Lying About SAT Scores for Job Application

eyedea's picture
Rank: Senior Monkey | 82

At an interview (for an internship) I was asked what my SAT score was and why I didn't provide it in my application. I was a complete slacker in high school and did horrible on the SAT, i panicked and lied about my score to the interviewer. They then asked me what I scored on each section and I said that I forgot but would let them know. Before leaving the interview, the interviewer told me they needed my SAT break up and to email them to as soon as possible. Should I continue with the lie, is it possible I will be asked to send an official copy? Or should I email my actually scores, which will show that I am a liar with an extremely low SAT score. I know this is unethical and I feel bad, but I didn't see this coming at all.

Lie About SATs during an Interview?

While SATs may seem irrelevant and dated by the time that you are applying to internships with Wall Street firms; however, some banks / firms still care about them to the point that they at least want to see how you did. If you had middling scores, you may be tempted to lie about your scores. However, our users are split on whether or not lying will work out fine in an interview or on a written application.

Generally speaking, if it is on a written application there is more of a chance that it could be checked so it is not a good idea to lie. If it is just orally communicated during an interview the chances of getting away with the fib are better. Please see our users' thoughts on the OP's original question below.

User @112107 shared that you shouldn't lie regardless:

112107:

Do not carry on with the lie. It will come back to bite you one day. You will just end up creating another lie to cover the first. Trust is the most important thing in anyone's career.

User @MidwesternBumpkin explained that the OP should correct the mistake:

MidwesternBumpkin:

It's an interview, and people make slip-ups; they may assume it was an innocent mistake, and it's not too late to correct. The interviewer may not even remember your score. They may assume you got your PSAT and SAT mixed up, or something else. This will hurt you at least as much as a botched answer to a finance question, but it may not lose you the offer.

User @jgsim detailed that once you've started the lie - you should stick to it:

jgsim:

I would send them the fake results. You're completely screwed if they find out you're lying (as someone pointed out, if they care a lot about SAT scores and yours are bad, you won't get the job anyway + you lied so you certainly won't get it). At least you have some chance with the fake results, and it's completely possible that they won't check your SAT scores.

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Comments (69)

Dec 16, 2006

well you are fucked either way, so might as well go thru with the lie...who knows they might not even check them for interns.

+ judging someone by SAT scores is plain retarded, considering that was 3-4 years ago, people change.

Disclaimer: The post above has been made by someone who is not currently employed in IBD, and has not had an interview yet...

    • 1
Dec 16, 2006

i guess go thru with the lie

Dec 16, 2006

Email your actual results to them. Do not carry on with the lie. It will come back to bite you one day. You will just end up creating another lie to cover the first. Trust is the most important thing in anyone's career.

Dec 16, 2006
xanadu:

Email your actual results to them. Do not carry on with the lie. It will come back to bite you one day. You will just end up creating another lie to cover the first. Trust is the most important thing in anyone's career.

eh, I would agree with you. However, if this is the job he really wants, he won't get it if he emails the accurate results. I certainly wouldn't give it to him.

Apr 11, 2007
tiesto:
xanadu:

Email your actual results to them. Do not carry on with the lie. It will come back to bite you one day. You will just end up creating another lie to cover the first. Trust is the most important thing in anyone's career.

eh, I would agree with you. However, if this is the job he really wants, he won't get it if he emails the accurate results. I certainly wouldn't give it to him.

Disagree. It's an interview, and people make slip-ups; they may assume it was an innocent mistake, and it's not too late to correct. The interviewer may not even remember your score. They may assume you got your PSAT and SAT mixed up, or something else. This will hurt you at least as much as a botched answer to a finance question, but it may not lose you the offer. (Did you see him write the number down?)

Also, SAT scores are just a dumb number. This is coming from someone who had the opportunity to go to any college he wanted to because of test scores. My bank asked for them and got all impressed; I had to resist the urge to roll my eyes. I'd like to be judged on my work, not on some test I took four years ago.

Dec 16, 2006
eyedea:

At an interview (for an internship) I was asked what my SAT score was and why I didn't provide it in my application. I was a complete slacker in high school and did horrible on the SAT, i panicked and lied about my score to the interviewer. They then asked me what I scored on each section and I said that I forgot but would let them know. Before leaving the interview, the interviewer told me they needed my SAT break up and to email them to as soon as possible. Should I continue with the lie, is it possible I will be asked to send an official copy? Or should I email my actually scores, which will show that I am a liar with an extremely low SAT score. I know this is unethical and I feel bad, but I didn't see this coming at all.

I wouldn't advocate lying. But to be frank, it depends on the firm.

