Is the IB vs. PE Debate Shifting Back Towards IB?
Been seeing increased discussion around the tradeoff between IB and PE, especially with recent elevated bonus figures from some banks. Does anyone think the tradeoff is shifting towards IB nowadays with assoc. 1 comp reaching $400k+? Seems like PE is a pretty massive pay cut (assoc 1 $250k all in I think?) without much in the way of WLB improvement. PE does appear to offer 1) more intellectually stimulating work 2) massive upside if you make it long term and 3) some element of being "in the drivers seat". Maybe PE firms have to start upping comp to match IB to attract talent?
Curious what everyone's thoughts on this are, why are you / aren't you looking at PE with recent developments?
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Hahahahaha no way in hell
Care to elaborate? 10 year comp is firmly in IB’s favor and it sounds like PE is basically IB 2.0 with partners dangling carry in front of you while paying you shit up front. Appears you can really get screwed in PE and wind up way worse off than IB. Not everyone makes it, what happens to those left by the wayside in PE when they could’ve stayed in IB?
Agree with you there on all points for situations all else equal. I prefer to build wealth from increasing the value in something I own vs. taking a cut from transactions with little/no skin in the game. Had I gone into real estate, I’d rather own the property than be an agent. Over time comp will speak for itself. Not focused on the first 10 years as most of the wealth will be accumulated in the last 10 years of one’s career.
I've heard this as well
Honestly, if this trend of pay rises and management attempts to ease WLB continues, I can see myself staying in IB for the long-term. One thing that would really change my stance from 'I can see myself doing this' to 'definitely 100% doing this' is if IB brings back expense accounts and adds a bit more travel to the mix for junior bankers.
LFG
What do you mean by “brings back expense accounts”?
To be honest anyone making these decisions based off of comp as a first year associate does not have a long term future in either
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I think you underestimate how intoxicating money is to some ppl in this industry
You guys are evaluating these jobs purely on compensation.
What would you actually prefer to do day to day?
Most of you won’t make it to the senior levels of either profession with this approach.
I doubt anyone actually gets into IB just for the money. And if they do, they get weeded out mostly during recruiting, or early on the job. Anyone who is serious about IB has some underlying interest in deals and the industry. Money just ends up being a good incentive to stay and go through the BS parts. More money means more capacity to handle the BS. Which means more ppl staying longterm.
This job is all BS at the junior level and that’s as far as most people even want to go in it. Few people want to stay long term. The whole reason pay was bumped was to keep people from leaving as analysts/associates, but most juniors still look for exits after their stint. So yeah, it is for the money.
That's interesting. So it's ALL about the money huh?
If you could make $400k operating and unloading a garbage truck, would you quit banking to do it?
I mean if it's all about the money, you should have no issues quitting right now and getting that $400k guaranteed yeah?
Yeah, I would.
Yes, I would absolutely handle garbage for $400k/ year
I would never in my life consider IB if I could make 400k operating a garbage truck
I totally would lol
I surely would, you can work on your side venture while working as a garbage truck driver and the stress is literally zero mate, clear win in here
People choose careers for the money more often than not. Anyone who takes a job in something that doesn't pay well is typically unable to achieve anything higher, or has a Trust Fund to fall back on. Look at Cuba, doctors are quitting their jobs and driving taxis because they can make 50x more money. If a taxi driver in the USA could make 50x more than a doctor, no one would go into medicine, or law, or banking...
Any day I would! Stay fit and make 400k doing it!
Lol agree so much IB is so BS at the junior level like wtf lmao sometimes i still dont fathom how we get paid as much as we do to do what we do
hardo alert
I hate to break it to you but every undergrad I ever talked (and me) to was trying to break into IB because of the comp. Nobody in college is actually passionate about deals (at least not yet). Nobody loves deals so much that they are willing to work the insane hours junior bankers do. It's def about comp.
To quote the one and only epicurean dealmaker’s rules of banking
Rule #4 — It’s all about the money.
It is absolutely, without question, unequivocally about the money. Anyone who says otherwise is a liar, a regulator, an MBA career counselor, or Matt Taibbi
In all seriousness, if you’re in the deal industry, your job is maximize value for them; if it’s not a natural instinct to do that for yourself then maybe you’re in the wrong industry
Totally agree and that's why this strategy of pumping up comp works. Lots of people also go into PE with the mindset that they will maybe take a small paycut and then be rewarded with the riches of having carry and being a multimillionaire when they reach the upper ends of the PE hierarchy. Obviously fairly misguided given how small the funnel gets for those actual participating seats at funds but it brings me to my point - how many of those folks will be swayed by way more money in the very short term. And to be clear, the delta is pretty big depending on where you are. I've seen some LMM/MM funds offer 120-140 base which easily pales in comparison to a 175 / 225 base with higher bonus potential. I look forward to seeing how the mix shakes out in the coming year or two.
