Comments (45)

 
Oct 22, 2009 - 8:16pm

snyyj:
Do not know if you guys know this but investment banking/private equity is NOT models and bottles.

It is an oxymoron to say well respected PE fund and normal hours. Well respected PE funds make money, people who work "normal hours" work in compliance and do not make anything.

Thanks for the lesson. By normal hours I meant non-banking hours, not 9-5. Basically, do any megafunds have MM PE hours?

 
Jan 29, 2019 - 10:00am

Many MM PE firms have far worse hours than MF's, i.e. Mariner, Centerbridge, LG, AEA, the list goes on. Just like banking, size of deals has very little to do with hours worked. You don't see GS pulling the hours Piper pulls. This is dictated by many things - how much work senior IP's want to put into pre-exclusivity engagements, how many 2nd round bids you submit, volume of deals, portco/IP, etc...

"Rage, rage against the dying of the light."
 
Jan 29, 2019 - 9:57am

This is an extremely narrow minded and honestly uninformed comment. I'll start off by saying that I did a SA stint at a mega fund in corporate PE. The hours were incredibly manageable, both on the analyst and associate front. Further, VP's worked extremely manageable hours. Sure, they travel probably 10-12 days per month for portco / sourcing, but will be in the office for a few hours on Fridays tops. Principal's / Partners were frankly only in the office when they needed to be. Associates worked weekends when they were on deals, but if you weren't on an active engagement, your hours topped out at 50-60. And trust me, they made money. Big money. I'm now at a MM firm and have worked two weekends total since I joined. I am making great money. Don't believe everything you read online....

"Rage, rage against the dying of the light."
 
Best Response
Oct 23, 2009 - 12:36pm

tothedeath:
Basically, do any megafunds have MM PE hours?

Dumbest question I've ever seen - what do you think?

Megafunds, by definition, cannot have "MM PE" hours (or else they'd be mid-market private equity firms and not megafunds). Logic isn't really one of your strong points, is it?

Megafunds, by definition, are called such as a result of the size of their acquisitions, not how late they stay in the office. They'd be middle market private equity firms if their target size fit the parameters of middle market, not because the team left at 7pm.

Don't be such a douchebag around here either, especially if you're wrong.

 
Oct 23, 2009 - 8:26pm

tothedeath:
Basically, do any megafunds have MM PE hours?

Dumbest question I've ever seen - what do you think?

Megafunds, by definition, cannot have "MM PE" hours (or else they'd be mid-market private equity firms and not megafunds). Logic isn't really one of your strong points, is it?

While tothedeath is behaving like a major douchebag, he is somewhat right (though barely...). MM PE has relatively lighter hours because modeling/analyzing/performing diligence on a smaller MM companies rarely involves the level of complexity of much larger companies. With large companies, there are usually many sub-divisions to model out, cash management can be hard to track (esp. if the company has global operations), trying to define and value all the assets is quite tedious, etc. Also, usually the senior PE professionals on such deals are pretty intense - larger numbers make for more details and increased anal retentiveness - so they are going to be more demanding and won't give a damn if you have other commitments. As the junior person, largely responsible for keeping track of all the moving pieces, its hard to work 'normal' hours in this scenario. Mo' money, Mo' problems, Mo' hours.

 
Mar 28, 2011 - 9:51pm

tothedeath:
Basically, do any megafunds have MM PE hours?

Dumbest question I've ever seen - what do you think?

Megafunds, by definition, cannot have "MM PE" hours (or else they'd be mid-market private equity firms and not megafunds). Logic isn't really one of your strong points, is it?

you're a DB. It's not a dumb question.

This is sort of hearsayish, but I've heard from 2 sources, 1 who was working there at the time, that Carlyle's hours were pretty reasonable.

I've heard time and again that KKR's hours are hideous - as bad as IBD.

Not sure about any of the others.

 
Mar 28, 2011 - 10:28pm

International Pymp:
tothedeath:
Basically, do any megafunds have MM PE hours?

Dumbest question I've ever seen - what do you think?

Megafunds, by definition, cannot have "MM PE" hours (or else they'd be mid-market private equity firms and not megafunds). Logic isn't really one of your strong points, is it?

you're a DB. It's not a dumb question.

