Good MSF programs in the US for fresh undergrads
I am currently a senior student at a univeristy (not famous) outside US and Europe majoring in Economics and minoring in Math.
I am considering applying to Master of Finance programs in the U.S. and Europe and upon completion trying getting a job at an investment bank or trading ( at least an internship with a possibility to secure job placement in future).
I have no prior work or internship experience at all which is a disadvantage, but I took some math as an undergrad and did pretty well (got an A in Real Analysis course).
Could you please give me some advice on solid MSF programs (with internship opportunities) where I will have a big chance of being accepted?
Also, in my understanding, quantitative finance or financial engineering are not the best programs for getting a job in IB. Correct me if I'm wrong and recommend whether I should consider these programs as well or focus only on MSF?
My stats:
1) GRE quant 169, verb 160
2) GPA: 3.7
3) Math background: Calculus (including multivariable), Linear Algebra, Probability, Real Analysis, Stochastic processes, Econometrics (including Time Series analysis)
4) no work experience
5) passion to know more in finance (little background, only Microeconomics, Financial markets)
very good GRE score. you should decide first on MS Finance in a corporate tilt vs. quantitative tilt, and then the major programs will help you a lot with Visa. Stay within top 5 within either list and aim as high as you can.
Thank you for cheering up, whattherock. :)
I am leaning towards Investment Banking or trading career. As I understand, MSF suits better for this path, doesn't it?
Do you think I can really aim at top programs without any work experience at all? I reckon most applicants will have some experience and some will be from target US schools with connections. Thus, it might be hard to get into good programs.
What do you think? Any programs you can advice?
you haven't heard me. if you read it slowly again you'll see what I mean, because not all MSF are created equal.
yes you can apply to top programs, and nobody will discourage you. benefits to you is not to stupidly reject yourself by not applying, and benefits to school is to have a diverse body of thoughts in the class - it's all about knowing the appeals specific to your background, and make sure you showcase you're the best within that "stereotype" or "admission quota".
Now, "you should apply" doesn't mean you will get in. Great opportunities are almost never easy-to-get, so you should fight hard to prepare your applications.
By the way, this @Noelle90 character worked for 3 years but still sounds like a know-nothing. I know one of the programs deeply and have friends completed other top MSFs- IB placement is often 1-2 hires per year, so that's the joke about placing IB jobs when most of IB offers are internship conversions. Tell me how to be a summer intern if your MSF is from August to May! ---- That's exactly the type of "experienced" people in the competition that has even less MSF chances than you do.
Also agree with TNA that MFE - quant version - or those eligible for STEM OPT extensions - are significantly advantageous for internationals. But don't go if it's not your type as competition is fierce.
this is general advice to readers- I dont have websites and I earn nothing for inviting you to compete with us, but know who to believe, know who to ask for advice, and know when to be coachable!
Your GRE converts to a 740 GMAT and you have a strong GPA. You'd get into most good European programs since you have strong formal education scores. Bocconi would most likely give you a scholarship because of your scores.
As for US programs, I think you'd be competitive at most. I say competitive because US programs tend to look for employability over just raw scores (this is different than most European programs). While your stats are great, without some work experience or decent internship experience, you'll find getting a job to be a lot harder than people with much lesser scores.
You might want to try for the MFE type programs as they tend to be better for internationals when it comes to placements. They also focus on raw scores vs. softer things (EC's, Internships, Rec letters, etc).
Vanderbilt, USC, WUSTL, Villanova, UT Austin. All are great programs and place kids in IB but MIT will help you the most with trading
Thank you for suggestions, Noelle90.
If we look at the MSF class profile in these good programs, we can see that a large portion of students has some work experience, although it is not 'officially required' in the application.
Is there a specific rating list of PRE-experience MSF programs? (apart from the Financial Times ranking since they clearly prioritize European programs, and I am mostly interested in the US ones)
Or can you guys recommend programs where applicants with no work experience do REALLY have a chance of being admitted?
These programs don't need word experience... They ARE pre experience programs...majority of students have little to no experience
just saying - good observations on the experiences stats. most MSF people I know have SOME experience, full-time, internship, a class playing university endowment fund, whatever. It's usually not long or star jobs but they usually have something credible if not sky high grades.
