Is anyone here getting street comp in places outside of NY/CA/MA/TX/NJ? I am starting to think if I ever want to make street, I will have to go to one of these places. I can confirm these pay ~50% less (some are IB, some PE):
http://gmbltd.com/
http://stcharlescapital.com/
http://rlholdings.com/home1.html
and glassdoor says these guys do not pay street: http://krgcapital.com/
And my guess is that these do not either:
http://www.platteriverventures.com/
http://crescendocp.com/
http://kslcapital.com/
People on WSO also talk about the benefits of joining a start-up / small PE firm. Benefits? Here they would probably pay you $40k +$5-10K bonus. Just a guess.
I am talking about the analyst/associate level. Any higher than that and the team usually has an out-sized experience level and I would guess the comp gets closer.
Is anyone here in a state like MN, MT, AZ, ND, CO, NV, or other mid-western state and have comp anywhere near what is talked about on WSO? I'm talking $120k-$200k+ all in
with 1-5 years experience.
I don't have any hard data for you and the only one I recognize is KSL, but I think this is right, sadly. I'd be curious what others have to say. Obviously there are small/mid-market PE funds in regional cities, but I see no reason they would be willing to offer the exorbitant packages you see in NY. You do not mention Chicago or Charlotte, however, and I wouldn't be surprised to see similar pay to NY in either city.
Not at one of the above, but I'll confirm that outside of NYC BB, pay is well below street. It's much easier to move around internally at these firms and if you're thinking on staying longer than 2/3 years it's a great place to grow. However, if you're looking for short term $$$ gains, use them as a springboard to more aggressive companies.
Funny you should write this, I was thinking of posting something similar and may still, but a bit more direct.
I work at a smaller middle market firm ($250-$400mm fund size / $350-650mm under mgmt) / 15-20 people / direct investing / in a midwest city. I came from BB M&A banking and took a decent pay cut, which has not been fun. However, I wanted to invest long term in this end of the market and had an opportunity to take a rare job near my hometown and 15 minutes away from family.
However, to your point, the pay is a bit painful. In the scheme of things, you still get paid well for your age. However, when you compare yourself it hurts. I will say, to UFOinsider's point above, if you are in it for the long haul the pay early can be overlooked. I can tell you, partners at a fund of this size can still do really damn well in good years. And, to further the point, I have never met anyone who pegged their wealth on what they made when they were 22-28 years old.
When you go to the lower end of the middle market in a non-core city (NY, Chicago, LA) you tend to get hosed a little with pay most of the time, period. I have plenty of friends who work for similar sized funds in Chicago and make 30% more than I. It does indeed sting.
Are you really making that much less? 120k in NYC after cost of living/taxes/ ect ect is much closer ot the midest guys making 60 - 70k then you think.
How is that off topic? It matters, unless your one of those guys who gets hard on for NYC.
I mean, just comparing Chicago to NYC (whereby the spread is MUCH lower than NYC vs MN/AZ or any of the other places you mentioned), $3000 gets you 2 bedroom on the 20th floor, all glass apt on streeterville (2 blocks off michigan) in a 2yr old high rise with a nice gym and all that jazz, vs a 30 yr old building apt on bleeker st in NYC....
pay is not the issue, its pay relative to everyone else in your town
I think all are off the mark to begin with. From my experience, given the facts I listed above, our pay is ~$100K-$120K at the associate level. To compare as a 2nd year in BB banking my total pay was $135K two years ago.
Peers I know at the lower end of the middle market range from $120K to $180K to start in Chicago for a $100-200mm fund to a $1 bn fund, respectively. Most that I know in Chicago start around $140-$170K. Lower middle market firms in Cleveland, Denver, Detroit, etc are typically in the $120-$140 range to start ($200-$500mm shops). This is what I know from peers who work at these places and / or know others who do. So, as you may guess, I do not work in any of those cities, but one similar to those Atlanta, Denver, Louisville, Charlotte, Dallas, etc. .
I would be curious what others think or know.
I would agree that these numbers are likely in the market in Chicago or Boston. I am surprised to hear that for Ohio and Penn. I doubt many/any of these firms would pay that much (not all PE but you get the idea):
http://www.caycon.com/arizona-venture-capital.php
First off, you can't really compare comp at boutique banks and PE funds. KRG and KSL won't hire you out of undergrad; they only hire kids with analyst experience at BBs/top MM firms, and they likely wouldn't consider you if you worked at either of the banks you linked. Secondly, I wouldn't trust anything that I read on glassdoor for PE comp.
