Barclays vs. Morgan Stanley
Which is better for IBD New York? How is Barclays' integration of Lehman coming along?
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MS
depends...for bank debt stuff, prob barclays...for IB, MS all the way (no british bank will crack the top 3...esp with the crackdown on pay that's occurring)...
BARCLAYS ALL THE WAY, they have the biggest electronic stock ticker in NY.
Dn't listen to the troll. MS is #1 in leagues this quarter for M&A like always and is top 3 bank usually. Barclays is usually a top 10 or top 15 bank. Eiffel is right, all british banks will take a huge hit with their crappy socialist laws. People are already jumping ship from Barclays and RBS.
MS is a sinking ship, Barclays is up and coming after they scalped Lehman for just their IBD division. The integration is going fine. Plus they had little exposure to all the subprime mortgage debt. Barclays is now at least a top 5 bank, anyone who says otherwise obviously has no solid info on Barclays.
Lmao @ PJC. U don't even get soiled!
Yea can we ban this kid already? Purposely giving false information goes against the purpose of these forums. At least his username foreshadows his crappy posts.
so says a blow up sex doll fembotma
he's just jealous that he couldn't even get bank of ameria ops
He didn't actually give false information.
He is correct that:
a) MS has not been doing well b) BarCap probably is in the top 5 in the US now c) BarCap had minimal subprime exposure
The problems with the above are:
a) Calling MS a sinking ship is hyperbolic, and ignores the fact that their under performance has come mostly in securities and not in IBD, where they came closer than they have in years to topping GS in the league tables b) BarCap may be top 5, but that is irrelevant when MS is top 2 c) Subprime exposure may impact the financial health of a bank, but has relatively little to do with the strength of its IBD
drexelalum11 -
a) MS is #1 in league tables. b) Where? In league tables? How are you gathering top 5?
MS is a sure bet. They're going to do well even if there is a rocky road in the short term
Barclays is still a question mark and no one knows how many people might leave after bonuses are paid.
Even if you assume that Barclays is Lehman (which it isn't), then MS was always better than Lehman in any case.
all else being equal it is a no brainer to me.
Also, with regards to pay, it seems that most banks are planning to absorb the bonus taxes or at least that's the impression I got from this article in the FT: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/caffc078-fc97-11de-bc51-00144feab49a.html?ncl…
Great point Nomade... thanks. My decision has been made. BarCap is a nice bank but things don't seem to be organized here in the US. The compensation is a nightmare as well.
if you're going to bring up league tables, pulling up just one quarter is sort of silly.
openOutcry - look at all of 2009 in US and World
yeah just saying because here (fembotma) and some other threads i've noticed people mentioning how great a bank has been doing for one quarter. wasn't trying to knock MS with that comment.
MS being #1 depends on if you're looking at volume or fees, and which provider you look at, as they calculate it differently.
I was referring to BarCap being top 5 in terms of BB prestige; there are banks that are in the top 5 in league tables or ahead of BarCap (C, BAC, UBS, etc), but would you really go to one of those over BarCap?
I don't think your choice should be made only on 1 Q rankings. look at the way work is organised at ms and barcap! where do you think you will be better treated (in terms of salaries, work culture and opportunities to climb up as fast as possible)
right now it seems to me that ms is better , but it depends on pple!
i think the ms name is still very very strong in the us, stronger than barcap
They're both good banks but their strength are in different areas. Barcap being in fixed income products (debt issues, cbs, derivs, etc) and in banking (the traditional lehman strong groups)
MS M&A, Healthcare and Tech are still stronger hands down
Aside from their various business strengths, what are your takes on their culture?
MS is obviously a no brainer.
Barclays is not a top 5, gtfo with that crap. No one would choose Barcap over BAML. If you count boutiques like evercore and lazard, Barcap is like top 15 in the U.S. If you discount boutiques, you got GS, MS, BAML and JPM who obviously take up the first 4. Citi is always up there too and then it's a tossup between all the foreign banks. Barclays is far from being lehman. Barclays was not bulge before 2008 and now it is a lower one. I repeat, it is far from being a top BB.