This is sort of hearsayish, but I've heard from 2 sources, 1 who was working there at the time, that Carlyle's hours were pretty reasonable.

I've heard time and again that KKR's hours are hideous - as bad as IBD.

Not sure about any of the others.

Ditto on Carlyle, particularly their real estate funds (I feel like this is true for RE in general)

 
Jan 29, 2019 - 10:12am

I can opine from a few sources that KKR is not as bad as it had been for a while. Apollo is really the worst by far, and I would still say that from people I know there it is a modest improvement from banking. Ares isn't so great, but otherwise the MF's are largely a sizable improvement from IB.

"Rage, rage against the dying of the light."
 
Oct 23, 2009 - 12:49pm

Hollywood:
I was just curious, are all megafunds (KKR, TPG, BX, Carlyle...) sweatshops? Are there any megafunds where normal hours are possible?

personally I haven't heard of any megafunds that don't have long avg hours per associate (ie 80+/week). I am sure since they are so big it is more a function of which specialty / industry you are assigned and who your direct reports are. I heard that certain "groups" at WPincus get killed (which implies others aren't quite so bad).

I would actually be interested in learning which groups at which funds work relatively lighter hours. I am sure there is a lot of variance depending on the current deals going on but my guess is that it is more personality driven by the VPs/MDs in specific groups.

-Patrick

 
Oct 23, 2009 - 3:13pm

WallStreetOasis.com:
Hollywood:
I was just curious, are all megafunds (KKR, TPG, BX, Carlyle...) sweatshops? Are there any megafunds where normal hours are possible?

personally I haven't heard of any megafunds that don't have long avg hours per associate (ie 80+/week). I am sure since they are so big it is more a function of which specialty / industry you are assigned and who your direct reports are. I heard that certain "groups" at WPincus get killed (which implies others aren't quite so bad).

I would actually be interested in learning which groups at which funds work relatively lighter hours. I am sure there is a lot of variance depending on the current deals going on but my guess is that it is more personality driven by the VPs/MDs in specific groups.

-Patrick

Thanks Patrick

 
Jan 29, 2019 - 10:17am

I can shed some light on a few groups I have close friends currently working at:

Can offer from a close source that WP industrials is a really tough groups hours wise, but financial services is really solid.

Blackstone has a very laid back culture pretty much across the board, but especially debt strategies, strategic partners, and tac-ops.

Apollo US buyouts is the worst group of all the MF's on average.

Ares BDC is really tough, but the private equity groups aren't that bad.

TPG growth is really laid back. TSSP is a tougher group. Unsure about PE.

Carlyle FIG/Energy are phenomenal groups hours-wise. US buyouts is tough. Real estate is very laid back.

"Rage, rage against the dying of the light."
 
Oct 24, 2009 - 2:49pm

Megafunds, by definition, are called such as a result of the size of their acquisitions, not how late they stay in the office. They'd be middle market private equity firms if their target size fit the parameters of middle market, not because the team left at 7pm.
Don't be such a douchebag around here either, especially if you're wrong.

No, dumbass. Megafunds are called 'megafunds' by the size of their FUNDS, not necessarily by the size of their acquisitions. The bigger the fund, the more capital to deploy, the more deals to look at, the longer the hours at the junior level. Cerberus is considered a megafund with sweatshop hours because it raises huge multibillion dollar funds, but still makes several "mid-market" investments. Nice to get the input of a high school junior, though - thanks.

 
Oct 24, 2009 - 8:56pm

tothedeath:
Megafunds, by definition, are called such as a result of the size of their acquisitions, not how late they stay in the office. They'd be middle market private equity firms if their target size fit the parameters of middle market, not because the team left at 7pm.
Don't be such a douchebag around here either, especially if you're wrong.

No, dumbass. Megafunds are called 'megafunds' by the size of their FUNDS, not necessarily by the size of their acquisitions. The bigger the fund, the more capital to deploy, the more deals to look at, the longer the hours at the junior level. Cerberus is considered a megafund with sweatshop hours because it raises huge multibillion dollar funds, but still makes several "mid-market" investments. Nice to get the input of a high school junior, though - thanks.

