Has HBS gotten THIS tough to get into? How can one stand out?

Talked to a good friend of mine and found out that a few of our acquaintances were dinged at HBS this past year. One guy is an associate at Paulson, one is a PM at Citadel, and another is a former Rhodes Scholar working at a high-tech company. They all had 3.8+ gpa and 770+ gmat from top schools.

I know HBS is highly selective, but damm, this is just crazy.

These days what does one have to do to stand out from the crowd?

 

The irony is HBS isn't even that selective when you keep in mind 1000+ people are admitted per year (12-15% admit rate).

The problem is HBS and b-schools are all around decreasing their allocation for finance-focused people. So yeah, while maybe that "Citadel PM" didn't get in because of his qualifications (doubt this was the reason, probably age), I'm sure a boatload of "less qualified" people got in who happened to do something off the beaten-track (entrepreneurship, social enterprises, volunteer, nonprofits etc).

 

ibhopeful,

What you have to keep in mind with admission rates is the quality of your application pool. An undergraduate institution might appear to be as selective as HBS because they receive 30,000+applications but many of these applications are "reach" applications and the quality is not as high. Most (and I stress MOST not all) applicants to MBA programs are already high achievers. They have attended good undergraduate institutions, scored well on their GMAT and have solid jobs.

 

A point most commonly overlooked regarding these places is this:

With 30,000 + applications, taking 15 minutes to read, consider, discuss and compare (which is an astronomically low number considering the effort involved and the length of the application.

That's 450,000 minutes of human time, or 7500 hours, which even with a team of 25, is 300 hours each, or with this team working 30 hour weeks (it's not IB, it's salary + no bonus), 10 weeks of 25 people skim reading applications.

My point? With the ridiculously huge number of applications, they cannot possibly hope to read them all. Sadly, you could just never get seen. Helps the bitter pill of rejection too.

 
Best Response

Definitely agree with the above that top MBA programs (HBS in particular) are reducing their intake of finance people.

One other reason I've heard that some of these top candidates don't get in is because they come across as "entitled" in their application and/or interview.

Based on admission rates for top tier HF/PE people from 07-10, many of these folks assumed they would be admitted simply because of the names on their resume (e.g., GS > TPG or McK > BainCap or MS > Paulson). However, if you come across as arrogant or entitled in your essays or interview, you'll definitely get dinged.

I've heard from some former HBS students that many of these HF/PE guys would sit in the back of class, barely paying attention and not contributing their best effort to the discussion. They did this because they were basically assured a great HF/PE exit after HBS, so they didn't take the learning experience as seriously as they should (in the eyes of HBS, at least).

So it wouldn't surprise me if the adcom got the impression that the guys the OP described would act similarly, hence getting dinged.

MBA admissions are ridiculous because of the seemingly large number of contradictions involved in the admissions process. You have to remain humble, but also need to stand out to get noticed and be considered "different" or "able to bring a unique perspective." They say that GMAT is only check-box, but top programs' avg GMAT has incrased from ~680 ten years ago to ~730 today. Dee Leopold (Dir of Admissions at HBS) is on record as saying that if her task was to admit the "most qualified" 900 students, the class would look differently than it actually does (meaning they admit less qualified applicants on purpose to promote diversity in the classroom). They are moving away from PE/HF candidates, even though many, many students go to top programs to break into those fields. Etc., etc.

The truth of the matter is that, at some point, admissions just becomes a crapshoot. You need minimum requirements (for HBS, say a 3.6+ GPA, 680+ GMAT, reasonable work experience), but beyond that, there is simply a lot of luck involved.

This is frustrating for many people on this forum, who are super-type-A, very hard charging, very hard working, and prefer meritocratic environments. Unfortunately, MBA admissions is not such an environment.

 
That was the first thing I thought as well. If he's a PM at citadel, we can almost assume that he's making $500K+. And my guess is he will be at least 30 years old, if not older, so age definitely hurt him at HBS.
Sure. But folks get burnt out. Would you rather tell Mrs. Wifey that you're heading off to Colorado to be a ski bum or that you're heading to HBS?
 