Small, boutique banks definitely pay less than street, but most of the time their analysts aren't working 100+ hours either. Part of the trade off in small markets (looks like you are targeting Denver) is that you have a much better quality of life than you do in NYC, but you make less money. The BBs will still offer you better access to PE/HF jobs, but are those firms going to hire like they did in the past? A lot of those jobs are evaporating as well and working at a BB is no longer a guarantee for a pre-MBA PE job.
Finally, what is street and why does it matter? I understand that it is the all-in comp level at which BB analysts are paid, but can you forecast what street will be next year? The only thing that I know is that street from 2012 - 2017 will be much less than what street was in the preceding five years (although the hours will still be the same). Your trade off is likely going to become making $75-80k at a boutique or $100k at a BB. I'd prefer to work less and enjoy my life if the differential is that small (particularly when you figure in NYC cost of living).
I don't see the analyst experience ever going back to what it was in the past, and I certainly wouldn't have worked my ass off for the time that I did, if I wasn't going to get a fat bonus at the end of the year.
Some firms in Charlotte (namely BBs) pay considerably close to what they would pay up in NYC. Then again, they keep a lot of their higher level/higher paying positions in NYC while they keep their Corporate/BO down in NC.
Notably though, BofA has a pretty impressive trading floor down in Charlotte. Also Wells will be occupying Wachovia's old trading floor as well very soon.
This is wrong. BAML and WFS pay exactly the same as NYC in terms of base salary. Also, WFS already has all the fixed income stuff in CLT.
From what I have seen most regional small (200-500 AUM) PE's pay 65-80k base and ~50% bonus (depending on fund performance) for former I. Bankers with no PE experience.
I hope that when this question comes up 50 times over the next 12 months someone finds this response.
I really just wanted to get this discussion going so people working in small boutique IBs or anyone else looking to work for a small regional fund could have realistic expectations. I think the consensus is this:
Small regional IBs = $50-$55k with 25-50% bonus. Associate level all in $120k
Small regional PE 200 - 500 AUM =$80 - 130k all in. This is defined as firms most of you have not heard of. I.E. excludes KRG and KSL from the above discussion, as they likely pay closer to street. Exceptions of course exist.
Other already thoroughly discussed take-away: Pay relative to your location is important.
Left out: Pay at small regional HFs. My guess is that there are few analysts who make the $200k+ all in you hear about on WSO.
Thanks everyone for the input. I think this was a useful discussion.
this. WF, BAML, JEFF, even the boutiques like McColl/Sagent/Edgeview all pay street. The guys working their live like kings.
Oh. So what did I say that was wrong again? :p
purely out of curiosity (i am not based in the US) who else has big offices in Charlotte other than BoA and why?
Wells Fargo. Do not know why, but I would guess it has to do with original location.
Salaries/ Competition outside of NYC (Originally Posted: 12/29/2011)
I'm at a semi-target in DC and had a few questions concerning competition outside of NYC/major financial areas. Finance/International Business Majors, Economics minor.
I'm originally from outside of Pittsburgh. While I plan on applying to many positions in NYC, Boston, DC, Palo Alto, etc. Iam interested in a few regional companies in Pittsburgh such as PNC Bank 'Investment Banking' and BNY Mellon.
Other than, arguably Carnegie Mellon, would I have a better shot coming from a good school? My GPA will be in the low 3s (around 3.1 to 3.3). My major GPAs will both be 3.8+. Additionally, experience is on par, etc.
How do salaries/ hours compare? While Pittsburgh is not the most.. exciting city, I have about $50k in loans to take care of in a year or two before I move on. Economically, Pittsburgh is not a bad idea. There are networking opportunities with alumni from my school.
Does anyone have feedback on these kind of issues?
OP,
Two of the boutique banks listed pay ~$50k-$55k base. Bonus is highly volatile (but typically ranges from 25% to 75% of base). Regarding your confirmed numbers, I'm not sure where you got your underlying data, but I would say pay at those shops is north of 50%, especially given how BB bonus season played out.
Not sure about the PE shops.
$120k all-in is very achievable with 3-5 years of experience as an associate at the above banks.
OP,
Two of the boutique banks listed pay ~$50k-$55k base. Bonus is highly volatile (but typically ranges from 25% to 75% of base). Regarding your confirmed numbers, I'm not sure where you got your underlying data, but I would say pay at those shops is north of 50%, especially given how BB bonus season played out.
Not sure about the PE shops.
$120k all-in is very achievable with 3-5 years of experience as an associate at the above banks.[/quote]
Agreed, $120k all in after 3-5 years and as an associate is likely achievable at the above banks. This is ~50 -60% of street.