Dec 16, 2006

i agree with tiesto, if he admits to it, they'll still axe him for lying. At least he has a flying shot if he continues with the lie.

Just apply to more than 1 bank, and if you have 2 offers, go with the one where you told the truth..just in case

Disclaimer: The post above has been made by someone who is not currently employed in IBD, and has not had an interview yet...

Dec 16, 2006

But if you get a full-time offer from the internship, they will do a background check then (if they don't do one for the internship). And you could end up with a full-time offer rescinded.

Dec 16, 2006
fp175:

But if you get a full-time offer from the internship, they will do a background check then (if they don't do one for the internship). And you could end up with a full-time offer rescinded.

but he will have an internship on his resume. you are basically recommending him NOT to go with this bank whatsoever. If he emails the correct results they will NOT hire him at all.. same thing as not responding to them at all from this point. lets build a model.

scenario 1: tells truth, gets nothing ~100%
scenario 2: tells more lies, gets nothing ~80%
scenario 3: tells more lies, gets internship, no FT ~10%
scenario 4: tells more lies, gets internship, doesnt apply to FT, has a resume builder ~10%

I am against lying. However, the goal here is to get him the internship. If he tells the truth, it will be a 100% no go. If he lies, there is a small possibility.

    • 1
Dec 16, 2006

do you really want to work for a bank that cares SO MUCH about SAT scores?

who even gives a shit

if you go to a good school, shouldn't they assume you have good test scores?

maybe i'm wrong, but in my experience, interviews involved mainly technical knowledge, fit, and plain luck.

anyways, i wish you the best of luck with the rest of the process.

keep us posted with your situation

Dec 16, 2006

I would send them the fake results. You're completely screwed if they find out you're lying (as someone pointed out, if they care a lot about SAT scores and yours are bad, you won't get the job anyway + you lied so you certainly won't get it). At least you have some chance with the fake results, and it's completely possible that they won't check your SAT scores.

By the way, I'm assuming you don't go to a top school if you have terrible SAT scores, so how did you get the interview in the first place?

SAT scores might be silly to ask for, but I was asked for them by Lehman, Morgan, Credit Suisse, and Blackstone. Possibly others that I can't even remember. They wanted a breakdown too (luckily I got the same score on both sections so it's not too hard to remember).

Dec 16, 2006

How can banks really verify your SAT scores, they are not displayed on your transcript, you cannot get official scores after 2 years from College Board, it is not public information. Your university would have them on record, can banks ask the schools for your test scores, if they are not part of your transcript?

Dec 16, 2006

College Board keeps archived scores (which you have to pay a small fee to access), so if they really want to check them, they can. I wouldn't lie unless you find yourself in a situation like the original poster (where you made one lie and now must lie again)...it could ultimately come back to haunt you. Stuff like that happens all the time..that college basketball coach (Nortre Dame maybe?) that was fired after coaching successfully for so many yeas..why..because he had on his resume that he took some summer classes at Yale or some other ivy, and someone bothered to check it out years later.

Dec 16, 2006

As much as I don't advocate lying, it seems that there is almost no way for a bank to verify your SAT score. A few ways I can think of are:

Having the College Board send the scores directly to the firm. This is impossible, as the College Board only sends scores to universities.

Getting the scores from your school. I would assume that this is also not possible, as I believe schools will only perform degree verification and nothing more. If, for example, a firm wanted access to part of your admission file (your essay, for example), they'd be told to get lost.

If you do plan on going through with this, you definitely want to make sure that SAT scores are not listed on your external transcript. This would be very bad for you, as transcripts are commonly requested to verify GPA once an offer is extended.

Some will say applicants shouldn't lie about SAT scores, and while I agree, I'd also say firms shouldn't ask for such scores when they cannot be verified in any way.

Dec 16, 2006

But the firm could directly ask for SAT score reports, provided by the applicant in the background check process. I have an offer for a job in the UK and I know British students have to send A-Level score reports to firms.

Dec 16, 2006

Go through with the lie, they won't check.

Dec 16, 2006

My friend had to send his SAT score report to a hedge fund. The College Board still has all of your scores, you just have to pay a fee because they are archived. He had to order the report, have it mailed to him, and then send it off to the hedge fund.

The top consulting firms (McKinsey, BCG, Bain) all require that your SAT scores be listed right on your resume. I don't actually think this is that silly, as there are lots of ways to get into college so a good amount of people at an Ivy League school have crappy SAT scores. While I have no doubt that there are some people with bad SAT scores who are smart nonetheless, have you ever met anyone with a 1500+ SAT score that was intellectually stupid? Nope. So strong SAT scores are just any easy indicator that someone is intellectually gifted, although bad SAT scores are not necessarily an indicator that an applicant is not. So it's not a bad thing for the bank to ask for.

