can tell you what I would do.
I would stick with my current job and move up the ranks. I know finance seems exciting and fast paced and all that good stuff, but remember that it is not all that. I would stay in my current job, and after 7 years when i am making ~500k, I would consider whether I want to do something more corporate for the airlines, such as work in the finance division.
Secondly, if you just want to learn about finance, register for an online masters at a reputable school such as Boston University's Masters in Banking and FInancial Services Management and I think Harvard extention school has one as well. Get a masters and see if moving into corporate where youa re is a good decision.
Lastly, when you get to that point where you are senior in your current role, day trade. get your finance thrill that way.
if youre only working 80 hrs a month, keep flying and learn techincals in your spare time. you can start trading when youre not flying, and kinda get the best of both worlds
Are you able to have guests in the cockpit (jump-seat)?
Maybe you can get one of these execs to sit there and pick his brain while you fly...
Also, are the MDs in your family able to get you in their firm? (Without an MBA)?
Weigh in the stress factor and pending bank rape regs, as well.
This sounds like your typical "grass is greener" scenario. You look into first class and see all the bankers relaxing and think what a great life they have. Yet, when you talk to bankers you actually know they all give you the same response, stay way. You said that you worked 80 hours last MONTH, are you ready to consistently put in 80 hour WEEKS for years? There are no "layovers" in banking, you bust your butt all week and then, if you are lucky, get a full day off before you have to do it over again. If you think GETTING PAID TO FLY AN AIRPLANE is boring enough to warrant a career change you are going to be in a for a rude awakening with banking. Bankers pay to take flying lessons, you don't see any pilots paying to make pitch books or stare at Excel for hours. Few jobs are as glamorous as they seem from a distance, you seem to have a career many would kill for and want to throw it away for a chance at "more excitement". My advice, take up an exciting hobby.
Grass is always greener. Finance isn’t nearly as exciting as you think. I guess it’s exciting at first. Eventually, you end up doing the same thing over and over. Pushing paper, making powerpoints, reading financial statements,… blehh.
If you go into banking, you will make powerpoints for 90 hours a week for less money than you would make as a full pilot. After several years, you evolve into a salesman. You MD friends know the truth but they don’t want to come out and say it – they are glorified salesmen. You see big shots in first class. In reality, they are trudging around the country trying to pitch a product to corporations.
You should not leave your job. Finance is really not that exciting.
If you want to get out of dubai, is it possible to switch airlines, or be based out of a different center? At the very least just do it for another few years, save up some money and keep finance as your hobby.
I assume you went to the air force at some point, given the cost associated with flight lessons? Isn't it pretty rare for a guy your age to a co pilot on wide body transatlantic type equipment? I know a lot of guys flying for the regional domestic airlines here, making 30k a year or less....think you need to step back and realize what a good gig you have.
And I am not particularly sympathetic towards dubai or Emirates which I assume is your employer, but you have a good thing going there.
There's so much fucking irony in this thread it is ridiculous. Good times.
the grass isn't always greener.
as Jimbo mentioned, you are most likely employed by Emirates. Based on what I have heard, Emirates is one of the best airlines to work for. Maybe transfer to another airline, but do not give up what you have for finance. Learn it in your spare time as alot of folks have mentioned and then open an etrade account and go nuts.
I always wanted to fly for a career, but things just didn't work out. as someone who has done banking and works in PE now, I can honestly tell you that I would swtich with you in a heartbeat.
also, you mentioned you're from queens..are you still a US citizen? doesn't being based in Dubai decrease your taxable income substantially? I remember reading this somewhere around the forum, someone can either confirm or correct me if they know. as a post-mba associate, you'll more than likely see less hitting your bank account for a lot more hours sitting in one cube with no vacation time, maybe a day because you got diarrhea or something.
you fly all around the world, im sorry to hear about your divorce but based on your response it sounds like that is what you wanted so basically you have no wife/kids to worry about, the money you're making is a very good amount. If settling down is what you want, move to hawaii and fly shuttles around the islands. do that instead of giving up your gig as a pilot flying airbus' before you give it all up to sit in a goddamn cube having some md rub his nuts in your face all. day. long.
All I am really trying to say is grass is always greener on the other side. don't do it. now i have a few questions for you: what airbus do you fly (i am secretly hoping 380, because that would be amazing)? do you actually work for emirates? want to take on an apprentice?
