Good MSF programs in the US for fresh undergrads

I am currently a senior student at a univeristy (not famous) outside US and Europe majoring in Economics and minoring in Math.
I am considering applying to Master of Finance programs in the U.S. and Europe and upon completion trying getting a job at an investment bank or trading ( at least an internship with a possibility to secure job placement in future).
I have no prior work or internship experience at all which is a disadvantage, but I took some math as an undergrad and did pretty well (got an A in Real Analysis course).

Could you please give me some advice on solid MSF programs (with internship opportunities) where I will have a big chance of being accepted?

Also, in my understanding, quantitative finance or financial engineering are not the best programs for getting a job in IB. Correct me if I'm wrong and recommend whether I should consider these programs as well or focus only on MSF?

My stats:
1) GRE quant 169, verb 160
2) GPA: 3.7
3) Math background: Calculus (including multivariable), Linear Algebra, Probability, Real Analysis, Stochastic processes, Econometrics (including Time Series analysis)
4) no work experience
5) passion to know more in finance (little background, only Microeconomics, Financial markets)

 

Thank you for cheering up, whattherock. :)

I am leaning towards Investment Banking or trading career. As I understand, MSF suits better for this path, doesn't it?

Do you think I can really aim at top programs without any work experience at all? I reckon most applicants will have some experience and some will be from target US schools with connections. Thus, it might be hard to get into good programs.

What do you think? Any programs you can advice?

 

you haven't heard me. if you read it slowly again you'll see what I mean, because not all MSF are created equal.

yes you can apply to top programs, and nobody will discourage you. benefits to you is not to stupidly reject yourself by not applying, and benefits to school is to have a diverse body of thoughts in the class - it's all about knowing the appeals specific to your background, and make sure you showcase you're the best within that "stereotype" or "admission quota".

Now, "you should apply" doesn't mean you will get in. Great opportunities are almost never easy-to-get, so you should fight hard to prepare your applications.

By the way, this @Noelle90 character worked for 3 years but still sounds like a know-nothing. I know one of the programs deeply and have friends completed other top MSFs- IB placement is often 1-2 hires per year, so that's the joke about placing IB jobs when most of IB offers are internship conversions. Tell me how to be a summer intern if your MSF is from August to May! ---- That's exactly the type of "experienced" people in the competition that has even less MSF chances than you do.

Also agree with TNA that MFE - quant version - or those eligible for STEM OPT extensions - are significantly advantageous for internationals. But don't go if it's not your type as competition is fierce.

this is general advice to readers- I dont have websites and I earn nothing for inviting you to compete with us, but know who to believe, know who to ask for advice, and know when to be coachable!

 

Your GRE converts to a 740 GMAT and you have a strong GPA. You'd get into most good European programs since you have strong formal education scores. Bocconi would most likely give you a scholarship because of your scores.

As for US programs, I think you'd be competitive at most. I say competitive because US programs tend to look for employability over just raw scores (this is different than most European programs). While your stats are great, without some work experience or decent internship experience, you'll find getting a job to be a lot harder than people with much lesser scores.

You might want to try for the MFE type programs as they tend to be better for internationals when it comes to placements. They also focus on raw scores vs. softer things (EC's, Internships, Rec letters, etc).

 

Thank you for suggestions, Noelle90.

If we look at the MSF class profile in these good programs, we can see that a large portion of students has some work experience, although it is not 'officially required' in the application.

Is there a specific rating list of PRE-experience MSF programs? (apart from the Financial Times ranking since they clearly prioritize European programs, and I am mostly interested in the US ones)

Or can you guys recommend programs where applicants with no work experience do REALLY have a chance of being admitted?

 
financedreams:

Thank you for suggestions, Noelle90.

If we look at the MSF class profile in these good programs, we can see that a large portion of students has some work experience, although it is not 'officially required' in the application.

Is there a specific rating list of PRE-experience MSF programs? (apart from the Financial Times ranking since they clearly prioritize European programs, and I am mostly interested in the US ones)

Or can you guys recommend programs where applicants with no work experience do REALLY have a chance of being admitted?

just saying - good observations on the experiences stats. most MSF people I know have SOME experience, full-time, internship, a class playing university endowment fund, whatever. It's usually not long or star jobs but they usually have something credible if not sky high grades.

 

I think you did fine research--enough said

your problem is not informational--your problem pal is about making decisions.

If you really want to take an ideal MSF after your wife earns that PhD, talk to her and see if you two can work out details. If not, I think you can make a fairly ranked list aong your 5 picks, and you may say she has offers in city A, B, C, and city B has your 2nd ranked MSF program, etc.