UT Austin or MIT fo sho
Suggestions on MSF? (Originally Posted: 04/09/2015)
Hi Everybody -- I signed up on WSO a year ago but is really new here..Not sure if this is the right place to post this question, it seems everyone's talking about Wharton, MIT, Kellogg...or MFE...
But looks like people are very helpful on WSO so I suppose I can get helpful replies here:)
So I've applied for MSF from 5 schools this year, and I'll list my reasons below for applying to them -- but they are really just my impressions so may be very biased. Plus I'm a chemistry major who happens to get a job in research (mainly equity research, has exposure to futures and options) and got very interested in finance, so I decided to pursue a MSF degree. I just passed CFA I last Dec.
All that said, I'd really like to hear what everyone has to say about my impressions of these schools, and I appreciate any suggestions or opinions on the MSF provided by these schools.
UMD Smith -- Tier 2/Tier 3 MSF program. Overall I think this is not a bad program; curriculum looks reasonable, close to DC, not far from NYC. But I really have no idea how good their placement is; looks like they are competing with GWU MSF.
John Hopkins -- The name brand is perfect, but I suppose JHU is not traditionally known for their business school, plus their MSF program is very new. If I decide to go to DC area, I'll have to pick between UMD and JHU...
USC Marshall -- Marshall is a good school, with big alumni network, OCR opportunities, centered in LA. I heard the study and life experience there is amazing. Only one problem -- their MSF program only started in 2014 so there isn't even much data for me to see.
University of Miami -- my impression is that UM is very academic and has good faculty team (chemistry, earth science departments gave me that impression). But what I value the most about UM is that they are conveniently located near the financial center of Miami. I think they are the only worthwhile MSF program in Florida (except UF, unfortunately they only take their own undergrad) who provides new blood to the Miami financial industry -- or maybe the institutions in Miami area hire nationally anyway?
Bentley University -- I've been living in Boston since 2007 and have only heard good things about Bentley, such as magnificent career service, top-notch technology (trading lab/student investment fund), huge alum network in Boston and NYC area, frequent OCR events...My cousin and one of my friend (MSA) are placed into Deloitte and KPMG, and another friend (MSF) went to JP Morgan. But I know their MSF program is far weaker/less reputable than their MSA. I wonder just how strong their MSF is? And I know Bentley is very regional, but I'm OK with that -- I love Boston!
The biggest factor is really that my wife is graduating with a PhD, and Miami, LA, DC are cities where she may find an ideal job (for her specialization). I only applied to Bentley in Boston simply because I love Boston.
So I will continue to do my DD, but any input is welcome (especially job-related info -- job placements, OCR, career service, alum, etc.)
I'm really flexible in doing any finance-related work post-graduation simply because I love all areas of finance. (IB, consulting, corporate finance, etc. of course, I won't say that to admission or on an interview:) VC/PE, M&A and hedge funds are exciting, but I think these are not likely with the above 5 schools. But really I have one question: how about going down the faculty track in school? Forgive me as I didn't do any homework, but is there even a PhD in finance? It seems nobody's talking about it. Apparently someone has to do the research for finance journals (Graham and Dodd?), and coming from a science background, I love doing research. Any info on that?
Kudos to you if you patiently finished reading this! And appreciated!
Dear riddell.josh, why would you argue in favor of these particular programs?
From my understanding those are the top MSF programs. Vandy is also v good.
Hope someone can see this...10hrs and it's already buried!!
Bump~
Even though SC's program is new, I think the brand/recognition and network demands respect. I would go to SC.
Check out the main MSF thread and dig through WSO. Keep in mind that MSF programs are very regional in placement.
In fact I'm leaning towards USC...I still have time to decide, so I'll dig deeper here and also hope more people can give feedback. And Thanks!
I think you did fine research--enough said
your problem is not informational--your problem pal is about making decisions.
If you really want to take an ideal MSF after your wife earns that PhD, talk to her and see if you two can work out details. If not, I think you can make a fairly ranked list aong your 5 picks, and you may say she has offers in city A, B, C, and city B has your 2nd ranked MSF program, etc.
