Associate or Analyst after MBA without workex?

wamartinu's picture
Rank: Baboon | 132

So I know this guy who's got accepted into HBS straight after undergrad, with 0 work experience, although he had a few internships under his belt. If he wants to get into BB IBD, will he get in as an associate or analyst? It would be sweet if he does get in as assocaite. Bypassing 2-3 years of work experience... how cool is that.

Comments (104)

Apr 29, 2010

Kid must have some beeeastly stats.

"I do not think there is any other quality so essential to success of any kind as the quality of perseverance. It overcom

Apr 29, 2010

Most likely analyst since he'll have a hard time justifying the leap into associate. But maybe having the HBS brand name will help him.

Apr 29, 2010

a few people every year go directly from wharton UG to wharton MBA

Apr 29, 2010

that kid

damn it feels good to be a gangsta

Apr 29, 2010

Was he Harvard undergrad? They have a program called 2+2 for this very purpose.

Apr 29, 2010

The first "2" in 2+2 stands for 2 years work experience...

Apr 29, 2010

no. he went to Princeton, has a 4.0 GPA in Politics and internships with NATO, gov agency, and some tech startup. he joined HBS in 2009, a few months after graduating. He applied in his senior year through normal admission, not 2+2.

Apr 29, 2010

I would think he would go in as an associate.

There's an increasing push for HBS to pull in younger admits... supposedly focused around younger women though so they can get their MBA and get the career ball rolling before its time to pop a few kids out.

Apr 29, 2010

.

Apr 29, 2010

if he does go in as an associate the guy is the biggest baller EVER. Getting an associate position, 2 years after undergrad, being paid accordingly, avoiding 2 years of analyst hell + 2 years of PE or whatever. He's gonna be VP and with an MBA, when his colleagues just finish their 3rd year. If you do get in as an associate, that has got to be the way to go.

Apr 29, 2010
wamartinu:

if he does go in as an associate the guy is the biggest baller EVER. Getting an associate position, 2 years after undergrad, being paid accordingly, avoiding 2 years of analyst hell + 2 years of PE or whatever. He's gonna be VP and with an MBA, when his colleagues just finish their 3rd year. If you do get in as an associate, that has got to be the way to go.

Not that "baller". I know more than one person who made VP after 5 years... and they didn't pay 80-120K a year for two years to facilitate that. Its doable if you're an all-star and move around to get promotions.

2 Years HBS + 3 Years Associate = 5 Years
2 Years Analyst + 3 Years Associate = 5 Years

Essentially you just have to get bumped to associate instead of 3rd year analyst or get bumped to VP after 2 years as an associate.

Obviously you don't have a Harvard MBA, but the cost of that MBA is nearly $500K (2 yrs lost income @ $150K / yr, 2 yrs @ HBS 80-120K/yr).

Apr 29, 2010

He may start as a 3rd year analyst or something. In any case he'll have to spend some time doing analyst work - for any associate you need to have some capability of doing analyst work in order to check over what they do.

Apr 29, 2010

It's not that baller. If you don't go straight into an Associate position with an Ivy leage MBA, you best call the school an ask for a refund! Graduating from community college and going straight into Associate is balling. Graduating from an Ivy League, it's a reasonable expectation.

Apr 30, 2010

Most banks specify two years work exp on postings at HBS.
Plenty of kids get dinged for not having worked enough.
May be different if you are a geniune rockstar.

Apr 30, 2010

I like the shortening of work experience to workex

like capex

well done

Apr 30, 2010

there's no way he gets an associate job (maybe at a small crappy boutique). any top-tier bank would want him to work at least a year or two as an analyst. think about it, how is he going to be able to come in and start managing 2nd and 3rd year analysts? and with his zero full-time work experience, would you trust to throw him in front of your clients? why would any place (unless you can't find any strong candidates and are desperate) take a chance on a guy when there are tons of other HBS grads who did had previous work experience (even if it wasn't in banking).

Apr 30, 2010

It would be Associate role in the highly unlikely scenario that you were to receive an offer via this route.

Apr 30, 2010

the norm is to get work experience then go back to school

Apr 30, 2010

What I meant was what is the norm for the kind of route described in the opening post

Apr 30, 2010

And what if one specifically applies for an analyst position?