You sound like a little kid, name-calling every time you want to say something. I'm 23, not in high school. You first said megafunds, by definition, cannot have MM PE hours. That is simply wrong. I understand the idea that larger, more complex deals take more time. And you are right on one point: it's actually the size of the funds that give the name "megafund." However, it is certainly the case that some groups go home around 7pm most nights, and work little to no weekends.

Tell me, though. What the fuck is your deal? Do you have to act like a tough guy on an anonymous forum to compensate for something? Stop talking like the MD you romanticize about, because in reality you're around my age, and have accomplished nothing respectable yet.

 
Oct 24, 2009 - 10:44pm

wow this is getting intense...i am getting a bag of popcorn and waiting in suspense!

Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules.
 
Oct 25, 2009 - 5:03pm

How difficult is it to find MM PE funds with ~60 hour work weeks? I've been starting to think about where I want to go after banking, and I'm really hoping to find a MM west coast fund with hours under 60.

 
Mar 28, 2011 - 10:03pm

gettys:
How difficult is it to find MM PE funds with ~60 hour work weeks? I've been starting to think about where I want to go after banking, and I'm really hoping to find a MM west coast fund with hours under 60.

That's the dream... it's also probably why it's virtually impossible to find. You'll probably get slightly better hours, or slightly better climate, but not both.

 
Dec 26, 2017 - 1:49pm

The biggest benefit of MM PE is the chance to be promoted without going to BSchool. There's a less than 1% chance of becoming a partner at most MFs and Upper MM Funds, since a lot of the partners are between the ages of 35-45 and aren't going to retire for another 30-40 years. At some MM funds there is space for growth.

 
Mar 14, 2011 - 4:46pm

I could be wrong, but I have two friends (actually friends, not acquaintances), one an associate at Carlyle and one an associate at Bain Cap, and niether get crushed. They say they get out pretty early (7-8) unless they're on a live deal. The peripheral people I know of at KKR and BX never talk about getting out that early ... I think there are megafunds with hours like MM, and I think there are MM funds with hours like megafunds.

 
Mar 16, 2011 - 4:02pm

You are right about Carlyle. NY office is worse than the DC office, but still not terrible hours (unless, working on a live deal).

KKR, Apollo and BX are sweatshops (KKR and BX have long hours for PE. Apollo has long hours for banking or PE)

Warburg is not a megafund (despite their large fund size, they specialize in growth stage companies and will occasionally invest in large LBOs via their "Special Situations and LBO" group and in small VC investments - made a $10mm investment earlier this week). Most in the industry tend to group based on investment philosophy as well (not only on fund size - you are less likely to see WP show up in an auction with KKR and BX... yes, it happens, but that is not their main focus).

 
Jan 29, 2019 - 10:21am

Warburg is absolutely a mega fund lol. The designation for mega funds isn't based on deal size; it's based on fund size. I would say $46bn AUM makes this designation fairly obvious. Also, more than half of their deals are buyouts.

"Rage, rage against the dying of the light."
 
Mar 28, 2011 - 10:56pm

dbdbdip:
For MFs,

Apollo - 8am~12am on average
KKR/BX/TPG - 9am~11pm on average
Apax/Carlyle/Bain - 9am~8pm on average

Not sure about the rest. (WP, SLP, Providence, etc.)

source?

The answer to your question is 1) network 2) get involved 3) beef up your resume 4) repeat -happypantsmcgee WSO is not your personal search function.
 
Dec 26, 2017 - 1:37pm

Your Apax/Carlyle/Bain hours are very off. Most MM PE firms hours are 9 - 11 PM, even outside of NYC. At all of the places you mentioned, you will be doing 9 AM - 12 AM minimum most days and will be working full days on most weekends. Some upper MM funds (eg: New Mountain, GTCR) will work you far harder than MFs. At a MF/Upper MM fund you will constantly be working on potential ideas, so you'll have relatively few slow days.

PE is less brutal than banking only because the hours are more predictable (you can take time off and make commitments without having to break them usually) and the work is more interesting (assuming you actually like finance and aren't doing it to follow the crowd).

 
Mar 29, 2011 - 12:13am

Thats a bunch of BS.

Most of the megafund hours are somewhat more moderate than banking with the exception of when you're on a live deal. That is the case for just about all of them with the exception of KKR, BX, TPG and Cerberus which I've heard are pretty brutal and comparable to banking.