Otherwise, I think you'll end up with wherever she goes--then this post is not going to be helpful..

lastly, how long have you had the work experience? 0~2 years MSF is ideal >2 years, you should think about MBA as a possibility; unless the MSF program gives you a better school in MBA ranks (e.g. UMd Smith is ~30)

 

Thanks Shuang19! Wasn't expecting somebody to give comments after the post sank to the bottom:)

I have 2.5 years of work experience in non-profit industry -- it's sort of related to finance (we do our own analysis like a buy side, but the endowment is relatively small) and I want to go one step further. Plus my undergrad major is not finance therefore I picked MSF.

You make a great point -- I should probably go for an MBA. In fact I'm hoping to get into a top MBA program but my undergrad grade and work experience are not outstanding compared to peers. I hope to change that in my grad study.

Still waiting for response from USC -- their program starts in mid-May...Otherwise I'll go to Smith. Do you think their MBA/MSF dual degree is worth getting?

 

Thanks TNA! It looks like people highly regard the potential of the MSF of USC even though it's a very new program. I suppose that has to do with the reputation of MBA from USC Marshall? Will definitely consider if I get admitted.

 

What is your quant background? If it's not strong you can forget MIT, Princeton, Olin and Vandy. Rest should be possible, it's hard to tell without an actual GMAT score.

Any test scores? It would be be a whole different story if you scored a Q of 51! To be somewhat competitive I recommend a minimum score of 48-49, this because most MSF emphasize quant knowledge.

 
collector:
What is your quant background? If it's not strong you can forget MIT, Princeton, Olin and Vandy. Rest should be possible, it's hard to tell without an actual GMAT score.

Any test scores? It would be be a whole different story if you scored a Q of 51! To be somewhat competitive I recommend a minimum score of 48-49, this because most MSF emphasize quant knowledge.

Yea I am just in the process of studying for the GMAT right now, but I certainly don't think I will be in the 48-49 range, I will be more middle of the pack. Who knows I may suprise myself! Thanks for your comment

Gang, Gang, Gang
 
Best Response

The thing is, with the GMAT for MSF programs, they are basically only looking at your quant score. As long as you have a reasonable verbal score the admissions committee won't care. You really need to be 80th %ile or higher on the quant section of the GMAT to be competitive for most of the higher level programs (the ones that collector mentioned). 80%ile is right around a 47. If your quant background in undergrad classes is strong and you took lots of heavy math you can probably get away with a 46-47 on the quant section. If you don't have a strong math background you will probably need a 49+ score. I think if you get a score right around 700 (preferably 700+) and study like hell for the quant section (can't be middle of the pack for quant, it will severely hurt your chances) you should have a good shot at one of the better programs. Your internship experience and EC's are strong and your GPA is solid. Good luck!

 

Thanks for your post's guys they've been really helpful. Are there any programs that are not as heavy on quant during admissions, or are they all mostly like this? During College I took the bare minumum requirements for math, which ended u being calc, and didnt do exceptionally well (mostly becuase my professors thick german accent) . Math has always been something that if I put some effort into I could do just as well as anyone, I just dont think I have what people would characterize as a math brain, which is why I dont think I will do exceptionally well on the gmat. I guess I just need to study like hell and hope for the best

Gang, Gang, Gang
 

The good thing about the GMAT is that you don't necessarily need a "math brain" to do well. Perseverance and effort will do. Most of the math is basic middle school math. It won't be anywhere near as complicated as calculus. You should be able to get it down if you study study and study some more. If you need some help I would suggest going over to gmatclub.com and check out the math question section and also try out their sample gmat tests (for math only, the verbal ones aren't great). They basically have questions that you would see at the 48+ quant score level (i.e. the hardest questions you will get). Practice them and your score will definitely go up.

As far as schools that aren't as quant heavy. I'm not really too sure on this one. AnthonyD might be able to answer this question better. I think Villanova and Boston College might not be as math heavy but I could be wrong. Also, you could check out UVA's MS Commerce and Duke's masters program too.

 
AnthonyD1982:
Vanderbilt, BC and Nova. What part of the country do u want to work in? Look at my blog, all the MSF programs are there with links and stuff.

AnthonyD-Thanks alot for your post/pointing me to your blog its exactaly what ive been looking for. I live and work in an area of New York just outside the city, and want to begin my career there as well. Also do you think it will be a problem becuase I have no FT work experience? Thanks Again- Silver Banana in the future

Gang, Gang, Gang
 

I should also look to the UK and Europe; the degree is much more common across the pond.

In the UK: You might be out of range for Oxford, Cambridge, LBS, or LSE. However, you could still consider Imperial, Warwick, UCL, Cass, Edinburgh, Glasgow, or others.

On the continent: You might be out of range for HEC Paris or Bocconi. However, you could still consider the Rotterdam School of Management, St. Gallen, EM Lyon, or others. Also, even though these programs are in non-English speaking countries, they should all have degrees offered in English.