Otherwise, I think you'll end up with wherever she goes--then this post is not going to be helpful..
lastly, how long have you had the work experience? 0~2 years MSF is ideal >2 years, you should think about MBA as a possibility; unless the MSF program gives you a better school in MBA ranks (e.g. UMd Smith is ~30)
Thanks Shuang19! Wasn't expecting somebody to give comments after the post sank to the bottom:)
I have 2.5 years of work experience in non-profit industry -- it's sort of related to finance (we do our own analysis like a buy side, but the endowment is relatively small) and I want to go one step further. Plus my undergrad major is not finance therefore I picked MSF.
You make a great point -- I should probably go for an MBA. In fact I'm hoping to get into a top MBA program but my undergrad grade and work experience are not outstanding compared to peers. I hope to change that in my grad study.
Still waiting for response from USC -- their program starts in mid-May...Otherwise I'll go to Smith. Do you think their MBA/MSF dual degree is worth getting?
USC or bust. Rest are fine programs, but not in the same league as USC.
Thanks TNA! It looks like people highly regard the potential of the MSF of USC even though it's a very new program. I suppose that has to do with the reputation of MBA from USC Marshall? Will definitely consider if I get admitted.
In general, apart from the very top programs with fierce competition, what are somegood lower-tier but with greater rate of acceptacne and without a prejudice against candidates with no experience?
Give it to me Strait. MSF Suggestions (Originally Posted: 07/21/2010)
I am entering my senior year at a non-target (as in a small school in the New England area you've never heard of) I have a 3.4 GPA and am an accounting major. I am also a 4 year varsity athlete in baseball (and a sucessful one at that, with recognizable achievements). I was also named a team captain. I have done two internships in regional public accounting firms , and have accepted a big 4 internship offer in NYC for summer 2011. I want to do a Masters in Finance becuase I want to leave my carreer options open for a jump to finance, which I am fascinated by (Ib and trading). I am yet to take the GMAT, but I am currently studying for it. I am looking for realistic MSF program suggestions, or if you guys think I can get in at all!
Thanks Guys
your credentials are good enough to be competitive for a spot at a top program, dont settle for a mediocre MSF program, you wont get the same recruiting opportunities out of a worse program.
What is your quant background? If it's not strong you can forget MIT, Princeton, Olin and Vandy. Rest should be possible, it's hard to tell without an actual GMAT score.
Any test scores? It would be be a whole different story if you scored a Q of 51! To be somewhat competitive I recommend a minimum score of 48-49, this because most MSF emphasize quant knowledge.
Yea I am just in the process of studying for the GMAT right now, but I certainly don't think I will be in the 48-49 range, I will be more middle of the pack. Who knows I may suprise myself! Thanks for your comment
The thing is, with the GMAT for MSF programs, they are basically only looking at your quant score. As long as you have a reasonable verbal score the admissions committee won't care. You really need to be 80th %ile or higher on the quant section of the GMAT to be competitive for most of the higher level programs (the ones that collector mentioned). 80%ile is right around a 47. If your quant background in undergrad classes is strong and you took lots of heavy math you can probably get away with a 46-47 on the quant section. If you don't have a strong math background you will probably need a 49+ score. I think if you get a score right around 700 (preferably 700+) and study like hell for the quant section (can't be middle of the pack for quant, it will severely hurt your chances) you should have a good shot at one of the better programs. Your internship experience and EC's are strong and your GPA is solid. Good luck!
Thanks for your post's guys they've been really helpful. Are there any programs that are not as heavy on quant during admissions, or are they all mostly like this? During College I took the bare minumum requirements for math, which ended u being calc, and didnt do exceptionally well (mostly becuase my professors thick german accent) . Math has always been something that if I put some effort into I could do just as well as anyone, I just dont think I have what people would characterize as a math brain, which is why I dont think I will do exceptionally well on the gmat. I guess I just need to study like hell and hope for the best
The good thing about the GMAT is that you don't necessarily need a "math brain" to do well. Perseverance and effort will do. Most of the math is basic middle school math. It won't be anywhere near as complicated as calculus. You should be able to get it down if you study study and study some more. If you need some help I would suggest going over to gmatclub.com and check out the math question section and also try out their sample gmat tests (for math only, the verbal ones aren't great). They basically have questions that you would see at the 48+ quant score level (i.e. the hardest questions you will get). Practice them and your score will definitely go up.