I've got a commercial license and off-and-on working on my CFI. For a long time I so badly wanted to be an airline pilot, but as I built up the hours for my commercial I realized that I would enjoy flying more as a hobby or a way to get away and just cruise around in a 152 for a bit, and that I wouldn't enjoy it as much if it were my career. I still love flying and am a huge aviation nut, but I want to make sure that I never become tired of or resent aviation.
If you are really convinced that you want to go into finance, try to combine it with aviation somehow. Check out firms that do a lot of aviation deals, or are somehow involved in aviation. Seabury is an investment bank / consulting firm that basically focuses on aviation and transportation. SkyWorks Capital does fleet management and aircraft financing. If you're with a firm like one of these at least you won't have to give up aviation completely. Greenhill always seems to be involved in airline deals too, they advised in the DAL-NWA merger and I think they're involved in the United-Continental deal too.
Being in aviation and being in finance don't have to be mutually exclusive.
Sorry to thread jack.
Is it possible to graduate UG, go on to the AF, become a pilot, fly for a few years, and then leave, go to bschool, and then do whatever after that? Anyone ever heard of anyone doing this path
Only reason I ask is cause I know that other military people do go on to Wall Street. However, I feel like AF training might be more specialized, so they might be angry if you decide to leave. Any input?
I have a close friend who was one of the top students on the undergrad, worked in consulting for one of the top consulting firms in the world and then worked for a bank, he then left to get his pilot licence and now he his a pilot.
It all comes down to what you love doing... if you like your job but need an extra challenge get a CFA degree just for the fun!
Let's just say you won't have any trouble competing against your future classmates. In my recent experience I found myself saying "I can't believe I'm getting the same degree as that blabbering loudmouth" routinely in lecture. Good Luck!
Most of my friends who wanted to be pilots in the military either went to the Air Force Academy or did ROTC in college.
I think the real question is whether or not you'll become a pilot if you join the air force. Also, joining the military isn't fun unless you have a certain personality. I can't stand it when people I think are stupid tell me to do something stupid. Here in civilian life, I can laugh at them and call them an idiot without getting a court martial- and since I'm indispensible enough, it's just as hard for me to get fired from doing it.
Agreed that's why I could never serve. But it'd be sick to fly fighter jets.
OR, you work in banking or trading for ten years, get some training/experience in a Cessna, and plunk down $2 million for a MIG-29. It's YOUR aircraft, not the gov't's. No smarty-pants waking you up at 4 AM. And if you want to do something else besides fly an aircraft that day, you can do something else.
Thank You all for the inputs, greatly appreciate it..
Someone was asking about a typical airline pilot career path or how to get to a major airline;
There are basically 2 ways. Civilian or military.
I took the civilian route. The military route is good if your willing to make it a career,retire, then fly for the airlines for several reasons..
Military Route----College (military Academies or ROTC)
Then Undergraduate Pilot Training 2 years if selected. However pilot slots are very competetive unless your an Air Force Academy or Naval Academy Grad with great health and gpa...
Then you have a mandatory service commitment of 10 years.... So by the time your 'out' one is around 34 years of age, if the same person puts in another 8 years, they can retire with a FULL pension then at around the age of 42 can start flying for the airlines until the age of 65(used to be 60)...Its NOT worth leaving the military career for the airlines(financially at 34 without the pension) unless one was hired to fly for say FEDEX or UPS(they are the only stable jobs for pilots in the U.S)
Civilian Route---
No set rules but here goes,
Typically..
College/Flight training- Flight Instructor-Regional Airline Co-Pilot-Regional Captain-Major Airline Co-Pilot.....
The road to the majors the civilian route is not that easy because pilots are dime a dozen in the regional airlines flying for salaries of 15,000yr- around 70,000. Almost every regional pilot has the goal of makin it to a 'Major". There are also corporate pilots like netjets,uncle warrens company...these pilots also aspire to move to the majors..
I would say that Major Airlines represent about 15 percent of the Working Pilot force in the U.S.
Salaries at majors are also horrible post 9-11. starting is around 35000 and tops out at 170,000 after being with a major like 15-20 years since its all seniority based..
Foreign Airlines and fedex/ups pay extremely well so these are the most sought after jobs these days. These companies pay pilots 100-350 range...
Its definately not an easy career in America. I flew for American Eagle,Comair, ATA(bankrupt) and United... Was layed off or we call it furloughed 3 times...I was also fortunate enough to be employed in order to get layed off because its very hard just getting looked at by a major...
My career now is good but as you can see, it can definately burn out many people..