Apr 30, 2010

You would likely not be hired...

Apr 30, 2010

Just to make a point: Tony James, John Paulson, Michael Bloomberg etc. were all UG --> MBA guys, to say that they all screwed up their education is kind of hilarious. . .

Apr 30, 2010
SpaceMarine:

Just to make a point: Tony James, John Paulson, Michael Bloomberg etc. were all UG --> MBA guys, to say that they all screwed up their education is kind of hilarious. . .

It used to be not uncommon to do that. Nowadays it is fairly rare and mostly stupid to do. Times have changed.

Apr 30, 2010

If you are looking to go to graduate school right after UG and you want to come in as an analyst then why would you not look at top masters programs? That seems to be the more conventional route for kids that couldn't get analyst jobs right out of UG and want another chance to go through recruitment without wasting their MBA.

Apr 30, 2010

The issue is not 22 v 24 or MBA v no MBA. The issue is banks recruiting structure. They hire on a very clear path with 2 entry points: undergrads for analysts and MBAs for associates. While obviously sometimes exceptions are made for various reasons, that is not the norm.

I was in a rather non-traditional spot myself at one point, and had a recruiter tell me that while I was a great candidate, I was a square peg and their recruiting process was a round whole (insert thats what she said joke). That's the issue you face.

Apr 30, 2010

I'm 95% sure you will be hired as an analyst if you are 23-24 with an MBA.

This is especially if the case is you did some kind of 3 year UG 2 year MBA combo all at once.

Apr 30, 2010

Not to straight up disagree but I know of 1 3+2 who was hired as an associate at a MM IB. I just can't see a recruiter being willing to bend on this unless op is really that wonderful.

Apr 30, 2010

@"CountryUnderdog" Does Columbia allow people without experience into their MBA program? I know schools like MIT and Duke do. From talking to an alumni (who went straight to his MBA), I believe he said standard recruiting is the same (for consulting, IB), but for anything else, experience really matters so many jobs weren't available to him. It's been a while and someone can definitely correct me if I'm wrong.

Apr 30, 2010

In re CBS, the only people I know without any experience are JD/MBAs. I think it would be pretty hard to get into CBS without any experience, but I guess if you had killer stats and a logical why now for an MBA I guess it could happen.

Apr 30, 2010

And for those of you bashing people who go straight to their MBA from undergrad, it is done much more commonly than our close minded online brains think. Some top schools have about 10% of students come with no experience. I only know of one person as I mentioned before, and it would be nice to learn about other people and their stories. Must have been pretty amazing.

Apr 30, 2010

There's 3 people in this situation in my MBA class (straight from undergrad) and they recruit in the normal MBA level pipelines. They are compared against their MBA peers, and their lack of experience DOES make things more difficult.

That said, all 3 got internships and are headed to MBA level jobs. It's a higher hurdle, but people clear it every year. I can't comment on what would happen if they applied for a UG level position though; my guess would be they'd get the analyst/equivalent role with a pay bump (had this happen to a friend back in undergrad who did a 3+2 program for General Mills). She had an accelerated promotion path, and then when she jumped to another company got compensated at the same level as more experienced MBA peers.

Apr 30, 2010

Thanks for all your helpful responses!

As I can read from the majority of your posts: IF one does MBA straight from UG, then one should ideally target associate positions, since it would be a more logical path to go, both for you and for HR. Nevertheless it's fairly unconventional today and can cause trouble, because it doesn't fit well into the HR system.

But I understand the potential issues regarding the recruiting structure of firms and I'll do some further research on that.

Best.

Apr 30, 2010

I think the key here is that getting the MBA right after college has 0 value add and prevents you from obtaining it/using it when you truly need it (when you need a career switch) and when you can learn a lot from the degree.

Apr 30, 2010

I only know of one person that did this and ended up in finance (PWM specifically) and they went in as an analyst.

Apr 30, 2010

Get your MBA. You wouldn't want to be a 28 year old analyst.

Apr 30, 2010

thanks nystateofmind. but, post-MBA, what about my chances of being hired as an associate with no i-banking experience? should i be concerned about that?