As far as schools that aren't as quant heavy. I'm not really too sure on this one. AnthonyD might be able to answer this question better. I think Villanova and Boston College might not be as math heavy but I could be wrong. Also, you could check out UVA's MS Commerce and Duke's masters program too.
Vanderbilt, BC and Nova. What part of the country do u want to work in? Look at my blog, all the MSF programs are there with links and stuff.
AnthonyD-Thanks alot for your post/pointing me to your blog its exactaly what ive been looking for. I live and work in an area of New York just outside the city, and want to begin my career there as well. Also do you think it will be a problem becuase I have no FT work experience? Thanks Again- Silver Banana in the future
I should also look to the UK and Europe; the degree is much more common across the pond.
In the UK: You might be out of range for Oxford, Cambridge, LBS, or LSE. However, you could still consider Imperial, Warwick, UCL, Cass, Edinburgh, Glasgow, or others.
On the continent: You might be out of range for HEC Paris or Bocconi. However, you could still consider the Rotterdam School of Management, St. Gallen, EM Lyon, or others. Also, even though these programs are in non-English speaking countries, they should all have degrees offered in English.
In EM Lyon the only english taught track is financial engineering, i think.
Suggestions on Choosing an MSF Program (Originally Posted: 10/28/2014)
Hi everybody,
Pending acceptances, I've decided to start an MSF program next Summer / Fall. My background at a glance:
School: Undergrad at San Diego State University Major: Statistics, Actuarial Science Emphasis Current GPA: 3.86 GMAT: Writing in December
Work History: (8) years in the United States Marine Corps (Artillery) Service included (4) combat deployments to Iraq & Afghanistan, several individual awards
Schools to which I plan to apply:
Thanks in advance for any suggestions.
Just out of curiosity, why pick an MSF over an MBA? I honestly feel like you've got a great shot at a very good MBA program given your impressive work history and leadership.
My short answer is, I love finance & math. If I could land a role that implements both, that would be awesome. I'm definitely not opposed to an MBA. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but my perception is that it's something more valuable after some business experience. I got plenty of work experience in the Marines; just not the financial kind!
Maybe others can chime in as well but I'm pretty sure your eight years in the Corps would more than suffice for pre-MBA experience. I had a bunch of friends go military after college, serve how many ever years (for some reason I think it's 8 but the guys I know seemed to do it more quickly, like 4 years, maybe they served out the rest in the Reserves?) you need to and go directly to an MBA program. However, I don't know if that's because they were officers.
What's your ultimate job/career goal(s)?
Thanks for your input. I'd say right now, my ultimate goal is a position in Private Equity. Would you say that an MBA is more beneficial than a MSF in that regard?
Well, I'm at Georgetown, and I can tell you that we have several servicemembers in my cohort. Most people would probably tell you to make CMcK your first choice, but a veteran with an MSF would have crazy good job opportunities in D.C. Booz Allen Hamilton takes a big pile of grads from here every year, and you could do corporate finance at any number of big defense contractors in the area. Georgetown also places pretty well in NYC, I am told.
Are you in the MSF or MBA program at Georgetown, @23mishima ?
I go to USC Marshall undergrad and hear that mba recruiting is solid, especially in socal
100% do an MBA. MSF is not for you.
From reading this site, go for an MBA and any graduate education should be done at a target school. Unless you're tired of the lifestyle, financially speaking, going back in as a Mustang is more than likely the most lucrative option.
I am under the impression his 8 years of Marine Corp experience is prior to his undergrad. Seeing as it says "planning to write FM exam after graduation". His Marine Corp experience was enlisted most likely.
In that regard I think an MSF is a much better opportunity (seeing as undergrad was most likely paid). Aim for a top MSF of MS Financial Engineering.
Wow, thanks for all of the suggestions! I have some stuff to chew on, for sure.
@UTDFinanceGuy, yes, I enlisted in the Marines when I was 17. My plan to write FM/2 is keeping that Actuary door open. Although my goal is a position in finance, I wouldn't shut out an actuarial opportunity either. From what I have seen on the course listings through some of these MSF programs, there's a good bit of material overlap anyways. And yes, my undergrad is covered. I might also be able to get a grad program covered as well, but it's a big maybe.
@ArcherVice, thanks for your suggestion as well, but I couldn't see myself going back in the military. It was a good ride, no doubt. But, I did my time, if you know what I mean.