IlliniProgrammer:
That was the first thing I thought as well. If he's a PM at citadel, we can almost assume that he's making $500K+. And my guess is he will be at least 30 years old, if not older, so age definitely hurt him at HBS.
Sure. But folks get burnt out. Would you rather tell Mrs. Wifey that you're heading off to Colorado to be a ski bum or that you're heading to HBS?

Yeah that's true. HBS is basically the most prestigious 2-year vacation you can take. And I suppose if this guy wanted to meet smart interesting people and expand his horizons, HBS would've been the best place to do that.

 

Aston, that is just an excuse many bankers/PE guys give. The truth is that the bankers/PE guys who get into H/S/W did do something to stand out. So while difficult, it is possible.

For people with such busy work schedules, the key is to really stand out in one or two ways, rather than be involved in 12 different charities. The most common example for bankers/PE guys is to be really, really involved in one single charity. This really shouldn't take more than 10 hours a month, which is very doable, even for busy i-bankers. The way I know it is doable is that many successful bankers have done it.

Btw, I've heard some banker-types say that adcoms shouldn't care about community service. To me, this shows that such individuals don't understand how MBA programs view their mission. They don't see themselves as factories churning out businessmen who can then go make tons of money for themselves. Instead, MBA programs view themselves as developers of future world leaders in all aspects of life (whether i-bankers agree with this "mission" or not, it is truly how the adcoms view themselves). Consequently, they want their applicants to also care about having impact in all aspects of life.

 

These stats are actually quite encouraging for me. It helps to explain why I got bombed from HBS last fall. I'm glad the shift in finance professionals was so dramatic and it wasn't all "made-up" buzz last cycle.

CompBanker’s Career Guidance Services: https://www.rossettiadvisors.com/
 

Is it really a dramatic decrease or simply a reversion to the mean. The classes of '11 and '12 are the peak recession applicants ('08 and '09 apps) when LOTS of finance folks became more inclined to go to school (particularly PE folks where the direct promote door closed at many firms). With declined finance apps today, the admission rate may very well have stayed similar. I'm not saying the phenomenon of adcoms shifting away from finance is not real, but probably a little exaggerated.

 

Maybe HBS is just really way ahead of the curve. Last year that Sandy consultant was saying how many manufacturing people were getting into HBS. Then boom, BCG issues a report two weeks ago predicting a huge resurgence in american manufacturing in the next 5-10 years.

Looks like HBS is more so predicting the future demands of the american workforce than discriminating against finance people for their "arrogant" attitudes.

 

^^^ That's not how these Northeastern schools' adcoms operate. They bought into Nietzsche back in the '50s and that's the ethic they continue to quietly operate under. There's a lot of good people who manage to make it through four years at these schools, but if your worldview and culture is secular post-modern existentialism rather than enlightenment or modernist deism/theism, you don't have as strong of a foundation for values and ethics.

I am not going to get too deep into religion and morals on a secular forum, but if you truly believe that life is what you make of it and that there's nothing bigger than the material world, it's very hard to avoid putting money, power, or sucess at the top of life's priorities and an adcom's interests for that matter. These schools bought into Neitzsche 50-60 years ago and other values have slipped down the priorities list.

 

The issue has less to do with intelligence and accomplishment on Wall Street and more to do with diversity. Most likely, many other people with a similar profile had applied and had been accepted. It's not in anyone interests to have a class that comprises mostly bankers. Rather a class of intelligent bankers, consultants, engineers, doctors, pro athletes, military officers, entrepreneurs, computer programmers, accountants, news photographers, professional ski instructors, real estate developers, NGO workers, writers, etc. from around the world makes for a much better class.

 

What does one have to do to stand out from the crowd?

Have a sex change operation. Then a race change operation to stack up the chances in your favor. And given a decent job experience you are in.

Over and over, I've seen white guys with spectacular credentials who did not get in. And girls with solid-but-nothing-extraordinary backgrounds get in time and time again.

The truth is that you are competing against people like yourself.