Apr 30, 2010

There is nothing that you will learn as analyst that you won't pick up in 2 years at b-school and your associate training program. Why would you want to spend the next two years (at age 28) being miserable at the bottom when you can enter as an associate and be slightly less miserable and only slight less at the bottom. Being an analyst is absolutely not a pre-requesite for landing a BB associate gig. I have several friends with liberal arts backgrounds and non-finance backgrounds who went to top 10 b-schools and all got BB associate offers.

28 is a good age to attend b-school (but I wouldn't wait much longer). Your only problem will be demonstrating why an MBA and why an entrepreneur would want to pursue the highly structured hierarchial world of banking?

Good luck

Apr 30, 2010

gotcha, thanks junkbondswap.

Apr 30, 2010

You don't need any IB or finance experience to land a full time associate position out of B-school. If you want to do IB, make sure to do it for your summer and get an offer. I have known associates who have come from advertising, engineers, etc. with absolutely no idea what they are doing.

Apr 30, 2010

This is why people talk about the hell that is a fresh 1st year associate, by stroke of very bad luck, being staffed up with a fresh first year analyst. Neither one is expected to know anything, and often won't - the proportion of analysts who actually do come back to do an associate stint is fairly small. 2 or 3 years of shit work is just about enough for most people, and the associates really don't get out of it too much better than the analysts do. Save several years of life expectancy and take the MBA and the associate gig, prior experience is certainly helpful but extremely far from essential.

Apr 30, 2010

everyone, thanks for your feedback. I really appreciate it. these were the kinds of answers I was secretly hoping for (in that analysts really get taxed hard (much respect to them!)).

I will shift my focus to nailing the GMAT for now :)

Apr 30, 2010

You still have to get solid working experience before getting into banking. Most BBs do their heaviest recruiting at the top 10 B-schools and getting into these are no joke.

Apr 30, 2010

One thing you should be aware of is that round 2 deadlines (aka, the last round where non-olympic athletes and other superstars actually have a shot) are fast approaching. Not sure when the next GMAT is, but unless you can take it in the next couple weeks and nail it on the first try you are probably not going to be able to start b-school until Fall 2009.

"When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead."

Apr 30, 2010

MBA's start as associates so yes, they skip analyst years.

Apr 30, 2010

gotta specify that you need experience before your MBA... I am not too sure that you would be able to sell a bank on coming in as an Associate if you just went straight from UG to an MBA, and with that the top MBA programs likely wouldn't take you

Apr 30, 2010

Based on friends' experiences, they finished their MBA and got into IB with no IB experience. As such, they had to take analyst roles after their MBA. However, they still had prior work/life experience that allowed them to approach their job with more maturity and confidence than their undergrad peers (in most cases), presumably qualities that will allow them to move up to associate more quickly.

Apr 30, 2010

Top 40 program?

Seems a bit of a stretch to me, anything outside of M7 schools are generally frowned upon. Of course, if you're looking to be an associate at an MM in IB (e.g., HLHZ, HW, Goldsmith - not Lazard, as they have been shamlessly promoting, others....), than the degree should suffice.

Apr 30, 2010

So you're saying an MBA at a top 40 will be fine for an associate position at a MM bank?

What about for an analyst position? Do you have to have a BA from a superstar school?

Apr 30, 2010

I think Goldsmith is a tight place, and now banking on the lazard name will certainly earn them an edge over their main MM competitors. I have interviewed with five MM banks and I have been the most impressed by Goldsmith and will likely sign with them.

Apr 30, 2010

I don't think top 40 is good enough for the top MMs, but I'd say it is good enough to get you a job somewhere. Top MMs have less stringent requirements, but still target more or less the same schools. I'd say a top 20 MBA would be a significant jump, with top 10 really putting you in "safe" territory.

A lot of middle market banks list profiles for all of their professionals so it makes it easy to see where you stand. If you really want to know and a company doesn't list Associates, sometimes VPs will be a good indicator as to what the associate pool looks like.

Harris Williams:
http://www.harriswilliams.com/professionals/assoc.php
Edgeview:
http://www.edgeviewpartners.com/professionals
McColl Partners:
http://www.mccollpartners.com/professionals.html

Apr 30, 2010

Thank you for the info. It looks like many of the analysts at Edgeview have a BA from a non-target school.

What about if one were to get a BA and an MBA at a non-target school (ie. University of Washington is one that I'm researching). Is this more than enough to enter as, at least, an analyst?