I would also add that this $120k is after 1) BB experience 2) experience somewhere else
This confirms this comment from INBall
I think all are off the mark to begin with. From my experience, given the facts I listed above, our pay is ~$100K-$120K at the associate level. To compare as a 2nd year in BB banking my total pay was $135K two years ago.
I would also add that this $120k is after 1) BB experience 2) experience somewhere else
Experience somewhere else correct, BB experience not at all.
I think PNC's Investment Banking Division is just Capital Markets groups - Harris Williams does all of their M&A I believe. So you may want to consider your priorities of Location vs. Type of Job.
Also, the payouts depend on firms and even upon yearly performance so it's hard to give a rough number. The more prestigious / competitive firms will pay at the same rate that wall street pays however, nothing is guaranteed.
I think you need to reevaluate your future career plans as they could possibly be wildly affected by your current want to save 20-30k/ year. I mean if you want to go into PE I don't think it would be too facetious in saying that PNC (Pitt) vs. Any IB (NYC) would be a lop-sided recruitment battle. I mean do you really want to sacrifice your future career so that you can pay off your student loans 2 years earlier?
To be honest, you should be paying the minimum amount due on your loans anyway until the principal is due. If you need me to explain why then you're not qualified to get any job in finance.
Agree with above, you should be looking at the best possible opportunity within IB if thats what you want to do and especially if you want to get into PE afterwards. Think about it this way....Harvard MBA is going to have a better chance of getting into a BB than a State School MBA.
At the risk of being told im an idiot who is not qualified to get any job in finance, why should we be paying the minimum amount due on our loans until the principal is due?
You risked it... and now I'm calling you an idiot
No... No, I was going to give you the answer but instead I'll let you put your mind to the test. Honestly, you must be kidding me - please tell me you want to work in PWM
They're just assuming the interest rate on your student loans is lower than what you could get by investing your money. Also, even if the spread there isn't anything substantial, you can deduct the interest you pay on student loans from your taxes.
I think that last part is true but I heard that is only the case if you make less than $70k a year. Might want to check into that.
Regards
First off, you can't really compare comp at boutique banks and PE funds. KRG and KSL won't hire you out of undergrad; they only hire kids with analyst experience at BBs/top MM firms, and they likely wouldn't consider you if you worked at either of the banks you linked. Secondly, I wouldn't trust anything that I read on glassdoor for PE comp.
http://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Employee-Review-KRG-Capital-RVW927783…
not just from the comp input, but from an employee. And regardless, I bet they and KSL kill you on pay.
Why does street matter? It does at the senior level.
My real concern is this: If these firms pay a "reasonable" all in of 70K for 1-5 years of experience, what is to hold them back from paying a "reasonable" all in of $140k at 40? We can speculate all day, but I bet I am right.
For all of the non-targets who cant work in a financial hub state, do not think that you will make anywhere near street even if you break in as the only associate at a PE firm, or as an analyst at a 20 person boutique.
BTW, Charlotte does not count as a like-AZ state.
I would also like to say that my W/L balance is absolutely top notch in a great mid-western state. I work an avg of 50 hour weeks, with the occasional 80 (distressed PE). I do not want to work at KKR and make 100k base and 100k bonus for 75 avg hour weeks. But I do feel like 100K all in should not be completely out of the question, but I would bet any (and know several) of the above named firms have a hard time getting there.
Associate Compensation Outside of NYC (Originally Posted: 02/25/2011)
I was curious about associate compensation outside of new york. How much different is the pay in Chicago, Houston, LA, etc...
If the compensation is close enough, it may make sense to pursue an MBA closer to a city where you could have more bang for your buck.
$500k in NY is prob $325 in Phoenix. But find me a firm that will pay that to anyone under 50.
What about 'prestige'? Anything less than IBD NYC and you might as well be a teller at Wells Fargo according to most here LOL
I'm not sure what you mean about KRG and KSL killing you on pay. I know people at each of these firms, and they are well compensated. I have no way to know exactly what the glassdoor poster from 3 years ago meant by below street. If they were referring to KKR as street, then no, these firms don't pay "street". They do pay in the standard range for upper middle market PE, and it is much higher than you might expect. They are competing for top analysts at BBs and therefore can't afford to be too far below market, regardless of location. $100k is generally well short of where you should be with 3-5 years of experience, even in a small market.
Worrying too much about comp at the start of your career isn't productive and should be secondary to the opportunity to build skills. By the time you are 40 in finance you should be in a position where your comp is directly correlated to your revenue generating abilities. If you are making 140k at that point, it's your own fault, regardless of what city or BB or boutique you work for.