Isn’t IB and PE basically the same day to day up until Principal?
Yea I find these comparisons so asinine, especially now working in a PE role. The similarities of the jobs stop at financial theory and sales (albeit much more limited and diff language in PE).
I am curious as to day-to-day in banking vs PE, they seem to be the same thing with slightly different tilts to them
I know of several PE folks who have returned to banking. I think if you want to make a career out of it, PE makes so much more sense. It's more stimulating work, you get to really be part of building a business, and there is enormous long-term comp potential.
That said, if you're like most people on this forum -- trying to make money for a decade or so and then jumping ship to a better life somewhere -- I think banking wins. So much of PE comp is tied up for such a long time. First 10-year comp between a good PE firm and a good bank, the banks are coming out on top by a pretty wide margin. Add to that an army of analysts working with (for..) you, not having to switch companies, and lower competition (no offense MBA associates..), and I think banking does make a lot of sense.
Yeah I’m not a fan of many PE shops being 2 and out yet not compensating accordingly, or otherwise having a bunch of politics being promoted past Sr Aso when it’s much easier to the VP level at an IB.
Nothing wrong exiting an IB after VP level too, if I had to say what’s ideal now sticking in banking at a good well paying IB until/ slightly past associate is probably ideal.
Curious why you think MBA associates is lower competition?
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Interesting, I wasn't aware that most people on this forum are "trying to make money for a decade or so and then jumping ship to a better life somewhere". I was under the impression that most people want to become a baller IB MD, PE partner, or HF PM and then retire around age ~50. What's the rationale of quitting banking 10 years in? The time when you hit high VP / MD level is when things are finally starting to look a lot brighter in your career: you work much better hours and collect much fatter checks. Not to mention, at this point, you'll probably be in golden handcuffs.
Fair point -- I think most of the undergrads / interns on this forum (who make up the majority of the platform, let's be honest) do want to be rainmaker rich people with private jets and all that. But I think that gets beaten out pretty quickly for the smaller population here that has actually been on the desk for longer than 6 months...
First-year analyst debating on recruiting for PE rn. If you're looking at non-NYC/SF/Boston opportunities for PE, the gap is even wider. Two year a2a promo at a mm bank puts me at near 300k (including a2a signing bonus) vs. 175-210k for lmm/mm pe. Gap only widens when you get your first full-year associate bonus. Very tempted to stay.
Associate 1 at MF PE all in is only 250K?
No it's def much higher at MFs
Have an offer from a MF at ~300k for Assoc1. So still 100k in the red, from IB Assoc1s at my BB bank.
Correct - MFs are around 320-350K for Assoc.1 Will be interesting to see what their response along with the UMMs/prominent MM firm's response is. Not sure if they'll mirror the base salaries which banking is offering. They still know PE is desirable from a career perspective and that ppl going to PE view it as a whole different ballgame. Lots of LMM funds paid less than banking even before the recent salary hikes which was never an issue for potential candidates.
ASO 1 at $800M funds is up to $250k…
Make IB MD, $7-10M bank account. Join some MM PE firm to see if you can be a good investor at the senior managing director/partner level.
Any idea how often this happens?
Often.
Edit: Seen it from coverage MDs (especially those who do M&A deals for sponsors) not product MDs. Specific banker I'm thinking of was in MM IB. Not some hotshot EB/BB banker.
Def not. I don't know anyone who feels this way? These bonuses are all one time. Bonuses for 2022 will be nothing like this aside from EBs
At a UMM shop with comp at ~$325k, my banking friends (all at EBs) are all clearing $400k (at least this bonus cycle) but honestly have 0 regrets
NYC?
Nah LA
Please show me 1 post-MBA PE professional that have switched back to banking in the last 5 years. It may happen at the pre-MBA level because they couldn’t hack it to VP, but it rarely happens at the senior levels.
It doesn't happen at the senior levels because you would lose all your unvested carry.
Someone recently left White Oak to go to Raymond James IB lol. Although ive heard White Oak's returns are dogshit and the carry they offer is treated as a joke.
What do you mean, I literally just interviewed by one.
It is fine to be convinced on the decisions you’ve made, but it’s another thing to be blind on facts.