Dec 16, 2006
jgsim:

My friend had to send his SAT score report to a hedge fund. The College Board still has all of your scores, you just have to pay a fee because they are archived. He had to order the report, have it mailed to him, and then send it off to the hedge fund.

The top consulting firms (McKinsey, BCG, Bain) all require that your SAT scores be listed right on your resume. I don't actually think this is that silly, as there are lots of ways to get into college so a good amount of people at an Ivy League school have crappy SAT scores. While I have no doubt that there are some people with bad SAT scores who are smart nonetheless, have you ever met anyone with a 1500+ SAT score that was intellectually stupid? Nope. So strong SAT scores are just any easy indicator that someone is intellectually gifted, although bad SAT scores are not necessarily an indicator that an applicant is not. So it's not a bad thing for the bank to ask for.

There is no stated requirement at M/B/B for the listing of your SAT score on your transcript..in fact, some students have only taken the ACT. They interview folks with lower SATs too at target schools.

Dec 16, 2006

No, you are required to list it on your resume at Bain and BCG, and to fill out an application for McKinsey and put you SAT score on your application (you can also put it on your resume if you'd like). You're not supposed to list it on your transcript (you're not supposed to touch your transcript). I know this is true for my ivy league school, and I'm pretty sure everywhere else. And if you haven't taken the SAT, then you have to list your ACT I assume (they all just said SAT is required so I'm assuming they want the ACT score if you don't have an SAT score). And yeah they interview people with lower SAT scores at targets, but these people are mostly underrepresented minorities.

I know this process is true at at least most of the ivy leagues through the regular on-campus recruiting process, but I guess if you get an inteview through a connection or some other means they might not require it.

I interned at one of the aforementioned firms and every intern had an SAT or ACT score on his or her resume.

Dec 16, 2006

The original poster mentioned leaving the SAT score request blank on his/her application.

This obviously raised a red flag to the interviewer. They are not stupid.

IMO, that is why interviewer requested that info more then once. Testing your credibility and integrity.

Yes, they will do a background check for internship. Usually takes a few weeks after you start to complete. In your contract, you will be signing a release that the firm can request info from police (criminal records), uni, references, high schools---basically anything on your application.

Obviously they want SAT scores and you left it blank.

Doesn't mean you might not have gotten an interview/intern offer if they were low. They just want as much info as they ask for. Period.

You painted yourself into a corner.

Either face up to it or blow them off and not get back to them.

Learn a lesson-always be honest. If you don't remember just say so, if you are ashamed of them-just say so. Interviewres are more impressed with that then your actual score.

Good luck.

Dec 16, 2006

Ok, so the major consensus is to go on with the lie. The only way they will actually find out is if 1) the SAT scores are listed on my transcript or 2) if they request me to send an official copy. As far as signing a release form, will that be enough for them to get the scores themselves? I doubt it is. Also, is it possible for someone already admitted to a university to retake the SATs? I researched the College Board website but couldnaEU(tm)t find an answer. IaEU(tm)m kicking myself right now for trying to be a cool slacker in high school, what the hell was I thinking. If only I had the foresight to know how important these scores actually are.

So my course of action for now is:
1) On Monday I will verify w/ my school that SAT scores are not on my transcript. (My school already sent the transcript so if they are listed IaEU(tm)m done.)
2) Call the College Board to see if I can retake the SATs.
3) Email interviewer with fake score break down (my interview was Friday.)

For the person who I asked how I got the interview: I got extremely lucky. It is possible to get an interview from a non-target.

Thanks for all the advice.

Dec 16, 2006

Bad choice posting this on a message board.
It doesn't matter for SA. From what I've heard from close friends is that banks don't even verify grades for SA- goldman at least doesn't.

Dec 16, 2006
How to save a life:

Bad choice posting this on a message board.
It doesn't matter for SA. From what I've heard from close friends is that banks don't even verify grades for SA- goldman at least doesn't.

hi, DanBush! (only DanBush refers to summer analysts as SAs....he also loves to talk about whether or not banks verify grades)

Dec 16, 2006
How to save a life:

Bad choice posting this on a message board.
It doesn't matter for SA. From what I've heard from close friends is that banks don't even verify grades for SA- goldman at least doesn't.