League tables are not the end all be all, but constant low showings on U.S. league tables in addition to their previous poor reputation means there is no way you can compare barcap to BAML and Citi. One word: Dealflow. Top 5 banks have it, Barcap doesn't.
Also it's British. Fuck the brits and what they're doing to banking.
Your argument is sound, but Barcap is actually doing well in the US. Please point me to the league tables you are seeing. Barclays: 2009 Completed Deals Rank 5, 2009 Announced Deals Rank 6. Source: Thomson Reuters
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BarCap instead of MS. BarCap is one of the winners and MS one of the losers. Its business model (i.e. universal), the fact that BarCap is well established in the US (due to the Lehman acquisition) and its potential to become one of the word's leading investment banks (rapidly expanding in Europe) are reasons to work for BarCap instead of MS.
If you compare BarCap with BoA/ML again you should go for BarCap, BoA/ML has a lot of problems these days. Banks which are better in the US are GS and JPM. Banks which are better in Europe are GS, JPM and CS. Deutsche is equal in my opinion.
these posters who say MS is a loser are smoking crack...if you want to end up in PE 2 years down the road go to MS (M&A, etc)...there's just enough brand risk with Barclays, that your resume won't look as good as one from MS (unless you were in one of the lending groups interfacing with sponsors)....Barclays will end up doing fine, but to say they've rebuilt the LEH platform is a complete joke
^Exactly. And I also use Thomson Reuters for U.S. and i'm pretty sure barcap is nowhere near top 5, since top 5 is GS/MS/BAML/JPM/Citi.
Kid below me: Yeah ok we'll "believe" you. Sorry you work at barcap bro. Sry about your BAML rejection.
To 1stYearBanker - I had a BAML offer and turned them down. Good try though. Stop talking like BAML is GS or Blackstone. BAML and "prestige" are mutually exclusive.
Long term approach guys, believe me BarCap instead of MS.
AHAHAHAHAHAHAH didn't realize that BAML was the second coming of UBS LA. I attended networking sessions at BAML and got the impression that the integration wasn't going all that well but if you use league tables as a proxy for performance, they're doing quite well. To 1styearbanker, I'd venture to say that you'd find a decent number of people who would take Barcap over BAML. For example, if you're interested in Nat Res, FIG, or Comm/Media, what bank would YOU select out of those two?
Dagobert, as for the "long-term approach", I can see some of the logic behind that however you have to remember that most people who enter banking are looking to do their 2-3 years and move on to greener pastures. While Barcap does seem to have a decent future, no one that posts on WSO will probably be around to enjoy it. Frankly, MS carries a stronger brand name from years of excellent performance and offers far better placement into brand name buy-side jobs (check out the various websites of megafunds if you don't believe me lol).
where did you like the people more? if there is a significant difference there, go with the place with the people you hit it off with.
here's some insider info, 1styearbanker works at BAML lol! sry your so insecure bro. I would personally choose MS over Barcap, but Barcap is still a top BB according to league tables - 5-6 according to reuters and 4-5 according to Bloomberg. i would definately pick barcap over BAML becuase it integrated a lot better (according to BAML's own) and has way more growth potential esp in M&A. baml never really used to be a competitive BB until the ML acq. so in that regard its on the same field as barcap. however, all baml does is use their balance sheet, whereas barcap actually has high profile m&a deals. and please dont EVER compare baml to GS or MS even if you do work for them....
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BAML's integration has improved significantly in the past few months - the worst is definitely over, so if you're joining in 2010+, things should be a lot more stable. For IBD, it's not at GS/MS level yet, but definitely comparable to JPM. Barcap is doing well too - both should continue to improve as their integrations solidify.