I get that PE is more fun than hand-holding your clients in IB but I also feel way better about my chances of making it to VP and above in IB. Some shitty bank will take me worse come to worst. I also feel like by the time dudes my age get to be VPs and the boomers fuck off WLB will continue to trend upwards significantly.
This 1000% we have entered the golden age of WLB in IB and it's about to only continue getting better.
Sounds like PE is worth it if you’re planning to stay in finance long-term, but if you’re planning to leave and want compensation as soon as possible (versus waiting for carry) banking offers an easier and potential quicker path to be able to do that
This is an overall reasonable take. I do think though that (some) PE firms can open up a couple more exit opp doors, or at least open them wider. If you do a lot of operational work, easy to sell yourself to a portco (yours or someone else’s) and not just corp dev / FP&A. Could you still get these jobs from a good track in IB? Yeah, maybe, but it’s probably a little harder and less natural of a fit if you’re really leaving at the 10 yr point (and thus looking for a senior role)
Funny how this is even a debate. If you want to stack cash, and be financially free within a decade with minimal risk IB wins over PE by a longshot let's be honest here...
Within a decade? What's your math like
Carry = long time to get the $$$
Anybody too compensation-focused early in their careers is doing themselves a huge disservice. You're far better off developing skills and as many as possible. IB teaches you skills for the first 2-3 years, then it really plateaus. PE, VC, strategy/consulting coupled with IB substantially improves your prospects long term. Sorry guys/gals, when you're a 35 burnt-out VP/D, the only skills you really retain are how to make pretty slides and BS your way with clients. Your exit ops are minimal and your career is potentially fucked
Interesting point, think this definitely holds water. Feel like a lot of people look only at comp on this forum
Okay, I take your point in being more well rounded and pushing yourself in more engaging roles. But come on, a 35 year old who’s been in IB their whole career has not “fucked their career”. For starters if they went straight through from analyst they are probably 5 years away from retiring if they wanted to. And companies would absolutely hire someone with that background for a cfo, senior corp dev role, etc. if they had relevant industry experience. Sure, you might have a bit more relevant experience and you might have a bigger range of applicable roles if you were PE instead but let’s not pretend like IB mid level / senior level folks have no exit opps.
It's WSO... opinions don't have to based on fact or reason on here.
Is 40 old in IB?
DELETE
I would not consider Gregg Lemaku's exit typical. He is an absolute beast and I would not rely on that kind of exit as comfort. Also, if you retire at the age of 35/40, prepare to scale back your life substantially unless you've invested super aggressively those preceding years and the market has performed well (e.g. FatFIRE). I've noticed those who leave IB later in their careers generally have pretty underwhelming careers and more or less flame out at the age of 45/50 which should be your peak earnings. That what I've observed from my old IB at least (mid-tier BB)
Won't happen to everyone, but I've seen it a lot. Think about, what skills do you ACTUALLY have at that point in your career? Why should a company that isn't an IB hire you? Can you manage a department...? No just a few associate/analysts. Can you forecast/budget and become a CFO? Any portfolio management/board-type experience? Lol... no. Have you ever invested a dollar of firm capital? Do you ACTUALLY know the sector...more than industry folks? No. Just playing devil's advocate but I think personally the skill set is pretty limiting.
If you have ANY doubt that IB is for you, just wait until you're 40 and your energy levels fall off a cliff.
Cope. I take in the $$$ you don’t
This is how the Associate 2 - IB M&A must feel
I agree 100% with his points btw
poll on linkedin https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:6892140574279892992
If I knew I could stack cash while still equally hating my job, I would’ve stayed in banking, because for fucks sake I’m not doing IB or PE in the next 5 years. And I feel like there are a lot of ppl like me (maybe not on this hardo forum)
Absolutely. Being an employee is interesting but not how I want to live my life.
Hot take - having done both (IBD + PE), the work isn't really that different. Maybe it is super different if you were mostly pitching in banking - that wasn't my experience.
In PE, there's still plenty of nonsense PowerPoint formatting, overly complex (useless) analyses for the sake of optics, and fake deadlines.
Folks in PE love to play up "thinking like an investor" but IMHO, that's a bunch of bullshit. Anyone whos generally interested in business and is observing transactions is already thinking like an investor and asking smart questions. Being a PE associate / VP / principal, you're still relatively low in the ranks and have to take a bunch of shit. Same story everywhere
del
In PE you have to read a lot more b/s contracts, nitpick on banker decks, review the full merger agreements. These are examples of somewhat boring work that you will do in PE
In IB you have to do way more shitty / ridiculous formatting that gets overlooked in PE. In PE the most audience that requires the most attention to detail is the investment committee, but aside from that there are internal presos in which you just need to get your main point across. There are also portco board decks but hopefully your portco is competent and can generate those on their own
Are the EBs the ones paying 400k or majority banks including BB? I'm not seeing 400k all-in at the comp figures I'm reading for IB associates. Or am I not understanding something. Comp = base+bonus as an ib associate too?