Hahah..yea I know Goldman doesn't verify grades for their summer banking program, but I'm not sure about their s&t program (banks have separate HR for each program so practices might vary. Also, I know Morgan Stanley doesn't verify grades for their summer fixed income s&t program. It might be actually useful to compile a list of which banks don't check, for the reference of those aspiring summer analysts with bad grades. I do know that pretty much every bank will check if they give you a full time offer and you accept it, but what i'm not sure about is if they will also check if they give you a full time offer but BEFORE you accept it. If they only check after you accept the offer, you could just intern at one bank with a fake inflated GPA, and then reject their full-time offer and interview at other banks with your true GPA. You'd be able to get into another bank with the experience from your internship and an offer to return there, even if your true GPA is not good. The only problem I see is if banks check GPAs right after they give full-time offers but before you accept it..in this case I'd imagine that they would figure out your lie and rescind the full-time offer. In which case you could still interview with other banks, but it looks better to have an offer to return from your intern employer.

Dec 17, 2006
jgsim:
How to save a life:

Bad choice posting this on a message board.
It doesn't matter for SA. From what I've heard from close friends is that banks don't even verify grades for SA- goldman at least doesn't.

Hahah..yea I know Goldman doesn't verify grades for their summer banking program, but I'm not sure about their s&t program (banks have separate HR for each program so practices might vary. Also, I know Morgan Stanley doesn't verify grades for their summer fixed income s&t program. It might be actually useful to compile a list of which banks don't check, for the reference of those aspiring summer analysts with bad grades. I do know that pretty much every bank will check if they give you a full time offer and you accept it, but what i'm not sure about is if they will also check if they give you a full time offer but BEFORE you accept it. If they only check after you accept the offer, you could just intern at one bank with a fake inflated GPA, and then reject their full-time offer and interview at other banks with your true GPA. You'd be able to get into another bank with the experience from your internship and an offer to return there, even if your true GPA is not good. The only problem I see is if banks check GPAs right after they give full-time offers but before you accept it..in this case I'd imagine that they would figure out your lie and rescind the full-time offer. In which case you could still interview with other banks, but it looks better to have an offer to return from your intern employer.

Let's PM each other the list. We will also PM others the list if they want it. I just think it's best if we don't publicly post said list.

Dec 16, 2006

Yeah actually that's not a bad idea. You can absolutely take the SATs whenever you want regardless of age. But it's still pretty unlikely that you'll get the exact fake score you quoted them..however, if you score above the fake score you quoted them, I doubt it'll be a problem (you could just say you weren't sure of the score despite checking your records and you mistakenly underquoted it..no one will have a problem with underquoting..it's just overquoting that's a problem). I guess a problem with that scenario though might be that a report they get from the College Board will likely have the date you took the test on (so they'll realize you quoted a score you didn't have whilst interviewing), but I think there's a good chance this will be overlooked since background checks are usually done by an outside company. I think you should've just been honest..I mean..if you're at a non-target, itsn't the presumption usually that you don't have a sky-high SAT score (otherwise you would be at a better school), so if they chose to interview you anyway, they should've assumed this. But the fact that you supposedly do have a strong SAT score now yet go to a non-target might prompt them to check it out, but probably not until later this Spring when they do background checks.

Just curious, but roughly how high a score did you quote them? You might want to study for the test a bit over winter break. On the bright side, the SAT has changed since the time you last took it (they eliminated analogies and the comparative math questions, for one), so perhaps you'll do better on this format.

Dec 17, 2006

I'm very surprised at the complete lack of integrity by the posters on this board. How can so many people promote lying about his SATs? If you got low scores, put them on the paper. Honestly, stop trying to cheat the system.

Dec 17, 2006
CompBanker:

I'm very surprised at the complete lack of integrity by the posters on this board. How can so many people promote lying about his SATs? If you got low scores, put them on the paper. Honestly, stop trying to cheat the system.

Absolutly agree with you. Imagine working with these schmucks on your team...fudging numbers, inaccurate work,.....

If I had anyone on my staff like this, they would be gone in a new york minute.

Too much legal regulations, client relations and firm integrety at stake too waste on carrying such losers.

Dec 17, 2006

If he asked from the start whether or not he should lie, everyone would tell him not to. But now that he is already in, might as well continue on with the lie.

Disclaimer: The post above has been made by someone who is not currently employed in IBD, and has not had an interview yet...

Dec 17, 2006

Yea I'm starting to think it might just be better to email my real scores and say sorry it was an honest mistake. I'm thinking further down the line this is going to catch up to me and make me look like a liar in front of a lot of people.

Do BBs normally verify SATs scores for full time hires?

Dec 17, 2006
eyedea:

Yea I'm starting to think it might just be better to email my real scores and say sorry it was an honest mistake. I'm thinking further down the line this is going to catch up to me and make me look like a liar in front of a lot of people.

Do BBs normally verify SATs scores for full time hires?

"Starting to think"...well, I gess that is a beginning.

BBs and well as most firms do complete backcheck for past five years after you accept offer. Incudes everything, as I posted above. Offer WILL be rescinded if lies or discrepincies are found.