The adcom will say ok we want the following profile for the class: 25% Consultants, 25% Finance, etc. etc. Of which we want 60% to be from the US, 10% from India, 10% from Europe blah blah. Of which we want 30% (or more if we can!) girls, X% black, X% latino, x% asian.

So if you work for Mckinsey you are competing with all the Mckinsey guys. If you are a White dude you are competing with all the white guys. If you are Ecuadorian, you are competing with ecuadorian people. If you are blind gay farmer from Nepal and have a pair of balls growing from your forhead, and used that to demonstrate your leadership potential, then you are competing against freaks like yourself.

So at the end you are measured on different axes (that's plural of axis ya morons) against people like you. Adcom has their diversity goals (in terms of work experience, goals, sex, blah blah blah) and constrained by quality of the prospective students. And the truth is that business world is full of white males. So if you fall into that category you will need to try harder. So will they take an asian girl from Brasil who scored 320 on GMAT and worked at McD before she got fired? NO. But the standards are lower for minority women who worked at a PE firm than for a white guy who did the same.

Is it fair? Is it right? Is it offensive? I don't care, just trying to shed the light on things. Feel free to argue if you are feeling insecure.

Oh and one more thing. GMAT north of 700-720 doesnt matter. It gets the point accross that you are not a moron. So the difference between 700 and 800 is marginal from admissibility perspective.

Oh and one more one more thing. Don't obsess about HBS to much. Some of my friends went to HBS and some went to other bschools and some went to no bschools at all. At the end I don't see a clear pattern that those who went to HBS did better financially than those who went to other schools or no school at all.

Peace.

 

@redninja, let me assure you that quality of comments in business school has got nothing to do with how well you do in business. actually, the correlation here is somewhat negative, i'd say.

as far as the salary data goes...please estimated lifetime earnings? it's hard to predict what next month will look like these days.

which school you go to, does not matter. in fact it does not matter if you go to MBA program at all. in fact what i tell ppl to do these days is:

  1. get into the best b-school you can
  2. buy an expensive frame
  3. frame the letter and put it over your desk.
  4. spend next couple years doing internships and travelling the world.
  5. start your own business.

makes for a more interesting story. it's more fun. plus you save yourself $200K or whatever they charge ya these days.

 

IP, you got to admit, those initial averages are low as hell, especially for an MBA as prestigious as Harvard's. A nurse, with an associates can make more than a freshly minted Harvard MBA.

I am not cocky, I am confident, and when you tell me I am the best it is a compliment. -Styles P
 

The only reason to get a top MBA is for the brand and network.

The guys you mentioned seemed too accomplished and would probably gain only the bump the HBS name gives as I am sure there networks are already robust.

HBS wants candidates on the precipice of accomplishment who will benefit the most from the school.

- Bulls make money. Bears make money. Pigs get slaughtered. - The harder you work, the luckier you become. - I believe in the "Golden Rule": the man with the gold rules.
 
Ske7ch:
The only reason to get a top MBA is for the brand and network.

The guys you mentioned seemed too accomplished and would probably gain only the bump the HBS name gives as I am sure there networks are already robust.

HBS wants candidates on the precipice of accomplishment who will benefit the most from the school.

This is not true.

The quality of a top MBA education is worth the time and money spent, and those who go to these types of programmes are provided a much better education than what one would receive at other MBA programmes. The professors at these programmes are usually involved in the most current research and have first hand experience dealing with the most pressing issues facing businesses today on worldwide basis.

To say that HBS only wants candidates on the precipice of accomplishment is also wrong because many of the 1200 people that get admitted into that programme are using b-school to figure out their next career steps while others have already accomplished a great deal.

 
ebwhitaker:
Ske7ch:
The only reason to get a top MBA is for the brand and network.

The guys you mentioned seemed too accomplished and would probably gain only the bump the HBS name gives as I am sure there networks are already robust.

HBS wants candidates on the precipice of accomplishment who will benefit the most from the school.

This is not true.

The quality of a top MBA education is worth the time and money spent, and those who go to these types of programmes are provided a much better education than what one would receive at other MBA programmes. The professors at these programmes are usually involved in the most current research and have first hand experience dealing with the most pressing issues facing businesses today on worldwide basis.