Associate 3s at top-paying BBs make 400+ typically. AS2s make close to that or more if top-bucket.
What's all this AS1 making 400k+ then from the post?
Am I missing something or do people really enter into an industry like IB / PE just to leave after less than 10 years? I thought the whole point of working insane hours in your 20s was to reap the benefits of comp in the latter half of your career. If immediate comp is the primary factor for your decision to go into IB, that’s shortsighted and downright dumb to waste your 20s working 80-100 hours a week and basically have nothing to show for it by the time you are a middle manager at a Fortune 500 in your 30s. Many people go into this industry for the comp progression that accelerated once you start getting into the VP+ levels whether you’re in banking or PE.
There's a difference between going into IB/PE think you'll be there long-term, vs then actually doing the job and realizing you fucking hate both lol
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MD is the perfect job for those without friends or hobbies outside of work. 95% of MDs I've met I would never ever have a drink or become friends with if they weren't MDs. Kind of losers - I know I'm being harsh.
Contrary to popular belief, the grind doesn’t get “easier” as you move up. MDs work their balls off, just on different things and with more intellectually stimulating work. Lots of us realize that we don’t want to become like our MDs.
For context, if you work in IB until you’re 30 (VP) you can save up at least $1M. Far from having “nothing to show for it.” Then you can bounce to corp dev and have kids with a much chiller lifestyle.
Not trying to disparage your comment, just providing an alternative point of view
You guys have had truly terrible bosses. Contrary to popular belief you can have a good life / family while still being a high performer in a demand industry and job. Shocking
How many people who started as an analyst have "at least $1M" saved up at 30? I feel like that would be very hard unless 2021 bonuses were the norm and there was a bull market the whole time.
a fuckton of people leave after just a few years, it is very common
We'll see how PE as an asset class does in a world where cost of capital isn't virtually zero
If PE goes down so goes IB as well… who do you think is buying all these companies?
I did both and transitioned out of the industry. Thoughts:
PE:
- WLB is significantly better because it technically isn't a services job. The caveat is live deals are significantly worse because you will be on every single diligence call during the day and do your modeling at night. It's also stressful if your team tries to nitpick on things like cap table, deal structure etc. because that will basically never end until the deal closes
- The pay you mentioned is about right. I think nice thing about PE is that you can reinvest or coinvest into your fund which is better than losing money in the stock market lol
- The biggest pro (IMO) is that people are more competent across the board. I found people that really shaped how I approach problems, organization, leadership. People can still be dicks in PE but the bar is significantly higher than banking
Banking
- The main pro is here is that you have a higher chance of making good money. There are more seats than in PE
- The caveat is there is really shitty WLB across the board. In PE I was able to make some plans on the weekdays but it was always up in the air in banking. Even if you're more senior things can change at a moment's notice whereas in PE you will have some visibility into issues like portfolio company performance, board meetings, or the deal timeline (because your firm is in charge of it)
- The other shitty part was the quality of people you work with. Some of these MBA associates are incompetent snakes. I also would not recommend working at a structure-heavy org like a bulge bracket because it is politics at the most extreme level. This means you can slave away on the most meaningful bullshit nonstop that no one will no or care about
All in all it is a very personal choice. If you have a good standing at your IB firm and don't hate it, there is no reason to leave. That is the minority but there are a few folks I know in that spot
Another edit: If I could do it all over again, I would have tried to work at a smaller IB firm that covers a niche industry well. Ideally a small team where you do all the M&A modeling in house (not that silly coverage vs. M&A split that a lot of firms have). Either that or equity research. Private equity is very interesting, but it's not for everyone and doesn't necessarily make you the best candidate wherever you go. As mentioned earlier about PE, the best part is that you are surrounded by very capable people, and can pick up habits that will serve you well later on.
If you can find a group with good culture, there's no debate that IB wins. You have your good culture, WLB seems to be shifting in the right direction in IB especially if your bank operates on a hybrid or entirely WFH format, and comp is higher. Bonuses def won't stay that way because last year was an anomaly but I wouldn't expect MM PE firms to bump junior pay anytime soon. MM IB can at least compete with BB/EB in base salary, no shot MM PE (where most IB analysts end up after 2 years) can compete with MF at the junior level.