To answer the original question, all else being equal, MS > Barcap for IBD, especially in NYC. Better name, better deal flow, better exit opps.
i agree, lets just keep this thread ms vs barcap. i find i pretty damn sad that 1styearbanker tries to hijack every banking thread on WSO to promote baml and tries ever so relentlessly to compare it to MS/GS/JPM and every time its an epic failure. get a life-just goes to show the kind of "deal flow" baml has when a first year analyst there has nothing better to do than promote the bank on every forum. baml is in the top 10-15, i think most will agree, but stfu abt it.
Why is it that these threads always turn into a dick swinging contest.
BAML and BarCap are comparable. Period. One is not substantially ahead of the other in the US.
bankbuster: "all baml does is throw their balance sheet around" What in the world do you think BarCap does. Just because their deposit base is in the UK rather than the US doesn't mean they aren't throwing around the balance sheet as well. Every universal bank does. If you have ever interviewed/met with them, the first thing they'll say is oh its great because we have Lehmans people and Barclay's balance sheet. They are not working on any more high profile M&A deals than BAML. Additionally, because they don't have a separate M&A group and instead designate M&A analysts within the industry groups (which is almost exclusively given to returning summers). Therefore M&A exposure across the industries is nonexistent.
Saying "I've turned down BAML" or I know people that turned down BAML is not a good response. I myself turned down BarCap - twice. Once for the summer and again for full-time.
OP: The group you go into is more important. BarCap has a good NatRes group but that group is really based in Houston. I've also heard good things about their Communications Media Group. If you think you'll end up at a weak group in MS, but a good group at BarCap, then you should consider Barcap.
As an institution, I think MS will provide you greater opportunity, but if you don't get good deal flow, it won't matter. Same thing goes for GS. I know for fact the NatRes group at GS only sent one of their analysts to PE this year. The rest are staying as third years and It's not all by choice. Brand isn't everything.
Grow up children. There's more to life than comparing prestige. Go to the firm you think you'll get the best experience and have the most people looking out for you.
PS I'm pretty sure 1st year banker is not a banker at BAML
The legacy ML network (which all incoming first years were put on) blocks WSO. Unless he's a legacy BofA second year or responding on his IPhone, it's not possible
Good call. 1styearbanker is a good troll. He claims that he works at BAML/promotes BAML in literally EVERY thread, which is very suspicious.
hybrid, i for the most part agree with you. barcap and baml are comparable to some extent. i interviewed at both and baml relies a lot more on their balance sheet as told to me by their VPs. but it pisses me off when a first year analyst at a bank like baml takes every chance to compare it to the top 2-3 banks in the US. its just isnt that good, period. and neither is barcap. and 1styearbanker does work at baml- he said it so himself when someone else called him out on another thread when he was again sucking the small dick that is baml
You kids need to relax, BAML is doing very well and that's all I'm saying. It's also true that MS > barcap, which was the original topic idea.
PS: I have an iphone ty, ML legacy. And I don't need to prove anything to you kids, only a select few mature posters know my situation, such as Miss Ind.
BAML is just a watered down JPM ... they have balance sheet so they'll get in on deals and some decent historic relationships. It's not a bad bank by any measure but the cultural issues are apparent
What are the top groups at MS? The offer for BarCap is in NY, and it seems their only "top" group is Nat Res so the decision is becoming much easier.
Besides M&A, what is MS's top group?
^GPUG and Sponsors are strong as well
Barlcays FIG used to be good - many of their senior guys left to go to Citi / Evercore
Media Telecom fired 1/2 their team - so not that graet
DCM does well
Based on what I know
Top groups at MS: M&A, FSG, Media & Communications, FIG, HC, Tech (Menlo Park), RE Top groups at Barcap: Nat Res, Power, Retail, Communications & Media, DCM. FIG and Consumer are also good.
Both are great banks, but MS is probably the way to go unless you're set on doing Nat Res, Retail, or DCM
Barclays is still the best of them all, no other bank can compare. Definitely not comparable BoA-ML. Definitely go for Barclays if it's for TMT, they are definitely ELITE in that space.