Apr 30, 2010

u. of washington is a fairly well respected school last i checked? with high gpa BA no problem to be an analyst. assume you are talking about a joint BA/MBA program...but to come in as an analyst then? not sure how that works, you should definitely do your DD on that. might be wasting benefit of MBA (which is really just resume refresher and networking) and time.

Apr 30, 2010

It is well respected - just not a top school.

I wonder if I should get a BA at University of Washington > Analyst for 2 years > MBA > Associate.

Opinions?

Apr 30, 2010

UWash is decent, but you shoot for a better school if you can. There are other state schools (UM, UVA, etc) that offer better placement from undergrad.

Apr 30, 2010

And if I can't get into anything better? How does my aforementioned outline look?

Apr 30, 2010

I guess what I'm really asking is: at the very least can I easily get an analyst position with a BA + MBA at a school such as the UW.

Apr 30, 2010

Why on earth would you want to get your MBA and be an analyst? Go to a slightly better school for undergrad and you can get an analyst gig out w/o getting your MBA. If you do decide to get your MBA, you should be jockeying for associate positions or you wasted your time.

Apr 30, 2010

I think you are little confused as to the progression.

You only get into analyst programs from undergrad. From what I understand, you should only be concerned with analyst recruiting, since you are asking about UWash undergrad. If you want to know about how easily you can get analyst role from UWash, the answer is easier than other state schools, harder than others. UWash offers the benefit of some on-campus recruiting since they have a solid finance program, but you still need to excel there to have a shot at the job.

You shouldn't even be thinking about your MBA until after your analyst stint + more. Even then you should only be considering the top 10 programs.

Apr 30, 2010

Thanks guys. I hear what you're saying and my ideal path would definitely be the one noted above:

BA at University of Washington > Analyst for 2 years > MBA > Associate

I just don't know that I can get in to anything better than UW. If I do go there, I'll be trying to get above a 3.7 - but I'm worried that a 3.7 at UW may pale in comparison to other candidates who came from better schools.

In my favor, though, I'll have decent work experience as I did 6 months FT at a web marketing firm and am now going part time indefinitely at the same firm.

Of course I'll be applying to other places, but this will be from an AA transfer degree from a community college. So far I have perfect grades here, and I intend to keep them that way.

Apr 30, 2010

To the top. I really appreciate all input so far.

Apr 30, 2010

Nope. Only a PhD/MBA/ grad school with prior work experience gets you an Associate role.

Illinois has a good MBA program. We might take you straight outta school.

Apr 30, 2010
IlliniProgrammer:

Nope. Only a PhD/MBA/ grad school with prior work experience gets you an Associate role.

Illinois has a good MBA program. We might take you straight outta school.

So your telling me if i got into Harvard MBA outta Undergrad they will hire me as analyst even if i'm top of class ! I am a fast learned there has to be a way to leapfrog the analyst postion with proper guidance

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Apr 30, 2010

All the aforementioned business schools would most likely not even admit you because you have no work experience so your question is moot.

Apr 30, 2010
bearing:

All the aforementioned business schools would most likely not even admit you because you have no work experience so your question is moot.

I actually saw someone that was admitted from undergrad to Harvard who is pursuing an MBA & i assume if you do well you should be able make associate since analyst pay is typically under what Harvard grads typically make

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Apr 30, 2010

Before dignifying this post with a response, have you been accepted to HBS, Wharton MBA program, SBS?

If you could get into those, you probably could get an IB position.

If you could get into those, you will get any interview you want.

Apr 30, 2010

Don't plan your life out that far in advance. Just focus on getting into the best UG you can first. You can get into a top MBA from most decent UG schools if you work hard and perform well enough.

Apr 30, 2010

no bank would ever hire an associate from any MBA program (harvard or central iowa) without any previous work experience, you probably wouldn't even get hired as an analyst because they bank wouldn't want a wierd dynamic between all the normal analysts (without MBAs) and you.

Apr 30, 2010

Its def possible - i did it. Had previous work experience but no i-banking experience. Landed an associate position after graduating with my MBA in Finance

Apr 30, 2010
Chrix:

Its def possible - i did it. Had previous work experience but no i-banking experience. Landed an associate position after graduating with my MBA in Finance

What happened to you happens all the time. Many career changers go from an MBA to an associate role in banking without pre-MBA banking experience. That's not what he's asking about.