Again thank you all for the input, I think it may not be a bad idea to just stick it out and make the best of it....
Man, it's your decision but I don't how you could justify it. There's nothing in finance that is so exciting to leave a 200K - 300K job to go to b-school. I'd just do the CFA program and apply for positions in ER after you pass all three tests. You still would take a major pay cut but at least you didn't lose the 500K by going to b-school.
If it were me, I would stay and climb the ladder. The opportunity cost of not earning income and racking up bills during an MBA isn't worth it considering you've never working in Finance and may not enjoy it. If you think you've got an interest in the market, do some reading on how to trade a little bit or get in touch with a broker that can help you out.
The downside to your industry is there is a ceiling in your income potential as opposed to something like trading (if that is your interest). If you want to chat more feel free to PM but you've got it better than you think you do. Find a great hobby that you can invest your time in.
Also, although your family is bias, you may talk to them about your feelings. They would know better than anyone how exciting/stressful/boring/whatever banking really is. Open up and tell them what you are thinking, if you are still interested, one of them may know of opportunities that exist for you.
Best of luck!
^ I day trade sometimes(pretty good at it) and am very familiar with Investment Banking Roles and Finance. I may not understand finance like people in the industry but I think I understand the business pretty well.
Well all the better then. If you can successfully trade your own account, you are leaps and bounds above most other Wall Streeters.
^^ trading my own account seems like a joke but its cool. Theres gotta be much more to it that I have no clue about...
Well, if you understand the business as well as you say then you should know that execution level investment banking is no cure for boredom.
To make this work, you'd be giving up 200K for 2 years and spending another $150K on b-school. That's a $550K price tag on the incremental cash flows from banking over your pilots job. You don't have to be a financial genius to see that this is a value destroying enterprise. In addition, you give up your job security (i-bankers get fired! a lot!), and you also may not even earn more than 300K in a year as an associate (sometimes business is not so good!). in other words, you have to heavily discount the banking cash flows.
In sum, if you actually do end up quitting your job, going to b-school and trying to get into banking then you are simply crazy. Actually, in that case, good on you to get out the cockpit. I don't want crazy people flying the jets I'm in.
^ lol, no im not crazy but I will say that there are definately pilots who are nutjobs! No kiddin either and I sometimes wonder why theyre allowed to fly, this was here in the U.S not so where im at now..
Agreed with jhoratio ^^
What do you mean by there must be more that you have no clue of? Are you talking about jobs in finance?
^ Agree with you guys regarding the MBA thing and a Finance career, opportunity cost, etc...
(no clue)I meant there must me more to trading than buy low sell high, dump, buy back low, sell,etc...volatility is not bad i guess... or shorting, etc...
As long as one is profitable, thats all that matters then regardless of trading methods...makes sense
You hit the nail on the head my friend. If you are locking in profits, then it's - rinse and repeat.
Who cares if you are long, short, pump and dump, value, growth, etc etc. Make it rain on that airbus!
Too old to go into banking. Try to go corporate.
@airBUS Pilot, An alternative could be to get an EMBA (exec MBA):
They tend to have minimal campus residency requirements (eg one weekend per mth/quarter) as opposed to fulltime MBAs. Should you want to meld your current bkgd with your finance jones, there are even a couple of schools with aviation majors (eg HEC, +the IATA & Geneva U created one, etc).
This way, you can continue earning while enrolled, complete the course in 12-24mths, then revisit taking this leap. Based on your connections, you could choose to squeeze into IB/trading via wall st or other vehicles (eg offices attached to sovereign funds, etc). Or not.
+If schooling while employed, then you could possibly get your employer to spring for part/all of the bill.
those figures are WAY to high for pilots. 2 of my cousins and 1 uncle fly for (Emirates, Eithad, and Lufthansa) and they have been in the business a long time and dont make nearly as much as that. furthermore, the airline industry is terrible to be in, no way airlines can afford to pay pilots that much. captains earn realistically earn around 150-175k/yr. this post is total bullshit
get your facts straight
http://blogs.wsj.com/middleseat/2009/06/16/pilot-pay-want-to-know-how-m…
^ Illinikid, I dont want to get into a pissing contest here. Your not in the industry nor do u have any uncle in the business, I know what im talking about so please keep it professional. I can tear down the airbus on this forum and let u know as much about it as the engineers who designed it so PLEASE save your comments for someone else..........