To say that HBS only wants candidates on the precipice of accomplishment is also wrong because many of the 1200 people that get admitted into that programme are using b-school to figure out their next career steps while others have already accomplished a great deal.

this is probably in the top 10 dumbest things I have read on WSO and this site produces an extraordinary amount of bullshit.
 

Every application cycle multiple people are surprised that HBS doesn't let in every single person from a top financial institution (xyz from KKR, GS, paulson, carlyle [insert firm name here] didn't get into HBS! OMG! HBS thinks there are a limited number of leadership positions in finance, and not everyone at KKR is going to be the next Kravis...shocking).

Maybe we should learn to understand that and stop being shoked?

 

If what redninja says is true and cutting out 10 percentage points of entitled finance males has made the HBS experience a more engaging and thought-provoking one, then serious props to Dee and her team. It isn't finance school, it's business school, and having 25 per cent of the class coming off 4 years of pitchbooks and Excel is plenty. Besides, these folks would still thrive at places like Wharton, Chicago, or even Columbia...

The truth is you're the weak. And I'm the tyranny of evil men. But I'm tryin', Ringo. I'm tryin' real hard to be the shepherd.
 

A quick word on DIVERSITY.

I think a lot of applicants get caught up in thinking that it's some politically correct affirmative action policy that adcoms are engaging in.

It's actually much more than that.

A lot of people only look at one half of the equation: admissions and who gets IN.

What most people don't realize that the other half is just as important to b-schools: recruiting and coming OUT of b-school.

A big part of the draw for admissions, prestige, etc. is in large part due to the career opportunities post-MBA.

B-schools are not just about attracting the best and brightest applicants, but also a wide variety of big recruiters.

If a class were full of mostly IB/PE folks, what kinds of recruiters would that attract? What kinds of recruiters would that turn away?

Remember that what makes schools like HBS so great historically is the breadth and depth of their alumni -- you can find HBS alums in virtually every corner of the globe, in just about any industry imaginable. It's not just clustered in one industry. To maintain that breadth and depth, they need to be able to attract all kinds of recruiters.

The whole diversity angle isn't just to benefit students (i.e. having more interesting discussions in class, etc. although that certainly is a factor), but also to benefit the school itself.

If you think of the recruiters as the real customers and the students as "products", then you can see why admissions would want a diverse class - it then allows the school to attract all kinds of recruiters and say that there's something for everyone (think of the MBA as a brothel - with the students as the "providers" and the recruiters as the "johns" and you'll know why it helps to have "providers" of all shapes, sizes and backgrounds).

Alex Chu www.mbaapply.com
 

Amazed that such a gem of insight seems to have gone unnoticed. Applicants view themselves as entitled customers, but b-school, like any intermediary, serves two masters, even if only one is officially paying for it. Slightly reminds me of insurance brokerage. Schools that have access to virtually all job markets and sectors (like HBS) will always have an edge over the specialized ones; I'd argue that the rise and ongoing momentum of Chicago Booth is partly due to its having established itself as equally reliable in consulting and data-driven marketing as it is in finance.

MBAApply:
A quick word on DIVERSITY.

I think a lot of applicants get caught up in thinking that it's some politically correct affirmative action policy that adcoms are engaging in.

It's actually much more than that.

A lot of people only look at one half of the equation: admissions and who gets IN.

What most people don't realize that the other half is just as important to b-schools: recruiting and coming OUT of b-school.

A big part of the draw for admissions, prestige, etc. is in large part due to the career opportunities post-MBA.

B-schools are not just about attracting the best and brightest applicants, but also a wide variety of big recruiters.

If a class were full of mostly IB/PE folks, what kinds of recruiters would that attract? What kinds of recruiters would that turn away?

Remember that what makes schools like HBS so great historically is the breadth and depth of their alumni -- you can find HBS alums in virtually every corner of the globe, in just about any industry imaginable. It's not just clustered in one industry. To maintain that breadth and depth, they need to be able to attract all kinds of recruiters.