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Apr 30, 2010

my bad

Apr 30, 2010

Given[/embed] that you're at UMich, Let's get you into HBS first, then we can worry about getting you a job as an associate.

Apr 30, 2010

usually no but of course everything is possible. You normally need some type of relevant finance exp

Apr 30, 2010

Sounds like someones been prepping

rufiolove:

When evaluating whether or not to post something on WSO, I think to myself, "would an idiot post this" and if the answer is yes, I do not post that thing...

Apr 30, 2010
mdv11:

My brother has been recruited directly as an Associate right out of B-School.
He said the key is too prepare yourself to be good on the job with programs such as Wall Street Prep or BIWS.
SO you can avoid beeing to much challenged by experienced analys

For the seventh time, that is not what OP is asking.

Most MBAs straight out of MBA programs get recruited as associates. All of them have at least two years of prior work experience.

A master's degree typically gives you one year of seniority. A PhD, however, will typically get you hired as an associate (generally as a quant).

Apr 30, 2010

Curious would they count Summer 10 week Banking internships such as ( Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan Etc.) as valid work experience ? Like if you were able to do two of them with two different firms or even just one.

Apr 30, 2010
ChasingGoals:

Curious would they count Summer 10 week Banking internships such as ( Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan Etc.) as valid work experience ? Like if you were able to do two of them with two different firms or even just one.

It counts as great experience, but not true work experience. You'd still likely have trouble with recruiting.

I've heard stories of people having trouble with programs like the YSOM Silver Scholars -- things like this seem to really fuck with the track system. Why are you so set on going straight to business school when you appear to be interested in finance?

EDIT: It seems like many post-MBA career-switchers would kill for a time machine to go back and do the typical analyst + buyside + MBA experience instead of coming in straight as an associate. Don't be so quick to jump into things. Going the normal route gives you far more options.

Apr 30, 2010
ChasingGoals:

Curious would they count Summer 10 week Banking internships such as ( Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan Etc.) as valid work experience ? Like if you were able to do two of them with two different firms or even just one.

You need work experience to get into top MBA programs, unless you are applying for the 2+2 program or an MBA that is not worth the money.

Here is an idea for you, how about you listen to what the experienced people are trying to tell you rather than trying to contrive a way where you could "skip the hard part." You wouldn't get hired as an Associate this way, I can promise you. Illini is being straightforward with you. Your attitude towards analysts suggests that some work experience would do you well. Your condescension wouldn't fly with analysts if you could even get an Associate job they way you wish you could (spoiler alert, you can't) because the Analysts will be far better than you for the duration of the time they spend at the bank. A fresh out of business school Associate, from what I have seen in working with Summer Associates and new Full Time hires is typically worse even than a Summer Analyst. This is not always the case, but more often than not they have this false air of entitlement and an attitude that they are above doing Analyst work (they aren't). The only prayer you would have as post b school Associate with no prior experience in banking is that your good Senior Analysts help you learn things on the job, but your entire first year you will not be as valuable as a Senior Analyst, this is not hubris, it is simply fact. The sooner you can get out of your own way, show a little humility and an aptitude for doing work and helping cover for your Senior Analysts, the better off you will be.

Cliff notes: You will need some work exp to get hired as an Associate; ditch the attitude because it won't get you anywhere.

Apr 30, 2010

You can skip the analyst program with a MBA 10 or 20 years ago, but not any more. A few places will allow you to skip one year so that you will start as a 2nd Year Analyst.

Apr 30, 2010

I think that unless you are a super quant it is impossible to get an Associate spot straight out of undergrad. I know some dudes who were English majors and worked at the Peacecore and then went to B-school and the grades plus a good story about why you are passionate about IBanking will get you past the 1st round. Then it is up to you to close the deal. Banks are looking for smart people who can do DCFs etc and are willing to do 90 hour weeks. But if you've never had full-time job, you would have to be something really special for them to blink at that.

Apr 30, 2010

They would be hired as 1st year associates...although there is always some room for negotiation albeit very little

Apr 30, 2010
Comment

I'm making it up as I go along.

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