"If you can count your money, you don't have a billion dollars." - J. Paul Getty
 

My short answer is, I love finance & math. If I could land a role that implements both, that would be awesome. I'm definitely not opposed to an MBA. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but my perception is that it's something more valuable after some business experience. I got plenty of work experience in the Marines; just not the financial kind!

 

Maybe others can chime in as well but I'm pretty sure your eight years in the Corps would more than suffice for pre-MBA experience. I had a bunch of friends go military after college, serve how many ever years (for some reason I think it's 8 but the guys I know seemed to do it more quickly, like 4 years, maybe they served out the rest in the Reserves?) you need to and go directly to an MBA program. However, I don't know if that's because they were officers.

What's your ultimate job/career goal(s)?

 

Well, I'm at Georgetown, and I can tell you that we have several servicemembers in my cohort. Most people would probably tell you to make CMcK your first choice, but a veteran with an MSF would have crazy good job opportunities in D.C. Booz Allen Hamilton takes a big pile of grads from here every year, and you could do corporate finance at any number of big defense contractors in the area. Georgetown also places pretty well in NYC, I am told.

 

From reading this site, go for an MBA and any graduate education should be done at a target school. Unless you're tired of the lifestyle, financially speaking, going back in as a Mustang is more than likely the most lucrative option.

 

I am under the impression his 8 years of Marine Corp experience is prior to his undergrad. Seeing as it says "planning to write FM exam after graduation". His Marine Corp experience was enlisted most likely.

In that regard I think an MSF is a much better opportunity (seeing as undergrad was most likely paid). Aim for a top MSF of MS Financial Engineering.

"It is better to have a friendship based on business, than a business based on friendship." - Rockefeller. "Live fast, die hard. Leave a good looking body." - Navy SEAL
 

Wow, thanks for all of the suggestions! I have some stuff to chew on, for sure.

@UTDFinanceGuy, yes, I enlisted in the Marines when I was 17. My plan to write FM/2 is keeping that Actuary door open. Although my goal is a position in finance, I wouldn't shut out an actuarial opportunity either. From what I have seen on the course listings through some of these MSF programs, there's a good bit of material overlap anyways. And yes, my undergrad is covered. I might also be able to get a grad program covered as well, but it's a big maybe.

@ArcherVice, thanks for your suggestion as well, but I couldn't see myself going back in the military. It was a good ride, no doubt. But, I did my time, if you know what I mean.

@TNA, is there any particular reason why you think I should pass on the MSF?

Again, I really appreciate the responses.

 
sourpatchkid:

Wow, thanks for all of the suggestions! I have some stuff to chew on, for sure.

@UTDFinanceGuy, yes, I enlisted in the Marines when I was 17. My plan to write FM/2 is keeping that Actuary door open. Although my goal is a position in finance, I wouldn't shut out an actuarial opportunity either. From what I have seen on the course listings through some of these MSF programs, there's a good bit of material overlap anyways. And yes, my undergrad is covered. I might also be able to get a grad program covered as well, but it's a big maybe.

@ArcherVice, thanks for your suggestion as well, but I couldn't see myself going back in the military. It was a good ride, no doubt. But, I did my time, if you know what I mean.

@TNA, is there any particular reason why you think I should pass on the MSF?

Again, I really appreciate the responses.

Best of luck man and thank you for serving our country.

 

You are an MBA candidate, that is why. You do an MSF and you are going to be choosing from a small group of schools, many of which aren't high on the "prestige" list. You will also be viewed in this nether region when it comes to recruiting.

You have 8 years work experience in the military with deployments. You have a 3.9 GPA. Assuming you do well on the GMAT I would think you should be competitive at normal top MBA programs. You probably need two years to do an internship and really reposition yourself. And I think the MBA will help you come in as an associate. No sense doing what many people consider is a "junior" degree when you are eligible for the established masters.

Good luck Devil Dog!

 

@TNA is the man to answer this. But just repeating what he's said in the past if you are referring to f500 corp finance it is definitely doable. You should check out OSU for corp finance. Engineering guys do great in finance cause they are generally good with the qunt aspect.

 

An msf is what you make it. If you want investment banking there are only a dozen or so schools that realistically give you a shot. If you're looking for F500 or something very regional there are a ton of good programs. When people talk about rankings it is in the light of someone who wants IB.

From the schools you're applying to it looks like you're Boston focused. I'd say BC should be your main focus. The other schools could be worth it at the right price.

I'm traveling, but can answer more in depth later.

 

if your previous degree can carry you forward, just get some business certificate. plenty of business dudes have B.Eng degrees. It's not as big of a problem as your networking power. e.g. UCLA Extension's Business Certificate covers a majority of the typical classes for BSBA/MSF degrees at a fraction of price and time. if your previous degree doesn't help much with your business repositioning, then take a MSF is fine, but a higher tier/brand will always pay off in the longer run.

 

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