Then just try to explain that to another firm when you are dinged.

Most firms contract with outside agencies for background check and you will be called in to HR/MD/Staffer to explain any questions they uncover. This takes several weeks to complete after you start job--along with drug testing. No one hesitates to fire yo if caught in such lies.
Firms do not want the responsibility of a first yr analyst carrying a bag of shit. They don't need that.

Dec 17, 2006

.....Oh, yes they do.

Dec 17, 2006

You're a fool if you email them your real scores. Trust me, go through with the lie, they'll never know.

Do whatever it takes to win, all these other chumps telling you to be honest are probably the dorks that have never taken a risk in their life.

Dec 17, 2006

agreed, you are screwed either way, so might as well take a shot at it. Chances are they won't even check your SAT scores for an internship

Disclaimer: The post above has been made by someone who is not currently employed in IBD, and has not had an interview yet...

Dec 17, 2006

so there's always the chance of being caught but this time it's not stealing candy when you where 10 years old. Second, it's all about your conscience but I think you will do best by going on with lying, because you already compromised yourself. still shocked that you got in to this

ps. If this comes out, I think it will flow on the street (Banks know that you have an offer from another bank so they will know this too), so let's see how much of a risk-taker you are!

Dec 17, 2006

Goodness, it's surprising the number of people that are condoning this.

Dec 17, 2006

Do not lie. Period. If anything, just send the true results and hope for the best. In all honesty, you probably will not get the job. But I think that if you did lie, and were discovered later on in your employment, it would create alot of problems for you in the future. You could never use that job for a reference, you end up kind of blacklisting yourself in a sense. If there's one thing I've learned from people who are a lot more experienced than myself, it is that your reputation in the business world is everything. At the end of the day, you've got your reputation, and it precedes you in everything you do. You need to protect it fiercely, so don't go destroying it at this early stage by lying. I think this is one of those things you need to chalk up to 'live and learn'. Best of luck.

Dec 17, 2006

I think many of you suck at reading comprehension. This isn't a full time job, its an internship. Which means he'll be there for less than 3 months. Which means there is a 99% chance they won't even check his credentials. Right now he is screwed whether he admits to it or not.

If he admits to it his reputation is ruined.
If he continues with the insignificant lie, there is a large chance he won't even be caught.

Absolutely worst case scenario, he just won't list the internship on his resume.

+ who knows, he might not even get the internship to begin with

Disclaimer: The post above has been made by someone who is not currently employed in IBD, and has not had an interview yet...

Dec 17, 2006

The sad thing though is that HR of just about every place reads here too. For kicks and tips.

UBS changed on-line format because of "fake accounts" created for practice testing.

Asp monkey--your advising poster to continue with the lie is read and with all the personal info posted on here- it is public knowledge.

Same with seanc , senior at Michigan, etc...not hard to reconstruct information.

But the best of all, is the original poster...we all know when the interview was, we all know info on leaving the SAT info blank, we all know applyong for a summer internship from a non-target, we all know poster has been asked to send SAT scores...........

Don't you think HR/ Firm/ Interviewer will know through the grapevine?????

Also, that is why applications/interviews are done months ahead of starting an internship/grad offer....so backgroung checks can be run.

Dec 17, 2006

well he is screwed either way, so its worth a shot to continue. Thats why its best not to lie in the first place, because eventually it'll catch up to you, if this was for full time, I'd just tell him to stop replying to HR at all.

And you are making Investment Banking look like its a secret society. Is there some collaboration between Investment Banks? Yes. But will an HR person who might be reading here, start calling every single bank out there and tell them "Hey, there is a kid from a non-target who lied on his resume about his SAT scores, check it out" I sincerly doubt it.

You make it sound like someone lying on the resume is something extremely rare in the business world. Its really not, and many people rise very far w/o ever being called on it. Just look at that CEO who lied about his degree.

Disclaimer: The post above has been made by someone who is not currently employed in IBD, and has not had an interview yet...

Dec 17, 2006

oh and as far as HR reading here? Don't decieve yourself. If this site was such a huge attraction to HR, we would be seeing a lot more "JOBS", since they'd want to tap into this "great" candidate pool.

Disclaimer: The post above has been made by someone who is not currently employed in IBD, and has not had an interview yet...

Dec 17, 2006

Aspiringmonkey doesn't even have a job...so I don't think his view is really accurate.

When I filled out the background check, they asked me a lot of questions. It's done by an outside agency, not the bank, so they will be thorough: it's their job.
Also on background checks, they send a detailed form to your former employers and ask what you were like and verify if you actually left willingly or were fired. I saw the form myself when I went to visit the place I worked last summer. If you lie, get the internship, and then don't get an offer because they find out you lied, the bank will absolutely write this down on the background check form, if you ever get an offer from another firm.