I guess this guy figured that if you take your 'prestige' to the supermarket and see how many eggs you can buy with it you will be very disappointed from the answer...
(no, the answer isn't the entire supermarket)
What I have been told by associates, VPs, and MDs, is that the major banks all pay roughly the same levels regardless of location. In other words, working in Houston as an associate will let you live a much nicer lifestyle than in NYC. The drawback is this: once you go energy IBD in Houston, you are pretty much stuck there (what I was told by an ex Goldman VP who is now doing energy PE)
I would still rather start my career in NYC--from what I understand, it is easier to go from NYC than to NYC (someone please correct me if I am wrong).
Agree. I know of people at BB in Dallas/Houston and they make the same comp as the ones in NY.
Your growth might not be the same as NYC
if u aint in nyc u are in a backwater
This thread was just asking for a d-bag to comment, glad you showed up just in time boutique...
I will confirm the 50-55k base, as I received an offer.
Difference in comp at Regional BB's vs. Wall Street (Originally Posted: 11/02/2007)
I'm sure this question has been covered on this great forum previously, but I could not find it anywhere in the archives.
So I ask. What is the difference of pay at regional bb offices versus those on Wall Street?
Hard to say. It really depends on which city you look at. NY is obviously tops, follow shortly by LA, Houston, Chicago. I've heard differences of about 5-15K in bonus, but not 100% sure. Salary is the same regardless of location, though.
Anyone else care to chime in?
It depends on just how "regional" we're talking. There's a BB capital markets office (NOT retail or ops or anything like that, but a legitimate capital markets desk) in Atlanta where base is in the 40s and bonus is like 15k or something awful like that.
That's what I was afraid of...one of the BB's I was talking about is located in ATL we are probaly talking about the same place.
I was curious because if the salaries were the same but the bonus was a $10-$15k difference or so, the guy in ATL or Houston would be making the samething because of the vast difference in cost of living compared to being in NY or LA.
I wonder why more people aren't looking into this, who knows maybe they are.
Doesn't it matter which group we are talking about too. Some groups (regional) are tops at the firm and would pay higher compensation than NY.
I don't think the SF tech bulge brackets (GS/MS/CS) offer any less than New York.
The question is can you match my pay? At less then a year in?
No shot!
Haha, talking about my work pay, but still not likely.
By the time you are 40 in finance you should be in a position where your comp is directly correlated to your revenue generating abilities.
--
This is a very good point.
Out of all of the firms I mentioned KRG and KSL are the closest to street firms, so that makes sense. I will continue to argue that small shops have comparably poor comp most of the time.
Does anyone here work at a no-name and make anywhere near street?
Me
I will be making $80K in ER in an off-the-radar CA city first year out of undergrad for what it's worth.
Any reputable middle market PE firm ($300m - $2B fund) in non NYC/San Fran/LA/Boston cities should be paying $90 - $100K base with a 75% to 100% (or more) bonus target for all-in comp of $150K - $200K or more. This comes from several data points and from headhunter conversations. As you move down to the lower middle market and toward smaller cities, it is more volatile and total comp can be as low as $100K.
Thanks. This thread is specifically for those interested in lower middle market in smaller cities.
Whatever you want to call it. You asked "Is anyone here in a state like MN, MT, AZ, ND, CO, NV, or other mid-western state and have comp anywhere near what is talked about on WSO? I'm talking $120k-$200k+ all in with 1-5 years experience?" I can tell you for sure there are many people that are in their first year at a "lower" MM bank or working as a pre-MBA associate at a "lower" a MM PE fund that make $150-$200K in those states. Specifically I know people in MN that made $140K their first year out of college at a small investment banking office in Minneapolis. I also know more than one person making $150-$200k three years out of college at PE funds in both Minneapolis and Colorado, and not even at the biggest funds in those states, AND they have solid W/L balances. Just because you are outside of a big city doesn't mean you have to settle for significantly lower compensation.
Actually I appreciate all of the input. It seems that we are where we started -- some do, some don't.
Why would two funds of the same size pay differently simply because they're in different cities? Isn't a $500m fund in Detroit a $500m fund in NYC?
Assuming for sake of simplicity that half of the 2% management fee goes towards salaries and the other half goes towards other expenses (e.g. office space), you could actually make an argument that since Detroit has lower COL and thus lower other expenses, they're left with more $ for salaries. If Detroit collects the same $ amount in management fees but pays less than NYC, where does the difference go?
Discuss
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