In my opinion MS is by far better than BarCap on your resume (and I'm not even looking at league tables that much, just general prestige). So if you are looking for nice exit opportunities after a few years, go for MS.
On the other hand, I agree that BarCap could offer some growth opportunities, a bit like Nomura in Europe (they acquired the European part of Lehman). So if you see yourself going into IB for the long run, it's no so clear cut...
If you are in it for the long run, keep in mind that not too many people go all the way up from analyst to MD, so MS might still be better... Good luck with your choice, and congrats on your offers.
ms
simple choice
or 1st year banker got laid off and is replying on his home comp
^^^ I actually think he works at a legit bank, but just hates BAML for watever reasons. He keeps "promoting" BAML so that it will actually make the firm look negative.
Legit bank like jeffries?
^^^ no, definitely not Jefferies. maybe Gridley & Co or Grief & Co, more along those lines
Barclays Capital Markets vs. Morgan Stanley Capital Markets (Originally Posted: 09/27/2010)
How does Morgan Stanley's capital markets compare with Barclays Capital's capital markets?
Is Morgan Stanley capital markets MS's dominant groups?
Any insight would be great.
Both great operations. Pick whichever one where you like the people better (very diff cultures).
Morgan Stanley Said to Freeze Investment-Bank Hiring
Sept. 27 (Bloomberg) -- Morgan Stanley, the sixth-largest U.S. bank by assets, froze hiring at its investment-banking division for the rest of 2010, a person briefed on the decision said.
The firm ruled out layoffs through the end of the year, the person said, speaking anonymously because the matter hasn’t been publicly disclosed. Jim Wiggins, a spokesman for Morgan Stanley, declined to comment on the hiring freeze. He said the company intends to hire brokers for the Smith Barney unit, a joint venture with Citigroup Inc.
The freeze, which includes the New York-based firm’s sales and trading units, comes as weak trading and equity underwriting volume may lead the five largest Wall Street banks to post their lowest revenue from investment banking and trading since the fourth quarter of 2008. Bank of America Corp. is firing as many as 400 employees in its global banking and markets division, a person briefed on the matter said last week.
Companies including Barclays Capital and Credit Suisse Group AG also have started reducing staff in Europe. Securities firms around the world will cut as many as 80,000 jobs in the next 18 months as revenue growth begins to slow, bank analyst Meredith Whitney of Meredith Whitney Advisory Group LLC said in a report dated Aug. 31.
Seven analysts including Richard Staite at Atlantic Equities LLP in London cut third-quarter earnings estimates for Morgan Stanley in the last two weeks, citing weak trading in the quarter. The average estimate is 43 cents a share, down from 57 cents, according to 20 analysts in a Bloomberg survey.
Morgan Stanley added about 400 employees to its sales and trading business since June 2009. The firm’s headcount was 62,926 at the end of June, up 3 percent from a year earlier.
Morgan Stanley declined 5 cents, or 0.2 percent, to $25.10 at 3:09 p.m. in New York Stock Exchange composite trading. The shares are down 15 percent this year.
Fox Business News reported the decision to freeze hiring earlier today.
To contact the reporter on this story: Michael J. Moore in New York at [email protected] .
To contact the editor responsible for this story: Alec McCabe at [email protected] .
Find out more about Bloomberg for iPhone: http://m.bloomberg.com/iphone/
[quote=GutShot]Morgan Stanley Said to Freeze Investment-Bank Hiring
Sept. 27 (Bloomberg) -- Morgan Stanley, the sixth-largest U.S. bank by assets, froze hiring at its investment-banking division for the rest of 2010, a person briefed on the decision said.
The firm ruled out layoffs through the end of the year, the person said, speaking anonymously because the matter hasn’t been publicly disclosed. Jim Wiggins, a spokesman for Morgan Stanley, declined to comment on the hiring freeze. He said the company intends to hire brokers for the Smith Barney unit, a joint venture with Citigroup Inc.