Moral of the story: the lie will come back to get you. Don't be so stupid next time.

Dec 17, 2006
fp175:

Aspiringmonkey doesn't even have a job...so I don't think his view is really accurate.

When I filled out the background check, they asked me a lot of questions. It's done by an outside agency, not the bank, so they will be thorough: it's their job.
Also on background checks, they send a detailed form to your former employers and ask what you were like and verify if you actually left willingly or were fired. I saw the form myself when I went to visit the place I worked last summer. If you lie, get the internship, and then don't get an offer because they find out you lied, the bank will absolutely write this down on the background check form, if you ever get an offer from another firm.

Moral of the story: the lie will come back to get you. Don't be so stupid next time.

Hey fp,

I think you said you were UK based, right? I'm almost positive that it doesn't work like this in the US. Due to huge slander lawsuits, most large corporations have a policy where they refuse to provide ANY information on former employees except confirm that they worked there and their dates of employment. I think they might also give the official reason for your leaving (whether fired, resigned, etc. or if you did or did not receive a full-time offer after your summer internship). Basically, due to fear of lawsuits, most large US firms will only provide the bare facts about a former employee. If your prospective employer attempts to call your supervisor/manager at your old firm, he knows to send the prospective employer right to HR and not say anything. And HR tells him basically nothing except that you did or did not work there, when you worked there, and reason for leaving. There is a lot of unhappiness with this policy in the US now, since firms find themselves hiring people who commited egregious crimes at their previous firm (like stealing, sexual harrassment, etc.), yet were told nothing of it by the person's former firm since that firm feared being sued.

The only way that I could maybe see a firm getting around this (bashing a former intern without fear of getting sued) is if interns aren't considered by law to be "employees." This may actually be the case but I'm not sure. But even then, it's still slander, so I'd still have to imagine that the firm would want to give just the bare facts to avoid being sued.

Dec 17, 2006

I know this lie will catch up to me and blow up in my face. In the event I get the internship, the plan is to retake the SATs before I start the internship and hopefully score higher than what I quoted them. Wouldn't you see this as fixing the problem? Although, the SATs will list the date taken I can talk my way around this.

Secondly, I thought CollegeBoard would only release your SAT scores to univ. you select. Even if it is some background/investigative company asking for them.

Dec 17, 2006

First, the bank outsources their background checks to investigator firms and you WILL 100% absolutely have to sign paperwork giving that firm total access to all of your records - they can fax that form to your college and get your transcript, your SATs, anything they want (I know a guy who had his offer rescinded b/c he lied about being arrested even though the record was expunged, they found the expunged record). Second, if by some miracle you don't get caught, and you get a full-time offer from this firm, you can't take it. If you DO take it, and then they EVER catch you on the SAT thing, you'll be fired, disgraced and you'll have to repay some of the bonus money that you earned (that is absolute fact by the way, if someone tells you that you don't have to repay it, he's wrong, wrong, wrong). Third, when you get caught, you'll be completely disgraced and blackballed by other banks. The I-banking world is very small, everyone knows people at other banks. Imagine getting fired and then applying to another bank, one person at the new bank sees your resume, knows someone at your old bank and calls him - then he's told "yeah, we fired him b/c he lied about his SAT score to get a job." You'll never work in banking again. Finally, and most importantly, if you do work at this bank for the Summer, every time the phone in your office rings, every time you get an e-mail from HR (and trust me, you'll get lots of them - everyone does), every time one of your superiors says, "can I talk to you," you'll wonder if that's the moment you're going to get fired. It's not worth it. Send your real scores, and if the guy says, "this doesn't add up to the original score you told me," tell him you made a mistake in the interview.
You will thank me. B/t/w, in case you all think that interns don't ever get fired, an Associate intern was fired from MS last summer. It happens.

Dec 29, 2006

A record thats expunged means you can LEGALLY answer no to the question of whether you have been convicted or arrested of a crime. period So either he didn't have it properly expunged or an employer can't fire him. Also convictions are the only thing exposed in a background check for employement also, not arrest. Unless you are applying to law school etc.

Apr 12, 2007
pitchmonkey:

First, the bank outsources their background checks to investigator firms and you WILL 100% absolutely have to sign paperwork giving that firm total access to all of your records - they can fax that form to your college and get your transcript, your SATs, anything they want (I know a guy who had his offer rescinded b/c he lied about being arrested even though the record was expunged, they found the expunged record). Second, if by some miracle you don't get caught, and you get a full-time offer from this firm, you can't take it. If you DO take it, and then they EVER catch you on the SAT thing, you'll be fired, disgraced and you'll have to repay some of the bonus money that you earned (that is absolute fact by the way, if someone tells you that you don't have to repay it, he's wrong, wrong, wrong). Third, when you get caught, you'll be completely disgraced and blackballed by other banks. The I-banking world is very small, everyone knows people at other banks.