@TNA, is there any particular reason why you think I should pass on the MSF?
Again, I really appreciate the responses.
Best of luck man and thank you for serving our country.
You are an MBA candidate, that is why. You do an MSF and you are going to be choosing from a small group of schools, many of which aren't high on the "prestige" list. You will also be viewed in this nether region when it comes to recruiting.
You have 8 years work experience in the military with deployments. You have a 3.9 GPA. Assuming you do well on the GMAT I would think you should be competitive at normal top MBA programs. You probably need two years to do an internship and really reposition yourself. And I think the MBA will help you come in as an associate. No sense doing what many people consider is a "junior" degree when you are eligible for the established masters.
Good luck Devil Dog!
MBA is better to make the career switch, MSF would be more usefull if you want deeper knowledge in the field already knowing Finance.
Princeton and MIT.
There you go
You're a gentleman & a scholar.
MSF Program - Any thoughts? (Originally Posted: 05/13/2015)
Hello,
After discovering my interest in the financial sector I am considering getting an MSF degree as it would provide me with valuable skills that would allow me to make a career change from Engineering to corporate finance.
I've been researching online for a while and few issues that I have regarding the MSF degree that I would like to clarify:
Is it worth getting an MSF degree? Are there enough jobs for MSF grads?
Will it be worth getting the degree from a upper level tier 1B or a tier 2 school? I am thinking of applying to Boston College, Brandeis, Boston University, Bentley.
How tough will it be to get a job in the Boston area after graduating from one of these schools? (Boston has tons of other schools that produce plenty of finance graduates every year)
A lot of forums mentioned that the job market in finance is fiercely competitive and sometimes for students with grad degrees very small. Will it be possible to break into the finance industry with an Engineering Background or companies will look down on me for not having a business background?
Is there Academic year co-op/ internships for grad level finance students?
Thank you in advance.
@TNA is the man to answer this. But just repeating what he's said in the past if you are referring to f500 corp finance it is definitely doable. You should check out OSU for corp finance. Engineering guys do great in finance cause they are generally good with the qunt aspect.
An msf is what you make it. If you want investment banking there are only a dozen or so schools that realistically give you a shot. If you're looking for F500 or something very regional there are a ton of good programs. When people talk about rankings it is in the light of someone who wants IB.
From the schools you're applying to it looks like you're Boston focused. I'd say BC should be your main focus. The other schools could be worth it at the right price.
I'm traveling, but can answer more in depth later.
I PMed you. If you wouldn't mind getting back to me that'd be greatly appreciated.
Thanks everyone for your inputs.
if your previous degree can carry you forward, just get some business certificate. plenty of business dudes have B.Eng degrees. It's not as big of a problem as your networking power. e.g. UCLA Extension's Business Certificate covers a majority of the typical classes for BSBA/MSF degrees at a fraction of price and time. if your previous degree doesn't help much with your business repositioning, then take a MSF is fine, but a higher tier/brand will always pay off in the longer run.
Necessitatibus illo earum est minima. Ut omnis exercitationem cum voluptatum. Possimus occaecati harum sunt ut molestiae. Autem ducimus et sit. Cum facere minus consectetur.
Nobis voluptas tempora occaecati consequatur sint. Maiores necessitatibus praesentium ullam omnis voluptatem quidem quas.
Veritatis voluptas facilis iusto veniam aut optio ut. Totam voluptas qui debitis ipsam ea. Harum eius debitis sed ut beatae ipsum. Occaecati neque quis perspiciatis voluptatem sint ut.
See All Comments - 100% Free
WSO depends on everyone being able to pitch in when they know something. Unlock with your email and get bonus: 6 financial modeling lessons free ($199 value)
or Unlock with your social account...
Sapiente odit dolor labore maxime quo. Et eveniet in sunt nihil nemo odio nam. Dolorem officiis ab deleniti quam ex.
Non repellendus consequatur culpa quod debitis temporibus veniam. Dignissimos nostrum consequatur nihil neque cumque. Ipsum explicabo omnis eum ipsa est voluptatem. Eaque aut eum facilis ipsam aut.
Rerum sed iusto quis et accusantium voluptas. Culpa et aut illo illo. Repellat totam cupiditate illo vitae veritatis quo. Dolore nobis dolores possimus alias iste ipsa.