I've never heard anything about the rest to suggest hours deviate from the generic megafund hours I describe above (that includes Apollo). I've personally seen people from Apollo, Blackstone, KKR, Carlyle and Cerberus calling/e-mail at banker hours (i.e. 1AM on a Saturday night, 3 or 4 AM on a work night... when closing deals).

Array
 
Mar 29, 2011 - 2:51pm

Marcus_Halberstram:
Thats a bunch of BS.

Most of the megafund hours are somewhat more moderate than banking with the exception of when you're on a live deal. That is the case for just about all of them with the exception of KKR, BX, TPG and Cerberus which I've heard are pretty brutal and comparable to banking.

I've never heard anything about the rest to suggest hours deviate from the generic megafund hours I describe above (that includes Apollo). I've personally seen people from Apollo, Blackstone, KKR, Carlyle and Cerberus calling/e-mail at banker hours (i.e. 1AM on a Saturday night, 3 or 4 AM on a work night... when closing deals).

When you are closing a deal, yes. But how many deals do you think you can close as a pre-MBA associate? During the 2 year program, it's probably be around 0~2. Maybe 3. So most of the time, you will get out early (8~9pm) and no weekends. Exceptions: KKR, BX, Apollo (total sweatshop)

 
Mar 29, 2011 - 4:15pm

Marcus_Halberstram:
Closing a deal meaning going to committee, putting in final round bids, etc...

exactly. if you have a tight committee or bid deadline, then you can be at the office until 2-3 in the morning. otherwise, if you manage your time well, your hours shouldn't be killer at most funds, with some exceptions already mentioned.

i remember a time in banking when i received an email from a KKR associate at 2AM regarding a big deal we were working on. it was a saturday night (i.e., sunday morning) and I was at a bar. after that whole process, i was a lot less interested in getting a job at kkr.

the rumors about apollo are true. they run really lean and their junior guys get crushed. they also get paid a lot and do some really interesting stuff compared to junior people at other shops. it's a bit of a trade-off. probably a similar story at kkr.

 
Dec 26, 2017 - 9:31am

Normal hours is relative. I would expect to work at least 09am - 22pm at each of these shops. And i think the norm is rather until 12am or later.

1) If you are on a live deal, you work all around the clock. think that has been pretty much established on this forum.

2) When not on a live deal, there are teasers/CIMs flooding in from banks which have to be evaluated and I am certain that it is not the partner taking a look at these but the associate. The evaluation takes time.

3) On top of that, they have to keep up with what's happening with their portfolio companies, i.e. looking at financials, strategic projects, potential small add on acquisitions, participating in weekly/monthly calls with management to brain storm/etc.. If lucky, most of this takes place in the form of calls, but there sure is some traveling involved

I wouldnt expect light hours at the upper MM/MF shops and think getting out by 8pm is definitely a lie (except for maybe some Fridays). This for sure doesnt happen to many MM guys I know.

 
Dec 27, 2017 - 12:21pm

I'm at a small west coast based MM firm. In office hours aren't too bad, but I'm pretty much always working.

I probably start working around 7/8 each morning(either in office early or take the first call or two from home) might work in the office until 6/7 and then probably put another 2/3 hours in at home.

Weekends can be freed up if need be, but if we're working on a live deal then I'm pretty much expected to be on. I've taken 1-2 short vacations this year, but again I might have to take a few calls, send emails, etc depending on the timing.

My comp is also a little lower than usual MM PE comp. So basically I'm a "flexible" 60ish a week. It doesn't feel too bad and if I tell people I'm offline for a few hours, I can almost always take time when I need it. With that being said, with the exception of the bankers/big PE guys I know, I work harder than any of my peers who work at big companies, FP&A, Sales, Marketing, etc.

You could find MM to lower MM firms(~$500M AUM) that probably have decent lifestyles, but I don't think you could find any brand name MM fund thats going to have a great work/life balance. Your best bet would be to find a small firm if you're looking for balance and even then, you're still going to work.

 
Dec 27, 2017 - 4:30pm

Hours in pe are significantly better. Yes even large cap (incl the funds listed above as large cap; I have first and second hand knowledge). Btw most people show up after 9

 
Dec 27, 2017 - 5:23pm

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