Neither.
I would have focused more on learning how to build a business earlier on. Would have started franchising out of undergrad, done some real estate on the side, or started a DTC biz. Having seen some microcap PE deals, there are so many random business owners that have made an absolute killing (2-5 mill in ebitda) and are about to sell their companies for 6-8x. Most of these business owners are normal guys with average intelligence. Many friends from my high school have went down this path and are doing way better than the average 2+2 guy in high finance in their late 20s. Ultimately, the winner is the guy who sells the PE, not the random VP/MD who works for one. PE only makes sense if you can start your own fund the line (tough as there is way to much capital chasing to few deals) or make partner at a GOOD megafund or UMM firm. Most 2+2/HSW guys wash out and land up at unknown MM/LMM firms (which pay decently, but nothing spectacular).
But really, in an ideal world? I went to an ivy but really didn't apply myself academically. Would have done a specialized STEM PHD at H/S and created a niche company. Starting a biz in a traditional industry (DTC e-commerce, manufacturing, etc.) requires a ton of upfront capital to make 2-5 in EBITDA, maybe a 1:1 ratio. Companies in the software/tech/healthcare space don't require too much working capital, just a specialized knowledge.
This 100%. The difference is most people going into IB / PE have extreme risk aversion. Risk taking is a muscle that needs to be worked and working 80-100hrs per week also leaves you drained and unwilling to risk your comfortable lifestyle
Why I don't take these debates too seriously is it doesn't take into account everyone's own individual career goals. If IB or PE is what you prefer then do that
if ibd had better WLB and these new salaries/bonus, i would be a lifer for life.
I’ve been in IB for 10+ years and am on the cusp of MD promotion (fingers crossed). My firm is a major global bank, not a boutique or MM shop.
Many of the comments disfavoring IB seem to be focused on WLB. However, I wonder how many of these observations are purely based on analyst and associate-level perspectives. In my experience, WLB dramatically improves at VP and beyond. Unlike when I was an associate, as a VP I could regularly leave the office by 6 PM to make it home for dinner with my wife and kids, without worrying about senior bankers giving me trouble over it. Sure, I’d have emails to handle and decks to review in the evening, but from the comfort of my own home and it would be unusual for there to be more than ~30-60 minutes of work. Weekend work was here and there, but not a given. From what I can tell, this is a pretty common IB VP experience.
At Director, WLB improvement seems to really depend on your personal management style and reputation. When you’re highly regarded, you get the best resources (both quantity and quality). I always have two solid VPs under me on a deal or pitch (M&A plus coverage), plus three or four associates and analysts. That means that zero grunt work and administrative tedium make it up to me. Hell, I only very rarely have to open an Excel. Powerpoint? Nope, never. I spend most of my time handling meetings, calls, emails, etc. and playing therapist for our clients. Weekend work is a rarity. The job itself has never been more enjoyable because now I get to focus on thinking through bigger picture questions and analytical frameworks. I run deals without MD involvement 90% of the time, so I also control almost all scheduling, which means I almost never miss activities and events with my kids or have to change plans on my wife. I haven’t had to alter vacation plans since I was a junior VP.
Of course, I’ve seen Directors with much worse lifestyles too. Say, you are viewed more as a workhorse than a manager / leader. Then the MDs will micro-manage you more and suddenly the scheduling advantage goes out the window. Or maybe you are competent but not top tier. In that case, you’ll get a team staffed, but maybe short a VP or associate, and the allocated talent will be weaker. Then you’ll get bogged down in more of the nitty gritty work. Maybe you just don’t know how to let go and insist on checking every cell and reading every footnote twenty times. Any of the above can make WLB considerably worse, but much of it is also determined by your specific circumstances rather than the fundamental structure of IB.
Anyway, the point is: WLB in IB gets a lot better over time! When most leave at analyst or associate to take a PE gig, they are missing out on the considerable lifestyle improvements that come with seniority.
Doesn't Director strike you as a "honeymoon phase" for IB? Everyone tells me that MDs work the hardest and have super high standards they have to meet year in and year out.
I suppose it depends on the bank and the person. There are directors who are just super-experienced VPs and there are directors who perform more like junior MDs. If you can be the latter, the transition to MD is more organic and gradual.
Is that a normal sized deal team? To have an MD, D, 2 VPs, and 3-4 analysts/associates? Im at a top MM and our deal teams are 1/2 MD's, a director or a vp, an associate, and an analyst. It would make sense that your wlb increases greatly since your deal teams are twice the size. Our VP's work very very hard still.
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