While true, this argument doesn't tell the whole story. Head off to work in Chicago at a different firm, and it may be forgotten. Still, it's probably not worth it.

Finally, and most importantly, if you do work at this bank for the Summer, every time the phone in your office rings, every time you get an e-mail from HR (and trust me, you'll get lots of them - everyone does), every time one of your superiors says, "can I talk to you," you'll wonder if that's the moment you're going to get fired. It's not worth it. Send your real scores, and if the guy says, "this doesn't add up to the original score you told me," tell him you made a mistake in the interview.

This is excellent advice. Some have described working at an I-Bank as visiting Willy Wonka's Chocolate Factory. Every time your boss calls, every time HR calls, every time any higher-up wants to talk to you, the first question going through your head if you're like most people- SAT scores or not- will be "Did I screw up?"

If you keep the lie going on your SAT scores, you will be worrying all summer long. I, personally, would much rather spend the summer as a clerk at a trading firm earning $10/hour, even if my job opportunities were a little narrower next year.

If you don't tell the truth, your SAT scores will haunt you for years. The good news is that if you ever get fired, you can write a great autobiographical screenplay for a remake of MacBeth, so there is a silver lining in such a screw-up.

You will thank me. B/t/w, in case you all think that interns don't ever get fired, an Associate intern was fired from MS last summer. It happens.

I've never heard of an intern getting fired mid-summer. Were it to happen, it would be embarassing for the bank, IMHO. I've seen interns get drunk at company events and throw up on other people and heard of interns telling racist jokes while speaking in front of the rest of the summer class. None of them were fired, although I doubt they got full-time offers.

What did the MS guy do? Send out an email giving people detailed instructions for attending a birthday party at the Ritz-Carlton?

Dec 17, 2006

fired for what pitch

Disclaimer: The post above has been made by someone who is not currently employed in IBD, and has not had an interview yet...

Dec 17, 2006

So retaking the SATs before the internshp won't solve anything?

Dec 17, 2006
eyedea:

So retaking the SATs before the internshp won't solve anything?

Are you a freshman??

Otherwise, I hope you realize there is a new SAT format and scoring system!!

Dec 17, 2006

How would that help? Let's assume you got a 1100, but you told them you got a 1400. You lie again and send the breakdown as 800 Math 600 Verbal. Now, you retake the SATs - you really think you're going to be able to a) hit that score and that breakdown exactly, and b) have the results in before the background checks are finished? No way that happens, because it's not enough to take the test before you start at the bank, your score will be discovered when the background check is being conducted, and that could be anytime after you get your offer and sign the paperwork with the bank. Don't put yourself through this, just send the real score breakdown and see if they even ask about it. If they do, tell them you made a mistake in the interview.
One last thing I forgot: if you go to a college with any kind of Honor Court or Honor Council, you can be brought up on charges for this kind of lie. The school will be very pissed when they are told by an investment bank that a student lied in an interview and compounded that lie by sending fake information. The school might decide to make an example out of you in order to square it with the bank - you want that violation on your school record next time an investment bank does a background check on you?

Dec 17, 2006

Spot on.

You are a better person than I to hang in there with this group. Gave it my best shot. But am throwing in the towel.

Sounds like they have to learn the hard way.

Dec 17, 2006

Just don't want to see a kid ruin his career before it's even started.

Eyedea: you lie, you get caught, your career in banking is over. You tell the truth, you may not get a job with one bank this Summer, but you have your reputation, so the rest of Wall St. is still a possibility. It's that simple.

Dec 29, 2006
pitchmonkey:

Just don't want to see a kid ruin his career before it's even started.

Eyedea: you lie, you get caught, your career in banking is over. You tell the truth, you may not get a job with one bank this Summer, but you have your reputation, so the rest of Wall St. is still a possibility. It's that simple.

agreed.

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Dec 17, 2006

Due to huge slander lawsuits, most large corporations have a policy where they refuse to provide ANY information on former employees except confirm that they worked there and their dates of employment.

This is true, however, telling another firm that you lied about your SAT scores would not constitute slander. It would be an easily established fact. This is not not to say that the info would be passed on for sure, only that slander is off the table.

In addition, you'd have to come up with a pretty good excuse for leaving, should you be fired for such a thing.