The whole diversity angle isn't just to benefit students (i.e. having more interesting discussions in class, etc. although that certainly is a factor), but also to benefit the school itself.

If you think of the recruiters as the real customers and the students as "products", then you can see why admissions would want a diverse class - it then allows the school to attract all kinds of recruiters and say that there's something for everyone (think of the MBA as a brothel - with the students as the "providers" and the recruiters as the "johns" and you'll know why it helps to have "providers" of all shapes, sizes and backgrounds).

The truth is you're the weak. And I'm the tyranny of evil men. But I'm tryin', Ringo. I'm tryin' real hard to be the shepherd.
 

@Cajuna - while i disagree strongly with your point that there's no difference between where HBS grads and other b-school grads end up, I have to say that I am overwhelmingly in agreement with your statement of how strong the effects of affirmative action are on admissions. I've seen it enough times to know --- tons of SUPERSTAR white and Asian guys get rejected each year.... people who, were they a minority and or a female would not get rejected. It's not close, it's just FOR SURE. Also, tons of females and minorities with only strong, but not HBS type strong backgrounds get in... If you're a black female and you had a 3.5 GPA at a big ten school then spent 4 years at big 4 in TAS and got a 650 on your GMAT you've got a 75% change to get in. If you are a white male with those stats you've got a .01% chance to get in -- and that's only because there's a chance your dad is president of the united states.

Also, I want to say that above comment doesn't mean that I disagree with the practice or that I don't see WHY MBA programs want diversity, etc.... it makes a lot of sense and they wouldn't do it if it didn't benefit the school (or if they didn't think it did). But to deny that it's a ton easier to get in if you're a URM or female is just silly.

 
International Pymp:
@Cajuna - while i disagree strongly with your point that there's no difference between where HBS grads and other b-school grads end up, I have to say that I am overwhelmingly in agreement with your statement of how strong the effects of affirmative action are on admissions. I've seen it enough times to know --- tons of SUPERSTAR white and Asian guys get rejected each year.... people who, were they a minority and or a female would not get rejected. It's not close, it's just FOR SURE. Also, tons of females and minorities with only strong, but not HBS type strong backgrounds get in... If you're a black female and you had a 3.5 GPA at a big ten school then spent 4 years at big 4 in TAS and got a 650 on your GMAT you've got a 75% change to get in. If you are a white male with those stats you've got a .01% chance to get in -- and that's only because there's a chance your dad is president of the united states.

Also, I want to say that above comment doesn't mean that I disagree with the practice or that I don't see WHY MBA programs want diversity, etc.... it makes a lot of sense and they wouldn't do it if it didn't benefit the school (or if they didn't think it did). But to deny that it's a ton easier to get in if you're a URM or female is just silly.

I agree with this. The schools believe that accepting a more "diverse" class benefits them, and it's their right to do that. But it's naive to say that all groups have a roughly equal chance of getting in. The admission standards for white and asian men, is A LOT higher than it is for blacks and hispanics. I bring this up everytime I talk to admissions consultants when they mouth off meaningless stats like, "we have clients with 650 gmat who got into HBS!" I then tell them, "there's no way that person is a white or asian male in finance/consulting." And they shut up. Lol.

My best friend is at a top 5 b-school right now, and he said the quality of students span a very wide spectrum. He thinks a lot of the minorities and women in his class, although reasonably smart, are of a decidedly lower caliber than the white and asian guys, and it shows up during class discussions.

 

There's a fairly lengthy article on Poets&Quants that details the most recent webinar held by Harvard Admissions Director Dee Leopold a week ago on June 1. It includes her slides for the presentation and a long and valuable Q&A session she held with applicants. It's really a must-read for anyone considering Harvard this next cycle. Dee goes through the recent changes in the school's admission policies and has some pithy remarks here and there as well.

http://poetsandquants.com/2012/06/07/dee-leopolds-harvard-business-scho…

 

You did the 2+2 I'm guessing, right? Thats a new thing HBS is doing to get people at the time they might decide to go after a law or medical degree right out of undergrad.

If this is what you did, do they help you a lot in finding a job to do before heading back?

 

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