The freeze, which includes the New York-based firm’s sales and trading units, comes as weak trading and equity underwriting volume may lead the five largest Wall Street banks to post their lowest revenue from investment banking and trading since the fourth quarter of 2008. Bank of America Corp. is firing as many as 400 employees in its global banking and markets division, a person briefed on the matter said last week.
Companies including Barclays Capital and Credit Suisse Group AG also have started reducing staff in Europe. Securities firms around the world will cut as many as 80,000 jobs in the next 18 months as revenue growth begins to slow, bank analyst Meredith Whitney of Meredith Whitney Advisory Group LLC said in a report dated Aug. 31.
Seven analysts including Richard Staite at Atlantic Equities LLP in London cut third-quarter earnings estimates for Morgan Stanley in the last two weeks, citing weak trading in the quarter. The average estimate is 43 cents a share, down from 57 cents, according to 20 analysts in a Bloomberg survey.
Morgan Stanley added about 400 employees to its sales and trading business since June 2009. The firm’s headcount was 62,926 at the end of June, up 3 percent from a year earlier.
Morgan Stanley declined 5 cents, or 0.2 percent, to $25.10 at 3:09 p.m. in New York Stock Exchange composite trading. The shares are down 15 percent this year.
Fox Business News reported the decision to freeze hiring earlier today.
To contact the reporter on this story: Michael J. Moore in New York at [email protected] .
To contact the editor responsible for this story: Alec McCabe at [email protected] .
Find out more about Bloomberg for iPhone: http://m.bloomberg.com/iphone/[/quote]
Damn, MS was one of the only firms coming on campus at my school and they were recruiting for Capital Markets and IBD. They're having their networking/info session tomorrow night and now I bet they're just gonna say better luck next year. Major bummer.
Time for me to go look at MSF programs.
Not sure how true this is for analyst recruiting. MS came to my school last week and just released interviews. Seems like they're still going through with interviewing and hiring.
Regardless, does anyone else have insight into MS's capital markets? Any ideas of how they compare to other places, culture, etc.
Ok, so maybe things aren't so bad.
That news article just came out today... wait and see how things pan out, let us know!
They might be still interviewing, but hiring is something else. Those HR people have to do something with their time....
I know first hand that this hiring freeze is totally legitimate, we are starving for people on our desk right now and we cannot get anyone hired at all. Everyone that is coming in is being told that "we'll interview you for a position that we don't have yet".
I think this is the firm freaking out about this potential problem and wants to throw a few more people at the PWM side until the numbers flip in their favor.
Funny, just got off the phone with my assigned IBD HR. Exact words "It's in no way confirmed and everything is on a go forward basis," maybe the horses mouth is lying to me but nothing I can do about it.
Here are the completely UNCONFIRMED things I've heard about each:
Barclays: *Lev fin: doesn't model their own deals and are geared more toward the execution side *[Doesn't make a ton of sense seeing that coverage groups have to generate everything m&a and lbo models on top of that but whatever this is just hearsay].
MS: *Lev & acq. fin: Don't know any specifics. Some [reputable] people say solid, others say shitty, not really why.
used to be on the ms recruiting team. over the past couple of years, we would go to campus in light of firm-wide hiring freezes. more to "maintain presence" than to actually recruit. career management doesn't like it when firms cancel recruiting / interviews for any season. it was easier for us to come on campus, interview a couple of folks, but at the end of the day, not make any offers.
only exception was if we found someone exceptional. but for full-time recruiting, most of the good folks were already locked up at other firms, and those trying to trade up after the summer weren't really in consideration anyway because they usually didn't make the cut the year before.
my comments obviously pertain to full-time recruiting. taking on a couple of extra bodies for the summer is a lot easier as the firm is not committed to providing a full-time position.
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