Dec 17, 2006

I agree that you'd still have to come up with a very good excuse since you'd been fired. But I really really don't think they would say anything beyond that you were fired, even if they say that instead of just that you are no longer with the firm. You're right that lying about SAT scores is a fact, but it still opens so many doors that a firm would rather just keep closed. I.e. if the HR woman says something along the lines of "we fired him because he's a liar. He lied about his SAT scores." Well the "he's a liar" part is slander. You see where I'm going here.

I don't advocate lying by any means unless it's a dire situation, but I just wanted to point out that firms raely give anything beyond time of employment and if fired (I'm not even sure if they say if a person was fired or not..I actually heard they only confirm if you worked there and dates of employment). At least this is how it works at my dad's firm (not banking..but a huge company).

Dec 17, 2006

yes technically they aren't supposed to say anything. But I think this mainly applies to HR. + they can always leak that info...how will you ever know?

Example like someone in this thread mentioned, everyone on Wall Street knows each other. So if your buddy John calls and says, "Hey I got this kid Jason that says he worked in your group this summer, how is he?" and you tell him "Oh yeah, he stole a computer on his way out".

Do you really think the kid will ever find out thats the reason he didn't get a job?

Lying gets you nowhere. And you can't do it 50/50 anyways, gotta be honest in everything, or your credibility goes the window.

Disclaimer: The post above has been made by someone who is not currently employed in IBD, and has not had an interview yet...

Dec 29, 2006

First, if you have your record expunged, and you are asked if you are asked if you have been arrested or convicted, you may NOT answer no. I was a lawyer before I became a banker, and I am 100% positive about this. An expungement acts only to clear your record, so if your record is checked it will not show the conviction, but, if you're specifically asked about being arrested or convicted you still may not lie about it - it's completely separate from an expungement which, again, is only a legal move to clear official records. Also, background checks in most states show arrests and convictions - they'll show the arrests and acquitals, dismissals, convictions, whatever the disposition of the case was.

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Dec 30, 2006

I would rather hire a hardworking kid from State school who was top 10% of their class than deal with some of the egos I ran into at Harvard. I would say above 1100+ on SAT's more than good for me.

I remember before I graduated, I saw a job posting for a hedge fund that asked for applicants with only SAT scores above 1450.? What a dumbass move. The most successful trader coming out of our class went into correlation trading and joined a Hedge fund... He made mid 7 figues last yr but the fund in college didn't interview him because he had a 1430. This fund was started by non other than a bunch of our Harvard alumns... who in their wisdom decided to put their egos above their brains. Last year, they dissolved their fund....

They were probably thinking they should have made the metric 1500... keep out all those dumbass applicants with 1490......

Mar 11, 2007

1100+ on your SATs? Please...

There's definitely a correlation between SAT score and raw intelligence. I see it as completely valid wanting to know someone SAT scores, it is a useful cross school comparision.

Someone with a 1500+ and a 3.8 from a non-target school doing econ/math might get an interview while a 1300 with 3.8 might not.

Mar 11, 2007

Personally, I don't have a high tolerance level for blatant and willful honor code violations. If one of my summer candidates was caught in this situation, we'd fire him on the spot. His HR record will be noted "terminated for cause", and that's the whole ball game as far as a banking career is concerned. I may have to have a word with our head of recruiting.

Does that make your decision-making any easier?

Apr 11, 2007

but DOES ANYONE KNOW IF A BANK WOULD EVER CHECK/ASK FOR HIGH SCHOOL TRANSCRIPT? BACKROUND AGENCEY? This maybe for any reason check ap scores whatever.

Apr 12, 2007

With all this hubbub, is there a prohibitively low SAT score for high level banking jobs? Do you honestly believe this is hard and fast at the corporate level?

I suppose I can understand for a hedge fund or some super quant shop but it just seems fairly dated?

Also, what about only giving your ACT score if you did comparatively better on that, even if you also took the SAT?

Apr 12, 2007

Dude, here's why you lie:

  1. You're an intern. If you think any bank is going to spend money on a background check, you're insane. I have friends in HR and they don't even check some full time graduate hires. Interns are less important than the shoe shine guy, so trust me, they won't check.
  2. Go through with the lie, or don't contact them. Telling the truth leaves you fucked. You won't get blacklisted b/c HR competes against other HR's for talent, so it is a bitch fest anyway. Lie muthafucka. Bankers do it all day and in their sleep.
Apr 12, 2007

I was too lazy to read the whole post and gave up 2/3 of the way down the first page.

However, here is what I would do:
I would get back in touch with the firm and say that you have decided to pursue other opportunities. Then, look for anything you can get, and try not to tell a lie in the interview (is it really that hard?).

Apr 13, 2007
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