[quote=IlliniKID]get your facts straight
http://blogs.wsj.com/middleseat/2009/06/16/pilot-pay-want-to-know-how-m…]
I think you may have missed the point. I mentioned earlier how LOW the salaries are in the U.S for pilots. I have flown for several airlines here and know first hand. Airlinepilotcentral.com has the payscales for the airlines here. They also have out dated info on emirates pay. Remember, overseas, they pay you a basic salary+per diem+ flight pay+housing allowance+car allowance among many other perks which bring the cash sum so high or else who in their right minds would leave their home country to work overseas? If you have an uncle at emirates or etihad then you should know this.
Captain Sully USAirways-hudson incident who is far more experienced than I am gets paid half of what I do. Its really sad but its the way things are in the U.S... Not trying to prove anything here folks, just the facts. and in my business its NOT who is right, its WHATS right that matters..
Here's a random question....do country politics intrude, or do you know any of the El Al guys?
Jimbo, unfortunately country politics DO intrude.. For example, when we fly over nicosia( small island in the mediterranean), we have to call up the greek controllers and the turkish controllers to get permission to fly through an airspace which is disputed by both nations, if we dont, either one CAN shoot us down. Same with flying OVER Iran,etc..
I personally dont know any EL AL Pilots, however, I have many Israeli Jewish Pilot friends here in the U.S but they work for carriers here.
Also EL AL is not allowed to fly over most arab countries let alone land there, they also do the same, they dont allow any arab airline to fly over their airspace. Other than these things, the world is really a village.. I will add, nothin beats America or Americans, no nation is so generous and kind towards people, no where
Join the air force and fly fighters if you are bored.
Join the air force and fly fighters if you are bored.
I just want to add that you might get bored of flying now, but have you thought you might actually get bored of banking? I mean, alot of people just go in for 2 years as a short analyst stint before moving on to something else. Associates prob stay a little longer, but they jump ship when something better comes up. You have to absolutely THRIVE on the cutthroat culture of Wall Street to be a successful banker/MD.
I remember my MD coming into the office all pissy and venting to another MD about this deal he lost in a bakeoff, and his words screaming out of the closed doors were "fuck [insert name of bank], i aboslutely HATE TO LOSE!"
life as a banker is tough, and the early years could be more monotonous than flying an aircraft. Like some previous posters mentioned, if you have a family, it could be tougher...
[quote=ZIRH]I just want to add that you might get bored of flying now, but have you thought you might actually get bored of banking? I mean, alot of people just go in for 2 years as a short analyst stint before moving on to something else. Associates prob stay a little longer, but they jump ship when something better comes up. You have to absolutely THRIVE on the cutthroat culture of Wall Street to be a successful banker/MD.
I remember my MD coming into the office all pissy and venting to another MD about this deal he lost in a bakeoff, and his words screaming out of the closed doors were "fuck [insert name of bank], i aboslutely HATE TO LOSE!"
life as a banker is tough, and the early years could be more monotonous than flying an aircraft. Like some previous posters mentioned, if you have a family, it could be tougher...
You can rationalize the numbers all you want, but they don't tell the whole story. If you're dissatisfied, nothing's going to change.
Better yet, if the numbers are that great and you're still dissatisfied and thinking of leaving, then something's definitely not right with the job. I say get out before you get stuck on that career track, but keep an open mind and look at options beyond finance.
Don't listen to all of these people. DO IT! Chase your fucking dreams.
What's the point of sacrificing your dreams for some guaranteed comfort? You get one damn chance. If you're sure that you want to be in finance and you have a passion for it, then don't you dare let yourself live with the regret of having to look back and say "what if..." You have an awesome background, you'er clearly not a dumb guy, you owe yourself much better than that.
Let's say you stay in your industry and you make it to the top, in the end you wind up with $3-5 million, ok it's better than most people that's for sure.
Let's say you give that at all up and chase your dreams. Worst case scenario, you don't make it big in finance and you wind up with a total of $1.5 million after some smart money management. Were things really that much different than the first case? No, and at least you can look back and know that you didn't leave anything on the table.
Now scenario 2, you enter finance and do make it big. Then the sky's the limit and every single day you're thanking yourself that you made the move.
Sure finance is painful. It's no walk in the park. I would question whether you really know what you would be getting yourself into. I would question if you're ready become a glorified whore for the next X years. However, if you really do have that passion and you know it's for you, then I can't imagine not chasing that dream. You have one damn chance, don't "settle" for anything, get out there and make the most of it.
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